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Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit vs. Fleet Patrol Escort
meimeitoo
Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
Now that shipyard Tier 3 ships are coming into purview, I was eagerly looking forward to the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, aka 'Fleet Defiant.' Yet, upon closer examination, it would seem the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit is hardly better than my Tier 1 Fleet Patrol Escort. Seriously. Let's look at a few things, shall we?
* Sure, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit has 5x tactical consoles, but the 'extra' comes at the expensive of an important engineering console (so it's really not all that 'extra' after all, is it? Merely a focus-shift).
* Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit has LESS shield & hull than the Fleet Patrol Escort (4,703 vs. 5,173; and 33,000 vs. 34,100 respectively).
* Fleet Patrol Escort has Universal Ensign station. Very important, IMHO (as it allows for a nice setup in which you can cycle 2x Tact Team 1, for one). Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit only has a fixed Tactical Ensign station in its stead.
* Both have the same 0.99 shield modifier, but the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit turns slightly faster (17 over 16).
So, there we have it: the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit is inferior to the Fleet Patrol Escort in almost every aspect. Yes, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit has 5x tactical consoles, but the lack of a 4th engineering console makes it harder to fit the Borg console, for one (thus reducing vital offensive stats); at least not without sacrificing armor mods, or an ever useful EPS console.
All of this is a bit bewildering, especially when you consider the extraordinary resources needed to get to shipyard Tier 3 (or extra-proportional, depending on your POV). So, in that light, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit is ridiculously overpriced and underpowered for what it should offer for a shipyard Tier 3 ship.
The question is of course: why?! My guess is that they never really thought the ship-progression thru very well. They took the first, and easy step: make Tier 1 fleet ships better than their non-fleet counterparts. Easy-peasy. Then they probably realized that continuing this line of thinking would make Tier 5 fleet ships absurdly OP. So, they decided to kinda 'fake' progression as of Tier 1: swap a few consoles here and there on the way up to Tier 5, but don't add anything substantial. Sleazy-peasy, that one.
I wonder how long it will take for people to catch on. As the man said: You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
I, for one, find myself disappointed in Cryptic (once again; sigh).
* Sure, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit has 5x tactical consoles, but the 'extra' comes at the expensive of an important engineering console (so it's really not all that 'extra' after all, is it? Merely a focus-shift).
* Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit has LESS shield & hull than the Fleet Patrol Escort (4,703 vs. 5,173; and 33,000 vs. 34,100 respectively).
* Fleet Patrol Escort has Universal Ensign station. Very important, IMHO (as it allows for a nice setup in which you can cycle 2x Tact Team 1, for one). Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit only has a fixed Tactical Ensign station in its stead.
* Both have the same 0.99 shield modifier, but the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit turns slightly faster (17 over 16).
So, there we have it: the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit is inferior to the Fleet Patrol Escort in almost every aspect. Yes, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit has 5x tactical consoles, but the lack of a 4th engineering console makes it harder to fit the Borg console, for one (thus reducing vital offensive stats); at least not without sacrificing armor mods, or an ever useful EPS console.
All of this is a bit bewildering, especially when you consider the extraordinary resources needed to get to shipyard Tier 3 (or extra-proportional, depending on your POV). So, in that light, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit is ridiculously overpriced and underpowered for what it should offer for a shipyard Tier 3 ship.
The question is of course: why?! My guess is that they never really thought the ship-progression thru very well. They took the first, and easy step: make Tier 1 fleet ships better than their non-fleet counterparts. Easy-peasy. Then they probably realized that continuing this line of thinking would make Tier 5 fleet ships absurdly OP. So, they decided to kinda 'fake' progression as of Tier 1: swap a few consoles here and there on the way up to Tier 5, but don't add anything substantial. Sleazy-peasy, that one.
I wonder how long it will take for people to catch on. As the man said: You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
I, for one, find myself disappointed in Cryptic (once again; sigh).
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
2) You're aware the Fleet Tac Retrofit can use the cloaking console from the regular Tac Retrofit, right?
3) You're aware that you can stick universal consoles like the Assimilated Module in any console slot, including that 5th tactical slot, right?
4) You're aware EVERY R/VA escort can easily do the 2x tac team thing, right?
What I think is funny is that you're whining about improvements to two of the most favored ships in the game while not saying a word about the craptacular Fleet Escort (Saber) or Fleet Aquarius, which ARE legitimately hilariously underpowered compared to even the RA escorts.
Now, whether or not these ships are a monetarily good deal to begin with is a whole different matter with plenty of threads ... at least in the case of the Fleet Tac Retrofit, a lot of people already own the Defiant-R so it's only another 500 Z/5m EC (at current rates). No such luck with the Fleet Patrol.
Matthew/Shiduri@zekesulastin
Yes the Fleet Patrol escort is slightly tankier, and gets a ensign universal, but most people will just use that for engineering anyway, so it wouldn't really matter if it wasn't universal.
Also the Defiant has no problem running 2x Tac team 1, and can use the third ensign slot for an extra torpedo or beam overload skill.
Yes, I did.
Not sure what it does for PvP. but for PvE it's pretty useless.
LOL. Brilliant move! Take the one true perk the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit really has, the 5x tactical consoles, and use it for a Borg console, again effectively giving you only 4 tactical consoles for weapons dmg (like the Fleet Patrol Escort), *still* leaving 1 engineering console wanting compared to the Fleet Patrol Escort.
You are aware that there exists such a thing as opportunity cost? I.e.: using up another station skill for Tact Team 1 means you can't use it for something else. It's like your example above, with the Borg console in a tactical station: it's not that you can't fit that console, but it goes as the expensive of something else.
I happened to read the thread about the Sabre -- and I simply agreed with it all.
5th tac console versus extra engi console. A 5th tac console dmg doesn't really add much due to diminishing returns....MAYBE 10%, unless you do 4 energy and 1 torpedo (since you HAVE to use torps on the fleet tac escort retro). Anyway it really doesn't outweigh an extra engi slot by that much. Engi slot lets you fit some useful universal, or something like that.
Turn rate. 1 turn rate? at 16 vs 17? whoopdey do! Once you are up that high, turn rate doesn't matter that much, fleet patrol turns just fine.
Boff setup. The defiant has the BAD 3x tac ensign slots setup, which FORCES you to use either a beam or a torp (lets face it, torp) to utilize that third tac ensign slot. As the highest DPS setup is 4x DHC, 3x turrets all energy weapons, the fleet defiant's purpose is rather confused. You have an extra tac slot, so you think it goes toward damage, but the boff setup doesn't let you use the best dmg weapon setup efficiently without wasting a tac ensign slot!
So in my opinion the fleet patrol escort IS the best escort out there at the moment. It is the only escort with synergy of purpose, best boff layout, decent stats, and 10 console slots.
- Demosthenes01101, from the REAL Star Trek Online forums!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
"You have been, and always shall be, my friend."
- Pointy-eared, green blooded, hobgoblin
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
- Sherlock Holmes
Depends on what you do. If you have a setup that relies (in part) on BO3, then recovering faster from the 'dip' is very useful (yes, it does not only transfer power faster). Apart from STF Elites, I find that having the EPS console is preferable over, say, a third neutronium. Ever done the starbase blockade where you have to go full impulse often to go from one place to the other? You will find that getting your weps power back up faster is a real boon in those cases.
Since I already paid $20 for a Defiant-R, the 7mil EC for 1 fleet module is a better bargain than $20 or its equivalent in dils or EC to buy a +1 console copy of the Patrol (Fleet) Escort that I already fly.
Among the many colossal TRIBBLE-ups regarding Fleet ship stats and pricing that PWE made with this, the Fleet Tactical really isn't among them for many people.
The second example is true, but the first is not. EPS will not help at all to recover from a beam overload drain, that gets reset at the end of the weapon cycle. Transfering between systems and recovering after full impulse is affected (because this is just a glorified transfer between systems)
- Demosthenes01101, from the REAL Star Trek Online forums!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
"You have been, and always shall be, my friend."
- Pointy-eared, green blooded, hobgoblin
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
- Sherlock Holmes
(ok now I really am starting to wonder if you have any idea what you're talking about, lol)
Matthew/Shiduri@zekesulastin
if you have the cloak of the defiant refit somewhere on your toon, buy the fleet tactical escort refit. Otherwise take the fleet patrol. or wait for the fleet heavy escort carrier (as a stand alone...the best escort for feds to buy, which means i'm not counting the bug)
and i'm really, really, really sure an EPS console does increase the recharge of weapon power after a Beam overload. only condition is, that you invested some points into the skill...since it is a % value. +70% of 0 is still 0, but +70% of 84 is something else.
Nope. To my surprise, really, many people do not know this; nonetheless it is true: EPS console helps you recover faster from sub-systems power dips too. You can easily verify that for yourself, of course.
Some people awkwardly see it as diminishing returns, which only *seems* to be the case, in that (in your example) you don't get the 26.2% of the current total each time; rather you simply get base + 26.2% each time -- sans a penalty.
On that note, I remain that it's silly to put anything other than 5x dmg consoles in your 5x tactical console slots: it's why you got the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit to start with.
Which skill any sane person has maxed out to begin with, I'd say.
STFs are large enough that you can still cloak on your way to your next target, giving a nice boost to your attack when you get within range of your target.
It isn't a diminishing return. It only seems like that because it does boosts the base damage of your weapon before modifiers, and not boost your modifiers. If your base damage is 100, 4x 26% boosters = 204; 5x 26% boosters = 230. One could also argue that there's not much point in using 4x damage boosters when the increase isn't all that much more than 3x damage boosters after modifiers.
I waste my ensign tactical slot. THY1, TS1, BO1, BFAW1 are nothing to write home about. I'd rather not slot it then bother with mediocre damage buffs and drop in DPS (as you would have to replace a DHC in a 4x DHC, as you mentioned).
Even without an ensign engineering officer, my Tactical Escort Retrofit can hold its own in a 1 on 1 or 5 on 5 dogfight.
Yes it's not a huge improvement over the other, but more damage is more damage, and that is what a tactical escort is all about IMO. Plus you have a cloak for alpha strikes, setting up your runs, dropping aggro from PvE or Players so you can get back in the fight on priority targets. The turn rate increase is always helpful and every bit is noticeable.
I do not find survivability to be an issue with the loss of a second engineering slot *shrug*. Perhaps I am just used to not having them. Yes two copies of EPTS would be nice, but certainly not necessary. I'd rather take the damage anyday, and between the Engineering and Science there is enough Damage Resistance and Spot heals through the BOFF abilities.
If I wanted to focus on more defensive style, I'd probably switch myself to a cruiser instead.
Just my 2 EC
All the Fleet version will do is give me an extra tactical console. For which I will just put in 4x Phaser Relays and a Torpedo console. Cloakiing Device and Assimilated Console go in the science slots, everything else for armor is in the engineering.
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EPS consoles are VERY useful. Especially when you run BO. The weapon power replenishes back much faster. It adds an extra damage per time interval since power gets back to 125 faster with EPS console. Doesn't matter if you pvp or pve, eps consoles are good. Not deal breaker if you don't use them, but it is an ever useful console indeed.
There are NO diminished returns for stacking energy consoles. The formula that calculates the damage is a little tricky, you just won't see a hefty amount of damage being added by the 5th tac console. But they do stack and there is nothing lost.
Agree with the tac ensign, it would be cool if they would make the ensign universal. Defiant lacks some heals that would make it a bit more sturdy. You need to fly it at very high speed to avoid taking too much damage, that in fact you don't have too many options to heal. You can still add some beam subsystem attacks or bo1 in that ens slot, so it's not useless (especially if you replace a turret with a beam in the rear), but would be more useful to be a universal.
Still, a decloaking defiant would be deadly. Even in PvE, you still get the decloack bonus damage.
I think Fleet MVAE would be the best. Followed closely by fleet patrol and defiant. Think how a VM can mess somebody up, or how a TSS3 can heal. TBH each has a slightly different playstyle, I see Defiant being a great alternative for Kerrat, mvam better for having a little sci touch (TBR, VM, TSS) and patrol being a little sturdier but still efficient in damage.
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But that's overall balance, at least now each of the first 5 fills a slightly different role.
Well, the JHAS obsoletes both the Defiant and the Hermes, but it's uncommon.
Glad someone agrees.
One of my major gripes was the lack of a universal ensign station. Now that I actually have the ship, I can say it's not all that bad living without it. Sure, instead of being able to run 2x EPtS convenienty, doing so with 1x EPtS + 1x TSS works reasonably well too. I have 1x quantum in fore, so now I get to use 2x torp high yields (III + I), using the ensign tact station. Together with my doffs to support that, I now get to use continuous CRF + continuous THY. So I think you actually *do* get something back for losing the ensign engineering (= universal) station.
5x tact consoles rules. The ship is indeed less sturdy -- the lack of continuously running EPtS causes this, is part; and, of course, simply having one less eng station.
Also, an incidental advantage of running 2x EPtS lies in having a purple Warp Core Engineer doff with the ability to give you a 20% chance of getting a +25 power levels boon (for each and every subsystem) on use of any 'emergency power' (like EPtS). 20% may not seem like much, but when running 2x EPtS continuously you'll find yourself pleasantly surprised with a whole lot of extra power, a lot of the time. It is, of course, possible to run 2x EPtS on the fleet defiant, but at the expensive of something useful like Engineering Team II. It may be, though, that just having Miracle worker III + Hazard emitters II suffices. Especially since you're also (presumably) running 2x Tact Team continuously, and Tact Team shares cooldown with Engineering Team (so the latter may not be always directly available to begin with). We'll see.
More at 11 (or a bit later, lol).