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The PVP Engineer Escort
heronfarm
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
In the recently trending thread Tactical Captain Buffs and Sci Powers there's been a few interesting comments regarding the humble PVP Engineer. The basic comments boil down to the underwhelming performance of Engineer Captains when stood next to their Science and Tactical kin.
As a player who plays an Engineer Captain as his main this has disturbed me, and I was wondering are Engineer Escort builds viable in a PVP setting or is their only real place behind a cruiser/science vessel throwing out heals, phaser procs and/or spam?
Speaking from an optimised perspective we all know the answer is, generally, the later. But if we had to, were forced to, how would we make an Engineer Escort work?
Here's my attempt, your feedback, alternative builds and advice would certainly be appreciated.
I'm using the Fleet Tactica Escort Retro, it comes with a 5th tactical console with which I'm trying to eek out as much damage potential as possible. Also with the shield remodulation and emergency heal that come as the Engineers unique abilities we should be able to cope with this more fragile escort.
Those not interested in the link above here's the BOF layout:
Comm Tac: TT1, CSV1, APO1, CRF3
Lt Com Tac: TT1, APB1, APO1
Ens Tac: IwishIwasDead
Lt Eng: EPS1, EPS2
Lt Sci: PH1, HE2
DOF Setup:
Energy Wep. Reduce cooldown of canon special attacks.
Conx2. Reduce cooldown of evasives.
Shield Distro. Shield heal on brace for impact.
Ship layout:
Fore Weapons: 4xDHC
Rear Weapons: 3xTurrets
Disruptors to help the real damage dealers (as well as yourself).
Deflector: Borg
Impluse: Borg
Shield: M.A.C.O
Tac Consoles: 5xDisruptor+
Eng Consoles: Neutronium, Borg, Theta
Sci Consoles: Field Genx2
For a more aggressive setup (for instance in a premade where you have a trusted healer) you could swap the borg deflector and engine with the omega to get the glider happening.
As a player who plays an Engineer Captain as his main this has disturbed me, and I was wondering are Engineer Escort builds viable in a PVP setting or is their only real place behind a cruiser/science vessel throwing out heals, phaser procs and/or spam?
Speaking from an optimised perspective we all know the answer is, generally, the later. But if we had to, were forced to, how would we make an Engineer Escort work?
Here's my attempt, your feedback, alternative builds and advice would certainly be appreciated.
I'm using the Fleet Tactica Escort Retro, it comes with a 5th tactical console with which I'm trying to eek out as much damage potential as possible. Also with the shield remodulation and emergency heal that come as the Engineers unique abilities we should be able to cope with this more fragile escort.
Those not interested in the link above here's the BOF layout:
Comm Tac: TT1, CSV1, APO1, CRF3
Lt Com Tac: TT1, APB1, APO1
Ens Tac: IwishIwasDead
Lt Eng: EPS1, EPS2
Lt Sci: PH1, HE2
DOF Setup:
Energy Wep. Reduce cooldown of canon special attacks.
Conx2. Reduce cooldown of evasives.
Shield Distro. Shield heal on brace for impact.
Ship layout:
Fore Weapons: 4xDHC
Rear Weapons: 3xTurrets
Disruptors to help the real damage dealers (as well as yourself).
Deflector: Borg
Impluse: Borg
Shield: M.A.C.O
Tac Consoles: 5xDisruptor+
Eng Consoles: Neutronium, Borg, Theta
Sci Consoles: Field Genx2
For a more aggressive setup (for instance in a premade where you have a trusted healer) you could swap the borg deflector and engine with the omega to get the glider happening.
Post edited by heronfarm on
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Comments
Unfortunately, disruptor is one of the weakest energy weapons IMO right now (and I have plenty as a kling), if it's not hard for you get phasers, lolarons or Tetryon. Of course, acc x3 is best, but acc x2 would also work. Lolarons are great if you are speced in flow capacitors, since that increases the drain. If you go this way, also you could replace the sci consoles with flow ones, to be even worse with drain. Try a turn console instead of theta and see if you like it, especially when fighting bug. Even though theta and cloack would work well together. I know some great escort pilots like cpt h use only eps1, the other eng is aux to id. That's called skill shield. Lol. Not lastly read Husanak's escort thread, I remember somewhere through the pages he mentioned an engi escort:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=255864
Well, that's what I would do/try, but what's most important is for you to like it.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Indeed hurleybird I know an Eng in a 'scort will never hit like a tactical captain, they just aren't optimised for it.
But here I go;
I never flew this combo, but I know how weapons and the Engi powers work.
EPS Transfer: Useless for a Escort with Cannons, the DPS increase in this scenario is almost negligable. Suppose it could be handy in a few other scenarios.
Nadion Inversion: Almost just as useless.
The only scenario for damage output I could think of these abilities to be 'somewhat' useful is by using Beam Overloads.
But these abilities are far more effective when using a full broadsiding beam escort/cruiser in terms of increasing your DPS, this is simply because of beam arrays have a different way of handling the power drain (Which has far more penalty than if you would use a full cannon/turret build) and also the 125 cap works a tad different here, hence why EPS is viable in such scenarios
So you already have 2 abilities that are only 10, perhaps 20% of their total potential on a cannon scort. For the rest you can tank a bit better with RSF, and miracle worker is quite ok as well.
But all in all, Engi's in an escort is nothing more than saying to your team that they should figure it out yourself and I simply go on the tanking tour and doing ****ty damage. Sure they do nice 'Damage per second', but not much more then a sci, if any.
Where a sci scort still has some viable functions which could actually have some purpose for a team, Subnuke, Superscan, etc. A engi escort simple throws the hat in the ring and being selfish. Sure, im sure you have killed alot of players with an engi scort in your life, pugging around, and im sure its nice when you are solo'ing and pugging all the time.
The reason why an engi in a cruiser is mostly considered a decent thing to do it because by being an engi in a Cruiser you have slightly more Captain Ability heals/resist in reserve where you can dedicate more of your Bridge officer ability heals to external factors (Your teamplayers perhaps?) Unless you are a selfish 2x EptS3/RSPx2 tank i'd say no class is suitable for your cruiser but oh well.
All in all, Tac in a scort is 1000 times more useful for anyone, your team players, and your opponents by killing them 1000 times as fast :P
Really though, if you dont care about anything, i suppose even a Tactical in a Starcruiser could work
It's not only that, but in a team setting an engscort is less tanky than a sciscort or a tacscort, and makes your entire team easier to kill overall.
This is very counter-intuitive, so let me explain.
In PvP you must realize that nothing exists in isolation -- you need to look at the broader picture. Compared to a tacscort or a sciscort you are going to be at best half as deadly. All those survivability skills only come in handy when the enemy is shooting at you, but are worthless when they are focusing on your team mates. If they can kill a couple of your team mates, then they can kill you quite easily despite your captain abilities.
One thing people new to PvP, or even old PvPers that don't fight in premades have trouble understanding is that survivability is strongly related to doing damage and controlling the initiative of the battle. The more on edge you keep your opponents the less effective they are going to be at coordinating their offensive capabilities, the harder it becomes for them to coherently deal spike damage along with debuffs at the appropriate time and place. The ultimate defensive coup is getting a kill -- until that player returns the enemy is down 1/5 of their capability and is far more focused on survival than getting kills. Sciscorts in particular can be incredibly defensive, because they have an easy time lining up subnukes on other escorts. It might not show the scoreboard, but nuking a player like MT, Blackjack, or hammel when they have their APA and GDF up is worth at least half team's healing capability, and far more than that in initiative -- your team isn't going to be nearly as active offensively when you are desperately trying to save a teammate from a coordinated strike after all.
To put it simply an engscort screws your team comp. There's no way to effectively build around one. Your team either can't do enough damage, or you can't do enough healing and cc, or both. There are captain/ship combinations that are questionable, but engscort is the only combination that is completely irrelevant in PvP.
Eng in carriers work just fine. Even more so if you have the recluse. :cool:
^^^This!!!
But anyway... Let me try to theory Craft a Build:
Power Preset: 25/75/25/75
Fore Weapons:
3x MKXI [ACCx2] [DMG]Quantum Torpedo Launchers
1x MKXII [ACC x3] Phaser Beam Array
Aft Weapons:
1x MKXII [ACC x3] Phaser Beam Array
??
Comm Tac: TT-I | THY-II, BTS-III, APO-III
Lt Com Tac: TT-I | THY-II | BTS-III
Ens Tac: TS-I
Lt Eng: EPS1, EPS2
Lt Sci: JTS-I, HE2
How I would use my Engineering Abilities: EPS, I?d send to another player on my team, Probably another Escort. RSF would help during my Alpha Strike Approach runs. Miracle Worker is like my RSP that I?m missing on this build.
I?d invest skill points into Flow Capacitors and I?d even equip two flow capacitors to help with the shield drain.
Umm? yeah, this build is kind of fail but meh. If it is all I had to work with that is what I?d do.
Which sums up the problem nicely. There is room for ONE eng on any team.
And with A proper eng/healer you get nothing done in PvE or when pugging. No wonder engs take to escort, at least I get something done solo.
Eng need an overhaul. There cpt abilities suck. And since we now have team batteries, so the whole team can have 4x125 energy anyways even eps is useless. While the number of tac or sci on any given team is negotionable. Bringing more then one eng is pointless. We need viable options for all classes to field more then one member of a 5 player team.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Team batteries should just be disabled in PvP, period. Ditto for jevonite.
by Captain Horizon
first, i would like to say that there really is no place for an engie escort in this game. engies have absolutely no tac buffs or target debuffs that allow it to do meaningful spike damage. this being the escort's primary role in battle...... therefore you just about nullify any potential you may get out of an escort, by piloting it with an engineer captain. i just really like flying escorts, so i always search for some way to use my engie (Dr. Rick Marshall) in an escort that is somewhat team oriented, and is 100% piloted as a tac escort's wingman. (and its still not as effective as sci-scort in that role i don't think... but maybe...)
ship: Armitage (Akira skin if your cool)
spec into torp weapons and defense/agility/powerxfer
loadout:
1 phaser array ACCx3, 3 Quantum torps ACCx3 fore
1 phaser array ACCx3, 2 Quantum torps ACCx3 rear
borg engine, borg deflector, maco shields
1 nutronium, borg console, (3rd is a toss up..eps if you switch powers a lot, neutronium for defense ect ect....)
2 shield cap++
4 quantum torp ++
nothing in the hangar, because escorts don't use pets.
TT1
TT1, TSP2
TSP1, APD1, APO1, APO3
EPTS1, EPTS2, ES2
HE1, TSS2
doffs: 2 purple projectile, 3 BFI shield distro hax
piloting:
run high shields and aux rotate tac teams and omegas on yourself, along with 2 copies of EPTS keeps you pretty solid. and if not, you have RSF and EF and MW to save you, along with your BFI doff hax.
that leaves ES, HE1, TSS2, APD for your buddy. but that is also the big minus to this thought pattern...1 hull heal. you'd like to have an aux2sif in there, but you'd have to give up EPTS2 for that.... which is an easy enough switch...especially if you are good at switching power level focuses.
you keep him alive, and rain omega buffed quantum spreads at everything he points at. along with a sci/sci that is heal heavy and timely with the nuke.....things can happen....
anywho.....its still not an engineer cruiser. i'd say thats the engineer's home. but i totally get trying to max damage as an engineer. ships are so tanky anyways....might as well do something different.
edit: i also carry boffs that have target engines 1,2 in there....hence the beam arrays....also, i like just nabbing a random phaser proc.....you could easily do without...or use turrets to keep a ping...
have fun kill bad guys
No feelings hurt, if anything this thread helps warn people of the pit falls behind certain builds and perhaps helps to bring a little bit of focus on the plight of eng captains.
I'll probably fall back to a dedicated support cruiser again. More likely though I'll just start playing my tac and sci alts a lot more and try to forget about that lass in the gold uniform.
Take the best of both worlds: when doing arenas, or playing in a premade, jump in your ody (or whatever cruiser you have and like). When doing c&h, Kerrat, random puging, use escort. All those advices are great, interesting build Cpt h btw, but most important is for you to like it, it's a damn game after all. Also if you haven't done it already, roll a tac on kdf and put him in a cruiser, it's a frigging awesome experience, lol. I specifically recommend fleet vorcha and bortasqu. More tac consoles, more damage than fed cruisers... And pretty much that's about it since escorts and sci for kdf suck, but well, that's another topic, lol.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Try using Aegis Deflector/Shields. The Jem'Hadar Engines or the Borg ones if you're a "Set" kind of person.
Engineering slots you can try Neuotronium X2 and a Monotonium or vice versa depending on what the ratio-ness of shield to hull squishyness you retain.
Ditch the Theta... Ability consoles are, by and far, considered as an inexperienced person's console choice. (in PvP)
In your Science slots I'd recommend a Shield point buff one (Field generator?) and your Assimilated Module.
Not sure how the Tactical, energy-type consoles stack regarding diminishing returns past 4. If it's a rubbish % you could always try the weapon-type console for the 5th and see if it nets you a better return.
As for your weapons. Although Dual Heavy Cannons are the most energy efficient weapons in the game, their recharge cycle shares itself with that of your rear turrets as well. I'd recommend ditching a fore DHC in place of a Photon/Quantum launcher to diminish your cyclic weapon drain. Also, it gives you a viable option to fill that stupid, lone, ensign tactical slot with THY1.
Hope it helps or at least gets you thinking.
-Jeremy
Engineers get only a subpar self-heal from Miracle Worker and Nadeon Inversion, which is easily nullified by Siphon Drones, Plasmonic Leech and other energy draining abilities. RSF can be interrupted or stripped by broken SNB Doffs.
PvP in it's current state, honestly, if you want to pilot an escort as and Engineer, I'd suggest going with a Torp/Mine build and just hitting them with guerilla tactics. Otherwise, you're only real option is a Carrier or Oddy and just be a damage soaker while trying to heal your allies.
The bottom line is this.
PvP is about spike damage (TAC) + window of opportunity (SCI) + the speed at which support is at hand (ENG/ SCI).
Put an ENG in a escort is not a good team dynamic because you are sacrificing all your strengths for 60 - 75% strength of an TAC in an escort.
The reverse is the same for an TAC in a cruiser. The TAC may get the numbers, but half of what his full potential is in an escort, and he just cannot match the defensive capability of a engineer in a cruiser support role.
A tactical in the right cruiser can be real nasty so i disagree about no tacs in cruisers....
Hi Naz! Never said they couldn't but, can I maybe convince you that TAC in an escort better serves it full potential in terms of spike damage?
And to get those same results in a cruiser the TAC must forego the role of what the cruiser's strengths are.
MVAE
Weapons:
3 x Lulzarized Disrupt0rs, 1 x DBB
3 x turrets
Skills:
TT, C:RF1, BO3, AP:O3
TT, C:RF1
EPtS1, EPtS2
HE1, TSS2, ES2 (is there an Energy Siphon 3 at Lt. Com.? IDK)
Two things to note:
a) You are unkillable in this ship. Seriously there's no excuse for dying (that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to pop, though... if I do it, it's all intentional)
b) With a Deflector DOff proc, you will have ES up every fifteen seconds.
For one thing, so long as you have at least one target neither your shields nor your weapons will never drop below 125 the whole game, and your engines and aux won't be much lower. When you have EPS up (use it before you BO3) your power levels will all be at 125 for at least fifteen seconds. You'll hit hard and tank better than the turtliest of cruisers.
Sadly the ES debuff component is easily cleared by Hazards, but it's not a big deal.
If you want to have a lot of fun, and who doesn't, feel free to give her a spin. Just make sure you credit the Grand Poobah Shimmerless when you rock the damage/healing charts come end game.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Fore: 2x dhc, 1xDBB, 1x quantum
Back: 3x turret
I prefer using disruptors because the proc is usefull for the impacting torpedos.
Cmdr tac: BO1, APD1, APO1, APO3
Lt tac: HY1, BO2
Ens tac: HY1
Lt eng: EptE/A, EptS
LtCmdr sci: TSS1, HE2, ST3
Purple Doffs: 2x development lab scientists, 2x damage engineer, 1x ?? (torpedo, shield distro, evasive conn)
Because the engineer has some self heals/resist, he can give away his sci based heals. Especially science team 3 can be used every 15 seconds with the 2 lab scientists; and it can clear those nasty SNBs. The engineers EPS/nadion is good to reduce energy drain from BO. With the 2 damage control engineers you have almost 100% uptime of shield and aux/engine power.
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
Boy, Its Trekkie humor saying this build is not from this planet.
So durable, team heals and high dps.
I present to you the chimera vet reward engscort (or the klingon version). It is based on drunk's suggestion using 2x aux to battery....It may be even more powerfull with tacticans or scientists, but the engineer has a good option now.
Front: 2x dhc, 1x cannon, 1x DBB
Back: 3x turret
Borg engine and deflector, maco shield
Cmdr tac: TT1, BO2, CSV2, APO3
LtCmdr eng: EptA1, AtoB1, EptS3
Lt eng: ET1, AtoB1
Lt Sci: TSS1, HE2
Eng Sci: PH1
Purple doffs: 3x technician, 2x shield distro
Bind Ph1, AtoB, EptX, BO, CSV. With 2x AtoB, everything is reduced to global cooldown. You only need 1 copy of each ability. Its sick. Everything is always up. With EptS3, you have strong shields. TSS, HE you can use to heal your team. TT1 and ET1 are more to use on demand on yourself or teamie. Your EPS, Nadeon are to boost dps and resist. And miracle worker and BFI are your "oh TRIBBLE, do I really have to use these" buttons.
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
I mean, come on. My Science toon wants some bangbang.
Come on everybody, get some bangbang for your toon too.
R.I.P
Premade Fed vs Fed matches doesn't interest me so not really sure but I suspect what earlier posters said to be true, tac or sci escorts would be better in those settings.
I think the good eng escort player I ran into a few times was Diazen or Daizen or something like that, but not many else out there.
I just wanted to say thanks for this build! I've been flying an Odyssey for a while, and got tired of the slow turn rate, so I figured I'd try my Chimera out. I wasn't really happy with it until I found this, and it is great! It also led me to finally use the spacebar bind, and basically the whole thing is just fantastic.
It's not quite as durable as my Ody, but it still manages to be pretty darn survivable. Plus, it's WAY more fun to fly around than the ol' boat. The nice thing about it, from my perspective, is that it's not as fast turning as regular escorts, but it's still a huge improvement (having flown cruisers or science ships basically my whole STO career, I know from experience that trying something like a Defiant is hard to do, what with the speed and lining up itty bitty firing arcs).
Edit: I should note that I PvP on the ground, so I use this build for PvE and can't tell you how it performs in real PvP. But it's still awesome!
EPS gives plenty of energy already.
Miracle worker is nothing more than an oh-**** button.
It should be the current amount of heal to self, and half that amount healed on all team mates.
More drain resistance, sure why not. Seams like a good way to give Engineer some energy only damage ability, not directly but affecting the ships systems, seams Engineer like to me.
Rotate isn't ment as a heal really, it's a resistance buff for the most part.
Again making it useable on self and ally would make the ability much better.
More bonus from Engineering Fleet, sure why not.
It seams to be the weakest of the bunch at the moment.
Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples