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unbalance in fighters for carriers in the fed and kdf shipyards
johnacher
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
lately since the federation got carriers ship ive notice that the ones the feds can buy for energy credits dont stack up to the ones that the kdf can buy for the same or even for dilithium and here is why.
In the federation shipyard when u go to by fighters for your carrier you have the choice of buying with energy credits or dilithium. Now if you buy with energy credit you will get green fights and if you buy with dilithium you will get blue fighers.
Now if u go over to the Klingon side and do the same u will get blue fighters for energy credits that equal the stats for the blue figther bought with dilithium on the federation side or if you buy with dilithium on the kdf side u will get purple ones that are better than anything the federation can get at this time which gives the kdf a really unfair oneup on the federation in pvp or even pve content
In the federation shipyard when u go to by fighters for your carrier you have the choice of buying with energy credits or dilithium. Now if you buy with energy credit you will get green fights and if you buy with dilithium you will get blue fighers.
Now if u go over to the Klingon side and do the same u will get blue fighters for energy credits that equal the stats for the blue figther bought with dilithium on the federation side or if you buy with dilithium on the kdf side u will get purple ones that are better than anything the federation can get at this time which gives the kdf a really unfair oneup on the federation in pvp or even pve content
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Then, the FEDs only got fighters and carriers because people were whining all the time. It was never meant to be this way and even if they developed fighters on their own, the KDF would still be better at it.
Now, the FEDs got cheap-TRIBBLE fighters so they can go "zoom zoom" with their little toy-ships as well but of course these are worse than the KDF counterpart. It's just the KDF's thing to use fighters, not FED's.
Bottom line: Countering KDFs fighters with FED fighters was a stupid concept to begin with. You don't counter the "special unit" of your enemy by developing an inferior version of it by yourself but with skills YOU excel in. Are FED fighters useless compared to KDF's? Yes, maybe. But that's only logical. You were told that from the beginning
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The existance of Federation fighter squadrons was made canon both in TNG and Deep Space 9.
Your argument that this game shouldn't even have anything like this is made invalid. If anything, it's the KDF who shouldn't have anything like this, because they don't have anything like it in the series.
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
This has been discussed to death, I don't want to continue that. Just the short facts: Yes, there are fighters in Star Trek. Bajorans for example have them, Remans have them, maybe even Starfleet (Mars defense against the borg cube?). But these are all meant for planetary defense duty, not space-combat. The peregrine everyone thinks about is a civilian vessel converted by the maquis to fight cardassians in the demilitarized zone. In the dominon war (DS9, sacrifice of angels blah) the federation adapted this tactic and sacrificed the "fighter squadrons" in an moment of despair to provoke the enemy. They didn't prove to be of any worth. And if you examine the "combat philosophy" of the franchise, you could come to the conclusion that fighters are really as efficient as rowing boats in the battle of trafalgar, at least if used in the classical "dogfight" fashion. I'd be fine with warped-in hit-and-run manneuvers but oh well. No, I don't want another fighter-discussion XD
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Funny thing is, you're whining over a color.
KDF pets purchased via energy credits used to be green. One patch the devs for some unfathomable reason changed it to blue color...without changing the stats at all.
My VoQuv has the green color pets still and their stats are identical to the blues sold at the NPC.
He is quite correct in this statement.
From the July 19th release notes:
"Updated small craft and pets:
NPC small crafts and Carrier Pets, not Frigate Pets, will now proc less often with their energy weapons.
Removed Duplicate Phaser Array from Fed Runabout Carrier Pet.
Changed the Quality Color of all Carrier pets.
All were increased by one
Uncommon/Green became Rare/Blue, Rare/Blue became Very-Rare/Purple, and Very-Rare/Purple became new Fleet-Ultra-Rare/Ultra-Violet.
This is just a change in display color, not in actual effectiveness.
Energy Credit costs will now return to their previous costs for those carrier pets available for EC."
See what happens when you miss staff meetings?
And see what happens when you complain about something before doing a little fact checking first?
KBF CO
We are the Dead
join date Aug 2008
There are no definitive details of the peregrine. We do know there is a civilian/courier version, but we do not know that to be the base model rather than the other way around.
It is like saying that the Humvees used by the military have the same lack of armor and armament as those sold to civilians.
The 'lack of effectiveness' of the fighters is similarly speculative. We do not get Cardassian damage reports, and the fighters were sent in completely unsupported rather than as part of a proper combined arms operation. Even so, we do see hull damage on at least one of the passes, so they did have sufficient armament to get through enemy shields.
In short, you seem to be concluding that since they didn't win the battle solely on fighter power (completely setting aside the fact they were vastly outnumbered), that therefore fighters are useless. You also completely ignore the fact the KDF had no fighters there at all, which based on your logic suggests their fighters must be even more useless.....
I don't care if it is not canon. Neither are half the ships in here. Or Player run star bases.
You want to talk canon then I suggest you lose most of your VA ships.
Kyle
"Prior to 2370 these ships were civilian Federation support couriers not used by Starfleet. (DS9: "The Maquis, Part II"; TNG: "Preemptive Strike")" see http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_attack_fighter.
It is stated on-screen. I don't say there is no use for peregrines, just that it doesn't make sense to send them into open space battles. Let them warp in, strike and disable a single target and let them jump out again or use them for covert ops, but just not as "fighters" in the sense every other sci-fi universe uses them. I don't want to hijack the thread, but we see on-screen that the dominion doesn't take their attack seriously and that it doesn't inflict much damage. The ruse doesn't even work but is compromised by Dukat. And just think: Star Trek Battleships almost all have 360 degree directed energy weapons with continious fire. Shuttlecraft and fighters aren't really a threat here. Combat just works different in Star Trek.
Regarding the KDF fighters: You are right, they don't exist. But I was talking gameplay-wise, since for this game they have been invented for the KDF to employ unique tactics. See my next quote.
But why does it have to be "perfectly fair"? The only thing which could still make this game interesting is diversity. The KDF had unique "fighters" to employ a different strategy than FEDs. They had cloaks. But no Science sjips, weaker hulls and shields etc. Ten people started whining and everything is "balanced" - do players these days lack creativity that much that they can't use and counter unique strategies but need everything reduced to "blue ship vs red ship"?
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If you read the entire article, you will also find this:
In short, we know there is a peregrine class courier, but much of the rest is supposition. We don't even know that the Federation don't use them as couriers, only that they are in civilian use in that role.
It seems a lot more likely that the Maquis got access to civilian models than military models. As I pointed out with the Humvee, there are many RL examples of vehicles that are used by both, and the civilian models are considerably stripped down in comparison to the military variants, sufficient for them to make a distinction on screen.
If a humvee is in a traffic accident, or even if it is used by rebel troops somewhere, just saying it is a humvee is usually sufficient.
I think you need to re-watch sacrifice of angels. The fighter wings took negligible casualties, when you consider they were flying unsupported against vastly superior numbers of much larger enemy vessels
It doesn't have to be perfectly fair. However, regardless of whether you thought it made sense or whether you personally thought them effective or not, the Federation did use fighter craft on screen. Courier base or not, those ships were fitted with weapons and employed as dedicated fighters. They could have armed regular shuttles in a similar role, but did not... presumably because they would not have been as well suited to the duty, despite being military utility shuttles capable of being fitted for such duty.
And if you'd followed your own smarta** advice, you'd have noticed that the Fed fighters didn't get the change in color, that was mentioned in the patch notes and that someone might get the idea that they're in fact not of the same quality.
@johnarcher:
They are of different colours, because the patch only seemed to have effected KDF pets and not the ones on Fed side. Qualitywise the green ones of Fed side are en par with the blue ones the KDF gets.
The indicator you want to be looking for is in the name. The better ones usually have 'advanced' or 'reinforced' in front of their name.
no white or green pets exist.
so make the only existing pets now blue+ purple. big rofl from me.
No. You Feddies have snatched enough of the KDF's uniqueness. Make do with your own capabilities, like the KDF does, instead of 'nicely asking' for everything that makes the KDF ships unique.
Personally I think that frigate carriers should be a completely separate class from fighter carriers. Regardless, there is no canon examples of those on either side, so unique KDF is just fine, IMO.
Kyle
Feds have Shuttles (Can't count the Marauding Force KDF gets as its worse than even the Type-10)
KDF have Frigates/BoPs
I'm up for Feds getting Frigates, but you really only have one ship it would make sense on. Atrox Frigates would be cool, but you won't get Armitage Frigates sadly. As the Orion Marauder only has one hangar bay and doesn't get a Frigate. What would define a Frigate would be that only one ship can launch them IMO. Much like the Kar'fi gets its Frigates and the Voq has BoPs, a Tholian Frigate would be cool as well.
Now, I am perfectly willing to discuss the Feds getting frigate-class pets that are not purely damage oriented, to maintain some factional flavor; for example, make the Fed frigate a support ship with 2 beam arrays and a photon tube, no tactical abilities, and several engineering abilities that it uses on the team. KDF gets more damage with BOPs and High Yield salvoes, Feds get more survivability with free Extend Shields and engineer teams. I'm okay with Fed carriers doing less raw damage as long as they get a similarly powerful way to contribute.
This is PVE, by the way. I don't care what PVPers think.
I'm not against Feds getting Frigates personally, I'm against half-carriers getting frigates. What I mean by "half-carriers" is carriers with only one hangar bay. This would include the Orion Marauder, Fleet Corsair, Armitage, and Fleet Armitage. If the Feds were to get a full blown "Federation" carrier other than the Atrox. I would be on board with a "Frigate" for the ship, as I'm not against a Caitian based frigate for the Atrox.
I agree with the idea of the federation frigates being more support as opposed to DPS favored like the KDF. Possibly the Atrox Carrier frigates could have shield based heals like a TTS and an Extend. While the other carrier frigate could be more hull based HE and AtSIF. Granted each on of this Frigates would meet the same restrictions the KDF ones have.
Meaning the Atrox Frigate can only be launched from an Atrox Carrier and so on.
Kyle
no they are not they come in handy in STF's like cure space they are more targets for borg
ther are better fighters coming out there is a fleet version in tier 5
It's worth pointing out that Feds can also own a Tholian Recluse, which is the road by which I entered this conversation.
I'm sorry, but I don't get what you are trying to say. The paragraph you quoted just says that the studio set from shuttles had been re-used for the peregrine. And the second part says that it is indeed not entirely sure wether the peregrine is the fighter or not but that the maquis used civilian couriers which look exactly like the peregrines we see later. That Starfleet didn't use those peregrines is stated in TNG already.
This is right, however there is no hard evidence for a military version of the peregrine prior to the sacrifice, never ever mentioned nor used. If any small craft, Starfleet exclusively used shuttlecraft of different configuration. They actually just discovered (by the reactions of kira and odo) the military use of these couriers.
Also keep in mind they were ignored on purpose. And considering that, they lost quite a few craft during their unengaged fly-by. They were ment to be a nuisance, not a threat. Besides, there is also the debate that Starfleet wouldn't send pilots in combat in small craft that vulnerable and that each and every ship on screen never needed support from small craft. The Dominon used "fighters" first (which are really more corvette-like ships) and even those were only a real pain because they crashed directly into enemy vessels during their kamikaze-manneuvers. Bottom line: Yes there are small craft. There are also rowboats on board of ships-of-the-lines. But it's not much sense to use them in direct encounters. They have their purpose but not as portrayed in this game. Let alone having carriers while each and every small shuttle has warp-traveling capability.
The fairness-argument was purely directed at this game and the fact that the factions SHOULD play differently, but they really don't (anymore). Because the KDF had cloak, FEDs whined and also wanted cloak. Why? Because. Then they gave carriers and fithers to the KDF. FEDs whined and also wanted them. Why? Because. People are only happy if they have everything the other side has DESPITE the fact that you can simply play and enjoy BOTH sides. And that's something I don't get
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No. I'm a fed carrier pilot and I don't want this. If I want to fly frigates I play my KDF character. We have runabouts, which are already better than any puny frigate. This is the kind of difference I'd like to keep between the two factions, since KDF will likely get tractor beam pets if we get frigates.
That's a fair deal, we have very annoying tractor beam pets and they have frigates, and I can tell you that the deal is in the Feds favor here.
If you want a frigate, feel free to create a KDF char, BoPs are free there. Why are you moaning for something you can already have in game?
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Kyle
i don't think the KDF frigates get anything like the tractors the runabout(deltas?) have. I'm wondering about the survivability of those against the KDF frigates
Kyle
I'd like to see that. Not that canon matters much when it comes to game balance, but I'd like to see that, because at no point do I remember there being fighters in either series.
I think players who play Feds got those things simply because Cryptic saw an opportunity to make quick revenue.
To suggest that "whining" had anything to do with it, just isn't inaccurate.
If Cryptic didn't think they'd make money off of these things, Fed players wouldn't have them either, of that you can be sure.
KDF players have been getting equally worked up, LEGITIMATELY for things they haven't gotten.
My point? It's all profit related and Cryptic/Perfect World's steering the ship here.
Insulting other players because they happen to benefit from Cryptic's ill conceived policies, has always struck me as being just plain wrong.
I understand that in the game, one faction is at war with one another, but let's not get too carried away here.
I play both factions myself.
We're all just players here.