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sub nuc change idea.
matteo716maikai
Member Posts: 823
sub nuc is an excellent debuff, but the problem is its nearly useless by itself against anyone who knows how to play in a premade setting, my proposed change will benifit both the hardcore crowd and the light weight crowd.
my proposal to sub nuc becomming a commander bridge officer power solves a couple of things, namely that having ascience captain on your team would only be useful for the snb. this change cant be done though until bridge officer powers are buffed/resists adjusted.
it can still only be used at its best in science ships, it would be variable depending on the teir you take.
teir 1 would remove 1-2 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 5-15 aux dependant seconds. cleared by sci team. lt commander ability.
teir 2 would remove 2-4 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 15-25 aux dependant seconds. cleared by science team. commander ability.
teir 3 would remove 4-6 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 25-35 aux dependant seconds seconds, cleared by sci team. commander ability.
now when i say clears a buff i mean all of a single buff type. if you have 5 hazzard emitters and hazzard emitters are cleared, then all 5 are removed.
sub nuc beam would be a deflector ability that shares a global cooldown with probes. so you cant vm and sub nuc at the same time. would also be resistable by the skill tree. the duration and the number of buff removes can both be resisted.
if this would be too much of a change then maybe have snb be a spreadable virus like iso charge is.
snb- hits up to 4 targets, first target randomly looses up to 8 buffs, second. up to 6 buffs, third up to 4 buffs, 4th up to 2 buffs. it would no longer have the power delayer power though.
would be able to be resisted by an appropriate skill tree spot. (this plan isnt as well thought out as my changing it to a bridge officer power)
my proposal to sub nuc becomming a commander bridge officer power solves a couple of things, namely that having ascience captain on your team would only be useful for the snb. this change cant be done though until bridge officer powers are buffed/resists adjusted.
it can still only be used at its best in science ships, it would be variable depending on the teir you take.
teir 1 would remove 1-2 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 5-15 aux dependant seconds. cleared by sci team. lt commander ability.
teir 2 would remove 2-4 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 15-25 aux dependant seconds. cleared by science team. commander ability.
teir 3 would remove 4-6 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 25-35 aux dependant seconds seconds, cleared by sci team. commander ability.
now when i say clears a buff i mean all of a single buff type. if you have 5 hazzard emitters and hazzard emitters are cleared, then all 5 are removed.
sub nuc beam would be a deflector ability that shares a global cooldown with probes. so you cant vm and sub nuc at the same time. would also be resistable by the skill tree. the duration and the number of buff removes can both be resisted.
if this would be too much of a change then maybe have snb be a spreadable virus like iso charge is.
snb- hits up to 4 targets, first target randomly looses up to 8 buffs, second. up to 6 buffs, third up to 4 buffs, 4th up to 2 buffs. it would no longer have the power delayer power though.
would be able to be resisted by an appropriate skill tree spot. (this plan isnt as well thought out as my changing it to a bridge officer power)
Post edited by matteo716maikai on
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ideally the science captain would then recieve a self sci skill tree boosting power.
an ability that can be used every 2.5-3 mins that give like +200 to +300 points into offensive science skill tree for 30 seconds.
SNB can stay where it is, and with the changes that you or myself otherwise provided, would still be fielded for more than just SNB. If anything really, removing the Dispel effect from Sci captains is really kind of a nerf, not a buff.
I -do- feel that there needs to be a curse/debuff in the sci captain tree in addition to the Dispel that SNB is. So you could probably change scattering field to reduce enemy healing effectiveness, or SDR, like you proposed.
Let the other abilities provide Boost and or Debuff, leave the Dispel in.
Besides, would you want me having Bo3, and a cmdr level Dispel, and TBR2 on my fleet nova? I sure wouldn't not if I were on the other end of it anyway
Actually that would make a tac sci much more attractive I think.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
ideally this wouldnt be a change by itself. the entire science tree would need to be redone etc etc.
and if it gets replaced by a science ability that boosts all science powers then science captains have a place again.
another idea then maybe have snb chain like the iso charge, and each target it hits looses fewer buffs then one before it.
1. Nerf it to remove up to the first 5 powers up going from right to left on the players buff tray notice I said right to left. This way any rsp or tt etc.. they put up can still be removed. Most odf the time this is the reason for the player being nuked. We don't want snb to be totally useless now do we!
2. Make the duration only last 15 seconds on snb. The power recharge time being affected by aux power can remain. Possibly buff this part of snb in this particular nerf scenario.
3. Not effect weapon's firing recharge times at all.
4. Not effect fireworks cooldown! : )
A heinous tragedy, I say!
If that sounds unbalanced then we can always nerf them a bit
SNB/s failing in premades isn't because the buff is useless, but the timing is off. However, with the state of the game, I don't see the proposed change providing any benefit. More so, the clear is SCI team which ... well ***muffled***
And your idea only really benefits feds so useless. Moving on.
Then again I guess you guys would really love to see all the KDF gone. It's obvious PWE does... BLUE HUD anyone! Bops/fail-scorts/no-sci ships except lock boxes and carriers... R3t@rd3d /// j/s
Let's get back to ideas that actually improve PVP before we focus on stupid TRIBBLE that would force the ******* @ PWE to make a change that will just **** the game beyond repair.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Remove the slow-effect from SNB, making it strictly buff-clearing, and reduce the CD a bit.
Add the slow-effect to the damage resist field (?used to be damp field, don't remember current name..
I didnt even read it all, but it seems to sound good.
I always vouched for Subnuke having to require full aux and full skilling rather then what it is now. Weapons need to be used and full weapons as well for the full effect.
And you are also right, ever good pvper knows how to play their opponent with their subnuke, in a 1v1 a sci will always have the disadvantage if the opponent knows how to play it.
1st: Its one of those abilities that do not require anything but a single button click. No matter on full aux or low aux the most important aspect of subnuke is that it stips off your buffs. The cooldown effect is of way less relevance. Neither does it require any skill tree points to make it more effective, where other tactical/engineering captain abilities of the same kind (APA, RSF) do require those matters for their optimal effect. (full shield power, full weapon power)
2nd: A player who is experienced utilizes it to its full potential, while noobs basically subnuke you without you having buffed up any of your valued abilities. (Subnuking while u only have a EptS up or what)
Furthermore you can anticipate a subnuke fairly easy, and its just waiting until you receive the subnuke before you buff yourself up with your more important stuff, simply sci team yourself and ur done. Especially in a 1v1 situation the Tac/Engi can basically play the Sci opponent, having more advantage over him, then he does you.
As for SNB. You pointed out MT that it only requires a button click but your 2nd point clearly states that there is more to it. Yes you dont have to run at full aux but is that a problem? In fact a SNB is a fairly powerful tool in skilled hands while more or less worthless without experience.
Now isnt that in a way how it should be?
I like to play my sci but I admit about half of the time my SNB is a failure. So I just have to get better at it, get more experience and most important learn to coordinate with a tac burst of my team. It offers some great rewards properly timed and motivates teamplay. I dont know about you but that is what I like in a game. No simple we just assist and he will die because there is not enough heal. No you have to think and coordinate in STO.
The system might be far from perfect but I am honestly sick of games that try to get rid of healing/support because it would force teamplay. Many games these days just fell like they have a built in child safety. In Guild Wars 2 you have like on slot for a heal skill. Every char has this one slot and its your only slot for a heal. Everyone has to carry exactly one heal, no more, no less. Such restrictions prevent completely fail builds but they severely limit your options. Why are there no true healers? I suppose they are just too strong in coordinated teams or would require you to have friends.
I love STO because there are so many options, so many things to try and it really rewards teamplay. What you can do with a well coordinated group is amazing and you can get enough gear to be competitive in about a week.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
I would love for my main Eng to fly a healboola with SNB cmr sci.... finally something usefull in that slot. Not a good idea to up sci cpt, imv
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
How about my idea of just splitting the "slow-down" effect from SNB, and then reducing the SNB CD?
The "slowing" effect could then be added to another sci captain ability, like scatter field, or a sci boff ability, like E Siphon or Jam target. (modified in strength and duration not to be OP)
I m not feeling very creative today, but i like part of your idea, namely making the "slow-down" having a greater uptime. that being said, i don't think that turning cpt powers into BO powers will do us any good.
I would first give all cpt powers a balance pass vis-a-vis each other. make sure that the benefits to the native role are appropriate and that differences in SP investments make sense. Engies still need more love then Sci if you ask me
Next we look at Sci BO powers and the skill tree
then we see if sci ships need anything on top
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Oh, yeah, that Mai is always trying to nerf science, you nailed that one.
On topic, wouldn't this just lead to tacs having access to sub-nuke? My tac Kar'fi would be the greatest thing since replicated bread with access to sub-nuke plus lt. com and lt. tac slots left over. Plus as a boff power it would be an Aux2Batt fueled cd.
I personally would gleefully welcome such a buff to my favorite build. But honestly, I want more than anything a full science shakedown with related skill tree adjustments before tinkering with captain abilities gets started.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Balance 1v1 aspect is often underrated though, alot think its absolutely no way to balance anything in the game, but the basic thing is that is the same as 1v1 with a good and bad player, or a 5v5 with 5 good and 5 bad players.
Not always, but often a 1v1 shows exactly what is more powerful then something else of the same rank/class/level. (Captain ability, Bridge officer ability, a console)
How simple is it to compare a Armor console with a pay2win console? fairly simple imo. How easy is it to show how doffs are effective in a 1v1, very interesting all.
IMO 1v1 is often the best way to actually create a basis for balancing/tweaking alot of aspects in the game.
Another example, a siphon carrier in a 1v1 is no different then a 5 man siphon carrier team vs 5 normal guys. The outcome is generally the same, draw or lose. (assuming the siphon team has no noobs in it, regardless of the non-siphon team)
Sure i understand its not all about 1v1, but its a damn well good basis. And I've done enough of them to know that.
Still though if you would say that any class can basically play the subnuke of the opponent in a 1v1 basis it shows that Science has a weakness in a 1v1 situation, and again the subnuke is so much stronger in a 5v5 with good coordination to prove YOUR point. So yes, that might be the thing that is so different in the 1v1 and 5v5's, and perhaps abilities should be made more to complement all these situations rather then just one of them.
For the subnuke aspect I just think that because its such an easy tool to use even in the right hands, it should require a tad more then just a single button click. The aux powerlevel should imo decide how much buffs are stripped off, same for skilling up with points in the skilltree. Sounds like a nerf to sci? Dunno, a tier 1/2 skill shouldnt be too much to ask. If they ever buff up the science bridge officer abilities again its all good imo.
Also Holoships could get a bit of a buff imo, seems pretty useless except for the phaserprocs.
Ugh I dont know. I hardly play sci myself, i know exacly how to play it simply because i fought against so many. This is one of these aspects in PvP that might require changes, I dont know. Ill let you guys continue the debate.
Now if you took a midgard pac healer in that game... well no way he would kill anything. No offensive abilities at all, weak buffs and a pitiful auto attack. He was a very good healer and king of cc but than again, in this game EVERYTHING interrupted casts. Dmg hell even many debuffs prevented you from casting, just 1 dmg during your animation... and nothing. So no way to really heal yourself or cast your cc in a 1v1 unless you used instant spells which had a cooldown of several minutes.
So yes one of the most important classes that was actually fun to play totally sucked in 1v1. Another thing if you were fighting any full tank as shaman... well you simply win because you could run faster and kite them to death.
Not all chars were useful in groups, not all chars were useful in 1v1. There were 3 factions with different classes and the 8v8 battles were the most entertaining I ever fought. Long, lots of teamplay, lots of tactic, powerful heal, even more powerful cc,... *sigh*
Ok back to STO. I still feel that in a team game 1v1 doesnt have to be balanced and if a class is important for a team I dont really care if it viable in a 1v1. But that is just my personal opinion.
PS I just returned from a drinking night so I do apologize for any mistakes or spelling errors.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
I think that even this change would probably cause big problems in premade situations.
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