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New to PvP. Any Advice?

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  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Now children, let's play nice. It is just a video game afterall. Let's try to keep the insults and attitude out of this thread and stick to helping me learn how to PvP ;)

    So in that regard, I'd like to discuss why my choice of [DMG]x2 modifier is a bad one. Essentially, I chose this modifier because of the low Tetryon base damage. The bonus damage that criticals give will be less on Tetryons than any other weapon and when you start multiplying a smaller number by the same percentage as a larger base number, the difference in damage output of critical hits between Tetryon weapons and other weapons becomes exponential. In this respect, Tetryons would be the worst weapon type to increase anything that has to do with critical chance or critical damage.

    Admittedly, I didn't crunch the numbers, so I very well could be wrong about choosing [DMG]x2. By choosing it, I figured I would increase my overall continuous damage output to be more equal to other weapon types, while letting my torpedoes do most of the critical spike damage. I also hoped that in the small window between when my enemy's shields are down and my torpedoes hit, I would be able to do the highest amount of continuous hull damage rather than relying on low-percentage criticals to hit. This should effectively soften up the target slightly more, which will give torpedoes a better chance to kill.

    Now, I could possibly afford to switch weapon modifier types (although not console types), but I want to be absolutely convinced that my reasoning is flawed and that a better modifier would increase my damage. Truthfully though, one of the reasons I chose [DMG]x2 over [ACC]x2 was due to the price difference. The [ACC]x2 were nearly twice as expensive so it would probably take all of my resources to switch to those.

    Another thing to consider is that overall Phased Tetryon weapons have 1 less modifier than regular energy types. Does this make the choice of modifiers less important and thus [ACC]x2 less worthwhile/valuable than using a weapon with [ACC]x3?
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited August 2012
    skurf wrote: »
    Now children, let's play nice. It is just a video game afterall. Let's try to keep the insults and attitude out of this thread and stick to helping me learn how to PvP ;)

    So in that regard, I'd like to discuss why my choice of [DMG]x2 modifier is a bad one. Essentially, I chose this modifier because of the low Tetryon base damage. The bonus damage that criticals give will be less on Tetryons than any other weapon and when you start multiplying a smaller number by the same percentage as a larger base number, the difference in damage output of critical hits between Tetryon weapons and other weapons becomes exponential. In this aspect, Tetryons would be the worst weapon type to increase anything that has to do with critical chance or critical damage.

    Admittedly, I didn't crunch the numbers, so I very well could be wrong about choosing [DMG]x2. By choosing it, I figured I would increase my overall continuous damage output to be more equal to other weapon types, while letting my torpedoes do most of the critical spike damage. I also hoped that in the small window between when my enemy's shields are down and my torpedoes hit, I would be able to do the highest amount of continuous damage rather than relying on low-percentage criticals to hit. This should effectively soften up the target slightly more, which will give torpedoes a better chance to kill.

    Now, I could possibly afford to switch weapon modifier types (although not console types), but I want to be absolutely convinced that my reasoning is flawed and that a better modifier would increase my damage. Truthfully though, one of the reasons I chose [DMG]x2 over [ACC]x2 was due to the price difference. The [ACC]x2 were nearly twice as expensive so it would probably take all of my resources to switch to those.

    Another thing to consider is that overall Phased Tetryon weapons have 1 less modifier than regular energy types. Does this make the choice of modifiers less important and thus [ACC]x2 less worthwhile/valuable than using a weapon with [ACC]x3?

    tetryon weapons do the same base damage as all the other weapon types. where have you experienced otherwise?

    and no, acc is always the best mod for any weapon, unless you are a tac then crtD and crtH become viable depending on your piloting style and loadout. dmg, is ALWAYS the least beneficial mod.

    also, with everyone and their gammie numnums running 2 tac teams, landing torps on hull is quite possibly one of the hardest things to do in the game right now.

    and yes, acc mod weapons are the highest priced. they are better. have you ever been shopping before? for anything? if you can't tell that a benz is a far better engineered car than a chevy based on price tag alone....well....

    and yes, the trade off on the 1 modifier for the phased tets is a close call. but if i can buff my tet damage through consoles and still get a random phaser proc....well....again....

    and please, stop putting so much effort into this thought process. if you have maco or omega gear you could have blue markX weapons and be just fine.

    the piloting is the cake sir, most of the rest..... just icing.

    have fun kill bad guys
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    ...or keep the attitude. That's cool too. Sorry, I didn't realize I was thinking too hard. I'll just take you at your word without wanting any reasoning whatsoever and take your completely out-of-context car metaphor as the hard truth for all things in life.
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited August 2012
    skurf wrote: »
    ...or keep the attitude. That's cool too. Sorry, I didn't realize I was thinking too hard. I'll just take you at your word without wanting any reasoning whatsoever and take your completely out-of-context car metaphor as the hard truth for all things in life.

    whats the deal with you people?

    what attitude? some of you have the thinnest skin. you have tons of great advice in this thread to read already. and pages upon pages of other topics that are quite extensive on this topic itself alone.

    this guy, sophie, gives horrible advice. some of us have taken upon ourselves to correct this behavior when we can. sorry ive offended you somehow.

    i responded to your post on the first day. go back and read it.

    and no, you may not be thinking too hard. but on the wrong side of the coin, maybe. like i said, i run on mkX blue weapons on a few toons, and with crappy mods...and do perfectly fine because i focus on piloting. there is no gear "i win" button or best setup, it really depends on you, the player.

    and the car metaphor was actually right on point. things that are more expensive are most of the time worth the money. you said it yourself, you looked, and they are much more expensive than the other weapons. how was this at all out of context?

    okay, how bout this one: you are at the ford dealer.......and you test drive the fiesta, then the mustang........
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    whats the deal with you people?

    what attitude? some of you have the thinnest skin. you have tons of great advice in this thread to read already. and pages upon pages of other topics that are quite extensive on this topic itself alone.

    this guy, sophie, gives horrible advice. some of us have taken upon ourselves to correct this behavior when we can. sorry ive offended you somehow.

    i responded to your post on the first day. go back and read it.

    and no, you may not be thinking too hard. but on the wrong side of the coin, maybe. like i said, i run on mkX blue weapons on a few toons, and with crappy mods...and do perfectly fine because i focus on piloting. there is no gear "i win" button or best setup, it really depends on you, the player.

    and the car metaphor was actually right on point. things that are more expensive are most of the time worth the money. you said it yourself, you looked, and they are much more expensive than the other weapons. how was this at all out of context?

    okay, how bout this one: you are at the ford dealer.......and you test drive the fiesta, then the mustang........

    I find it hard to believe that gear is as unimportant as you make it out to be. Even though I'm new to PvP I'd be willing to bet I'd score higher in a PvP match and could take you out in a 1v1 against one of your blue mkX toons. Hit me up on STO and we can test it out - Entarra Adu@DevolvedOne. Although, since you know my gear, you'd probably just get all Tetryon resist consoles and lol all day :x

    As for your analogy, it is out of context because we are dealing with a market that can be easily manipulated by someone or someones that have enough EC. As such, prices may not reflect the true relative value of an item. Are [ACC]x3 weapons really worth twice as much or are people buying them when they become available at lower prices and reposting them at higher prices (or just holding on to them) in order to inflate their value? It's also based on the assumption that the random number generator Cryptic created works perfectly and there are always the same number of each type of item dropping. Then there's the fact that certain types of weapons can be crafted and thus the supply of them will be higher than something that you can't craft.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    To be fair mav... the one exception to the 3 dhc or better rule... is sort of what he was planning to do with the KHG bonus. For the amount of extra dmg you get from the KGH. (its equal to 3 torp dmg units) its like his bug would have a 8 tac console setup.

    The thing is if you are going to bother with torps AT ALL imo you HAVE to commit to them. No silly one launcher in front eating your dps... go all in and run 2 so you can keep the torp rapid fire going... I did this with a goomba for a good while and honestly my dmg was much higher, and more important my KILLS where much higher then they where in a full cannon setup....
    On my feds 2 torps works on most ships but I did hate it on my bug... it felt much weaker then just going cannons... that KHG set is the torpedo holy grail... if I ever get a second bug for my klink or the KHG set ever gets some cross faction love I will be running 2 DHC on that ship. :)

    This is a little off-topic and I don't want to detract from the OP's questions, but have you ever tried two torps on a BO BoP? I'm having a little more success with the whole 2 x DHC, 1 x Quantum and 1 x DBB setup, but the DHCs are mostly there for appearances/knocking off shield slivers/chasing stragglers. I'd go two torps (I run two-piece KHG and take Torp Spread III) and shell out for the proper DOffs if I thought it'd be worth it.
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    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    To Skurf:

    You're really overthinking the mods/energy types badly. Pick an energy type (go with your favorite color if you like), try for at least one [Acc] if you can and roll with it. It's just not that big of a deal in the end, and especially not at the point where you're asking us for basic build help.
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    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    As much as I appreciate your fascination with a more interesting personality than yourself, would you please focus your attention in the discussion not on people, but on arguments.

    From my tests with an Advanced Escort, I can say: Transphasics are good in theory, but only in an environment where nobody expects them. As soon as the target has at least 1 Monotanium console (or two to three Neutronium), the effectively remaining something like 30% of original dps are just healed away by a combination of Hazard Emitters, the Borg proc and native crew repair. Even if it is buffed to close to 5000 dpv (and with projectile weapons doffs, that almost equals dps) with a combination of transphasic compressors, partial KHG and partial Breen set, that means just 1500 dps to hull. You'll need more than 20 seconds for an unbuffed escort hull to defeat it without it applying any heals... and which hull is unbuffed, anyway. 20 seconds, during which the targetted escort might just toast your ship with DHC/turret fire, taking down your shields and your hull.

    And what's more, that damage you do with transphasics is usually from you alone... your team mates will not really benefit from the damage you do, as they still have to take down the target's shields to do damage, too. Unless they also are transphasics torpedo ships, at which point you will see people switching to even more hull heals and armor quite quickly.

    Adv. Escort is a bad boat for a bleedthrough/torp build
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    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited August 2012
    okay man, good luck in the game.

    @CaptainHorizon

    maybe we'll see each other on the field someday.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,589 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    skurf wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that gear is as unimportant as you make it out to be. Even though I'm new to PvP I'd be willing to bet I'd score higher in a PvP match and could take you out in a 1v1 against one of your blue mkX toons. Hit me up on STO and we can test it out - Entarra Adu@DevolvedOne. Although, since you know my gear, you'd probably just get all Tetryon resist consoles and lol all day :x

    As for your analogy, it is out of context because we are dealing with a market that can be easily manipulated by someone or someones that have enough EC. As such, prices may not reflect the true relative value of an item. Are [ACC]x3 weapons really worth twice as much or are people buying them when they become available at lower prices and reposting them at higher prices (or just holding on to them) in order to inflate their value? It's also based on the assumption that the random number generator Cryptic created works perfectly and there are always the same number of each type of item dropping. Then there's the fact that certain types of weapons can be crafted and thus the supply of them will be higher than something that you can't craft.

    LMAO

    Horizon is correct gear is really not that important in this game... and frankly as a new pvper Horizon would eat you up with white weapons.... this game is very much NOT about gear... and he is correct 9 times out of 10 ACC is the best mod and is priced that way cause they are the most valued go figure. I gave you the alt built that would benifit the most from crth cause I assumed you didn't have 20 mil floating around to buy weapons... yes if you have been playing for 2 years and have 900 mil in the bank acc is slightly better in most cases and people run them..... now please don't cope the Sophie attitude in your first forum post... You may not know the regular faces but to break it down easily for you
    Horizon = one of the top escort pilots in the game
    Mav = one of the best all around thinkers and players in the game
    They both gave you some good advice.
    Have fun.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just want want to know why things are the way they are. Horizon's suggestion may be entirely 100% correct, but he explains nothing. He just says ACC is the best, DMG is the worst, and that's it. I guess I just got a bit annoyed when he talked condescendingly to me about ACC being more expensive so it's obviously better and I let it show through my post. In the end, he explained nothing. I could take him at his word, and I would probably be better off for it, but I would have learned nothing. You can tell someone 5x5=25 and they'll know what 5x5 equals, but if you don't explain why, then they'll never know what 6x6 is.

    Also, Horizon mentioned a few posts back that nobody should be running more than 1 or 2 Neutroniums? Why is that and what should I be using instead?
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    skurf wrote: »
    Also, Horizon mentioned a few posts back that nobody should be running more than 1 or 2 Neutroniums? Why is that and what should I be using instead?

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3598732&postcount=4
    For Armor Consoles (as the primary example of where the 'appearance' of diminishing returns appears), the formula used to determine the final resistance value is: 1 - (100/(100 + Resist value)). The Resist value is the total, combined value of all the sources of damage resistance on your ship. Thus, for example, if you have a single +35 armor console, you will have about a 25.9% resistance against that energy type... if you are a Cruiser running 4 of the same +35 armor consoles, your damage resistance improves to 58.3% (so, adding three consoles only slightly more than doubled your final resistance), thus, you have the 'appearance' of diminishing returns, but, each source of resistance IS adding its full value to the formula that determines your final value.
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    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    mavairo wrote: »
    Boy do I have something to show you later about phasics husanak :)

    You'll **** your pants.

    Try being put down to 30 or lower at the end of someone's first pass. Without your shields ever going down. 4 torp consoles, for phasics, with doffs is OMFG amazing.

    Throw on the KHG and you'll be killin people with it.

    Double phasic is the only way to go if you are going double barrel.
    It's ludicrous. Hell I'll even go log in to show ya if you wanna see. :)
    I didn't think that specific torp consoles stacked? I've heard that from multiple sources. Were they wrong or is that some bug that they've fixed?

    husanakx wrote: »
    ...
    Horizon = one of the top escort pilots in the game
    Mav = one of the best all around thinkers and players in the game
    They both gave you some good advice.
    Have fun.
    So then, who is right between you, Mav, and Horizon when you all disagree. You say go for hull smashers like photons and quantums for when shields are down. Mav says go double transphasics and forget about the shields. And Horizon says torpedoes aren't worth it even with the Honor Guard set, in which case that set is completely worthless and I guess I should start trying for the Omega set to get the Tetryon Glider.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,589 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Read the posts I posted about tanking again so you can understand what ACC does.

    Every ship in the game gets a defense valuie... if you read those posts I linked over... you can see how they work... speed and buffs will increase or decrees this number. ACC off sets this value... so assume your target has 60 defense... and you have 10 acc from the accurate trait and 20 acc from your weapons.... you can now see they will have 30 defense against your attacks this will effect Crit Rate... CrtD and Hit rate to a degree... People like ACC cause it offsets defense values which people will try to keep high to increase there tank. Escorts mainly tank with speed... by constanly keeping there own defense value very high. Again read my posts I linked for you... read the speed lesson that will show you how your buffs and speed effect your own defense. Then you can understand more how it works. Things like attack pattern delta and beta, fire on my mark, sensor scans, effect this defense number.
    There are ways to boost it and there are ways to degrade it. In a short nut shell its why people like ACC mods, in pve the NPCS don't boost there own defense numbers.... in pvp real players do and ACC is much more important.

    CritH is liked my some tactical players because there main attack skill boosts CrtH and CrtD... some perscribe to my theory that a tactical can push there crit rate with crth weapons up to 15-17%, and at that point the laws of probability mean you can kill someone very nicely even if you miss a couple times.

    CrtD is favored by some who like the extra burst... there is many thoughts on CrtD myself I don't care for it.... the 20% is applied to the crit dmg only in my tests and I don't think 10% bonus dmg on 5-12% of your hits is worth it but some see it other ways.

    DMG is pretty much universily seen as bad... the base dmg is not increased enough to trade the real value of the other 3 options.

    Phased Tets... Trade one Mod for a Free Phaser or Tet proc depending how you look at it... and IMO that is pretty much to good to pass up.

    As to the armour question... read over my leason on defense... and use your ship tab to see what happens when you slot more then one armour. They have diminishing returns... so 1 is very good... 2 is nice... and 3+ starts to be a massive opportunity cost for the small increase in resist.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,589 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    skurf wrote: »
    I didn't think that specific torp consoles stacked? I've heard that from multiple sources. Were they wrong or is that some bug that they've fixed?

    So then, who is right between you, Mav, and Horizon when you all disagree. You say go for hull smashers like photons and quantums for when shields are down. Mav says go double transphasics and forget about the shields. And Horizon says torpedoes aren't worth it even with the Honor Guard set, in which case that set is completely worthless and I guess I should start trying for the Omega set to get the Tetryon Glider.

    All tac units stack... no diminishing returns.

    Frankly we are ALL right. This game like any other, and like any sport... you must do what works for you. Yes I have flown a dual torp hull smasher and it can suit my style if I choose to fly that way when I wish... and yes it works well. Horizon is right timing torps can be a B... and all cannons for many people is the best way to provide sustained high dmg consistant like... mav is also right if you do it right Phasics work....

    Honestly try what everyone suggests and find out what works for YOU. When you find something you like tweek it... try your own torp or lack of torp combo... do what works for you in the end and spend your days tweeking... like everyone else does. ;)
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I was about to post something along the lines of what Husanak just posted but oh well.

    It's true, though, pretty much all of what's been posted has just been different approaches to playing the game. Almost everyone here gives advice and contributes their builds on good faith because they know it's worked for them. You can try everything already offered on the cheap, you really aren't straitjacketed into anything (I don't think one day goes by where I don't fundamentally change something about some ship on my chars... yeah I have a main who's solid at this point but the rest get gutted like fish lol)

    Playing Klinkside for a while I'll say that I doubt I'd ever run torps on a Fedscort. If you're playing KDF though, you can give it a try. Torps are very difficult to use at the minute and I wouldn't say they're for beginners but ultimately you want to do what's most comfortable for yourself so knock yourself out.
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    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited August 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    Read the posts I posted about tanking again so you can understand what ACC does.

    Every ship in the game gets a defense valuie... if you read those posts I linked over... you can see how they work... speed and buffs will increase or decrees this number. ACC off sets this value... so assume your target has 60 defense... and you have 10 acc from the accurate trait and 20 acc from your weapons.... you can now see they will have 30 defense against your attacks this will effect Crit Rate... CrtD and Hit rate to a degree... People like ACC cause it offsets defense values which people will try to keep high to increase there tank. Escorts mainly tank with speed... by constanly keeping there own defense value very high. Again read my posts I linked for you... read the speed lesson that will show you how your buffs and speed effect your own defense. Then you can understand more how it works. Things like attack pattern delta and beta, fire on my mark, sensor scans, effect this defense number.
    There are ways to boost it and there are ways to degrade it. In a short nut shell its why people like ACC mods, in pve the NPCS don't boost there own defense numbers.... in pvp real players do and ACC is much more important.

    CritH is liked my some tactical players because there main attack skill boosts CrtH and CrtD... some perscribe to my theory that a tactical can push there crit rate with crth weapons up to 15-17%, and at that point the laws of probability mean you can kill someone very nicely even if you miss a couple times.

    CrtD is favored by some who like the extra burst... there is many thoughts on CrtD myself I don't care for it.... the 20% is applied to the crit dmg only in my tests and I don't think 10% bonus dmg on 5-12% of your hits is worth it but some see it other ways.

    DMG is pretty much universily seen as bad... the base dmg is not increased enough to trade the real value of the other 3 options.

    Phased Tets... Trade one Mod for a Free Phaser or Tet proc depending how you look at it... and IMO that is pretty much to good to pass up.

    As to the armour question... read over my leason on defense... and use your ship tab to see what happens when you slot more then one armour. They have diminishing returns... so 1 is very good... 2 is nice... and 3+ starts to be a massive opportunity cost for the small increase in resist.

    this should be charged for the next time its communicated in such a manner.

    i hope you all are taking notes.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Yes, that was a very good explanation. Thank you Husanak :)
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited August 2012
    in the end,

    its all about having fun, and killing bad guys.

    use what works, and never stop trying to figure out what works better.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Diminishing returns, however, do not mean that more than one armor console will not do you any good. With a fully-specced-in-armor captain, I can get Damage resistance as high as 40% with three neutronium, and 33% with two. Those 7% do make a difference in some situations (and that's not even counting the countereffect to Sensor Analysis and the like that they naturally have).

    Sensor Analysis is a flat damage buff, I'm assuming you're confusing it with Sensor Scan. Sensor Scan is aux-buffable to the point where it can potentially debuff you beyond anything you can add with consoles... the difference between one or two consoles when it comes to debuffs (of which there are only two common ones) is almost meaningless, the only real difference is between having one and none at all.

    If you're that terrified of being shot at, it's more efficient to just run one diburnium, one parametallic and one of the tetra-resist consoles (ablative I think). Now you have better defences against the most common energy types and good defences against the rest.
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    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Uhm... no. Just... no.

    the way they treat you when you give bad or wrong advice has no effect on their ability to play, or how right they are.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    They are talking out of their own self-importance most of the time, make false assumptions and just ignore arguments that explain why one does not agree with them. They call everybody to listen, but are unable or unwilling to do that themselves.

    Did you just describe yourself ? :confused: Really, your English is superb, I couldn't say it better.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Two is arguable (I'll run it if I have absolutely nothing better to put there), three is always a waste... I wouldn't run three neutroniums even on a cruiser. There are so many better options: RCS for a 'scort, double up on the SIF gens for cruisers (or take one of either and stuff your Borg here).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    The way they judge what is "bad or wrong advice" though, has an effect. They are talking out of their own self-importance most of the time, make false assumptions and just ignore arguments that explain why one does not agree with them. They call everybody to listen, but are unable or unwilling to do that themselves. Hell, they sometimes don't even know why what they believe to be right might be right (or wrong), they just think on the "has worked for me" level, ignoring that their preferred PvP environment is full of data noise which will devalue their observations.l

    No one's words here should be taken without a switched-on brain, but especially not theirs.

    um, look in the mirror. my game play experience tells me everything they are saying is right. the only thing i would argue with them about is if 1 thing was slightly more effective then something else. they and a lot of the rest of us are at a level were we do basically know everything, theres nothing you can come up with that they haven't tried and judged a year ago and deemed win or fail. at this point we don't need to 'try it' to be sure, every single ability pared with every level of maneuverability and how that fits together with every other kind of ship stat are all known quantities to us. your like a med student arguing with the chief of surgery here.
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