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How to build a tank!
vixification
Member Posts: 8 Arc User
This guide has been deleted by the OP for people ruining her interest, trust, or wish to help Forum dwellers.
If you want my help, come ask me, I'm done putting my nice attempt out there only to get a "you're doing it wrong" sign slapped in the face.
I know what I'm doing, and you should all be ashamed of just how rudely you marched inhere and tore it to pieces before I even finished it.
If you want my help, come ask me, I'm done putting my nice attempt out there only to get a "you're doing it wrong" sign slapped in the face.
I know what I'm doing, and you should all be ashamed of just how rudely you marched inhere and tore it to pieces before I even finished it.
Proud Leader of the Sensual Adversaries and Co-Leader of Knights That Say Ni
Proud Co-Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
Proud Co-Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
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You're only a tank if you are the one taking all/most of the damage (I cant tell you how many numbskulls Ive run into who say they are awesome tanks and never die, but also never have anything attacking them because they put out as much aggro as a chump in an EV suit with a stun pistol). And if there is a decent escort around, there is no chance of an eng in a cruiser (even the bortasqu') holding threat off of them.
And, even then, if you run into someone with Attack Pattern Omega 3 and a decent spike build, even an engineer in a cruiser with threat control maxed will not be holding threat off of 'em anyway (for example, one of my kdf tacs can do upwards of 22-25k dps on the carrier in CSE, depending on the team make up, good luck holding aggro off that). Especially if you run into a tac escort captain who did the Threat control 3 / Hull Armour 6 for the higher resistance.
Basically, cruisers need innate threat control (maybe even go so far as giving escorts an innate minus to threat, like -10 or so).
There are other things that help with this as well, FAW, DEM, max weapon power (Since aggro in this game is all equal to DPS=Aggro, Threat control just ups the amount of threat per damage that you do) and Attack Pattern Beta. These help, but they're not fool proof.
This is why I'm such an advocate of a Taunt Button, which tanks desperately need.
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
I used to run without it and got bored shooting borg whilst all the escorts around me popped. Sure I was the last one to go down but thats after everyone else went before me. As a tank that's not cool for team play.
Once I discovered threat control I came into my element as a tanker. The game changed as _I_ was controlling the damage being dealt to my team. Now, If I'm not using a heal/buff/resist power I feel like I'm doing nothing. If you're not taking heat, your not tanking.
I specced 6 into threat, but the heat can get a bit much when tanking 6 spheres that emerge from the gate on ISE. They hunt you down. For me 3 points into it is a good balance of getting and holding aggro whilst engaging them, then if I need to cut loose to lick my wounds for 30 seconds I can without too much issue.
You also get a bit more passive damage resist from the skill to help with the extra heat.
Also speccing 9 into any subsystem performance skill (wepons, aux, engine, shield) to boost power level is a waste. This final 3 points get you all of ONE point more power. The first three get you 3 points of power each, 4-6 points spent gets you an extra 1 power each point spent, the final three only give 1/3 of a point of power. So you're better off speccing 6 in each and using the saved points elsewhere.
Like 9 in armour reinforcements to resist massive boss torp kinetic damage.
Driver coil points are a waste unless you Doff a lot.
.....
FAIL. I saw an Orion in the avatar and I thought you (eradicator) were the OP.
So yeah.
As for skill points. I agree, any more than 6/9 into the direct subsystem power skills is a waste. But, Id also say the same thing about Hull armour and Armour Reinforcements. Once you get up past 6 you wont be seeing much more than one or two percent more resistance extra for those skill points. AND, ALL resistance, even the stuff gained by skills is subject to the diminishing returns that resistances suffer. Depending on the defensive cooldowns you're rotating, youll be running regularly with resistances so high that the effective extra bonus will from 9/9 Armour Reinforcements will be about nil.
There is a sweet spot between plating and threat control, 6 in each gives a solid resist value vs any other combination of the 2, but with 6 threat being too hard to control at times I pulled the 3 points out of it and put it in plating. Slightly less resistance but far more manageable threat control.
9 in armour is for STF/fleet stuff where you get hit by big boss torps and torp spreads. Sometimes polarise hull or brace for impact is on cooldown so having lots if armour helps mitigate those big hull spike damages. Cause when they come you usually aren't at 100% hull HP anyway.
So if you're saving points on subsystem performance skills and don't spend it in armour or plating what would you spend the spare points on?
Not because he usually holds aggro in space (he does though, unless confronted with someone else who is heavilly specced into Threat Control) but because he can cripple the enemy so that its attacks don't hurt and it takes more damage, whilst layering on a lot of DPS and being pretty survivable.
The key to this is high Energy Drain, via Plasmonic Leech, Aceton Assimilator and Tyken's Rift. An enemy with Low Weapons power only tickles your shields with Energy Weapons - and Rift also has the side effect of destroying Heavy Torpedos as they launch, which negates a lot of the non-energy weapon damage. My ship of choice is a Kar'fi, for the Commander Sci BOFF slot, perma-125 Weapons Power + the ability to use DHCs and launch two wings of fighters.
On the ground, the same Captain uses the Borg Medical Analyzer Kit to stay on his feet constantly whilst under heavy fire, plus Dampening Field to debuff Major Foes (Bosses, Elite Tac Drones, etc). Scientific Aptitute and the KHG set bonus "Adrenal Booster" allow him to shed CC, and there's always Hypos as a backup. Crouching plus the spammable Sci heals goes a long way towards Srvivability; and Aiming, "Tachyon Harmonic" and the KHG Pulsewave weapon goes a long way towards pulling Aggro.
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Probably easier to just do it this way:
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=TankKeto_1187
Personally, I happen to like Driver Coil, Batteries, Power Insulators and Inertial Dampeners. I know a lot of people dont. But, for the most part, I dont give a hoot. The particular captain I use this on is an Alien as well: Accurate, Elusive, Warp Theorist and Efficient Captain (thus the Warp Core Efficiency and Potential) and I splurged and got Saurian Boffs.
For that particular set up, Ive got a purple and blue conn officer reducing the tactical team cooldown, a purple warp core engineer, and a green shield distribution and hazard systems doff.
I also have a set of Single Cannons and turrets. I drop the TT Conn officers and go with another shield dis and a Evasive. I retrain the boffs to both TT1 and then I alternate between CRF1 and CSV1 depending on which will be more useful at the time.
Sometimes, I ditch the Extend 1 and get a second copy of RSP 1. But, its not really necessary, and I hardly ever do it. The extend usually comes in more useful for when you run into those escorts you just cannot keep aggro off of until they die once.
Also, I didnt go with polarise because, especially if Im using my cannons set up, Im normally trying to get hit by the heavy plasma to make the fights go faster.
I like maelwys' set up to. Ive been doing the exact same thing but with a tactical officer. Back before Power Siphon Drones were nerfed, I could tank so perfectly with that character (using the karfi as a torp boat, however) that I gave up fed tanking and respecced my main fed, an eng, to a more versatile "Do everything pretty well except Photonic Shockwave" build. Then I decided I missed the pure threat tanker and made another.
In either case, thanks for the criticism, but I assure you that it's not needed.
And since I obviously am nothing in comparrison to you 'gods' who know 'exactly' what you're doing and make me look like a fumbling noob in comparrison, I think I'll just ditch what I thought was a great idea.
Thanks for completely destroying my morale about this too, I appreciate your understanding.
Proud Co-Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
Your first paragraph is where we disconnect. For a tank, points of Threat Control help with survivability, they do not hinder it. It adds additional damage resistance, making you tougher and harder to kill.
When you say that points in the Threat Control stat negatively impact your survivability, it means youre not really tanking. Im not trying to be mean about this or demoralise you, it is just a case of "this is the way that it is." Everything is supposed to be attacking you anyway (although, with the amount of damage a good escort can put out, that is sometimes an unachievable ideal). Thats the purpose of Threat Control, to keep things focused on you so the squishier ships dont blow up and to give you some additional help staying alive through it all.
If your way of doing things works for you and makes you happy, then good for you, keep playing the way you want. However, Id be grateful if youd keep the snide comments about others competency to yourself. Because, I do happen to know exactly what Im talking about. Its pretty easy to, in fact, as this is a cut and dry issue.
Engineers need threat control to be real tanks.
Threat control adds quite a bit of passive resist to your ship (almost as much as the hull plating skill itself, though with both skilled there's diminishing returns) and makes NPCs come for you more so.
Sure without it the single target I'm firing at will aggro on me, but nothing else will even after BFAW (if the whole teams attacking everything). A tank needs a lot of or all the baddies near them to focus on them, not the escort ripping the enemy a new one.
Skilling into threat control makes life tougher as a tank, but that's your job. Surviving it all is the fun/exhilarating part
Without Threat control I doubt you're attracting the attention of mobs of borg spheres. I can barely keep them interested with 3 points spent in it with all my team mates attacking them too. Actually thinking of moving to 4 or 5 in the skill. I know 6 is too much heat for my liking.
Fire up a tribble session, spec into threat control and see what you think. The extra resist is great versus a single enemy (extra resist!) once you aggro more it helps a lot, and if you're tanking more = win for team.
On a wider note, I think it's worth considering just what a "tank" is, especially in STO (where hard CC is not so easy to come by). It's a fairly simple task to build a hitpoint sponge that can take a tremendous, if not infinite amount of punishment, but then what's the point? Why would anyone (NPC or otherwise) bother targeting you? Finding the balance between threat and defensiveness is key, the way I see it.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Sorry but you are incorrect.
It is true the threat control says it adds damage resists but it gives so little it is insignificant compared to the amount of damage you receive from getting aggro from every ship out there.
The real purpose of threat control is to grab aggro. Its the only 'provoke' ability the game has since this game literally HAS no means of grabbing hate. The AI does not target the highest dps ship or the one that heals the best or the one with the highest resists..nothing. It just randomly grabs people and/or the ones who are closest to it when battle starts.
I would say CRUISERS need threat control to be real tanks. Escorts and science ships (excluding carriers) suffer from the increased aggro dumped upon them.
Which is the problem. If your toon flies all three ships then getting a single point in threat control can be severely detrimental.
Not disagreeing, but adding some numbers here:
Threat Control=0 Hull Plating=0 =2%
Threat Control=3 Hull Plating=0 =6.9%
Threat Control=6 Hull Plating=0 =9.4%
Threat Control=9 Hull Plating=0 =10.6%
Threat Control=0 Hull Plating=3 =9.2%
Threat Control=0 Hull Plating=6 =12.7%
Threat Control=0 Hull Plating=9 =14.4%
Threat Control=3 Hull Plating=3 =13.4%
Threat Control=6 Hull Plating=3 =15.6%
Threat Control=3 Hull Plating=6 =16.6%
Threat Control=6 Hull Plating=6 =18.6%
Threat Control=9 Hull Plating=3 =16.6%
Threat Control=3 Hull Plating=9 =18.1%
(For reference: Mk XII Rare Neutronium Armor = +18.8% resistance)
Certainly true.
Can be a real headache if you're not set up to deal with the extra aggro.
Speaking for my own Engineer, who has 6/9 Threat Control, he generally ends up holding the aggro of whatever he starts shooting at, regardless of whether he's on a Cruiser or an Escort at the time. If you want to tank stuff, then by all means skill into Threat Control. Just be aware what you're getting into... not everyone's comfortable with an Escort doing the Tanking
Wow .... totally didnt notice this.
Even though I doubt youll respond, what were we supposed to do other than tell you that you are doing it wrong. Because, the simple truth is, you are. Its very, *very* difficult to put that any other way.
Seriously, if you put up something advertising itself as a guide to instruct new or ignorant players and it has serious flaws, you cant get mad when someone points them out. There is already enough misinformation about various game mechanics, especially in Zone. Most people you talk to there think the borg have extra plasma resistance or similarly idiotic notions.
The only person who needs to be ashamed about anything is you. You received simple, straight, and valid criticism and way overreacted.
I'm sorry that you felt offended, but I agree with the sentiment of the thread.
You really cannot guide people to building an Eng/Cruiser tank without Threat Control.
Not on any team where the player's are even halfway decent.
However I'm willing to give you a shot, you're more than welcome to send me a tell in-game (@USS_Ultimatum) for some Elite STFs - I'll bring my Tac/Escort (0/9 Threat Control) or my Tac/Cruiser (6/9 Threat Control).
If you can actually hold aggro with either one of them next to you I'll come back and report as much here in this thread to validate your statements.
NPCs bother targeting you because you have Threat Control.
An Eng in a Cruiser has to work harder at it, but 6/9 or 9/9 threat with 6 to 8 beams + BFAW means that you will hold aggro on most NPCs within range most of the time.
The only time you should lose aggro with any frequency is if you are playing too far back and/or a Tac or Sci shows up and also has threat control (as the Tac's raw damage or the Sci's debuffs + threat will generally overcome whatever threat the Eng can generate).
Indeed. Not to berate the OP personally, but I find it highly amusing that someone isn't prepared to deal with a little incoming damage in a thread about "tanking"... :P
I think the problem stems from misconceptions about what "tanking" means. A lot of people seem to think it means "I flyz da croozer and shootz da beamzorz!" When you disabuse them of that notion, even non-maliciously, its like you are the big, bad wolf blowing down their cardboard house.
I've done enough experimenting to say with confidence that there is no one correct strategy in STO. The combat mechanics are too dynamic, allowing for players to mix different different strategies and play styles and even favoring those players that can adapt to situations and create new strategies mid game.
Opening a lockbox is like using a public restroom when u gotta poo.
You are just hoping nobody blew on the seat or that all the toilet paper is gone.