We're aware of the Plasmonic Leech stacking issues. Those are separate from Polaron procs mechanically-speaking, and can be discarded from the question at hand and handled as a separate issue.
While you can discard any mechanical bugs (if you are actually going to fix them), you should not discard the fact that plasmonic leech is an always-on drain ability that will stack with the polaron drain. You should take that into account when coming up with a reasonable maximum drain that you are aiming for.
Borticus, it's great that you're posting here and asking for feedback from the community. While we have different opinions and ideas on the way procs should work, something we're unanimous in is that we really want the 20% plasma resist on competitive shields removed. It's crippling an entire energy type for no real reason (the STF content is not that hard, and as others have pointed out, the only real threat doesn't come from plasma energy weapons anyway).
If you absolutely must keep some kind of "plasma resist" built into the MACO/Omega/KHG shields, just make it "20% [Borg] resist" or something. I know it'd be a little more work flagging Borg weapons, but I can't imagine it'd be too difficult since the game engine already registers a flag for applying Borg radiation.
We're aware of the Plasmonic Leech stacking issues. Those are separate from Polaron procs mechanically-speaking, and can be discarded from the question at hand and handled as a separate issue.
this worries me a little, the lack of communication on these and the thought that 2 seperate power draining issues can not be considered for each other because theyre "mechanically" different doesnt matter, the fact they both cause the same effect (power drains) is more important when it comes to figuring out how to balance one.
i get the feeling this is done for a lot of issues in the game.
also, why was the polarons half fixed without the limiter in the first place? there is a test server you could have left these changes on so we could get the feel for the 5 second drain (which i think is too long, 3 seconds is more easy to take) and then when the limiter would be added itd be on tribble to figure ouit the balance for the limit on draining and could be adjusted etc etc.
While we're talking about weapons, please fix the allowed ships that are able to equip the new Phased Tetryon DHCs. The Armitage can't equip them because you guys forgot to add "Escort Carrier" to the allowed list of ships.
Would be great if this could get patched up by the next patch so I can use the new Phased Tetryons DHCs on my Armitage.
Since it didn't go in with the changes, it's still subject to review. And since nobody here knows our original intent, why don't we poll the PvP crew to see if we got close to your expectations?
How 'bout it? What does this crew consider a reasonable Stack Limit on Polaron Proc debuffs?
I suppose the honest answer would be against my foe I should have unlimited stacks. Against me the limit should be 0.
Stacking procs, any procs, should be a valid tactic. If a specific tactic starts to dominate then you might want to tweak the proc itself and not the stack limit. That is where you mighty math powers comes into play. I think we should always err in the side of a power doing what it is supposed to do. Yeah it sucks when those powers are being used against you but quite frankly if you are getting ganked you are having a bad day regardless.
I would probably default to no stacking at all from identical abilities. More Polarons mean higher chance to proc, do we really need them all to stack? Especially if the proc's energy drain can also be increased with skills!
So I say no stacking at all. You can still allow having multiple stacks active at the same time, but only the highest penalty would apply. Maybe that would be how it works anyway,but I am just making sure to mention this option - it can mean that constant Polaron fire can keep the target "down", but not force him out entirely.
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I suppose the honest answer would be against my foe I should have unlimited stacks. Against me the limit should be 0.
Stacking procs, any procs, should be a valid tactic. If a specific tactic starts to dominate then you might want to tweak the proc itself and not the stack limit. That is where you mighty math powers comes into play. I think we should always err in the side of a power doing what it is supposed to do. Yeah it sucks when those powers are being used against you but quite frankly if you are getting ganked you are having a bad day regardless.
ok then! lets go with a cruiser, 8 polaron turrets, rapid firing the TRIBBLE out of you for unlimited drain.
each proc renews the 5 seconds, so you would eventually just be powerless after a few vollys.
ok! so then reduce the amount each shot drains right?
wrong, the unlimited power drain would still happen no matter little it actually drain. you could only drain 1 power for 5 secodns, but a full team of polarons would still leave you powerless. and each proc not only drains power but renews the timer.....
so yeah.... procs in the game need overhauled. no more half TRIBBLE'd fixes pushed live.
Three procs stacking would be reasonable. It has a very small chance to completely put offline a minor subsystem for less than 5 seconds, but it remains inferior to phasers in this case. Four would make it somewhat equal, but it would almost never happen anyway.
i think 3 seconds would have been plenty, you fgigure with most players power regen it already takes 2-4 seconds to get back the power fully drained. add another 3 seconds to that and its golden! however add 5 seconds to that you have 7-9 seconds of power loss, topped not that they stack at 5 seconds a peice! what the hell!
cryptic has a test server, i guess its called holodeck?
Three procs... stacking. Three. Procs. Three Debuffs that don't comeback until they are cleared. Three debuffs that give you -42 to all subsystems. Stack them so they give a total -126 to all power levels? No. No, no, no, no!
This is close to being as nasty as a phaser proc. In a team centered around power drain with everyone running polaron weaponry, or hell, just a team with everyone running polarons for giggles, you're going to find yourself out of power *all* the time. While it's certainly a powerful mechanic, it's not going to be fun for anyone on the receiving end of it. It'll just happen and you'll be dead in space with ****-all that you can do about it. It'll happen, and happen often.
I'm telling ya, stacking Polaron procs are gonna be bad mojo. I mean, they're certainly nasty as is. I don't want them nerfed outside of preventing them from stacking, and I certainly don't think you need temporary immunity to them (they're not that all-or-nothing), but there is no good reason anywhere on God's green Earth for them to stack, whether from yourself or multiple sources. It's just going to invite more complaining and much, much more rage quitting because what you'll be allowing is a situation where a person can walk up to you, and kill you, with nothing in your power to do something about it. There's an allegory there, and I hope you see it, because that's *exactly* what stacking Polaron procs will be allowing for.
This isn't just a PvP problem, either. If you want AI opponents to keep their current level of threat, then you don't want these to stack there, either. I've heard that enemies in PvE all run at 50 power in all subsystems, so if that's true, what do you supposed the end result would be if you turned a bunch of Polaron-cruisers loose with FAW or scatter volley and stacking procs? Dual cannons on Escorts? On proc alone you could quite conceivably take the teeth out of virtually any enemy in any content in the game with just a little luck. This'll get even worse in the "boss fight" encounters where focus fire becomes the primary tactic.
Infected and Khitomer Gates? Offline.
Infected and Khitomer Tac Cube? Offline.
Donatra and virutally any other Scimitar or D'deridex? Offline.
The Assimilated carrier and the Negh'vars of Cure? Offline.
The dreadnoughts in the Fleet Alert and Fleet Starbase Defense missions? Offline.
Anytime focus fire is warranted, these are going to make the focus-fired target fold, hard. It will be unable to contribute to its own survival or the destruction of any targets threatening it, which brings us full circle to PvP where one of, if not the, chief tactic is to focus fire on whoever the weakest target at any given moment is to overcome it, and its teamate's, healing. Without being able to contribute to escaping the damage, out healing the damage, or reducing the damage by eliminating the source of the incoming damage thanks to power loss, the focus-fired target is just going to fold. Now, when combined with AoE weapon attacks the amount of Polaron weapon procs you could cause across an entire team with Proc stacking would make your little group of Fire-at-Willing cruisers, scatter volleying Escorts, and fire-at-willing science ships would be absolutely devastating.
So, in a nutshell, yes, I'm against any kind of stacking of the Polaron proc, whether it be from yourself or multiple sources.
Three procs... stacking. Three. Procs. Three Debuffs that don't comeback until they are cleared. Three debuffs that give you -42 to all subsystems. Stack them so they give a total -126 to all power levels? No. No, no, no, no!
this is what i saw in my head as soon as i read the change, polarons, for a short wile, being a phaser proc x4. i didn't want to popo it to quickly, i just had gotten a set of polaron weapons and wanted to try them out. they can fix it after ive had my fun for a day or 2
I think no more than one polaron proc should affect a ship at a single time. That's to say, it should not stack at all. To do otherwise causes scaling issues as soon as you have sufficiently many polarons weapons targeting a single ship, or even a single ship getting a lucky string of procs. Probably the largest polaron proc should be the one that takes effect, but to allow proc stacking makes things extremely difficult to balance.
We're aware of the Plasmonic Leech stacking issues. Those are separate from Polaron procs mechanically-speaking, and can be discarded from the question at hand and handled as a separate issue.
A few simple solutions to all the drain TRIBBLE would be to simply:
- Put a hard limit on how much someones powerlevel can be drained.
- Make it some curved mechanic based on which powerlevel is already low so only the high ones get affected the most.
- Make it so you can only be drained till to the base power levels, so 125/94/53/48 would become 100/50/25/25 in the most effective circumstance (Stacked by multiple players on you)
The problem with insulators now, is that its;
a. Only half affective against drain stuff being stacked on you.
b. Every time new stuff is added to the game with some drain function, the scaling of insulators will go out of whack. You can keep tweaking insulators against all the drain stuff but adding a new weapon or toy which shares no cooldown with Energy syphon (as an ability) or leech (As a console) you basically again can use more drain TRIBBLE simultaneously, which the Power insulator skill will not like.
Seems kinda unpractical to constantly tweak this resistance in the skill tree anyway. Personally i tossed it out of my respec because its basically of no use when people are stacking draincrap on you.
Wouldnt it be better to just revamp the Insulator skill and that this resistance actually affects the stuff I mentioned above in some way? So even with new draincrap added to the game, the system will not go out of whack which requires precious Developer time, but instead it will just keep you protected from any new drain stuff that is released?
Pretty much with those power insulators you can pretty much kiss any energy stealing setup you did have good bye... I probally have more toons than most players have on their account I've just let be doff collectors due to their boff setups being pretty much useless with the energy stealing nerfs along with power insulators buffs.
Just like the siphon drones and tykens rift should be able to technically drain power and disable either by a proc or at some point its not like in the series where you got something draining power and you hail the enemy and say TIME OUT!
Or we could add the EPS skill to the resistance math? Power insulators could reduce hard drain (like tachyon beam and TSS abilitys) and EPS could reduce slow drain (like leech and poloron).
Some numberd from my butt
Target shields one subtracts 10 energy from your shield system instantly
Power insulators at 9 gives you a 75% resist so drain is 2 eps resists drain over time so it does nothing.
Energy syphon takes 2 power per second for 10 seconds
insulators at 9 reduces that to .25 for 10 seconds and eps negates say 50% at 9 so your total drain is .125 for 10 seconds
Polaron proc does -42 for 5 seconds
insulators at 9reduces it to 10.2 for 5 seconds eps at 9 reduces it to 5.1
Obviously I didn't balance these numbers and I have no idea what the actual numbers are but you get the idea.
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Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
A few simple solutions to all the drain TRIBBLE would be to simply:
- Put a hard limit on how much someones powerlevel can be drained.
- Make it some curved mechanic based on which powerlevel is already low so only the high ones get affected the most.
- Make it so you can only be drained till to the base power levels, so 125/94/53/48 would become 100/50/25/25 in the most effective circumstance (Stacked by multiple players on you)
or a hard limit of 25 for all subsystems no matter which power drains are stacked on you (polarons+leach+syphon+tyken etc). You would still have some small defense and some speed.
I also agree with disposeableh3r0 that the power drain speed can be countered or slowed down by scaling in EPS and fitting EPS consoles. Perhaps also, when activating batteries the drains on that sub-system are cleared and have so stack again.
For polarons one could also think of a resist period (e.g. 20 sec) starting 10 sec after the initial proc.
I lean to having procs balanced on the premise of no stacking at all.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
I've been running around with polarons for just under a full day now and I have to say the strength of the new proc is pretty messed up. I can't say if it stacks or not (server was having some weird problems tonight making the spaghetti UI all glitchy) but I've sure as hell seen people physically slowed down to a crawl because they just lost half their engines.
well, i can get poloran to drain 44 energy with 9 too flow cap and 2 +28 consoles. 2 stacks of that would be 88, which would leave 3 out of 4 subsystems at or near 0 assuming there is a subsystem set at 100power ..... you see were this is going right
if it were me, i would have them stack consecutively, not concurrently (sequentially, not on top of each other) and not limit the amount that can stack. thats what i would try first, and if we can stack 20 seconds worth of procs on someone reliably then maybe add a cap.
i would also have insulators reduce the amount drained, AND duration drained.
those 2 procs are different. they are extra damage, phasers and polaron right now have a chance to remove subsystems for 5 seconds, under focus fire an instant death sentance.
i would give disrupters, plasma, and tetryon all 5-10% proc chance, and anti proton an extra free acc mod with their crit mod. in this form, energy types would finally have balance*, imo.
*balance if 9 into particle generators at least doubled the plasma energy weapon dot, and the set shields were without thier 20% resistance to plasma energy damage.
Let's start off with correct values shall we rather than distorting them. Flow cap consoles as well as any skill modifying consoles only modify the skill itself, which then indirectly modifies the proc
So no, 2 flow cap consoles won't get you 88 drain. Most I could estimate with your base figures would be around 48 or 49. Now, resume untested theorizing.
Let's start off with correct values shall we rather than distorting them. Flow cap consoles as well as any skill modifying consoles only modify the skill itself, which then indirectly modifies the proc
So no, 2 flow cap consoles won't get you 88 drain. Most I could estimate with your base figures would be around 48 or 49. Now, resume untested theorizing.
it may not be 88 but its still high.
without any consoles and 9 points, i get 38ish drain. i imagine if i ran with 4 consoles that give +30 each that would be insane. then not including the deflector or captain abilitys....
Borticus, it's great that you're posting here and asking for feedback from the community. While we have different opinions and ideas on the way procs should work, something we're unanimous in is that we really want the 20% plasma resist on competitive shields removed. It's crippling an entire energy type for no real reason (the STF content is not that hard, and as others have pointed out, the only real threat doesn't come from plasma energy weapons anyway).
If you absolutely must keep some kind of "plasma resist" built into the MACO/Omega/KHG shields, just make it "20% [Borg] resist" or something. I know it'd be a little more work flagging Borg weapons, but I can't imagine it'd be too difficult since the game engine already registers a flag for applying Borg radiation.
Here here! I love plasma weapons and it saddens me to know if I were to take them against another level 50 the odds are I will lose simply because of weapon choice.
If losing you think losing the damage resist will be such a huge problem in STF's why not just reduce Borg damage a bit. Maybe not a flat 20% but a decent amount to compensate.
Perhaps also, when activating batteries the drains on that sub-system are cleared and have so stack again.
I too like this idea, although i would add battery like tech such as the red matter capacitor. I think we're approaching this from the wrong direction. It should be about the lack of counter.
The real problem with poleron procs seems to be that they don't have an active counter. A phaser proc can be fixed with an engineering team (unless i'm out of date? Been away for a while). Disruptor procs used to be fixed by tac team, but as I understand it have been improved because of the prevalence of tac team. Why shouldn't a science team clear all energy drain procs. And why is it that the passive skill defense is so meaningless that few have even mentioned it? Should not flow capacitors and power insulators neutralize each other one for one? If that's true then the only problem seems to be that no one wants to respec their builds to include more power insulators. PVP balancing problems... the hidden cost of charging for respecs. :rolleyes:
Give all the procs a Bridge officer skill that counters it. Then its about tactical choices between limited options, and that's just fun.
I actually have a toon using a Bortas with 8 poleron turrets. It didn't seem overpowered before, but was good enough to have around. I'll take it out for a while with the new change and get back to you.
Let's start off with correct values shall we rather than distorting them. Flow cap consoles as well as any skill modifying consoles only modify the skill itself, which then indirectly modifies the proc
So no, 2 flow cap consoles won't get you 88 drain. Most I could estimate with your base figures would be around 48 or 49. Now, resume untested theorizing.
so wait your using your first post to call me a lair? well thats classy. perhaps you misread or didn't understand what i said. i only claimed a single proc would yield -44, not -88. 2 procs would drain some one of 88. and yes i understand how skill point and consoles that give additional skillpoints effect abilities or procs. we were talking about whether there should be a cap to the number of procs some one should be able to receive, and with how much i can get to drain per proc, its clear that even 2 stacking is too many.
How 'bout it? What does this crew consider a reasonable Stack Limit on Polaron Proc debuffs?
Even if we give a viable suggestion for the Stack Limit on just Polarons, you still have something that should be considered:
First: Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship?
Second: Can 2 Players use Polarons to completely shut down a ship.
Third: Can 3 Players use Polarons to completely shut down a ship.
Fourth: Can 4 Players use Polarons to completely shut down a ship.
Fifth: Can 5 Players use Polarons to completely shut down a ship.
After You have the answer to that, you then need to add in this situation..
Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship With Plasmonic Leech?
What about 2 Players?, 3? etc..
Once you have the answer to that, Add in this situation:
Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship With Power Siphon Drones?
What about 2 Players? 3? Etc..
And Then you have to check to see if yet another situation could occure..
Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship With Tyken's Rift?
What about 2 Players? 3? Etc..
And then you have to ask..
Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship With Energy Siphon?
What about 2 Players? 3? etc..
All of the above questions also taking into account at least 6-9 Points in the apporiate defensive Skills.
Once you finally get to the Answer NO on all of those situations, including combineing Power Siphon Drones in addion to Polarons, in additon to Plasmonic Leech and Tyken's Rift. You might finally have a balanced situation that players in PVP may not abuse or consider to be Over powered.
Lastly, you have to ask, how important should Polarons be to Plasmonic Leech, Tyken's Rift, Power Siphon Drones, and Energy Siphon.
If using Polaron Weapons takes any/all of those above listed powers and bring their ability in a 5 man situation to an overpowered and unfun situation, then obviously the Polarons Stacking needs Tweeking.
Because one of the most unfun situations in the game, is the Complete and Total Disable. And it's even worse when an ENGINEER class character with maxed out and tricked out EPS power can't get out of the power drain being supplied from a combination of Polarons, Plasmomic Leech, Tyken's Rift, and Power Siphon Drones.
So, that is my answer to the quoted question. Make sure that none of those combinations put together in a 5 man situation equals complete and total shut down of a full team, with out a viable counter. And the Viable Counter should be the one thing that both an Engineer, Some doffs, Energy siphon, Batteries, Red Matter Capaciter, and Emergency Power to X should be able viable to use in defense.
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so wait your using your first post to call me a lair? well thats classy. perhaps you misread or didn't understand what i said. i only claimed a single proc would yield -44, not -88. 2 procs would drain some one of 88. and yes i understand how skill point and consoles that give additional skillpoints effect abilities or procs. we were talking about whether there should be a cap to the number of procs some one should be able to receive, and with how much i can get to drain per proc, its clear that even 2 stacking is too many.
If I misunderstood you, I am sorry. The way you had it worded was as if stacking consoles would give you 88 drain instead of 2 of the 44 procs. As for a solution, maybe make additional stacking procs only add maybe 1/3 more on stacked procs and tweak insulators. For example, if I drain 33 main, if I proc on top of the other, I would add 11 drain to what is already gone so that it totals 44. Then tweak power insulators to be slightly stronger to resist both Polaron and Tetryon.
Another good way to handle power siphon as a whole would be to allow insulators to get more effective with more power drained. Meaning make insulators cut total power drain to systems by a certain percent from the total drained rather than by proc. This would make power siphon still useful without that whole OP factor of just shutting you down.
Another quick fix for Borg sets, just activate the 20% bonus when entering Borg combat areas. Would only effect one pvp zone but makes sense to be buffed up on Borg maps only. Also should be programmer wise easier. At least till we get a better idea on how to handle it.
Comments
If you absolutely must keep some kind of "plasma resist" built into the MACO/Omega/KHG shields, just make it "20% [Borg] resist" or something. I know it'd be a little more work flagging Borg weapons, but I can't imagine it'd be too difficult since the game engine already registers a flag for applying Borg radiation.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
NO proc is the closest thing to balanced this game will ever achieve
Now e1 can just pick their favorite color...
this worries me a little, the lack of communication on these and the thought that 2 seperate power draining issues can not be considered for each other because theyre "mechanically" different doesnt matter, the fact they both cause the same effect (power drains) is more important when it comes to figuring out how to balance one.
i get the feeling this is done for a lot of issues in the game.
also, why was the polarons half fixed without the limiter in the first place? there is a test server you could have left these changes on so we could get the feel for the 5 second drain (which i think is too long, 3 seconds is more easy to take) and then when the limiter would be added itd be on tribble to figure ouit the balance for the limit on draining and could be adjusted etc etc.
you have a test server, why isnt it used to test?
Would be great if this could get patched up by the next patch so I can use the new Phased Tetryons DHCs on my Armitage.
I suppose the honest answer would be against my foe I should have unlimited stacks. Against me the limit should be 0.
Stacking procs, any procs, should be a valid tactic. If a specific tactic starts to dominate then you might want to tweak the proc itself and not the stack limit. That is where you mighty math powers comes into play. I think we should always err in the side of a power doing what it is supposed to do. Yeah it sucks when those powers are being used against you but quite frankly if you are getting ganked you are having a bad day regardless.
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Be black on the right side. Add properly colored Cheron to the game today!
So I say no stacking at all. You can still allow having multiple stacks active at the same time, but only the highest penalty would apply. Maybe that would be how it works anyway,but I am just making sure to mention this option - it can mean that constant Polaron fire can keep the target "down", but not force him out entirely.
ok then! lets go with a cruiser, 8 polaron turrets, rapid firing the TRIBBLE out of you for unlimited drain.
each proc renews the 5 seconds, so you would eventually just be powerless after a few vollys.
ok! so then reduce the amount each shot drains right?
wrong, the unlimited power drain would still happen no matter little it actually drain. you could only drain 1 power for 5 secodns, but a full team of polarons would still leave you powerless. and each proc not only drains power but renews the timer.....
so yeah.... procs in the game need overhauled. no more half TRIBBLE'd fixes pushed live.
please.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
I loved the underated polarons
cryptic has a test server, i guess its called holodeck?
This is close to being as nasty as a phaser proc. In a team centered around power drain with everyone running polaron weaponry, or hell, just a team with everyone running polarons for giggles, you're going to find yourself out of power *all* the time. While it's certainly a powerful mechanic, it's not going to be fun for anyone on the receiving end of it. It'll just happen and you'll be dead in space with ****-all that you can do about it. It'll happen, and happen often.
I'm telling ya, stacking Polaron procs are gonna be bad mojo. I mean, they're certainly nasty as is. I don't want them nerfed outside of preventing them from stacking, and I certainly don't think you need temporary immunity to them (they're not that all-or-nothing), but there is no good reason anywhere on God's green Earth for them to stack, whether from yourself or multiple sources. It's just going to invite more complaining and much, much more rage quitting because what you'll be allowing is a situation where a person can walk up to you, and kill you, with nothing in your power to do something about it. There's an allegory there, and I hope you see it, because that's *exactly* what stacking Polaron procs will be allowing for.
This isn't just a PvP problem, either. If you want AI opponents to keep their current level of threat, then you don't want these to stack there, either. I've heard that enemies in PvE all run at 50 power in all subsystems, so if that's true, what do you supposed the end result would be if you turned a bunch of Polaron-cruisers loose with FAW or scatter volley and stacking procs? Dual cannons on Escorts? On proc alone you could quite conceivably take the teeth out of virtually any enemy in any content in the game with just a little luck. This'll get even worse in the "boss fight" encounters where focus fire becomes the primary tactic.
Infected and Khitomer Gates? Offline.
Infected and Khitomer Tac Cube? Offline.
Donatra and virutally any other Scimitar or D'deridex? Offline.
The Assimilated carrier and the Negh'vars of Cure? Offline.
The dreadnoughts in the Fleet Alert and Fleet Starbase Defense missions? Offline.
Anytime focus fire is warranted, these are going to make the focus-fired target fold, hard. It will be unable to contribute to its own survival or the destruction of any targets threatening it, which brings us full circle to PvP where one of, if not the, chief tactic is to focus fire on whoever the weakest target at any given moment is to overcome it, and its teamate's, healing. Without being able to contribute to escaping the damage, out healing the damage, or reducing the damage by eliminating the source of the incoming damage thanks to power loss, the focus-fired target is just going to fold. Now, when combined with AoE weapon attacks the amount of Polaron weapon procs you could cause across an entire team with Proc stacking would make your little group of Fire-at-Willing cruisers, scatter volleying Escorts, and fire-at-willing science ships would be absolutely devastating.
So, in a nutshell, yes, I'm against any kind of stacking of the Polaron proc, whether it be from yourself or multiple sources.
this is what i saw in my head as soon as i read the change, polarons, for a short wile, being a phaser proc x4. i didn't want to popo it to quickly, i just had gotten a set of polaron weapons and wanted to try them out. they can fix it after ive had my fun for a day or 2
A few simple solutions to all the drain TRIBBLE would be to simply:
- Put a hard limit on how much someones powerlevel can be drained.
- Make it some curved mechanic based on which powerlevel is already low so only the high ones get affected the most.
- Make it so you can only be drained till to the base power levels, so 125/94/53/48 would become 100/50/25/25 in the most effective circumstance (Stacked by multiple players on you)
The problem with insulators now, is that its;
a. Only half affective against drain stuff being stacked on you.
b. Every time new stuff is added to the game with some drain function, the scaling of insulators will go out of whack. You can keep tweaking insulators against all the drain stuff but adding a new weapon or toy which shares no cooldown with Energy syphon (as an ability) or leech (As a console) you basically again can use more drain TRIBBLE simultaneously, which the Power insulator skill will not like.
Seems kinda unpractical to constantly tweak this resistance in the skill tree anyway. Personally i tossed it out of my respec because its basically of no use when people are stacking draincrap on you.
Wouldnt it be better to just revamp the Insulator skill and that this resistance actually affects the stuff I mentioned above in some way? So even with new draincrap added to the game, the system will not go out of whack which requires precious Developer time, but instead it will just keep you protected from any new drain stuff that is released?
Just like the siphon drones and tykens rift should be able to technically drain power and disable either by a proc or at some point its not like in the series where you got something draining power and you hail the enemy and say TIME OUT!
Some numberd from my butt
Target shields one subtracts 10 energy from your shield system instantly
Power insulators at 9 gives you a 75% resist so drain is 2 eps resists drain over time so it does nothing.
Energy syphon takes 2 power per second for 10 seconds
insulators at 9 reduces that to .25 for 10 seconds and eps negates say 50% at 9 so your total drain is .125 for 10 seconds
Polaron proc does -42 for 5 seconds
insulators at 9reduces it to 10.2 for 5 seconds eps at 9 reduces it to 5.1
Obviously I didn't balance these numbers and I have no idea what the actual numbers are but you get the idea.
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or a hard limit of 25 for all subsystems no matter which power drains are stacked on you (polarons+leach+syphon+tyken etc). You would still have some small defense and some speed.
I also agree with disposeableh3r0 that the power drain speed can be countered or slowed down by scaling in EPS and fitting EPS consoles. Perhaps also, when activating batteries the drains on that sub-system are cleared and have so stack again.
For polarons one could also think of a resist period (e.g. 20 sec) starting 10 sec after the initial proc.
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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Let's start off with correct values shall we rather than distorting them. Flow cap consoles as well as any skill modifying consoles only modify the skill itself, which then indirectly modifies the proc
So no, 2 flow cap consoles won't get you 88 drain. Most I could estimate with your base figures would be around 48 or 49. Now, resume untested theorizing.
it may not be 88 but its still high.
without any consoles and 9 points, i get 38ish drain. i imagine if i ran with 4 consoles that give +30 each that would be insane. then not including the deflector or captain abilitys....
Here here! I love plasma weapons and it saddens me to know if I were to take them against another level 50 the odds are I will lose simply because of weapon choice.
If losing you think losing the damage resist will be such a huge problem in STF's why not just reduce Borg damage a bit. Maybe not a flat 20% but a decent amount to compensate.
I too like this idea, although i would add battery like tech such as the red matter capacitor. I think we're approaching this from the wrong direction. It should be about the lack of counter.
The real problem with poleron procs seems to be that they don't have an active counter. A phaser proc can be fixed with an engineering team (unless i'm out of date? Been away for a while). Disruptor procs used to be fixed by tac team, but as I understand it have been improved because of the prevalence of tac team. Why shouldn't a science team clear all energy drain procs. And why is it that the passive skill defense is so meaningless that few have even mentioned it? Should not flow capacitors and power insulators neutralize each other one for one? If that's true then the only problem seems to be that no one wants to respec their builds to include more power insulators. PVP balancing problems... the hidden cost of charging for respecs. :rolleyes:
Give all the procs a Bridge officer skill that counters it. Then its about tactical choices between limited options, and that's just fun.
I actually have a toon using a Bortas with 8 poleron turrets. It didn't seem overpowered before, but was good enough to have around. I'll take it out for a while with the new change and get back to you.
Nerfing is Fraud...
so wait your using your first post to call me a lair? well thats classy. perhaps you misread or didn't understand what i said. i only claimed a single proc would yield -44, not -88. 2 procs would drain some one of 88. and yes i understand how skill point and consoles that give additional skillpoints effect abilities or procs. we were talking about whether there should be a cap to the number of procs some one should be able to receive, and with how much i can get to drain per proc, its clear that even 2 stacking is too many.
Even if we give a viable suggestion for the Stack Limit on just Polarons, you still have something that should be considered:
First: Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship?
Second: Can 2 Players use Polarons to completely shut down a ship.
Third: Can 3 Players use Polarons to completely shut down a ship.
Fourth: Can 4 Players use Polarons to completely shut down a ship.
Fifth: Can 5 Players use Polarons to completely shut down a ship.
After You have the answer to that, you then need to add in this situation..
Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship With Plasmonic Leech?
What about 2 Players?, 3? etc..
Once you have the answer to that, Add in this situation:
Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship With Power Siphon Drones?
What about 2 Players? 3? Etc..
And Then you have to check to see if yet another situation could occure..
Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship With Tyken's Rift?
What about 2 Players? 3? Etc..
And then you have to ask..
Can a single player use Polarons to completely shut down a ship With Energy Siphon?
What about 2 Players? 3? etc..
All of the above questions also taking into account at least 6-9 Points in the apporiate defensive Skills.
Once you finally get to the Answer NO on all of those situations, including combineing Power Siphon Drones in addion to Polarons, in additon to Plasmonic Leech and Tyken's Rift. You might finally have a balanced situation that players in PVP may not abuse or consider to be Over powered.
Lastly, you have to ask, how important should Polarons be to Plasmonic Leech, Tyken's Rift, Power Siphon Drones, and Energy Siphon.
If using Polaron Weapons takes any/all of those above listed powers and bring their ability in a 5 man situation to an overpowered and unfun situation, then obviously the Polarons Stacking needs Tweeking.
Because one of the most unfun situations in the game, is the Complete and Total Disable. And it's even worse when an ENGINEER class character with maxed out and tricked out EPS power can't get out of the power drain being supplied from a combination of Polarons, Plasmomic Leech, Tyken's Rift, and Power Siphon Drones.
So, that is my answer to the quoted question. Make sure that none of those combinations put together in a 5 man situation equals complete and total shut down of a full team, with out a viable counter. And the Viable Counter should be the one thing that both an Engineer, Some doffs, Energy siphon, Batteries, Red Matter Capaciter, and Emergency Power to X should be able viable to use in defense.
Think about this:
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If I misunderstood you, I am sorry. The way you had it worded was as if stacking consoles would give you 88 drain instead of 2 of the 44 procs. As for a solution, maybe make additional stacking procs only add maybe 1/3 more on stacked procs and tweak insulators. For example, if I drain 33 main, if I proc on top of the other, I would add 11 drain to what is already gone so that it totals 44. Then tweak power insulators to be slightly stronger to resist both Polaron and Tetryon.
Another good way to handle power siphon as a whole would be to allow insulators to get more effective with more power drained. Meaning make insulators cut total power drain to systems by a certain percent from the total drained rather than by proc. This would make power siphon still useful without that whole OP factor of just shutting you down.
Another quick fix for Borg sets, just activate the 20% bonus when entering Borg combat areas. Would only effect one pvp zone but makes sense to be buffed up on Borg maps only. Also should be programmer wise easier. At least till we get a better idea on how to handle it.