test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

360-degree flight

2»

Comments

  • brodie0854brodie0854 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    tacofangs wrote: »
    My feelings on the subject is 2 fold:

    1) It's canon. Yes, there are a handful of times in the shows/movies where ships did crazy 3d movements. 99% of the rest of the show, any ships that met in space, were sitting on the same invisible plane, with both of their respective 'ups' pointed in the same direction. This is Star Trek, in Star Trek there IS an up in space.

    2) Full 3D flight, without the benefit of huge landmarks like, say, the ground, can get very disorienting. Don't get me wrong, I love a full 3d Space Sim as much as the next guy (gah! Bring back Freelancer! and Tie Fighter!), but it DOES get confusing, even to me. A newbie, who's only here for the trek, and doesn't have a lot of experience in other space games, can already get overwhelmed in combat as it stands today. Add full 3d movement to that, and you've lost a customer.

    Oh, and btw, Quaternions TRIBBLE with my head constantly. Our sky system uses them for sun movement, and it takes me forever to get something into the position I want it to be.

    I understand the need for the system thats in game, i understand why you went with that choice. What i dont understand is why you never considered (or if you did why you discounted) the option to have full 3D Movement with a self righting system.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Just a slight suggestion..

    If you really want to get your point across..., Don't use Red Font...

    It's damn near impossible for most folks to read on a black background.
    krell83sto wrote: »
    1) Babylon 5 - They asked NASA n Scientists for info on how to Keep it as "Real" as Possible.

    2) In Star Wars there are several moments where you see a ship "not right side up" through out it. Heck Han dives between two Stardestoyers that are flying one upside down the other right side up, they nearly collide during Empire Strikes Back.

    3) Reason STO won't go "Real" is CBS, the Space Ships must Always be right side up, as if we sailing on the ocean or something. They're also why we have turn rates like there is "resistance" in space, doesn't match up with physics, but meh it's a Game. There is no "Up" in space, unless you play STO.

    4) As Tacofangs said they try to keep it super Simple for the kids.

    CBS isn't the reason at all... That is misinformation...

    DStahl has told us several times that it was an Internal Decision when They were first designing the game...

    He also said that the engine could handle it if They were to add the appropriate coding...,

    but..., It IS NOT Something that They are planning to ever do.

    Again, using all the examples from other Shows/Movies doesn't mean a hill-of-beans...

    Star Trek portrayed 99% of it's ship flight/battles with the antagonists on the same plane...

    So that is what STO does also.
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • mikewendellmikewendell Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    playhard88 wrote: »
    then u need to rewatch b5 dude...

    That was January-Feburarys series that i watched.

    Wouldn't it have been more constructive to provide an example?
  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    [QUOTE=krell83sto;47011111) Babylon 5 - They asked NASA n Scientists for info on how to Keep it as "Real" as Possible.

    2) In StarWars there are several moments where you see a ship "not right side up" through out it. Heck Han dives between two Stardestoyers that are flying one upside down the other right side up, they nearly collide during Empire Strikes Back.
    [/QUOTE]

    Uh, huh.

    And on Babylon 5, how many times did they show ships "flying upside down" for any extended period of screen time? How often did they portray a true zero gravity environment?

    And yes, Star Wars ships do all kinds of crazy maneuvers. But do they cinematically portray any of those ships flying "upside down" outside of dramatic battle scenes?

    Talk to me about the rule, not the exceptions.

    The movies and TV shows mostly conformed to the normal human expectation of "up" and "down" because most people's brains can't deal with the discrepancy... and an unpleasant viewing experience affects ratings. I can only imagine what it would do to STO's bottom line.
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
    Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
  • podsixpodsix Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    tacofangs wrote: »
    My feelings on the subject is 2 fold:

    1) It's canon. Yes, there are a handful of times in the shows/movies where ships did crazy 3d movements. 99% of the rest of the show, any ships that met in space, were sitting on the same invisible plane, with both of their respective 'ups' pointed in the same direction. This is Star Trek, in Star Trek there IS an up in space.

    2) Full 3D flight, without the benefit of huge landmarks like, say, the ground, can get very disorienting. Don't get me wrong, I love a full 3d Space Sim as much as the next guy (gah! Bring back Freelancer! and Tie Fighter!), but it DOES get confusing, even to me. A newbie, who's only here for the trek, and doesn't have a lot of experience in other space games, can already get overwhelmed in combat as it stands today. Add full 3d movement to that, and you've lost a customer.

    Oh, and btw, Quaternions TRIBBLE with my head constantly. Our sky system uses them for sun movement, and it takes me forever to get something into the position I want it to be.

    I miss playing Descent.
    7n4nvF5.png
  • pete2931pete2931 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    People keep asking for other space shows that showed true space flight. The new series of Battlestar Gallactica came pretty close. I never got disorientated with that. In fact I thought it helped to add to the authentisity and dramaticness of the show.

    Perhaps Cryptic should start running some polls on controversial opinions like this. People keep asking for it but the forums arnt always the best place to see what people think of an idea as not everyone posts.
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    pete2931 wrote: »
    People keep asking for other space shows that showed true space flight. The new series of Battlestar Gallacta came pretty close. I never got disorientated with that. In fact I thought it helped to add to the authentisity and dramaticness of the show.

    Perhaps Cryptic should start running some polls on controversial opinions like this. People keep asking for it but the forums arnt always the best place to see what people think of an idea as not everyone posts.

    Polls would mean that their opinion is at risk of becoming void. They always hide between "what the players want"... If a poll is about something, that what they think is what the players want, and it turns out different, and they would loose face...

    They HATE loosing face... especially when caught red-handed.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • reximuzreximuz Member Posts: 1,172 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I'd be pretty happy if thy would adjust the angle you can go up/down enough so that at maximum up/down angle Dual Heavy cannons can hit a target directly above you.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    tacofangs wrote: »
    My feelings on the subject is 2 fold:

    1) It's canon. Yes, there are a handful of times in the shows/movies where ships did crazy 3d movements. 99% of the rest of the show, any ships that met in space, were sitting on the same invisible plane, with both of their respective 'ups' pointed in the same direction. This is Star Trek, in Star Trek there IS an up in space.

    2) Full 3D flight, without the benefit of huge landmarks like, say, the ground, can get very disorienting. Don't get me wrong, I love a full 3d Space Sim as much as the next guy (gah! Bring back Freelancer! and Tie Fighter!), but it DOES get confusing, even to me. A newbie, who's only here for the trek, and doesn't have a lot of experience in other space games, can already get overwhelmed in combat as it stands today. Add full 3d movement to that, and you've lost a customer.

    Oh, and btw, Quaternions TRIBBLE with my head constantly. Our sky system uses them for sun movement, and it takes me forever to get something into the position I want it to be.


    For balance reasons (yes, really), we need a slightly bigger maximum flight angle as now, though. A common phenomen in PvP is that everyone spirals up - ther eason is that this is the best way to evade dual (heavy) cannon attacks. 45? firing arc + 60? flight angle means that the best angle a dual cannon can reach upwards is 60 + 45/2 = 82.5. That means there is an angle where no matter how maneuverably your ship is, you cannot fire at with DCs.

    Even without this fix, I don't think the spiraling will go away entirely. Up and Down are the only "special" directions in the game where your movement is limited, and that can always give you a smalla dvantage - and if only that it's much harder to get from the respawn if you're 50 km above the spawn point then when you're 50 km in any horizontal direction.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    bluegeek wrote: »
    Uh, huh.

    And on Babylon 5, how many times did they show ships "flying upside down" for any extended period of screen time? How often did they portray a true zero gravity environment?

    And yes, Star Wars ships do all kinds of crazy maneuvers. But do they cinematically portray any of those ships flying "upside down" outside of dramatic battle scenes?

    Talk to me about the rule, not the exceptions.

    The movies and TV shows mostly conformed to the normal human expectation of "up" and "down" because most people's brains can't deal with the discrepancy... and an unpleasant viewing experience affects ratings. I can only imagine what it would do to STO's bottom line.
    Well, that just seems to suggest we should be able to flip a switch and say "Dramatic Battle Scene Reenactment" and enable 360 degree flight angle then. And wouldn't you want your space combat to be dramatic?

    We could call the switch "Red Alert".

    Mustrum "But I really just want that higher flight angle, 75 degrees or so would be entirely sufficient - actually more than necessary" Ridcully
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Well I for one want to fly like a real starship, not like some hot-air balloon with engines and lack of altitude adjustment abilities.

    Edit: Ok, so I should have said zeppelin, it'd save me a lot of typing. But still, lacks any ability to adjust its altitude except by pointing the engines in a direction, and apparently can't point them straight up or down.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • boglejam73boglejam73 Member Posts: 890 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Hey, can we beat some other dead horses in here?

    T5 Connie?
    Seamless Sector Space?
    Quarks bar as a separate instance?

    I'm sure I am forgeting some really well-beaten ones.

    Oh...

    game cluttered with 100 year old ships?
    Lockbox rage?

    Any other pointless threads we can dredge back up? I got tons of time and love a good, slow forum meltdown. :D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mikewendellmikewendell Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    boglejam73 wrote: »
    Any other pointless threads we can dredge back up? I got tons of time and love a good, slow forum meltdown. :D

    Me with the foundry?

    Mobile App?

    Klingon UI?

    Want some more? :)
  • zerobangzerobang Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    tacofangs wrote: »
    My feelings on the subject is 2 fold:

    1) It's canon. Yes, there are a handful of times in the shows/movies where ships did crazy 3d movements. 99% of the rest of the show, any ships that met in space, were sitting on the same invisible plane, with both of their respective 'ups' pointed in the same direction. This is Star Trek, in Star Trek there IS an up in space.

    2) Full 3D flight, without the benefit of huge landmarks like, say, the ground, can get very disorienting. Don't get me wrong, I love a full 3d Space Sim as much as the next guy (gah! Bring back Freelancer! and Tie Fighter!), but it DOES get confusing, even to me. A newbie, who's only here for the trek, and doesn't have a lot of experience in other space games, can already get overwhelmed in combat as it stands today. Add full 3d movement to that, and you've lost a customer.

    Oh, and btw, Quaternions TRIBBLE with my head constantly. Our sky system uses them for sun movement, and it takes me forever to get something into the position I want it to be.



    imho all that is needed for orientation in 3D space is a 3D Radar, worked fine in Wing Commander and so on.

    A 2D Mini Map like STO has it is obviously is not up to the task of giving you 3D information.

    Anyway it's to late in the life of the game now to turn this into a Full 3D flight game.
    I don't buy the *get's confusing* argument, and i counter you with the "gets boring and is unbelievable"-argument


    also the "it's trek" argument... you are aware that you are talking about a TV show that had the bulk of it's episodes made with Pre-CGI Model Shots?
    As soon as they had the Tech, they started to make scenes like this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x38EH0PcxQ#t=1m47s



    but the matter of the fact is that this game is build around a 2D Map system on hundreds of maps now, and it is just to late to turn this boat around now.

    Maybe in STO 2 ...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • kalanikalani Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Me with the foundry?

    Mobile App?

    Klingon UI?

    Want some more? :)

    You forgot the T5 Akira. Even though we eventualy got it that horse cant be any more dead.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • stohansonstohanson Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    dkeith2011 wrote: »
    Babylon 5 was pretty consistent 3d space combat.

    Looooooooooooooved Babylon 5
  • fuforcedpwaccfuforcedpwacc Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    you should try "Black Prophecy" its free full 3d space mmo... first 10-15 levels are VERY confusing before your brain teach orientation in it... but after that its fun and rewarding
  • lordfuzunlordfuzun Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    daveyny wrote: »
    DStahl has told us several times that it was an Internal Decision when They were first designing the game...

    He also said that the engine could handle it if They were to add the appropriate coding...,

    Actually they would have to REMOVE code to give full 3-d flight ability. When you code a base 3-d flight simulator, you get full 3-d movment and camera rotation. Cryptic had to ADD code to limits on the pitch of the ship and the pictch movment of the camera
  • captainconradcaptainconrad Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    eiledon wrote: »
    don't we already have 360 degree flight in the ability to rotate along the plane of flight (and most ships angle in tandem with this turn? plus depending on your ship class an additional arc above and below in the forward/aft direction that to alter the plane of flight. Are you asking for an addition axis of rotation to allow us to spin or upside down or roll in flight?

    Firefly... and on that note, if they made an online game based in that universe, it would probably end up being the best MMO ever created
    Captain_Conrad
    Join Date: October 2009
    STO Start Date: March 2010
    June 2012, assimilated into the PWE collective. Resistance is futile.
  • foundrelicfoundrelic Member Posts: 1,380 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The same reply applies.


    The engine is not designed in a way to alloy this to happen. In order for this to be implemented an entirely new engine needs to be built/installed.

    THis would cost a substantial amount of money and time. Both of which PWE is unwilling to invest for a control change.
  • tankalot42otankalot42o Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    i think as a previous poster suggested, a 75-80 deg up down limit would be wonderful, it would decrease the need to corkscrew a bunch, and add to realism without confusing simple minded folks
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    join date: Jan. 2012
  • maledicus0eumaledicus0eu Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I hope Cryptic will never decide to implement full 3d movement, simply because this game isnt an pure space-action-shooter like x-wing/tie-fighter ( and i really loved this games ). The difference to me is we have a third-person-tactical-space-combat here in STO thats a completely different thing than sitting in a first -person cockpit.

    I cant imagine anyone ( and iam sure someone will come up and tell he/she would love to move a cruiser in full 3d ) who wants to command a cruiser in full 3d, this can just be a idea of some players in hyper-agile tactical ships.

    BUT i wouldn't have any plea against implementing skills with special 3d maneuvers (with cooldowns) driven & executed by the engine itself.

    Cheers,
    Maledicus.
  • pete2931pete2931 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    As mentioned earlier in the thread, I believe Cryptic said that they do have the ability to change it to full 3D flight without too much trouble. They just decided against it in the beginning because it didn't look right. I think with the some of the changes since the beginning and a few modifications the game would be great with a full 3D space flight option.
  • pete2931pete2931 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    As for the dead horses someone mentioned, a load of things that have already been brought up by Cryptic for implementation.

    T5 connie - CBS wont allow it.
    Seemless sector space - They are looking at it for a future season.
    Lockboxes - They are looking at changing them.
    Mobile App - Looking for future development

    More like trying to close (mess with) the stable doors after the horses have bolted.
    The ideas are already out there and decisions have been made as to what will happen with them.
    People are just trying to either let them out when they're already out or shut them in when they're already out.
    As for 3D flight, that horse hasn't bolted yet. It's tied up in the stable by Cryptic because THEY don't think it's a good idea no matter what anyone else thinks. There is still a chance to change their mind as it's not like CBS have said yet that it's not allowed.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I hope Cryptic will never decide to implement full 3d movement, simply because this game isnt an pure space-action-shooter like x-wing/tie-fighter ( and i really loved this games ). The difference to me is we have a third-person-tactical-space-combat here in STO thats a completely different thing than sitting in a first -person cockpit.

    I cant imagine anyone ( and iam sure someone will come up and tell he/she would love to move a cruiser in full 3d ) who wants to command a cruiser in full 3d, this can just be a idea of some players in hyper-agile tactical ships.

    BUT i wouldn't have any plea against implementing skills with special 3d maneuvers (with cooldowns) driven & executed by the engine itself.

    Cheers,
    Maledicus.

    As a matter of fact, I -will- fly a cruiser like that if that's what it takes. In fact, I got some ships that are widely regarded as flying whales in my reserves - Odyssey (free), Bortas, Vo'Quv. In fact, I even fly the Vo'Quv and love it and would like nothing better than to fly my Vo'Quv and my Luna and my Defiant just like the Defiant is -supposed- to be flying, and that means like a fighter. (Okay, so the Vo'Quv is a bit too big to fly like that, but it can still fly 3D, and I've pretty much fitted the Luna so that it turns on a dime)

    Edit: Also, have you ever TRIED flying TPS 3D? I did, and it was in fact better than FPS due to actually SEEING what was going on around my ship rather than just in front of it. In fact, I even mastered such flight with ships that actually DO realistically turn around (stated the required SWBF2 mod in an earlier post).

    Re-edit: And for that matter, some SWBF1 maps also have enough room to maneuver, despite the awkward fact that SWBF1 starfighters, unlike their later SWBF2 incarnations, have no automated maneuvers - no speed burst, no 180 degree turn maneuver, no quick evasive maneuvers (a quick rolling maneuver, sending you left or right)

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • wotertoolwotertool Member Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I would love a Full 3D Flight System like in Star Trek Invasion.

    And when they would introduce it in the futur, I hope with Up and Down shields. Then it would make much more sense to turn a cruiser around.

    I support the idea, beacuse you can use much more tactics and strategies to atack the enemies!
  • captainconradcaptainconrad Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    tacofangs wrote: »
    My feelings on the subject is 2 fold:

    1) It's canon. Yes, there are a handful of times in the shows/movies where ships did crazy 3d movements. 99% of the rest of the show, any ships that met in space, were sitting on the same invisible plane, with both of their respective 'ups' pointed in the same direction. This is Star Trek, in Star Trek there IS an up in space.

    2) Full 3D flight, without the benefit of huge landmarks like, say, the ground, can get very disorienting. Don't get me wrong, I love a full 3d Space Sim as much as the next guy (gah! Bring back Freelancer! and Tie Fighter!), but it DOES get confusing, even to me. A newbie, who's only here for the trek, and doesn't have a lot of experience in other space games, can already get overwhelmed in combat as it stands today. Add full 3d movement to that, and you've lost a customer.

    Oh, and btw, Quaternions TRIBBLE with my head constantly. Our sky system uses them for sun movement, and it takes me forever to get something into the position I want it to be.

    What about 180 degree flight? I remember they had that in Star Trek Legacy and it worked well. You couldn't roll or do anything super crazy, but the ability to fly vertically "up" and "down" made for some interesting gameplay. This would also kill the advantage for quicker ships that tend to park "above" players and blow them away with the "higher" ground advantage. Instead if someone tries that, just point strait "up." This would also prevent the escort tactic of parking behind a large cruiser and blowing it away.

    I'm saying this because for this game it's completely doable and would satisfy enough of us that the matter wouldn't be brought up again for a while
    Captain_Conrad
    Join Date: October 2009
    STO Start Date: March 2010
    June 2012, assimilated into the PWE collective. Resistance is futile.
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I am telling you... Cryptic dosent know how to do it.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • intruderxxxintruderxxx Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    This is something that is necessary in the game as this is a 3d game .

    -There are allot of player that would say you cant make a loop with a 1000m long ship , but they forger Structural Integrity Fields that holds ships together when accelerating/decelerating from warp .

    -Then you have the players saying it will be disorienting : we have now autolevel on beam and pitch axes , that means that when you release the controls the ship will autolevel to XY plane at you current z location (height).

    - To have better emotes you could add an option to disable autolevel (bu this will not affect gameplay at all .)

    - to have 6 quadrants to the shields will be a bit triky and harder to implement because of 2 things ( please corect me if i am wrong ) : 1 most ships that i have seen in StarTrek had 4 shields quadrants ( the front extended over the ventral side and the back extended over the dorsal side of the ship ) , 2: is will be harder to control the shields and might requier new tech .

    Adding the full 3d flight would help this game in allowing players to naturally attack from every direction , and breaking some of the existing PVP tactics , and , adding much more .

    As for those worrying about a Oddy or any large ship doing it will be unwise because the will lose weaponds bearing on some of the ships , and it will take too long , and it will be unwise .
  • pwecangetlostpwecangetlost Member Posts: 538 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    anazonda wrote: »
    I am telling you... Cryptic dosent know how to do it.

    Oh, Anazonda, please never leave the sto forums.


    Consider it in the way that Star Trek has always been nautical. They've usually been more similar to this style, where two large ships pull alongside each other and start blasting each other. And in the sea, there is an up and a down. I'm not saying for a second its realistic, its just how Star trek has tended to be done, with exception from small, light craft like the Defiant or fighters.
    Even in Star Wars, the large ships all face off against each other. In fact, in episode 3, all the ships pull alongside each other and start blasting each other with cannons. Its largely done because its easier to comprehend as it is a perspective that is easier to relate to.
Sign In or Register to comment.