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Suggestion to improve starship combat (mechanics/'trek-ness')
cmdrskyfaller
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Devs,
Please consider the following changes to improve the game's 'trek' feel and enhance starship combat experience.
1- Reduce the damage output of weapons by half.
2- Increase the regeneration rate of shields by 2x the current rate. (shield stats)
3- Reduce the performance multiplier of boff abilities and capt. abilities by half.
4- Reduce speed of all ships by half.
5- Remove 'full impulse' speed setting from the game. - Have 'evasive maneuvers' be the speed burst ability for all ships and have evasive maneuvers drain all power from weapons and aux (not shields or engine) and put it into engine itself.
6- Reduce the number of 'mk' equipment performance so that there is for once a visible performance gap between equipment types. For example, rather than having Mk1 to Mk12 have only Mk 1, Mk 4, Mk 8 and Mk12. See #8 for what replaces the Mk's in between these.
(no, this isn't crazy talk... now you'll see why)
7- Increase the effect of power settings on weapons/speed/etc by 4x. This will make power setting management the KEY to starship combat. Its trek-like and it makes combat tremendously more fun.
8- Add 'flavor' versions of equipment in between the Mk equipment. For example, Mk 2 and 3 equipment will have the same primary function stats as the Mk1 except they will have the equipment's secondary and tertiary function greatly enhanced. A good example would be a Disruptor weapon. Mk1 will do say 100 damage. Mk2 will be 100 damage but have a very high chance (10% chance) of proc for the secondary effect (10% resist debuff). Mk3 will do 100 damage and have the same Mk1 2.5% chance to proc but the disable buff is greatly increased (to 20%). Mk3 will have the same Base Mk1 stats except the debuff effect lasts twice as long. The Mk4 will jump up in damage to 200 and so on and on.
9- Increase the penalty to turn rate based on ship's speed setting.
These changes will do several things:
It will remove the current dps-centric , in-your-face-blasting type of starship combat and replace it with a trek-like combat environment. Captains will be changing their power levels constantly as the situation requires and since the benefits of said power level increases would be greatly increased from current levels it will allow the ROLE and NICHE of each ship class to truly shine.
It will replace the 'all gear is TRIBBLE except STF & Mk10 and above' reality as equipment performance will for once be truly different from the Mk above/below it. For once, people might choose to equip a Mk12 regenerative shield with x2 or x3 regen stat rather than a Maco shield because the effect of the regen stat when used with the 4x shield regen bonus from full shield power level would be much more beneficial to some ships than the special bonuses from the Maco shield.
The change in speeds changes the 'visibility' and 'immersion' of combat from a rush-by-shooter (arcade style) that it currently is to a more trek-like visual combat...and enables tactical shield-facing and maneuvering tactics to come into play. In short, it would be similar to how the Tier 1 ships fly and fight (which -IS- very trek-like in my opinion and its in the later tiers that ships become stupidly fast and arcade-ish).
Please consider the following changes to improve the game's 'trek' feel and enhance starship combat experience.
1- Reduce the damage output of weapons by half.
2- Increase the regeneration rate of shields by 2x the current rate. (shield stats)
3- Reduce the performance multiplier of boff abilities and capt. abilities by half.
4- Reduce speed of all ships by half.
5- Remove 'full impulse' speed setting from the game. - Have 'evasive maneuvers' be the speed burst ability for all ships and have evasive maneuvers drain all power from weapons and aux (not shields or engine) and put it into engine itself.
6- Reduce the number of 'mk' equipment performance so that there is for once a visible performance gap between equipment types. For example, rather than having Mk1 to Mk12 have only Mk 1, Mk 4, Mk 8 and Mk12. See #8 for what replaces the Mk's in between these.
(no, this isn't crazy talk... now you'll see why)
7- Increase the effect of power settings on weapons/speed/etc by 4x. This will make power setting management the KEY to starship combat. Its trek-like and it makes combat tremendously more fun.
8- Add 'flavor' versions of equipment in between the Mk equipment. For example, Mk 2 and 3 equipment will have the same primary function stats as the Mk1 except they will have the equipment's secondary and tertiary function greatly enhanced. A good example would be a Disruptor weapon. Mk1 will do say 100 damage. Mk2 will be 100 damage but have a very high chance (10% chance) of proc for the secondary effect (10% resist debuff). Mk3 will do 100 damage and have the same Mk1 2.5% chance to proc but the disable buff is greatly increased (to 20%). Mk3 will have the same Base Mk1 stats except the debuff effect lasts twice as long. The Mk4 will jump up in damage to 200 and so on and on.
9- Increase the penalty to turn rate based on ship's speed setting.
These changes will do several things:
It will remove the current dps-centric , in-your-face-blasting type of starship combat and replace it with a trek-like combat environment. Captains will be changing their power levels constantly as the situation requires and since the benefits of said power level increases would be greatly increased from current levels it will allow the ROLE and NICHE of each ship class to truly shine.
It will replace the 'all gear is TRIBBLE except STF & Mk10 and above' reality as equipment performance will for once be truly different from the Mk above/below it. For once, people might choose to equip a Mk12 regenerative shield with x2 or x3 regen stat rather than a Maco shield because the effect of the regen stat when used with the 4x shield regen bonus from full shield power level would be much more beneficial to some ships than the special bonuses from the Maco shield.
The change in speeds changes the 'visibility' and 'immersion' of combat from a rush-by-shooter (arcade style) that it currently is to a more trek-like visual combat...and enables tactical shield-facing and maneuvering tactics to come into play. In short, it would be similar to how the Tier 1 ships fly and fight (which -IS- very trek-like in my opinion and its in the later tiers that ships become stupidly fast and arcade-ish).
![http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg[/SIGPIC]](http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
Post edited by cmdrskyfaller on
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oh and imagine an odyssey or dreadnaught flying at full speed with your proposed changes. Their turn rate is already that of lunar orbit....
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
You need to rethink the maths, if that's your goal, especially for PvE & STFs.
STFs are largely excercises in wearing down a huge target with huge HP as soon as possible. Your changes to the DPS and subsystem energy mechanic have actually increased the damage a weapon will do at 125 power, unbuffed.
(This model excludes skill points, cos you've not touched them)
Under the current system, weapons do their indicated damage at 50 weapons power, ex buffs, and does double their indicated damage at 100 weapon power.
So a DHC with 500 DPS will do that 500 DPS at 50, 1000 DPS at 100 weapon power (200% of displayed), and 1250 at 125 weapons power (250% of displayed). So each 1 point of weapons power changes it by 2%. You make that 4x as effective, and each 1 point of weapons power will change the DPS by 8%. Now okay, the same DHC will now only do 250 DPS at 50 weap. power, cos you've halved it. But crank it up to 125, and that DHC now does 1750 DPS (900% of displayed), unbuffed.
Incidentally, weapons would do 0 damage from a power setting of 37 or lower. So energy drain is now absurdly OP.
And you've increased regen-rates, not changed resistances, and not changed HP for shields, so they get this with no sacrifice in resilience. And actually, since they now have more unbuffed DPS to play with, they could sacrifice maybe 10 weapon power, put it into shields and get 4x the benefit that they'd get now.
I know you've halved the effectiveness of BOff powers, which will take a big chunk out of spike damage, but, against large targets in STFs that don't die to one Alpha strike (or even 3 or 4) and require sustained damage, DPS builds are still going to be king.
Where it would have a huge effect is on PvP, but possibly too far in the other direction. Atm, shield regeneration is upped by 4% for every point above 50 (again excluding skills, buffs etc), which'd turn into 16% on your model. That, coupled with you already doubling the regen rate, means you could have six times (I think) as much shield regen at 100 power as you can have now. Now, I know shield regen only procs every 6 seconds and as such is not relevent in PvP currently, but shield power also effects your ships damage resist, which will protect you from an Alpha strike. Although I don't have stats for that, so I can't crunch the maths. Some people with more PvP experience than me might be able to provide a more educated comment.
tl;dr, multiplying the effectiveness of subsystem power levels by 4 would be ridiculous. You'd probably have to rescale them seperately from each other and rethink their effects.
But honestly, if there was ever going to be such a change to space combat as the one you've suggested, skills, NPC abilities, BOff abilities, ship stats, would all have to be fundementally rebuilt and rebalanced. That's half of the gameplay in its entireity being redesigned. Not likely to happen.
Also, I don't think the space combat is actually that bad itself. I find the biggest problem is that the NPCs are dumb, damage sponges.
You make good points however you are trying to put the math into the suggestion. I mention 'by half' meaning a significant reduction in its overall performance.
Yes, I am aware the power settings modify everything by a good margin currently... but the problem is the bridge officer abilities are INSTANT heals and INSTANT damage... that is what is killing the combat in the game.
If I run my ship with just 50 aux I can still expect a damn good instant shield heal just by clicking a button. Nowhere in star trek did you ever see a 'QUICK GEORDI! CLICK THE BUTTON TO GET ALL OUR SHIELDS BACK!' type of combat. Shields regenerated and in this game that doesn't happen ..they are insta-healed nonstop during combat.
By reducing the potency of weapons and of these heals and increasing the effect power levels have will change combat into a trek-like combat situation.
Shields would be tough to bring down if the defender has very high shield settings... but in return that high shield setting also means he cannot allocate that much power to other systems.
If defender's aux is very low then his heals, already nipped in half by the suggested change, would be neigh useless.
If his engine power levels are low then the attacking ship can literally maneuver and fly circles around him and keep hitting the same shield facing.
if his weapon power is low then he really cant fight back that well with energy weapons.
Since speeds would be cut down significantly the ability for ships to run in and out of range is null (and trek-like)..even escorts. It becomes a tactical game of maneuvering and power settings control and teamwork.
Ship stats do not have to be changed at all. Only the item stats. Boff abilities only need be changed in their effect and as we know, cryptic is quite proficient at nerfing them on a regular basis so it can be done without much fuss. NPC abilities yes would need to have their stuff changed but not by much... know why? The code is already there. The game literally uses levels to assign how much hull/armor/damage the npcs do. Finding the level that matches the lowered-down-abilities/stats of player ships is all that needs to be done & set the NPC to those new level equivalents. Its not going to be a massive complete re-write of the npc database.
Once again, this type of gameplay exists in the game already. Its similar to what you experience in the first 10 levels of the game. Its just that the game for some reason just stacks bonuses on everything nonstop all the way to level 50 making the game more and more and more arcadish and less trek-like.
Combat is just fine as it is. For example Federation has taken all best technologies and used it on small ship that is designed only for 1 purpose - to be a destroyer (Defiant)
I am enjoying solo missions where that small ship destroys everything in seconds (with proper skill and CDs ofc)
That is the essence of playing a damage dealer, you are suggesting a combat to be slow, that is boring man. Numbers are fine as they are right now...powers too...
The only thing that this game is missing are MORE damn STFs which are so damn epic but we get only few...
And a dual spec... (If any staff member reads this - do something about this its about time...)
Every single space related number and mechanic would have to be re-tuned to compensate. They might as well just throw 33% of the game out and start fresh. Your basically asking for an entirely new game.
Have you looked at any of the numbers you have proposed and actually done some math? Reduce by half, reduce by half, reduce by half, 4x this, 2x that. Its madness!
Tanky ships would be completely invincible, The only ships that could possible do damage are escorts and science vessels with incredibly overpowered AUXx9999 science abilities. No one would ever die in PvP, Even if the entire team focused one person, Because the lowered damage, shield regen, and 4x as powerful aux/shield powers.
STFs and Bosses/Events would take HOURS, travelling between objectives would take way too long for anyone to keep interest in the game.
Absolutely no offense to you personally, but what do you actually hope to accomplish with this outlandish numbers? How much STO have you played? How much theory crafting have you participated in? I don't personally see a reason for any of this, other then to otherwise ruin a perfectly good game. (Not to imply there aren't many improvements that could be made, or balance issues, but certainly nothing good would come of this)
Because you are proposing a more "realistic" feel to the combat, we would need to see a more realistic approach to the enemies we face as well.
For example, currently you enter a system, and you might face 5-7 groups of enemy ships, with anywhere from 1-3 ships in the group.
Based on your proposal, the enemies would need to change as such that you might face a maximum of 5-7 enemy ships in any given star system, with a maximum grouping of 3 ships for the weakest of enemies but more commonly a group of 2, perhaps one weak ship and one moderate ship, and heavier, more powerful ships would always be solo.
The idea being, that based on your proposal, within the current system, we'd spend an inordinate amount of time blasting away at armadas of worthless peons, and the real combat against heavier duty foes would take forever. Therefore, to maintain the ratio of time spent in a system to current time spent, the number of enemies would need to be reduced, if reducing our base combat effectiveness.
And for the record, this is not the first time an idea like this has been proposed. But, that being said, it seems the really good ideas just keep coming back.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Is already the Key dude, if you are not having a key bind for each power set up you are doing very wrong, furthermore power management is constantly changing during combat is because EPS consoles are so usefull.
None taken. This is a discussion board and this is a discussion. For the record I've been in this game way before it went free to play. If you were in the game back then you would know that what I'm proposing here is almost identical to what the game was before the free to play dumbing down of the game into the current arcade shooter it is today.
You misunderstand me. The effect that the power levels have on the current boff abilities is important but not decisive. For example in my odyssey I can run the ship at a constant 25 AUX (up to 40'ish with skill bonuses/gear) and receive an almost full shield heal with science team 2 or 3. More importantly, since the effect is so strong and the timers so short that one can cycle them, I can simply perma-spam the shield heal just to keep my shields topped out.
...which if you have not realized by now is one of the things you face in PVP: people running one-key macros that do all the heal abilities and buffs and what not...and they just keep mashing that key the entire fight.
By reducing boff ability potency and shifting it to the power settings will return player skill to the game not macro-spamming. Also it changes the nature of combat from being a perma-spam of powerful instant heals to a 'regenerative' healing system...
why do you think science's 'transfer shield strength' is not used as a primary heal? Its useless in combat since it takes too long to recover the shield and prevent your hull from being thumped. Science team may heal less overall shield amount but it brings up a huge chunk of the shield to be a buffer..and usually lasts long enough for the sci team to be usable again.
Unfortunately the game engine does not allow it but I agree.
Usually as soon as the handicap is overcome, the cruiser wins quickly.
You are forgoting shield resistance buffs science team is a good shield healer and anti sci debuffer but it does not gives you shield resistance, however TSS gives you a hig shield heal over time + shield damage resistance and works really nice with TT plus maybe if you engi RSF + having auxiliary and emmiters maxed will help and after use it rising shield power is recomended and we come again to power management .
Again, the point is the instant heal > higher heal amount over time+resists and whatever combo you can think of to use with it.
The fact that in an elite stf or in pvp your shields can go from nearly full to completely gone in one hit. When that happens (which is too common) the only thing that will save your bacon is having hitpoints IN the shield to buffer the next hit. Shield regen does not provide that.. your ship will explode before the shield regen (even with max shield power setting + TSS3) does anything.
The weapons in the game and the boff abilities do too much damage and heal too much with the instant abilities...making the 'regen' type heals irrelevant. And we come back to the arcade-type combat that is present now vs the tactical combat that existed pre-f2p.
what you see on the shows/movies doesn't necessarily mean they'll translate into good gameplay.
imo, i feel that the devs have captured the balance between "trek-ness" and solid gameplay.
Most of what the OP proposes is pure numbers, which can be changed around in a spreadsheet, usually "en masse". The Full Impulse suggestion I both agree/disagree with, in the sense that NOT having the ability will make it alot slower to complete random PVE missions. Can't allow "in-system warp" since there's no warping while in a solarsystem.
The Mk I-XII suggestion, should be reduced in half imho. Nobody really gears their ships in Mk I, Mk III, Mk V, Mk VII or Mk IX gear. Everyone tends to go for the better even-numbered equipment. A better suggestion, may be to remove all gear between Mk I and Mk X, and simply make the weapons/gear "scale with level". Gear you obtain via mission rewards may still be superior to your scaled item, but again, would scale as you level up.
I agree wholeheartedly on the suggestions to "half all damage" in the game and "increase shield regeneration". Sure it's nice to crit for 20k+ on a Beam Overload, but it's not really Trek. Trek battles tend to be rather lengthy as long as shields are in place, whereby most battles end in either a surrender or retreat. Neither of which is possible in STO.
Trek battles don't tend to have much in the way of active healing powers, very much unlike STO
Matthew/Shiduri@zekesulastin
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
But there's one Trek change they could do... is that with the more damage enemies do to you, the better chance that systems will fail (read: unusable). So if you don't use Hazard Emitters before, you might lose it when you really need it...
They could still keep the repair-on-the-spot aspect though (going back all the time for repairs would be boring), just extend it to systems instead of just the hull.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Sorry but you have nearly 0 idea how to play this game if you say that because EPS, TSS are the more used shield skills at all and usually you dont use them when you lose all your shield you are runing them even before to get those resistance in the work, and i understand perfectly why you say ''The fact that in an elite stf or in pvp your shields can go from nearly full to completely gone'' only hapens when you use sci team and dont back up with shield resistence , that fact is a fact for you, never hapens to me unless i run out of powers to use.
For any of the cruiser based shows, we never really saw actual combat. We saw the cruiser crippled in some fashion, and much of the 'battle' consisting of the cruiser trying RP/technobabbling a solution.
For DS9, we did see DPS-centric fast paced battles. The Defiant seemed to spend large portions of battles with the shields down or barely up, relying on its armor.
I am not sure what the speed of ships has to do with anything either, since that is completely arbirtary, and there are plenty of examples of the Enterprise, Voyager, the Defiant, whatever going from zero to strategic warp instantly. They certainly could go to warp in system, or else the whole 'slingshot time travel' technique would have been completely impossible.
In short, I don't think these changes would make this game any more 'Trek.'
Part of the draw, enticement or excitement of STO's space combat system is that it is NOT a simulation of a starship space battle as represented on TV and in the movies.
The balance that the Cryptic devs have struck with their design and representation of space combat hits that "sweet spot" of enjoyment for me. Space combat is the MAJOR draw for me to STO.
While I can understand the "want" or "need" some people have for more "trek-ness" in STO, I really don't want it to be any more trek-like.
For instance, how often in any of the ST series or movies did you see 5 ships come together that would then beam down the 5 captains to do an away mission? That's not trek-like, but it is a part of the STO MMORPG.
How often did you see ANY other Federation fleet mentioned outside of Starfleet? There were no 1st, 3rd, 512th, TopSecretSquirrelTemporalPlacementAgency, etc fleets ever mentioned in ST that my limited 47 years of memory with ST can remember. Maybe Nova Squadron at the Academy? Whenever "fleet" was mentioned, they were referring to Starfleet and not John Q. Public's Uber-Elitest-Top-Dawg-PvP fleet.
Oh, and in ST, there were no re-spawns (except Spock) or do-overs.
In other words and IMO, clearly established in dialogue that a couple of Rom cruisers are capable of obliterating a Galaxy (the pride of Starfleet, at that point) in 30 seconds or less with a combined alpha strike.
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