Excelsior Retro VS Star Cruiser for Tanking

burstdragon323 · June 2012

As Title Says, which would be better?

danqueller · June 2012

It would depend on what BOFF layout you would have. The Excelsior requires 1 Tac, 3 Eng, and 1 Sci, while the Star Cruiser requires 1 Tac, 2 Eng, and 2 Sci.

Assuming you are going to adjust your BOFF setup to match, or have the Officers to fill either ship, the Star Cruiser comes out better for Tanking due to its additional Ens Science slot and extra Sci console. This translates to more Shielding (with a Field Generator console) and an additional Ensign Science ability such as Polarize Hull.

The Excelsior is designed to be a more balanced design. It can tank very well, but it is meant to have more offense than the Star Cruiser at the cost of a loss in maximum tanking potential, even when compared to ships like the Galaxy-R. This is the same tradeoff the Assault Cruiser makes, and it works for both ships for their roles. However, if you are only interested in tanking ability, I would say the Star Cruiser comes out the winner.

sovakofvulcan · June 2012

To be honest with you if you are looking to tank the best choices would be an odyssey or a star cruiser as the excelsior is bent toward the term "Assault" Cruiser and thus has more to offer in the offensive role.

shimmerless · June 2012

The Excel is an odd ship with an (AFAIK) unique layout. For a PvP cross-healer there are better choices (and other players would be far more qualified to help you there), but it can do an admirable job nonetheless; its main drawback is the average-at-best Sci setup. Basically the Excel's Lt. Com Tactical slot is a wildcard that drastically changes the way the ship plays.

mustrumridcully0 · June 2012

I have not experimented with this yet, but one thing to consider is that thanks to Technician (?) DOFFs, people only need 1 Engineering Team now instead of two. It could very well be that this makes the loss of one Lt.Cmdr Engineering slot irrelevant. You can still fit 2 Emergency Powers, 1 Engineering Team, an Aux2SIF and an Extend Shields this way, though you will have to take a somewhat lower level version of one of these skills.

rayezilla · June 2012

Star cruiser tank here. In my experience, the star cruiser is an amazingly durable ship, but really wilts in the damage/aggro area. with 9 ranks in threat control and FAW2, I sometimes still cannot hold aggro. And if I'm not holding aggro, then only 1/2 of my abilities 'work.' In case you're curious, here's my star cruiser build:

7 AP 1 torp

2 borg 2 MACO mk12

tac LT: tac team, FAW2

eng commander: EPTS1, RSP1, Extend Shields, Aux2SIF

Eng LT COMM: EPTS1, RSP1, Aceton Beam

Sci LT: HE1, TSS

Sci Ensign: Sci Team

quiscustodiet · June 2012

Well, the Vanguard has better survivability, but the Excelsior trumps it in threat generation.
Secret option 3: if you've got 1600 c-points to use on an Excelsior, you could splurge 400 more and get one of the 3 Odysseys.
Survivability-wise, it's probably Odyssey Ops>Odyssey Science>Odyssey Tac, threat gen-wise it's probably Odyssey Science>Odyssey Tac>Odyssey Ops; making the Odyssey Science the best of the 3 overall, but all 3 can be excellent tanks.

rayezilla · June 2012

sci odyssey is a fantastic recommendation. If it wasn't for S6 coming out eventually with a Sovereign Refit, I would have bought the Scioddy a few weeks ago right when I hit the level cap.

danqueller · June 2012

Note that comparing the Star Cruiser to the Excelsior isn't altogether a good idea. One is a dilithium ship you can get for free (via leveling) that is built to have a Science emphasis, and thus a very good ability to tank, while the other is a C-Store ship you have to pay real money (or huge amounts of dilithium) to get that has a general emphasis, and thus a better ability to do damage at the expense of a lower tanking ability. Unless you have another C-Store ship you might be considering, if you have the resources to get either ship, you will probably end up buying both, so a decision isn't as necessary.

Comparing it to the Assault Cruiser might have been better, as both are dilithium ships that you might have to choose between, and the Assault Cruiser performs very much like an Excelsior (minus the Transwarp Drive ).

To sum up...if you don't have the C-Points for an Excelsior, you don't really have a choice between the two. If you do have the C-Points and want the Excelsior, then you can get both. If you have the C-Points, but don't want to get the Excelsior, then you can choose between the Assault Cruiser and Star Cruiser.

reginamala78 · June 2012

For pure tanking, note that while a Star Cruiser can do paired EPTS3, an Excelsior can't. Plus with the extra ensign slot being science instead of engineering, and at the ensign level there is a lot more you can do with an extra sci than an extra eng.

kenshi6767 · June 2012

I am a relative noob, so here goes....

"a Star Cruiser can do paired EPTS3"

Can you run 2 of the same ability? I here people talking about this, but don't quite get it.
Dosen't the cooldown negate the copy?

How can i do this? lol

trimenranger1 · June 2012

Yeah someone fill me in too.

If EPTS3 is a 30 second buff with a 30 second cool down, why have 2? do they stack?

reginamala78 · June 2012

You alternate between them, so when one is on cooldown the other is active, giving you the effect of that power being always active. A lot of cruisers run paired Emergency To Shields, or escorts running paired Tactical Teams (not quite always-on there, but close), and so forth.

rayezilla · June 2012

Let me make the EPTS/W thing a little more clear. When you use EPTS, you get a 30 second buff that reduces incoming damage and increases shield power (and therefore regeneration). The cooldown on a single EPTS is 45 seconds. When you use EPTS, if you have another copy of EPTS, that copy only goes on a 30 second cooldown. That means that as soon as the 30 second buff from EPTS copy 1 wears off, the second copy of EPTS will be ready to activate.

Effectively, using two copies of EPTS lets you keep the EPTS power setting and damage reduction *indefinitely.*

Now, you want a real brain bender, it's possible to run 2 EPTS *AND* 2 EPTW

carl103 · June 2012

rayezilla wrote: »

Now, you want a real brain bender, it's possible to run 2 EPTS *AND* 2 EPTW

Care to explain how as i've never got this to work myself, I can come pretty close with around 75% uptim on both, but i see 100% uptime on one as far more valuble.

rayezilla · June 2012

theoretically after you get it started, you should be able to have both going all the time. So lets start with the original EPTSx2 approach I described in my last post. Every 30 seconds you're using an EPTS, buff lasts 30 seconds, 100% uptime.

Now, when you use EPTS, if you have a copy of EPTW, EPTW goes on a 15 second cooldown. So it's like this:

0 seconds: EPTS copy 1 used (EPTS goes on 30 second, EPTW goes on 15)
15 seconds: EPTW copy 1 used, (EPTS goes on 15 second CD, EPTW goes on 30 second)
30 seconds: EPTS copy 2 used, (EPTS does on 30 seoncd CD, EPTW goes on 15 second)
45 seconds: EPTW copy 2 used, (EPTS goes on 15 second cd, EPTW goes on 30 second)
60 seconds: EPTS copy 1 used again.

I know that's a lot to digest, but that system will allow you to get pretty reliable uptime on both abilities.

chrizla · July 2012

I fly an Excelsior refit, and find it's a great all-rounder. I tried using a star cruiser for a few missions, but ended up going back to the Excelsior. It just couldn't put up with the kind of punishment, or deal it iself, that I was used to.

toiva · July 2012

rayezilla wrote: »

theoretically after you get it started, you should be able to have both going all the time. So lets start with the original EPTSx2 approach I described in my last post. Every 30 seconds you're using an EPTS, buff lasts 30 seconds, 100% uptime.

Now, when you use EPTS, if you have a copy of EPTW, EPTW goes on a 15 second cooldown. So it's like this:

0 seconds: EPTS copy 1 used (EPTS goes on 30 second, EPTW goes on 15)
15 seconds: EPTW copy 1 used, (EPTS goes on 15 second CD, EPTW goes on 30 second)
30 seconds: EPTS copy 2 used, (EPTS does on 30 seoncd CD, EPTW goes on 15 second)
45 seconds: EPTW copy 2 used, (EPTS goes on 15 second cd, EPTW goes on 30 second)
60 seconds: EPTS copy 1 used again.

I know that's a lot to digest, but that system will allow you to get pretty reliable uptime on both abilities.

Exactly that, it it weren't for the activation time (most abilities have like 0,5s), and assuming you were able to manually activate them at the exact moments they come of CD, you could run the powers indefinitely.

Note 1: the first 15s, only one power is active, since then, you have both until you stop reactivating them. So choose wisely by which power you start.

Note 2: Damage control engineer DOFFs give a chance to reduce the CD by one third, meaning that the one Emergency power, once activated, might end up with only a CD of 30s (equal to the duration of the power itself). Given you can slot up to 3 damage control engineers, this "proc" can be very likely to happen. With 3 purple ones, there's almost certainty the CD is gonna get lowered. You can then cycle only 2 different Emergency powers with almost constant uptime.
This can be useful in case you have active doff slots to spare, and not enough engineering boff slots available. (It isn't as reliable as Development scientists/Maintenance engineers/some-Conn officers that always reduce the CD of Science team/Engineering team/Tactical team respectively, though.)

trimenranger1 · July 2012

With soo many ships to choose from I desgined all my cruisers to fill specialized roles, The Doffs I run on my cruisers are

Ops Odessey:
2 reduce bridge officer ability[blue],[blue]
1 chance enhance all power on use of emergy power X[puple]
1 chance to reduce timer on beam specials[blue]
1 reduce torpedo reload time[purple]

Tac Odessy
1 reduce bridge officer ability[blue]
1 chance enhance all power on use of emergy power to X[puple]
1 chance to reduce timer on Cannon specials[purple]
2 reduce torpedo reload time[purple]

Science Odessy
2 reduce bridge officer ability[blue],[blue]
2 chance enhance all power on use of emergy power to X[puple],[green]
1 chance to reduce timer on target subsytems [blue]

Gal-X
1 reduce bridge officer ability[blue]
1 chance enhance all power on use of emergy power to X[puple]
1 chance to reduce timer on Cannon specials[purple]
1 reduce torpedo reload time[purple]
1 chance to reduce timer on tactical team [blue]

Gal-R
1 reduce bridge officer ability[blue],
2 chance enhance all power on use of emergy power to X[puple],[green]
2 chance to reduce timer on Beam Specials[blue],[green]

Soverign
1 reduce bridge officer ability[blue]
2 chance enhance all power on use of emergy power to X[puple],[grren]
1 chance to reduce timer on Cannon specials[purple]
1 reduce torpedo reload time[purple]

Excelsior Retro VS Star Cruiser for Tanking

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