Pesty, you either didn't read your own quote, or didn't critically think about it.
It would mean that Starfleet had only the Constitution/Starship-class as a frontline vessel. They have nothing else to compare to it in terms of armament, facilities and the ability to operate independently of a base for an extended period of time. And it's stated in the series that there are only 12 such vessels in service (which is probably also a mistake, given that every other ship in the series is a Constitution). Now, how likely is it that you could maintain an interstellar government, bordering at least two hostile powers, with only 12 ships of the order of size & resources as the Enterprise? Especially given that the Klingons are shown to put 8 ships (vs. one Enterprise) into a single engagment in Errand of Mercy? If there are only 12 frontline vessels, how are Starfleet able to spare 5 of them to test the M-5 computer?
Doesn't make any sense. That's why it's been retconned and that's why they stopped using the term "Starship" like that from the movies on.
Like I said, if you take everything in terms of names, technical details, timelines, science etc. on screen at face value, Star Trek is full of contradictions.
The 12 ship reference, if you go back and watch TOS refered to 12 ships with orders to undertake a 5 year missions, of which the Enterprise was the only one to return entact and manned, thus giving a successful completion to the mission... in no context in the TOS series was it implied that Starfleet only made 12 ships of the Starship Class.. the reference was to the Original 12 ships of the line.. Don't forget that the Enterprise was over 18 years old when Kirk got her.. She was first captained by Robert April from 2245 to 2251, then Christopher Pike from 2251 to 2263, and Kirk commanded her from 2263 to 2269 and then she underwent the major refit and recieved the re-designation of Enterprise Class.
but this is getting way off topic..
the ships have different dedications as I listed before.. they are not all Constitution class..
but for simplistics:
CBS doesn't want the TOS hull as a T5... I don't see where CBS stated anything about limiting the TMP hull. It would be nice to see the TMP hull as a T5.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
The 12 ship reference, if you go back and watch TOS refered to 12 ships with orders to undertake a 5 year missions, of which the Enterprise was the only one to return entact and manned, thus giving a successful completion to the mission... in no context in the TOS series was it implied that Starfleet only made 12 ships of the Starship Class.. the reference was to the Original 12 ships of the line..
Wow, you are so far wrong. The quote is from Tomorrow is Yesterday, none of that is stated or even implied. Kirk's quote was 'There are only 12 like it in the fleet.' 9:30 into the episode. To me that says 12 Constitution class ships, ymmv on the exact meaning, but you are reading way way way more into it than there is.
Wow, you are so far wrong. The quote is from Tomorrow is Yesterday, none of that is stated or even implied. Kirk's quote was 'There are only 12 like her in the fleet.' To me that says 12 Constitution class ships, but ymmv on the exact meaning, but you are reading way way way more into it than there is.
TOS "The Cage", the Ensign on the ground tells the lady "Our new Starships can go ..", this was presumably mid way through Pikes 2nd 5 year mission, after the Enterprise had her 3rd overhaul. The Enterprise underwent a good refit prior to Pike's 2nd 5 year mission going from 260 crew to over 400 AKA, the upgrades practically made the old hull a "new Starship"as referenced in the quote.
The Enterprise also underwent a year of refit when Kirk got command of her in 2263 (mission started 2264).. AKA upgrade to Engines, Weapons, Shields, Sensors, Etc.. as such, quite possible "only 12 like her in the fleet".. that does not mean that the Enterprise is only 1 of 12 vessels of that hull design.. more that likely, she was 1 of 12 that recieved the upgrades when Kirk took command.. aka "Only 12 like her in the fleet".
No reference to only 12 starships of that hull design.. the reference was to capability.
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starship
OK.. so the Production people state the dedication plaque is canon, Gene states the dedication plaque is canon, but you state it is not.
Guess you are right and the Creator of Star Trek is wrong.. got it.
Yup I've seen it,I also have read that the Starship class thing means that it was a Starship as opposed to the old Spaceships. The Enterprise Class sign on the door refers to the Enterprise simulator. NCC 1701 refit and NCC 1701 A are the exact same class just different ships NCC 1701 A is a Constitution Class therefor the NCC 1701 Refit is as well.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Watch the video. It does not imply capability or anything else.
I have watched the videos. Both TOS and TAS, have them right here on my PC.
I am going by the established history of the ship from all canonical resources as listed by Gene (not the studios as they don't consider TAS canon).
I am quite sure that by the established canon of Gene, the Starship Class ships were launched in 2245.. therefore it is reasonable to acknowledge that more of that hull were built in the 18 years before Kirk took command (19 when he launched for the 5 year mission)... by Kirk's quote, "only 12 like her in the fleet", 12 of the ships that were launched from the time they were first being built in 2245 until 2264 when Kirk launched on his 5 year mission recieved the upgrades that Kirk's ship had aquired.
As such, logic dictates that the statement refers to capability and not hull design.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
I have watched the videos. Both TOS and TAS, have them right here on my PC.
I am going by the established history of the ship from all canonical resources as listed by Gene (not the studios as they don't consider TAS canon).
I am quite sure that by the established canon of Gene, the Starship Class ships were launched in 2245.. therefore it is reasonable to acknowledge that more of that hull were built in the 18 years before Kirk took command (19 when he launched for the 5 year mission)... by Kirk's quote, "only 12 like her in the fleet", 12 of the ships that were launched from the time they were first being built in 2245 until 2264 when Kirk launched on his 5 year mission recieved the upgrades that Kirk's ship had aquired.
As such, logic dictates that the statement refers to capability and not hull design.
In your interpretation, which requires so much supposition and leaps of logic as to be silly.
You can't even seem to acknowledge all the video dialog evidence, which is canon, like it or not, that the TOS Enterprise is Constitution class. Picard refers to it as Constitution class, Scotty says 'Aye' Are you honestly going to go with the theory that Scotty doesn't even know what class of ship he was Chief Engineer on? Its refered to as a Connie in DS9, and Ent as well. Are you saying they are all wrong? These aren't fans 'renaming' something. This is on screen dialog here.
In your interpretation, which requires so much supposition and leaps of logic as to be silly. You can't even seem to acknowledge all the video dialog evidence, which is canon, like it or not, that the TOS Enterprise is Constitution class.
I will accept the TOS Starship Class as a TOS Constitution class when they remaster the remastered episodes replacing the Dedication Plaque stating Starship Class and dubbing in "The Cage" a voice over for the Ensign saying "our new Starships can.." with "Our new Connies can"... or any other reference dubbed into TOS with Constitution in place of Starship.. Gene has Starship as a Duty Class of the vessel as to compare against the "Spaceship" that the NX line were designated. It is what he classified the ship as. It is what he had them put on the dedication plaque that was displayed in almost every episode of TOS.
It wasn't until TMP that First of Line designated hull classification and even then that was established in TWOK Enterprise Refit with Enterprise Class.
Granted that Enterprise Class could be considered "retconed" to Constitution Class due to TFF blueprint, but that hull is completely different from the TOS hull, though similar in shape.. the TMP ship is longer, taller and completely redesigned internally from the TOS ship with every part of the ship upgraded as to be a completely different hull with completely different equipment and as such a completely different classificaiton.
So I conceed, NCC-1701 Refit and NCC-1701-A - retconed Constitution Class.. but that does not make the TOS hull a Constitution Class as it is a completely different design (even though it retains the same basic shape).
and by the way, in TNG, Scotty was drunk at that point in the episode, so drunk that he agreed with Piccard instead of correcting him, that is if you care to watch that episode again.. a nostalgic drunk semi-stupor; which was the easy way to allow the writers to "slip" in a B&B fandom inspired retcon that no one challenges except for Roddenberry canon fans like me.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
So I conceed, NCC-1701 Refit and NCC-1701-A - retconed Constitution Class.. but that does not make the TOS hull a Constitution Class as it is a completely different design (even though it retains the same basic shape).
I once again point to this video. TOS bridge. Scotty. Picard. Constitution class. So once again, unless you're saying that Scotty doesn't even know his own ship, you are incorrect.
The first time we can see Constitution class goes all the way back to TOS Trouble with Tribbles. Scotty is looking at a computer graphic from his tech journal, describing the phaser systems of Constitution class ships.
So there is no retcon. It was always Constitution class.
I once again point to this video. TOS bridge. Scotty. Picard. Constitution class. So once again, unless you're saying that Scotty doesn't even know his own ship, you are incorrect.
The first time we can see Constitution class goes all the way back to TOS Trouble with Tribbles. Scotty is looking at a computer graphic from his tech journal, describing the phaser systems of Constitution class ships.
So there is no retcon. It was always Constitution class.
From my edit above
"and by the way, in TNG, Scotty was drunk at that point in the episode, so drunk that he agreed with Piccard instead of correcting him, that is if you care to watch that episode again.. a nostalgic drunk semi-stupor; which was the easy way to allow the writers to "slip" in a B&B fandom inspired retcon that no one challenges except for Roddenberry canon fans like me."
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
"and by the way, in TNG, Scotty was drunk at that point in the episode, so drunk that he agreed with Piccard instead of correcting him, that is if you care to watch that episode again.. a nostalgic drunk semi-stupor; which was the easy way to allow the writers to "slip" in a B&B fandom inspired retcon that no one challenges except for Roddenberry canon fans like me."
Seemed pretty sober to me. Not even tipsy. Again, you making wild suppositions. Not to mention the computer graphic going all the way back to Trouble with Tribbles that flat out says Constitution class.
The first time we can see Constitution class goes all the way back to TOS Trouble with Tribbles. Scotty is looking at a computer graphic from his tech journal, describing the phaser systems of Constitution class ships.
And you don't see the doctoring in the 2nd image as compared to the image displayed on the monitor from the episode screen shot.. Compare the images closely, very closely.. I am quite sure you will see some subtle but significant differences in the 2 images, which is why they "Assume" the 2nd image to be true (which is funny since the 2nd image was created and published by Franz Joseph AFTER that episode aired, and published to reinforce Franz Joseph's conceptual art which Gene had already publically stated was NOT canon).
OK.. run with that.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
A T5 constitution ? Seriously, guys, I've never understood your obsession about that. You can still buy an Excelsior, it's roughly the same old-fashion look, it works the same way, but it's not completely white.
A T5 Miranda would just be there for the lulz, nothing else. If it's released, I definitely want one, but in the interview, he said there was no plans for this at the moment.
If they add a T5 connie then I want a Battlestar. With 15 hangar bays, please.
And you don't see the doctoring in the 2nd image as compared to the image displayed on the monitor from the episode screen shot.. Compare the images closely, very closely.. I am quite sure you will see some subtle but significant differences in the 2 images, which is why they "Assume" the 2nd image to be true (which is funny since the 2nd image was created and published by Franz Joseph AFTER that episode aired, and published to reinforce Franz Joseph's conceptual art which Gene had already publically stated was NOT canon).
OK.. run with that.
The manual was signed off on by Gene, and considered canon for at least four movies. After that Gene and Franz had a falling out, and it wasn't until then that the manual was declared non-canon. All because Gene decided he wanted to be a jerk. Heck, watch TWoK again, you can see some of the Franz Joseph designed ships on the displays of the bridge.
A T5 constitution ? Seriously, guys, I've never understood your obsession about that. You can still buy an Excelsior, it's roughly the same old-fashion look, it works the same way, but it's not completely white.
If they add a T5 connie then I want a Battlestar. With 15 hangar bays, please.
I'm opting for a T5 TMP "Connie" not the TOS Starship. If the "Miranda" Class can be upped to T5 and it is the same age as the TMP "Connie", then there is no reason why the TMP "Connie" can't be upped to T5 as well.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
I'm opting for a T5 TMP "Connie" not the TOS Starship. If the "Miranda" Class can be upped to T5 and it is the same age as the TMP "Connie", then there is no reason why the TMP "Connie" can't be upped to T5 as well.
I'm opting for a T5 TMP "Connie" not the TOS Starship. If the "Miranda" Class can be upped to T5 and it is the same age as the TMP "Connie", then there is no reason why the TMP "Connie" can't be upped to T5 as well.
The Miranda is not being upped to T5, already confirmed on both tribble test server and Geko's twitter. This whole thread is based on TGN's misunderstanding of what was said.
The Miranda is not being upped to T5, already confirmed on both tribble test server and Geko's twitter. This whole thread is based on TGN's misunderstanding of what was said.
I hope to god thats true. God ive grown tired of the ToS "fans" and their Kirk/Connie insanity. The only good thing about it is that it laid the foundations for TNG, DS9 and Voyager (although we'll forget S7 ever happened).
The manual was signed off on by Gene, and considered canon for at least four movies. After that Gene and Franz had a falling out, and it wasn't until then that the manual was declared non-canon. All because Gene decided he wanted to be a jerk. Heck, watch TWoK again, you can see some of the Franz Joseph designed ships on the displays of the bridge.
well, when the creator of a product says something is non canon.. then it's non canon.
Either way, it goes back to the Creator's original design and what he/she determines to be canon, which is what I have been advocating all along.
Gene's canon states "Starship Class" for the TOS Enterprise, he created it, he wrote it, and it is his right to call it what he wants.. and as such according to Gene, the TOS Enterprise is "Starship Class" as per his design.
I don't see what the deal is.. Fandom has pretty much won out the debate vs original creative design long ago.. I'm in the minority as a Roddenberry purist.
I was making the specification of Hull classes in order to allow the Devs to go back to CBS with on screen canonical references that established the canon, not the attempted retcon of previous episodes through poor writing techniques, in order to give them bargaining chips and ammunition to use in order to make a vast majority of the fanbase happy.
Hence why I am arguing the points.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
This is true. If the Saber has a T5 version the Exeter/Excal definitely should.
Oh yes great, so the devs and CBS cave in and make a T5 Exeter, what comes after that? The exact same people whinging on in the exact same way and just as much that they can't use the TOS and TMP costumes on it.
I'm opting for a T5 TMP "Connie" not the TOS Starship. If the "Miranda" Class can be upped to T5 and it is the same age as the TMP "Connie", then there is no reason why the TMP "Connie" can't be upped to T5 as well.
But they are not upping the Miranda to T5, it's been spelled out about a dozen times in this thread already and confirmed as fact on Tribble; they are simply permitted people who dismissed their starter ship to rebuy that same T1 ship for Dilithium.
Also, ^this guy^, exactly what I was talking about Nagus; an Exeter won't satisfy these crusty old grognards, and doing a T5 Exeter will only open up another avenue for people to whinge and moan.
Al needs to grow a pair and just come out with a definitive statement. No "CBS say so", no "well we'd like to but..", just a straight up "shut yer pie holes and quit yer moaning, there is not going to be a T5 Constitution, regardless of what asshattery you try to mess about with regarding class names or anything else; no TOS, and NO TMP".
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
the term "Connie" is why the debate is over Hull Clasification through established canon because everyone condenses 2 different hull designs into 1 "connie" classification.
CBS does not want the Original Enterprise to be changed into a higher class ship.
The TMP Connie hull on the other hand (which still is a Paramount design IIRC as well as Miranda) is still open for discussion.
Granted that the Devs won't make the Miranda hull into T5.. so probably the TMP Connie hull won't be brought up to T5 either..
but maybe T4? (still viable in STFs?)
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
well, when the creator of a product says something is non canon.. then it's non canon.
Either way, it goes back to the Creator's original design and what he/she determines to be canon, which is what I have been advocating all along.
Gene's canon states "Starship Class" for the TOS Enterprise, he created it, he wrote it, and it is his right to call it what he wants.. and as such according to Gene, the TOS Enterprise is "Starship Class" as per his design.
I don't see what the deal is.. Fandom has pretty much won out the debate vs original creative design long ago.. I'm in the minority as a Roddenberry purist.
I was making the specification of Hull classes in order to allow the Devs to go back to CBS with on screen canonical references that established the canon, not the attempted retcon of previous episodes through poor writing techniques, in order to give them bargaining chips and ammunition to use in order to make a vast majority of the fanbase happy.
Hence why I am arguing the points.
Where's your proof that a 'vast majority' would be pleased with a Constitution of any sort making it to T5? I don't want it, a great many others don't want it. If it was a 'vast majority' then all these T5 connie threads that have happened wouldn't have went round and round in circles for as long as they have.
I want a 2409 game. It what was advertised. If this were a 23rd century game I'd be just as much against a Galaxy, or a Sovereign, or any other silly thing being introduced. I was against the Ent-J, I'm against the Wells class, etc. They do not belong in this game setting.
CBS also said no to the TMP Connie, go look on tribble, the refit for the T2 cruiser isn't there. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Where's your proof that a 'vast majority' would be pleased with a Constitution of any sort making it to T5?
then answer
then all these T5 connie threads that have happened
You alst state:
I want a 2409 game. It what was advertised. If this were a 23rd century game I'd be just as much against a Galaxy, or a Sovereign, or any other silly thing being introduced. I was against the Ent-J, I'm against the Wells class, etc. They do not belong in this game setting.
However in TNG against the Borg and again in DS9 against the Dominion and the Cardassians, Starfleet pulled everything out of mothballs and upgraded them to be effective in modern combat, Heck, they even we so far as to start producing them again because they were easier and faster to build than the newer designs.
and the game is set where the Federation is at war against every other faction inthe galaxy....
If you have sea worthy battle ships and carriers, though somewhat out dated sitting in a bay and WWIII breaks out.. are you just going to let them sit there doing nothing
or
when you can easily upgrade the weapons and defenses on them and put them back into service and increase your strength and defense overall for your country?
Do you build 15 more F-22 Raptors in a year or do you build 50 new F-15's in the same amount of time?
Sure the raptor out performs and out shoots the Eagle by a margin of 3 to 1, but the F-15 can be built in a fraction of the time and can be armed with the same and even greater payload (since the Raptor is internal and the Eagle is External heavy ordinance) than the Raptor.. the Raptor's advantage lies in manueverability and stealth.. however the Eagle has never been shot down in combat.
but the Raptor design is 10 years old and the Eagle's is around 55.. but the F-15 is still the Air Superiority Fighter of the US even though the Raptor out perform's it and is designed and slated to replace it...
Materials and production make the cost prohibitive to build the F-22 and when in an armed conflict, it is cheaper to pull out the old tried and true and produce at a faster rate and lesser cost.
That is why players like myself in STO who want the older ships brought up to higher tiers and made viable.. Others want the Nostalgia of their favorite Star Trek ships...
But the game is all out faction war.. You are at war with the Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, Udine, Borg, Breen, Etc... in Kirk's era, they only had to worry about the Klingons and Romulans.. here in 2409, everyone is against the middle and as such, Starfleet would get every available ship modified to the highest possible condition, and then start mass producing the easier to make older designs with current tech.
That would be the reality.. the top of the line, brand new ships would be cost prohibitive to create rapidly and as such would be the rare ships in game instead of vice versa.
Currently the opposite is true.. it seems that Starfleet can't find the fleet yards where the older ships are stored and lost the blue prints for the mass production warships vs the costly and harder to produce new ships.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
But the game is all out faction war.. You are at war with the Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, Udine, Borg, Breen, Etc... in Kirk's era, they only had to worry about the Klingons and Romulans.. here in 2409, everyone is against the middle and as such, Starfleet would get every available ship modified to the highest possible condition, and then start mass producing the easier to make older designs with current tech.
Another possible reason to start remaking them (in universe), if to inspire the new generation. I'm sure they still feed cadets a steady supply of Kirk/Picard/Sisko, and maybe Janeway antics to inspire them to be like there heros, having a retrofit might inspire the masses in the same way.
"..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino
but the Raptor design is 10 years old and the Eagle's is around 55.. but the F-15 is still the Air Superiority Fighter of the US even though the Raptor out perform's it and is designed and slated to replace it...
Since when is 1976 55 years ago? Because that's when the F-15 Eagle was introduced. I'm not sure what kind of math you use, but the math I use says 2012-1976=36
If you have sea worthy battle ships and carriers, though somewhat out dated sitting in a bay and WWIII breaks out.. are you just going to let them sit there doing nothing
or
when you can easily upgrade the weapons and defenses on them and put them back into service and increase your strength and defense overall for your country?
Those ships cannot 'easily' be upgraded to modern standards. The Iowa class for example was refitted as recently as the early 80s. They will never see service again, due to the fact that current estimates put refits for them at 4 years each to bring them up to modern tech. It only took 2 years to build them in the first place.
Still doesn't change that the Connie is old and small. Volume wise you can fit the entire ship with room to spare inside a Galaxy class warp engine. Even the Intrepid class has nearly three times the volume.
No amount of bickering, pleading, insanely rationalized arguments, will ever convince me that a ship design that old, that small, will ever be able take or dish out the pounding the much larger and newer ships can. And before you point out the Defiant class, let me remind you that the Defiant was designed purely as a warship and nothing else. Its essentially guns with engines and armor strapped on. The Constitution was never designed as such.
No amount of bickering, pleading, insanely rationalized arguments, will ever convince me that a ship design that old, that small, will ever be able take or dish out the pounding the much larger and newer ships can. And before you point out the Defiant class, let me remind you that the Defiant was designed purely as a warship and nothing else. Its essentially guns with engines and armor strapped on. The Constitution was never designed as such.
They don't need to convince you, you aren't the one that makes the decision.;)
Where's your proof that a 'vast majority' would be pleased with a Constitution of any sort making it to T5? I don't want it, a great many others don't want it. If it was a 'vast majority' then all these T5 connie threads that have happened wouldn't have went round and round in circles for as long as they have.
I want a 2409 game. It what was advertised. If this were a 23rd century game I'd be just as much against a Galaxy, or a Sovereign, or any other silly thing being introduced. I was against the Ent-J, I'm against the Wells class, etc. They do not belong in this game setting.
CBS also said no to the TMP Connie, go look on tribble, the refit for the T2 cruiser isn't there. I don't think that's a coincidence.
The next request after the T5 Connie: The T5 SS-Valiant.
I'm tired of hearing "they gotta make money, they gotta make money, they gotta make money" because it's a bogus argument. A well-thought-out game can make plenty of money on what may be the largest and longest lived franchise in history...If you can't make money on Star Trek, then you are doing it wrong.
There are restaurants that serve star trek breakfasts for petes sakes. Stay with the Star Trek formula, and the rest will take care of itself. You can't just take a cookie-cutter Asian MMO and stick a Star Trek sticker on it.
PWE, give us real Star Trek and we will give you money.
Thank you.......glad to see someone else "gets it."
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The 12 ship reference, if you go back and watch TOS refered to 12 ships with orders to undertake a 5 year missions, of which the Enterprise was the only one to return entact and manned, thus giving a successful completion to the mission... in no context in the TOS series was it implied that Starfleet only made 12 ships of the Starship Class.. the reference was to the Original 12 ships of the line.. Don't forget that the Enterprise was over 18 years old when Kirk got her.. She was first captained by Robert April from 2245 to 2251, then Christopher Pike from 2251 to 2263, and Kirk commanded her from 2263 to 2269 and then she underwent the major refit and recieved the re-designation of Enterprise Class.
but this is getting way off topic..
the ships have different dedications as I listed before.. they are not all Constitution class..
but for simplistics:
CBS doesn't want the TOS hull as a T5... I don't see where CBS stated anything about limiting the TMP hull. It would be nice to see the TMP hull as a T5.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
Wow, you are so far wrong. The quote is from Tomorrow is Yesterday, none of that is stated or even implied. Kirk's quote was 'There are only 12 like it in the fleet.' 9:30 into the episode. To me that says 12 Constitution class ships, ymmv on the exact meaning, but you are reading way way way more into it than there is.
TOS "The Cage", the Ensign on the ground tells the lady "Our new Starships can go ..", this was presumably mid way through Pikes 2nd 5 year mission, after the Enterprise had her 3rd overhaul. The Enterprise underwent a good refit prior to Pike's 2nd 5 year mission going from 260 crew to over 400 AKA, the upgrades practically made the old hull a "new Starship"as referenced in the quote.
The Enterprise also underwent a year of refit when Kirk got command of her in 2263 (mission started 2264).. AKA upgrade to Engines, Weapons, Shields, Sensors, Etc.. as such, quite possible "only 12 like her in the fleet".. that does not mean that the Enterprise is only 1 of 12 vessels of that hull design.. more that likely, she was 1 of 12 that recieved the upgrades when Kirk took command.. aka "Only 12 like her in the fleet".
No reference to only 12 starships of that hull design.. the reference was to capability.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
Watch the video. It does not imply capability or anything else.
Yup I've seen it,I also have read that the Starship class thing means that it was a Starship as opposed to the old Spaceships. The Enterprise Class sign on the door refers to the Enterprise simulator. NCC 1701 refit and NCC 1701 A are the exact same class just different ships NCC 1701 A is a Constitution Class therefor the NCC 1701 Refit is as well.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I have watched the videos. Both TOS and TAS, have them right here on my PC.
I am going by the established history of the ship from all canonical resources as listed by Gene (not the studios as they don't consider TAS canon).
I am quite sure that by the established canon of Gene, the Starship Class ships were launched in 2245.. therefore it is reasonable to acknowledge that more of that hull were built in the 18 years before Kirk took command (19 when he launched for the 5 year mission)... by Kirk's quote, "only 12 like her in the fleet", 12 of the ships that were launched from the time they were first being built in 2245 until 2264 when Kirk launched on his 5 year mission recieved the upgrades that Kirk's ship had aquired.
As such, logic dictates that the statement refers to capability and not hull design.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
In your interpretation, which requires so much supposition and leaps of logic as to be silly.
You can't even seem to acknowledge all the video dialog evidence, which is canon, like it or not, that the TOS Enterprise is Constitution class. Picard refers to it as Constitution class, Scotty says 'Aye' Are you honestly going to go with the theory that Scotty doesn't even know what class of ship he was Chief Engineer on? Its refered to as a Connie in DS9, and Ent as well. Are you saying they are all wrong? These aren't fans 'renaming' something. This is on screen dialog here.
I will accept the TOS Starship Class as a TOS Constitution class when they remaster the remastered episodes replacing the Dedication Plaque stating Starship Class and dubbing in "The Cage" a voice over for the Ensign saying "our new Starships can.." with "Our new Connies can"... or any other reference dubbed into TOS with Constitution in place of Starship.. Gene has Starship as a Duty Class of the vessel as to compare against the "Spaceship" that the NX line were designated. It is what he classified the ship as. It is what he had them put on the dedication plaque that was displayed in almost every episode of TOS.
It wasn't until TMP that First of Line designated hull classification and even then that was established in TWOK Enterprise Refit with Enterprise Class.
Granted that Enterprise Class could be considered "retconed" to Constitution Class due to TFF blueprint, but that hull is completely different from the TOS hull, though similar in shape.. the TMP ship is longer, taller and completely redesigned internally from the TOS ship with every part of the ship upgraded as to be a completely different hull with completely different equipment and as such a completely different classificaiton.
So I conceed, NCC-1701 Refit and NCC-1701-A - retconed Constitution Class.. but that does not make the TOS hull a Constitution Class as it is a completely different design (even though it retains the same basic shape).
and by the way, in TNG, Scotty was drunk at that point in the episode, so drunk that he agreed with Piccard instead of correcting him, that is if you care to watch that episode again.. a nostalgic drunk semi-stupor; which was the easy way to allow the writers to "slip" in a B&B fandom inspired retcon that no one challenges except for Roddenberry canon fans like me.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
I once again point to this video. TOS bridge. Scotty. Picard. Constitution class. So once again, unless you're saying that Scotty doesn't even know his own ship, you are incorrect.
The first time we can see Constitution class goes all the way back to TOS Trouble with Tribbles. Scotty is looking at a computer graphic from his tech journal, describing the phaser systems of Constitution class ships.
So there is no retcon. It was always Constitution class.
From my edit above
"and by the way, in TNG, Scotty was drunk at that point in the episode, so drunk that he agreed with Piccard instead of correcting him, that is if you care to watch that episode again.. a nostalgic drunk semi-stupor; which was the easy way to allow the writers to "slip" in a B&B fandom inspired retcon that no one challenges except for Roddenberry canon fans like me."
STO Forum Account Creation Date: June 9, 2008 (Perpetual Entertainment at the time)
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Pestalence_XC
Proud member of Xenocorp
"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
Seemed pretty sober to me. Not even tipsy. Again, you making wild suppositions. Not to mention the computer graphic going all the way back to Trouble with Tribbles that flat out says Constitution class.
And you don't see the doctoring in the 2nd image as compared to the image displayed on the monitor from the episode screen shot.. Compare the images closely, very closely.. I am quite sure you will see some subtle but significant differences in the 2 images, which is why they "Assume" the 2nd image to be true (which is funny since the 2nd image was created and published by Franz Joseph AFTER that episode aired, and published to reinforce Franz Joseph's conceptual art which Gene had already publically stated was NOT canon).
OK.. run with that.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
A T5 Miranda would just be there for the lulz, nothing else. If it's released, I definitely want one, but in the interview, he said there was no plans for this at the moment.
If they add a T5 connie then I want a Battlestar. With 15 hangar bays, please.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
The manual was signed off on by Gene, and considered canon for at least four movies. After that Gene and Franz had a falling out, and it wasn't until then that the manual was declared non-canon. All because Gene decided he wanted to be a jerk. Heck, watch TWoK again, you can see some of the Franz Joseph designed ships on the displays of the bridge.
I'm opting for a T5 TMP "Connie" not the TOS Starship. If the "Miranda" Class can be upped to T5 and it is the same age as the TMP "Connie", then there is no reason why the TMP "Connie" can't be upped to T5 as well.
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Pestalence_XC
Proud member of Xenocorp
"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
CBS say no.. therefore the answer is no
God i wish people would stop whining about T5 Connies. Its a horrid ship, it wont be T5 ever if there is any justice in the world. End of story.
The Miranda is not being upped to T5, already confirmed on both tribble test server and Geko's twitter. This whole thread is based on TGN's misunderstanding of what was said.
I hope to god thats true. God ive grown tired of the ToS "fans" and their Kirk/Connie insanity. The only good thing about it is that it laid the foundations for TNG, DS9 and Voyager (although we'll forget S7 ever happened).
well, when the creator of a product says something is non canon.. then it's non canon.
Either way, it goes back to the Creator's original design and what he/she determines to be canon, which is what I have been advocating all along.
Gene's canon states "Starship Class" for the TOS Enterprise, he created it, he wrote it, and it is his right to call it what he wants.. and as such according to Gene, the TOS Enterprise is "Starship Class" as per his design.
I don't see what the deal is.. Fandom has pretty much won out the debate vs original creative design long ago.. I'm in the minority as a Roddenberry purist.
I was making the specification of Hull classes in order to allow the Devs to go back to CBS with on screen canonical references that established the canon, not the attempted retcon of previous episodes through poor writing techniques, in order to give them bargaining chips and ammunition to use in order to make a vast majority of the fanbase happy.
Hence why I am arguing the points.
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
Oh yes great, so the devs and CBS cave in and make a T5 Exeter, what comes after that? The exact same people whinging on in the exact same way and just as much that they can't use the TOS and TMP costumes on it.
But they are not upping the Miranda to T5, it's been spelled out about a dozen times in this thread already and confirmed as fact on Tribble; they are simply permitted people who dismissed their starter ship to rebuy that same T1 ship for Dilithium.
Also, ^this guy^, exactly what I was talking about Nagus; an Exeter won't satisfy these crusty old grognards, and doing a T5 Exeter will only open up another avenue for people to whinge and moan.
Al needs to grow a pair and just come out with a definitive statement. No "CBS say so", no "well we'd like to but..", just a straight up "shut yer pie holes and quit yer moaning, there is not going to be a T5 Constitution, regardless of what asshattery you try to mess about with regarding class names or anything else; no TOS, and NO TMP".
We are PWE. Your forums and game accounts will be added to our own. Your community will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
CBS said no to the TOS Hull, not the TMP hull..
just for clarification...
the term "Connie" is why the debate is over Hull Clasification through established canon because everyone condenses 2 different hull designs into 1 "connie" classification.
CBS does not want the Original Enterprise to be changed into a higher class ship.
The TMP Connie hull on the other hand (which still is a Paramount design IIRC as well as Miranda) is still open for discussion.
Granted that the Devs won't make the Miranda hull into T5.. so probably the TMP Connie hull won't be brought up to T5 either..
but maybe T4? (still viable in STFs?)
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
Where's your proof that a 'vast majority' would be pleased with a Constitution of any sort making it to T5? I don't want it, a great many others don't want it. If it was a 'vast majority' then all these T5 connie threads that have happened wouldn't have went round and round in circles for as long as they have.
I want a 2409 game. It what was advertised. If this were a 23rd century game I'd be just as much against a Galaxy, or a Sovereign, or any other silly thing being introduced. I was against the Ent-J, I'm against the Wells class, etc. They do not belong in this game setting.
CBS also said no to the TMP Connie, go look on tribble, the refit for the T2 cruiser isn't there. I don't think that's a coincidence.
then answer
You alst state:
However in TNG against the Borg and again in DS9 against the Dominion and the Cardassians, Starfleet pulled everything out of mothballs and upgraded them to be effective in modern combat, Heck, they even we so far as to start producing them again because they were easier and faster to build than the newer designs.
and the game is set where the Federation is at war against every other faction inthe galaxy....
If you have sea worthy battle ships and carriers, though somewhat out dated sitting in a bay and WWIII breaks out.. are you just going to let them sit there doing nothing
or
when you can easily upgrade the weapons and defenses on them and put them back into service and increase your strength and defense overall for your country?
Do you build 15 more F-22 Raptors in a year or do you build 50 new F-15's in the same amount of time?
Sure the raptor out performs and out shoots the Eagle by a margin of 3 to 1, but the F-15 can be built in a fraction of the time and can be armed with the same and even greater payload (since the Raptor is internal and the Eagle is External heavy ordinance) than the Raptor.. the Raptor's advantage lies in manueverability and stealth.. however the Eagle has never been shot down in combat.
but the Raptor design is 10 years old and the Eagle's is around 55.. but the F-15 is still the Air Superiority Fighter of the US even though the Raptor out perform's it and is designed and slated to replace it...
Materials and production make the cost prohibitive to build the F-22 and when in an armed conflict, it is cheaper to pull out the old tried and true and produce at a faster rate and lesser cost.
That is why players like myself in STO who want the older ships brought up to higher tiers and made viable.. Others want the Nostalgia of their favorite Star Trek ships...
But the game is all out faction war.. You are at war with the Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, Udine, Borg, Breen, Etc... in Kirk's era, they only had to worry about the Klingons and Romulans.. here in 2409, everyone is against the middle and as such, Starfleet would get every available ship modified to the highest possible condition, and then start mass producing the easier to make older designs with current tech.
That would be the reality.. the top of the line, brand new ships would be cost prohibitive to create rapidly and as such would be the rare ships in game instead of vice versa.
Currently the opposite is true.. it seems that Starfleet can't find the fleet yards where the older ships are stored and lost the blue prints for the mass production warships vs the costly and harder to produce new ships.
STO Forum Account Creation Date: June 9, 2008 (Perpetual Entertainment at the time)
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Pestalence_XC
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"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." - Kyle Reese, 'Terminator'
Another possible reason to start remaking them (in universe), if to inspire the new generation. I'm sure they still feed cadets a steady supply of Kirk/Picard/Sisko, and maybe Janeway antics to inspire them to be like there heros, having a retrofit might inspire the masses in the same way.
Since when is 1976 55 years ago? Because that's when the F-15 Eagle was introduced. I'm not sure what kind of math you use, but the math I use says 2012-1976=36
Those ships cannot 'easily' be upgraded to modern standards. The Iowa class for example was refitted as recently as the early 80s. They will never see service again, due to the fact that current estimates put refits for them at 4 years each to bring them up to modern tech. It only took 2 years to build them in the first place.
Still doesn't change that the Connie is old and small. Volume wise you can fit the entire ship with room to spare inside a Galaxy class warp engine. Even the Intrepid class has nearly three times the volume.
No amount of bickering, pleading, insanely rationalized arguments, will ever convince me that a ship design that old, that small, will ever be able take or dish out the pounding the much larger and newer ships can. And before you point out the Defiant class, let me remind you that the Defiant was designed purely as a warship and nothing else. Its essentially guns with engines and armor strapped on. The Constitution was never designed as such.
They don't need to convince you, you aren't the one that makes the decision.;)
Dec/2008
Good thing CBS has been saying no for a long time now, huh? :P
The next request after the T5 Connie: The T5 SS-Valiant.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Thank you.......glad to see someone else "gets it."