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towani
Member Posts: 104 Arc User
So since I began playing at F2P, I just chose the typical DPS and went Tact / Escort.
Now I feel I've got a good grasp of that ship and tact toon, so I started a Sci toon. However, I feel completely lost with this toon. I just started, so still on the newb ship, but all I can do is heal heal heal whether it's my haul or shields. So, Nothing is gonig to destroy me, but it sure takes forever to damage anyone.
Anyhow, I always assumed that Tact was for Escorts, Engy was for Cruisers, and Sci was for Med ships. I know you can mix/match... but how successful can this be done, and is it worth it?
As a Sci, are they bascially just a healer or can they be in a tact and viable? I ask too because I did buy the MVAM and I believe it'll work on any toon, so it'd save me money when the Sci gets to lvl 50 if that is the case.
Anyhow, just trying to gather feedback now before I level the Sci, or an Engy, up to 50 and realize they didn't work as I thought they might.
Thanks for any tips or links to anything explaining this
Now I feel I've got a good grasp of that ship and tact toon, so I started a Sci toon. However, I feel completely lost with this toon. I just started, so still on the newb ship, but all I can do is heal heal heal whether it's my haul or shields. So, Nothing is gonig to destroy me, but it sure takes forever to damage anyone.
Anyhow, I always assumed that Tact was for Escorts, Engy was for Cruisers, and Sci was for Med ships. I know you can mix/match... but how successful can this be done, and is it worth it?
As a Sci, are they bascially just a healer or can they be in a tact and viable? I ask too because I did buy the MVAM and I believe it'll work on any toon, so it'd save me money when the Sci gets to lvl 50 if that is the case.
Anyhow, just trying to gather feedback now before I level the Sci, or an Engy, up to 50 and realize they didn't work as I thought they might.
Thanks for any tips or links to anything explaining this
Hi. Apparently I'm new here and joined in Jun 2012. Guess I'm in good company though... seems everyone else joined then too!
Post edited by towani on
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Cruisers though! I can tell you allll about those. I am a tac and I have flown the assault (read: NOT assault) cruiser, the Gal-X (look to Hakaishin for advice on how to fly one of those, I got in one, shot the lance at a few PvE mobs, and called it a day), the tac ody, and the excel. This is really the list of cruisers you want to be in as a tac, because they have certain special aspects that lend themselves to DAMAGE (not the assault, just, blech). The Gal-X has a cloak (for PvP really) and a giant lance that IS affected by phaser dmg consoles. Again, see Hak's post on that. Excel has a lt. cmdr tac boff slot which allows for some extra powers (BO III being my person favorite) and extra maneuverability for putting those DBBs on target. The Tac ody.....well..... the tac ody is....interesting. If you google the 'dragon flagship' build its interesting. The +1 odys get 10 console slots, and the tac odyssey's is, as expected, a tac slot. It has that pet console you 'might' be interested in, but the really big thing is the universal boff slots. I am not sure if I have seen someone fully tac out the ody using those universal slots yet, but I would be interesting in seeing the results of this.
- Demosthenes01101, from the REAL Star Trek Online forums!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
"You have been, and always shall be, my friend."
- Pointy-eared, green blooded, hobgoblin
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
- Sherlock Holmes
The narrow firing arc of the subnuc is not an issue for an escort since dc/dhc have the same arc.
Here is a sample build. if you want you can put the starship sensors into warp core efficiency.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=Joey_0
He is a tactical captain asking about non-escort ships, I don't think that will be helpful for him.
- Demosthenes01101, from the REAL Star Trek Online forums!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
"You have been, and always shall be, my friend."
- Pointy-eared, green blooded, hobgoblin
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
- Sherlock Holmes
Similarly, my engineering alt, also Starfleet, took a Reconnaisance Science Vessel when he hit 40, then took the previously purchased Defiant, and now alternates between them with as much efficiency as you can expect from an undergeared character.
And as for my KDF tactical, I never had much luck on him. This was partially due to the inability to equip it though. I ran a mismatch all the way through - got a Vor'cha at Captain, then a Vo'quv at Brigadier General, and never bought a C-Store ship - though if I ever buy an extra ship, with Dilithium or C-Points, it'll be a Bird of Prey
Again, the KDF alt is undergeared - my best gear on KDF is a Mk XII Honor Guard Engine, which doesn't make much of a difference.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
You do realize he's a science captain asking about whether should he use the MVAE he already has, or buy another ship? I just pointed out that either option is perfectly viable due to the ability of level 40 ships to compete with the C-Store level 50 ones.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Please read OP again. I believe he is unhappy with his sci toon and wants to know the viability in a different class ship.
The biggest thing with a science ship is you have to run your aux at 100 or else your BOFF abilities for your science BOs will basically be useless. Science captains get a big shield bonus as well which helps your survivability. I have found that Regen shields work better for science since you can run lower shield power settings with them. I've also found that running a beam array in front and back, along with a launcher on both sides can be very effective, since you can strip shields down pretty fast with your BO abilities and then pound the TRIBBLE out of the hull with torps. Once I get three+ weapon slots up front I also consider running at least one single cannon, since the sci ships have a great turn rate and you can keep the nose on target much better than you can with a cruiser.
Science is fun, but it develops slowly and you really need to get your BOs powered up and to your higher tier ships before it becomes fun to play. Now if you want to play a more "tankish" science captain, then you can go the cruiser route. This will really help out your survivability and give you a little more DPS, though you'll have to pick and choose your "healing" role as you won't have as much access to your sci BO powers. Honestly for PVE it doesn't matter much, especially if you are solo'ing, however if you are going to be teaming a lot or running STFs or Fleet Actions you will probably want to stick with Sci in a sci ship as that will help you fill a team role a little better.
This doesn't mean they can't work, but they won't deliver their full potential, among them are the following:
- Tac/Carrier: most Tac abilities have no bearing on pets, so they're largely wasted on a Ship whose main offense comes from said pets.
- Sci/Cruiser: on theory, it's not a bad combo, I tried it for a while. But broadsiding and keeping watch for Subnucleonic Beam aren't compatible since Subnuke only works in the frontal arc.
Otherwise, a Sci captain can do well in a SV (obviously), Carrier, Escort or even BoP.
Sci/MVAE is fine, but do decide what kind of Ship you want to find early on: the Skillsets for a MVAE or a SV are very different.
Hmmm... Didn't notice part of what you quoted. To explain what I just read from the OP (just past your second quote): Science ships can deal considerable damage using Gravity Well, Photonic Shockwave, and occasionally a Tyken's Rift may prove its worth to you. Gravity Well is best suited towards condensing large groups of ships into what I call a 'black hole' formation, where the destruction of a carefully selected ship can cause a chain reaction, forcing the rest of the fleet to explode - in sequence, all at once, or a combination of the above options.
Photonic Shockwave repulses ships, but doesn't deal as much damage - It does, however, interrupt abilities like Tractor Beam Repulsors or Extend Shields due to its ability to apply a "Disable" debuff for a second or two. It is best used when surrounded by large groups of small vessels such as fighters - but be careful not to trigger it too soon or you'll waste most of your potencial DPS.
Tyken's Rift damages ships, though not as much as Gravity Well, and does not autonomously pull ships in. However, when fired at maximum Auxiliary power, it can and sometimes indeed will disable underpowered systems. This is most useful against NPCs such as the Bird of Prey or Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, and can disable the underpowered systems of player ships as well, depending on how much power the ship has. To my knowledge, the maximum drain per debuff for Tyken's Rift III is just above 12 energy, with up to 2 debuffs stacking at a time per rift (not sure if multiple rifts can stack though). This is most useful for torpedo boats, as the ability to render one's shields inoperative allows torpedoes to maximize damage potencial. Furthermore, a polaron proc (not taking into account the fact that they may or may not stack, I'm not very well informed about it) combined with Tyken's Rift will disable systems with up to 70 energy (base drain from the proc is 25, I believe, and I assumed the boost from Flow Capacitors was up to 100% - please correct if the information is wrong), and if you add a Target Subsystems ability to the mix, you could easily disable systems with up to 90+ energy, ultimately rendering the ship USELESS, especially when flying a KDF carrier with Power Siphon Drones, which likely add another 10-20 energy to the equation for a brilliant 110+ drain. I didn't, however, factor in resistances from Power Insulators due to them being unknown to me, and only one of the systems would be hit by a full 110 due to Target Subsystems only hitting one system at a time. Try experimenting with a few extra players and the Breen Energy Dissipator, you could see extreme results.
Sorry for wall of text, didn't mean to do it, but the info just kept pouring into my mind.
Edit: OMG, I JUST REALIZED! I COULD MAKE AN INCREDIBLE BATTLESHIP WITH THIS KIND OF KNOWLEDGE! *runs off to outfit his engineering alt with polarons, add an extra tyken's rift......* Just kidding, I'm too attached to my canon phasers to try that kind of build. However, my KDF isn't that limited in his weapon choice, despite the fact that disruptors are canon for them, so... beware the I.K.S. Hurgh'ragh, for it will soon drain all the power from your weak ships!
Re-edit: I did however forget that I did NOT spec into Flow Capacitors and can't get a respec at this time, and I forgot to mention that there are also C-Store consoles (Aceton Assimilator is one of them, I believe) that could boost such a drain, and Energy Siphon would be nice if you could stuff it past your dual Tyken's Rift, and stuffing Flow Capacitors into your console slots is a must-do.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
Depending on the build, you might not require aux power to be at maximum, so again, pick what powers you want to use and build the ship around them. That's the main problem with science: picking the powers, not necessarily the ship, and praying to the computer gods that the Devs don't feel like nerfing that particular science power *again*. In essence, don't even approach science as anything other than a shield healing engineer with a few fancy powers that are incredibly situational in PvP and mostly useless in a PvE realm dominated by dps meters. :frown:
While I'm an engineer, flying a Nebula has given me the most fun (when the torpedoes decide to fire), but I do so knowing that, ultimately, I am not useful in a fleet STF filled with escorts who know what they're doing. I'm slightly more helpful in PvP for certain situations, but even then it's mostly healing. Science vessels require skill and an ability to take one for the team, which is why most people decide to fly an escort
Addendum: glitched or not, PSW3 deals 14k base damage to an unshielded hull, and never underestimate the 2-3s disable it puts on ships in PvP.
The turnrate of sci-ships isn't that bad, so you can keep most targest in front of you, and those which are too fast just need to be caught with a gravwell.
Also don't forget the build-in subsytemtargeting, which is just basically four free tac-ensigns on board.
The downside to sci-ships is, yeah, you have to skill in the third part of your skill tree for the sci abilities (and better polaron weapons as a side effect), but in general you can skill all 3 carrers the same for space.
Subnucleonic beam is the only sci-skill with a limited area, the 90? front, but at least in an escort that's no problem, and shouldn't be with a cruiser, since the CD is high anyway.
Regarding the aux-power setting: I always just use EP2Aux for the sci-skills, and put the free power in weapons and/or shields/engines.
They say science ships are weak Ha. When myself in any science ship
Deep space science vessel,
long range science vessel,
Reconnaissance science vessel;
Atrox Carrier
or the Nebula - (butt ugly) but nice stats
paired with the new escort carrier can wipe out 3 groups of the Mirror Event before the other "guys" have finished with their group says something about science ships.
Science vessels shine when grouped up with friends and pugs alike. If you need some help send me a pm here and I'll do best to answer your questions.
Playing STO since Beta
Leader of S-P-Q-R
Actually, I've found that I'm near-useless when running STFs with my fleet. This is because we already will have a cruiser/carrier tank, and the rest know how to fly/use their escorts to maximize their dps. When I fly my nebula, my CC or tanking simply isn't needed; sure, I can debuff here and there, but overall I could be replaced by another escort and they might finish it even faster/more efficiently. Still, this is more of a jab at how PvE is structured, and not necessarily at science in general. Although I still think the damage potential of rank III science skills need a buff, so that way you wouldn't have MVAEs or other vessels abusing the Lt. Comm station tier slot. Kinda like how PSW jumps from 4k to 14k when going from II to III, lol. I wanna see a grav well kicking out 1k dps at 58 aux, darn it! :biggrin:
A science vessel can be plenty useful/powerful. The issue is that it takes a bit of skill, but more importantly, work.
I run a Recon Science vessel in STFs, and can do fairly well. For example, in Khitomer Accord, I can take the right side and have both cubes spawned (ie. blow up two generators on each transformer) before my team makes it over without missing a probe. To do this I have to work quickly deploying the right abilities at the right times, constantly maneuvering into the right spot, and managing power. I default to high weapons power with a bit in shields and aux, and I switch to high aux before firing something off. This maximized DPS.
Cruisers and escorts are easier since most of their damage comes from weapons, so they don't have to worry about messing with aux power and using abilities to try and do damage.
===
Anyways, this is largely independent of character class. Engineers bring some tankiness to the table and can improve power transfer which can in turn improve DPS. Tac captains are straight up weapon damage, though APA is nice on cruisers due to the turn boost. Science is standard buffs and debuffs, but sensor scan helps the team do more DPS (and there's a doff that also causes it to lower the targets DPS) while photonic fleet does damage as well, so can work just as well on an escort. Obviously the primary capabilities of a ship are best benefited by a captain of the right class (nothing DPSes like a Tac/Escort, the best tank is a Eng/Cruiser, and a Sci/Sci has unparalelled control of the field), but going off class can shore up weaknesses, and can give you advantages in other areas.
Science ships are slow, agrevating and painful. Plain and simple. The issue is that the vast majority of science boff abilities that aren't heals are of very limited use in solo PVE content. My current science build, (specifics later), on my VA character works wonders in STF's, but aside from it's tasnking it brings nothing of any consuquence to solo work.
My best advice is that you need to decide now what your going to run at cap. Reconnissiance or not? The only way (in STF's at least), to viably sheild tank is to use cycling tac team. Distribute is just too slow to properly keep up and you can't heal fast enough without taking full advantage of multi-sheild heals to get by on ability heals alone. As such unless your willing to run with nothing but tac team your going to have to set up your tank as a hull tank on a non-reconissiance sciene ship.
Use your engeneeirs for Engeneeiring team and AtSIF. Bring an approppriatte Doff. Healing should focus on Hazard Emitters. Feel free however to drop a DOFF on giving Brace a nice sheild heal. It's a great panic button for when everything else is on CD. Beyond that i recommend you run maxed Aux power and throw the rest at Sheilds. For that reason i recommend regeneratice sheilds as it takes maximum advantage of your increased regen and means even once your sheilds go down, every blow is ablated at least a litiile.
Weaponry. I would go for a Dual beam bank up front and then load everything else out with photon torps, (they have best DPS and you don;t have enough slots to have an issue with overlapping CD's), stick to torp damage tac consles btw. The only thing i'd otheriwse be tempted to put in is a plasma mine launcher, that through sheilds plasma burn is suprisingly powerfl in PVE.
For the rest of your Boff powers it's upto you, for solo PVE Feedback pulse and Tachyon beam work great. But both are bassiclly a waste once you hit STF's. You can't survive enough damage to make feedback relevant and between the massive sheilds of the stuff that does have sheilds and the long list of stuff that dosen't have sheilds, there isn't a huge benefit to Tachyon Beam. The latter also interferes with your real star ability. Grav Well 3. In Group PVE and specificlly STF's it's ability to pin enemies down and stp them moving is a huge advantage. Just don't expect to be stopping stuff on your own, you can pin them down but your not going to kill them alone. As such it's more useful when your down to one gate on Khitomor, or in Infected for holding back the nanites stuff. With aftershocks and a deflector doff to lower CD's it's especially dealy. Not sure if multipule DOFF's stack for multipule Aftershocks, but if so i'm gong to have lots of fun in the future
When not using it to control stuff it's pure kenetic damage type and lots of it also makes it good on generators, transformers and gateways. In khitimor i'm fojd of droping sensor scan and Grav well o one generator and burning another down while grav well takes care of the first one on it's own.
Beyond that it's kind of up in the air.
My current build, (deep space ship for me):
2xEngT1, 1xEtSIF1
1xTHY 1xTHY2
2xJS1, 2xTR1, 2xHE3, 1xGW3
TBH i'm finding the second tractor repulsors pretty usless, and both copies of jam sensors even more so, but not sure what to replace with ATM.
Overall though science is ng and slow, but you die very littile so it kind of evens out, though i recommend skipping the romulan episodes. They're hell to do as those high yeild plasma torps really hurt.
Reconnaissance Science Vessel:
Tactical team I
Beam Fire at Will I, Torpedo Spread II
Emergency Power to Shields I, Axillary Power to Structural I (in reserve: extend shields I)
Polarize Hull I, Hazard Emitters II, Charged Particle Burst II
Hazard Emitters I, Transfer Shield Strength II, Gravity Well I, Tyken's Rift III
(I can swap Boffs to get GW II or CPB II as well)
Fit uses Tetryon Beams, 1 DBB 1 Array fore, 2 arrays rear, and a fore and read quantum torpedo launcher. Always want to be swapping power between the weapons and axillary. High flow capacitor strips shields to set up a torpedo barrage on multiple targets. Not so great and taking down fixed targets (ie. nanites) but it excelles at running interference, GW holds stuff in plce to keep them away from gate/kang, and heals help if anything reaches Kang, plus you are able to stay topped off even in the face in heavy firepower. If you want to get less tanky, you can drop a hazard emitters for another charged particle burst.
Oh, I know science can be very useful/helpful, but what I'm saying is that science is more of a jack-of-all-trades atm, which is bad for the clearly defined roles in an STF. Most people only want the one tank, so they don't need a secondary one, even if it's pumping out dps on par with most PUG escorts. Though I will say that, as an engineer, my class skills are rarely used as compared to when I fly an escort. I'm too tanky to really be using miracle worker outside the rare instance, and I only use EPS transfer a few times a match. I think the best combo is, either sci/sci or tac/sci, since they enhance a specific part of your abilities to push your science vessel past that jack-of-all-trades middling. Like I said, though, if they would up the damage on top tier science skills, you'd see a lot more people using science vessels to take advantage of that increased dps. CC only counts for so much, especially when a fleet of escorts will just scatter/spread that mob to dust in no time.