I don't want to derail the thread into something useful, but what about a bridge officer skill
Attack Pattern mu: Raises threat generation by ... whatever
Could even be an engennering skill, cruiser captains have little enough tactical skills
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
To Borgly Go Webcomic - Season 1, Season 2, Season 3 Dei schware Pheisa Launzn trifft'n Robotazombiewiarfl und schlitzt eam fui auf. 50.000 Schodn, oida.
a skill where a ship can "fly casual" and not attract attention as long as its NOT firing
i think that is already ingame...it's called don't fire, let others do the job. It's generally seen as unpolite, since you fill a slot on the team and not contributing to the mission goals.
So, i don't know, but "not fireing" isn't really an option in a game based on fighting.
and there are THOUSANDS of these things out there if you look
which you clearly have not
I can probably handle more damage than you
difference is I do a better job when I am able to actually FIGHT the enemy and repair other ships
and being the damage sink slows things down and makes the team less effective
there is no mission in the Game a sufficient number of cruisers can not complete (except the vault of course)
But if you start a mission and see THREE escorts or more than one carrier you may as well go home right away
Same as if you enter PVP and see the word "panda" or "TSI" over any team member on either side
1)its not suicidal if i don't die. ever. and the mere fact that you think being the focus of enemy fire equates to suicide already speaks volumes on how bad you are at managing damage.
2)other ships wont need to be repaired if they take no damage because the enemy fire is drawn on me.
3)being the one that the enemies focus fires on does not make the team less effective. in fact it makes the team more effective because everyone else's self preservation instinct doesn't have to kick in. everyone can just go all out on damage.
1)its not suicidal if i don't die. ever. and the mere fact that you think being the focus of enemy fire equates to suicide already speaks volumes on how bad you are at managing damage.
2)other ships wont need to be repaired if they take no damage because the enemy fire is drawn on me.
3)being the one that the enemies focus fires on does not make the team less effective. in fact it makes the team more effective because everyone else's self preservation instinct doesn't have to kick in. everyone can just go all out on damage.
thats how it works...
chances sollvax cares about your post? 0%
will he go on ranting about sci vessels being cruisers, tacticals being tanks? 100% certainty
As most escorts only fire on the straif run the ability to only draw fire on that fraction of their time would do away the need for tanking entirely
you would draw fire only while firing (so 15 seconds at a time)
they do STRAFING runs as a matter of fight and flight response kicking in. they want to minimize the damage they will take while maximizing the damage they do. hence the whole fly in and fly out. if someone were soaking up any possible damage they could take, there is no reason to fly away.
As most escorts only fire on the straif run the ability to only draw fire on that fraction of their time would do away the need for tanking entirely
you would draw fire only while firing (so 15 seconds at a time)
with that tactic it will take you a lot of time to kill anything. i do strafeing runs when i play solo against a difficult enemy. like KASE, where sometimes i need to take out a cube by myself. in a team with a tank...i just sit there and fire upon the enemy.
on stand and fire (static gunnery mode) an escort is a poor second choice
Escorts are DESIGNED to hit and run
its why they are fast. turn on a penny and mount all useful weapons face on
This explains much
you need to tank because the escorts you work with are acting as Turrets
A GOOD escort (and there are some very good escort pilots) never stops moving
and makes its shots count
Vectoring in on the low angle or the high attack angle on small ships FIRST
then medium then supporting the cruisers as they fight the powerful ships
The Best Escorts are sweep and strike merchants not static gun mounts.
In the same optimum operational unit the cruiser is fighting the larger ships and dealing with those while the escorts trim the "dinky toys"
It then joins them all in clearing the largest vessels.
Meanwhile largest vessels carriers and so on can act as a central command node and control the action with superior fire power
Meanwhile the "all singing all dancing " super C store ships do their thing (or stay out of the way)
on stand and fire (static gunnery mode) an escort is a poor second choice
Escorts are DESIGNED to hit and run
its why they are fast. turn on a penny and mount all useful weapons face on
This explains much
you need to tank because the escorts you work with are acting as Turrets
A GOOD escort (and there are some very good escort pilots) never stops moving
and makes its shots count
Vectoring in on the low angle or the high attack angle on small ships FIRST
then medium then supporting the cruisers as they fight the powerful ships
The Best Escorts are sweep and strike merchants not static gun mounts.
In the same optimum operational unit the cruiser is fighting the larger ships and dealing with those while the escorts trim the "dinky toys"
It then joins them all in clearing the largest vessels.
Meanwhile largest vessels carriers and so on can act as a central command node and control the action with superior fire power
Meanwhile the "all singing all dancing " super C store ships do their thing (or stay out of the way)
who said i NEED to tank? you obviously are just making really broad assumptions here and you further show even more ignorance to all things common sense.
i WANT to tank in order to make things easier on the rest of the team, whatever ship they fly. in this game movement is great because you get a movement defensive bonus. one does not need said defensive bonus if they have no reason to defend themselves. in being the one the enemy focuses fire on, "hit and run" escorts no longer need to do hit and run attacks. all they need to do is hit, hit, and hit even more.
and an escort that neither escorts nor hit and runs is a static turret
and the poor guy flying it can go get a beer and some chicken wings because he is NOT needed
so clearly its a difference in role / group / class of operations
and maybe you are not merely trying to get everyone else killed
but Id strongly suggest finding a better class of escort pilot to hang with
the escort is an assault weapon not a heavy artillery piece
and an escort that neither escorts nor hit and runs is a static turret
and the poor guy flying it can go get a beer and some chicken wings because he is NOT needed
so clearly its a difference in role / group / class of operations
and maybe you are not merely trying to get everyone else killed
but Id strongly suggest finding a better class of escort pilot to hang with
the escort is an assault weapon not a heavy artillery piece
its only of ANY value while its moving
nice asusmption that i "need to or i wouldn't do it".
i actually like playing tanking roles in mmos because i actually feel gratification from seeing others not really need to save themselves from harm. on top of that i find satisfaction in watching myself weather the strongest of blows from one or multiple enemies. its satisfying to take that from an enemy then go "is that the best youve got?"
as for the issue with escorts, do tell me, what endgame material in the current season on STO requires an escort to actually escort anything? do say what mission we have that requires just that.
as for "trying to get everyone else killed". please do explain with your ridiculous bizarro logic how me being the one to take everything that the enemies dish out magically makes my teammates die. please, do explain with your flawed logic how that even makes any sense at all.
As your own logic says that making others useless and cruisers into damage sinks
The best logical argument to use with you would be something like
"the Purple Mango is yellow"
You always take EVERYTHING as an attack on yourself
So Im going to stop bothering with you and let you destroy the game for many people IF you can get support from enough people dumb enough to pay the 2000 Cp for the new "super tanking slave " ship
As your own logic says that making others useless and cruisers into damage sinks
The best logical argument to use with you would be something like
"the Purple Mango is yellow"
You always take EVERYTHING as an attack on yourself
So Im going to stop bothering with you and let you destroy the game for many people IF you can get support from enough people dumb enough to pay the 2000 Cp for the new "super tanking slave " ship
again, you aren't making any sense,and neither are you spouting any logic. it's quite ironic given how you are even using spock's familiar line as your signature.
no one becomes useless if a cruiser is tanking. in fact it even increases other people's usefulness because they aren't spending any time running away from bad guys in order to heal themselves.
there is no discussion in this thread about a c-store "super tanking slave" as you call it. each discussion here has been propositions to make grabbing aggro in order to tank a lot more viable, especially on cruisers. so far each one presented (barring all the ludircrous ones from you) have had merits.
and as for me taking "everything as an attack" on myself, you are the one making it so using words like "you".
an accusation that ultimately held no water right there.
so, yeah, there you have it. who would have thought that if the negative comment was directed at someone, its fair to perceive it as an attack on them? oh right, thats just common sense.
For the third time: don't feed it and the troll will vanish.
You must resist the urge to correct the sollvax' deliberately outlandish claims, or the sollvax will prowl this thread (and indeed these boards) for aeons to come, its unnerving, strange, unnatural cries echoing the boundless ages; its constant drone a grim harbinger of mankind's upcoming demise.
Edit: Cursed word filters, that's not an insult. At least, it wasn't in that sentence. Guess I'll replace it by "strange", though it doesn't quite fit the tone.
For the third time: don't feed it and the troll will vanish.
You must resist the urge to correct the sollvax' deliberately outlandish claims, or the sollvax will prowl this thread (and indeed these boards) for aeons to come, its unnerving, strange, unnatural cries echoing the boundless ages; its constant drone a grim harbinger of mankind's upcoming demise.
Edit: Cursed word filters, that's not an insult. At least, it wasn't in that sentence. Guess I'll replace it by "strange", though it doesn't quite fit the tone.
People always like to feed it.
NERF CANNONS - THEY NEED A 50% NERF
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
For the third time: don't feed it and the troll will vanish.
You must resist the urge to correct the sollvax' deliberately outlandish claims, or the sollvax will prowl this thread (and indeed these boards) for aeons to come, its unnerving, strange, unnatural cries echoing the boundless ages; its constant drone a grim harbinger of mankind's upcoming demise.
Edit: Cursed word filters, that's not an insult. At least, it wasn't in that sentence. Guess I'll replace it by "strange", though it doesn't quite fit the tone.
Sadly, this is not a given. Not responding doesn't guarantee a troll goes away and risks their posts being treated seriously by someone new to the forums.
So that the troll is not successful, I'll attempt to get this thread back on topic.
Threat Control Modifier, is it really needed? Some have reported that they can hold aggro without any troubles. Some say it could be improved. So far we've seen some ideas thrown around beyond my original ideas.
I did like the ability to lower other peoples' aggro, but I think that would be something towards a science ship, mainly because it's more of a buff/debuff than anything else.
I've seen make boff abilities draw more aggro like Tyken's Rift, which I really thought was a good idea. It could even be THE snap aggro ability.
There are also torp spreads which pull aggro, but it doesn't hold for very long with that escort plowing away with the high dps next to you.
Perhaps a skill, boff ability, whatever that transfers a person's aggro that they are generating to yourself. Escort pulling aggro too much? Pop this skill on them and all of the aggro they are generating is instead transferred to you. Don't like that? Then don't use it, just like hull heals.
There's a variety of different ways this can be done, but I believe all of us (Not counting trolls) are in agreement that granting additional aggro generation and control is something the game could use.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
So that the troll is not successful, I'll attempt to get this thread back on topic.
Threat Control Modifier, is it really needed? Some have reported that they can hold aggro without any troubles. Some say it could be improved. So far we've seen some ideas thrown around beyond my original ideas.
I did like the ability to lower other peoples' aggro, but I think that would be something towards a science ship, mainly because it's more of a buff/debuff than anything else.
I've seen make boff abilities draw more aggro like Tyken's Rift, which I really thought was a good idea. It could even be THE snap aggro ability.
There are also torp spreads which pull aggro, but it doesn't hold for very long with that escort plowing away with the high dps next to you.
Perhaps a skill, boff ability, whatever that transfers a person's aggro that they are generating to yourself. Escort pulling aggro too much? Pop this skill on them and all of the aggro they are generating is instead transferred to you. Don't like that? Then don't use it, just like hull heals.
There's a variety of different ways this can be done, but I believe all of us (Not counting trolls) are in agreement that granting additional aggro generation and control is something the game could use.
it's agreeable. the only problem i have with the notion of threat generation as a captain/ boff ability is that in those cases being able to pull the best amount of threat onto yourself ends up becoming something that shoehorns for either a specific captain or a specific ship. if it were a captain ability, unless made universal like abandon ship, ramming speed, or evasive maneuvers, it becomes something that only one out of three types of captains can use. if it were made into a bridge officer ability, getting the best version of said skill would end up with a captain needing to pilot specific ships.
I see what you're saying. I'm starting to think a VA ability to take another's aggro and make it your own is starting to sound a lot better.
There is also the option for threat modifiers on weapons as well which I stated originally, which sounds like the easiest (And therefore laziest) way PWE could help with aggro control for the players.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Well, if you think about it, each class of ship has its own unique way of grabbing aggro:
Escorts with dps
Cruisers with threat control
Science with their powers
So really, while science does have to invest points into particle gen, graviton gen, etc etc, cruisers are the ones screwed under the current scheme. Why? Because at least with science-related skills, any investment into them can be carried at least slightly over to another ship class. Sure, that grav well 1 won't be doing much damage, but it will help snare and hits the hull directly. And an escort, given identical skills, will hold aggro over a cruiser due to dps. So, if you take away threat control and toss in a skill, would it be better?
If you tie threat generation to weapons, it reduces the already-small pool of available weaponry for a given ship. Like using plasma weapons? Sorry, they have the maximum threat generation and you're in an escort. Unless you enjoy keeping aggro in that bucket of yours and generally pissing off your now-useless tank, it's time to change out weaponry.
How about tied to a skill? Not bad, but it'd have to be tied directly to cruisers themselves, and thought given to the threat control skill. If it's no longer needed, how will those points affect ship balance? It could be a good thing, allowing captains to sink lots of points into say, a science skill to encourage variety. Toggling sounds good, but I think a long-running skill with a small cooldown would be better. They could even use a doff to change the skill, and add on fun modifiers like +weapons power while active.
Still, I think a major problem is that everyone is trying to balance cruisers against escorts, without accidentally giving escorts even more of a boost. A skill removal is great when replaced by a power, but who's to say those cruiser captains won't prefer sinking those points into dps and realizing they work better in an escort? Threat control is only part of the puzzle, of which the other side is tanking ability. Until escorts are prevented from actively tanking--even as an engineer captain, even though they only have miracle worker--cruisers will not enjoy a lasting role. Science vessels can shield tank with the best of them, and if they can grab aggro with grav well, cruisers aren't required.
If you want ships to be relatively equal, then sure...throw in the threat modifier as a power/toggle and still see cruisers and science vessels wallow in their current secondary role as the proverbial odd man out in STFs (and even somewhat in PvP). But if you are willing to narrowly define roles for cruisers, then toss in the power/toggle replacement, make escorts more squishy (think 24k hull), and either boost sci power damage or reduce their threat generation. That way, escorts would rely on cruisers to aggro and science to debuff/CC, and vice versa etc etc...
Also, easy type fix to escorts: make the defensive value increasingly dependant (i.e., exponentially) on overall speed. In reverse? Fine, but you only have a +3 bonus to defense, enjoy getting one-shot. At full speed? Fantastic, now you get that max bonus. This could apply to all ships, too, it'd just be more noticeable among the turret escorts
So, if the "trinity" of grouping does happen, and threat generation works with cruisers, how would you make sure that following will still work:-
1, stf que, which randomly puts teams with random players, limiting teams to 3 escorts, 1 science 1 cruiser would increase que time.
2, if players could kick from a team, whats stopping them from kicking an escort wanting to tank or an engineer who wants to dps etc? doesnt have the right heals or buffs, isnt optimised for the said role.
3, Would you implement a threat meter?
4, How would you stop players then taking another step and demanding healing meters and dps meters?
5, choreographed stfs would probably have to be done, which means redesigning all stfs encounters reducing development time for further content.
6, fleet encounters, what new reward would you put forward, having an item as a reward for overall damage done wont work if escorts are the only players who can achieve this.
7, build/character build viewer, meaning i can right click a team member and view his or her skill allocation, boff layout and gear so i can kick from team if hasnt got the gear or spec i want them to have?
8, stop players masquerading as tanks or healers to reduce que time?
9, will there be specific tanking, dps and healing gear? multi roles? duel spec? why cant my cruiser do same dps as an escort equal to the hybrid tax on world of ********, pure vs hybrid? (people may prefer cruisers or science than escorts but want to dps)
10, would this mean players spamming general chat in social zones requesting tanks or healers for last spot?
Probably ask more question, but i think this will do for now if anyone answer them
So, if the "trinity" of grouping does happen, and threat generation works with cruisers, how would you make sure that following will still work:-
1, stf que, which randomly puts teams with random players, limiting teams to 3 escorts, 1 science 1 cruiser would increase que time.
2, if players could kick from a team, whats stopping them from kicking an escort wanting to tank or an engineer who wants to dps etc? doesnt have the right heals or buffs, isnt optimised for the said role.
3, Would you implement a threat meter?
4, How would you stop players then taking another step and demanding healing meters and dps meters?
5, choreographed stfs would probably have to be done, which means redesigning all stfs encounters reducing development time for further content.
6, fleet encounters, what new reward would you put forward, having an item as a reward for overall damage done wont work if escorts are the only players who can achieve this.
7, build/character build viewer, meaning i can right click a team member and view his or her skill allocation, boff layout and gear so i can kick from team if hasnt got the gear or spec i want them to have?
8, stop players masquerading as tanks or healers to reduce que time?
9, will there be specific tanking, dps and healing gear? multi roles? duel spec? why cant my cruiser do same dps as an escort equal to the hybrid tax on world of ********, pure vs hybrid? (people may prefer cruisers or science than escorts but want to dps)
10, would this mean players spamming general chat in social zones requesting tanks or healers for last spot?
Probably ask more question, but i think this will do for now if anyone answer them
all of these seem to ask or imply that the trinity will be heavily enforced, if not made mandatory. no one posting any of the suggestions has made that claim at all. its just that with the state of how threat works right now, pulling off "the trinity" isn't guaranteed. suggestions being put forth here, from all contributions ive read, are just here to try and brainstorm an idea that allows those that actually want to tank to be able to tank, and not just "tank for 2 seconds then watch the target change aggro to someone else".
all of these seem to ask or imply that the trinity will be heavily enforced, if not made mandatory. no one posting any of the suggestions has made that claim at all. its just that with the state of how threat works right now, pulling off "the trinity" isn't guaranteed. suggestions being put forth here, from all contributions ive read, are just here to try and brainstorm an idea that allows those that actually want to tank to be able to tank, and not just "tank for 2 seconds then watch the target change aggro to someone else".
Generally speaking when I am in tank mode I am nearly unkillable amd I grain as much aggro as possible so my team can kill everything.
NERF CANNONS - THEY NEED A 50% NERF
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
So that the troll is not successful, I'll attempt to get this thread back on topic.
Threat Control Modifier, is it really needed? Some have reported that they can hold aggro without any troubles. Some say it could be improved. So far we've seen some ideas thrown around beyond my original ideas.
I would say that it is needed as you simply do not know what kind of team you're going to end up on.
There's nothing quite so frustrating as ending up on say, a team of 4 escorts with tac captains and you're an Eng in a Cruiser that can't hold threat and are clearly not dealing any valuable damage contribution.
It does, unfortunately, mostly lock you into playing Cruisers on that character (although my Eng can get away with 9 ranks in threat in an Escort, I just need to be a little more careful and not spray CSV all over the place).
I've seen make boff abilities draw more aggro like Tyken's Rift, which I really thought was a good idea. It could even be THE snap aggro ability.
Yes, my personal preference would be to see threat generation added to either brand new BOFF powers that are multifunctional or seeing that functionality added to existing BOFF powers.
For example, Attack Pattern Delta seems like a decent candidate to have a threat modifier added.
Regardless the powers would need to be multifunctional, so as not to make the player feel penalized in using an entire BOFF ability for threat generation alone.
This already exists on the ground with 'Draw Fire', so I'm not sure why this functionality was never added to any space abilities.
Another benefit of having it added to BOFF abilities means that it would be available to all ships, and all captain types.
So while my Escort or Sci ship might not want 24/7 threat generation through taking the skill, I could still have 1 or 2 BOFF abilities that would let me pull aggro off of a team mate from time to time (especially as an Escort with limited healing capabilities you tend to run out of ways to help keep others alive).
I'd also like to see either simple copies of Eng Resistance consoles have a separate version with threat added to them, or perhaps copies of tactical consoles that do the same (as threat is tied up with Tactical thematically).
Comments
and there are THOUSANDS of these things out there if you look
which you clearly have not
I can probably handle more damage than you
difference is I do a better job when I am able to actually FIGHT the enemy and repair other ships
and being the damage sink slows things down and makes the team less effective
there is no mission in the Game a sufficient number of cruisers can not complete (except the vault of course)
But if you start a mission and see THREE escorts or more than one carrier you may as well go home right away
Same as if you enter PVP and see the word "panda" or "TSI" over any team member on either side
Attack Pattern mu: Raises threat generation by ... whatever
Could even be an engennering skill, cruiser captains have little enough tactical skills
To Borgly Go Webcomic - Season 1, Season 2, Season 3
Dei schware Pheisa Launzn trifft'n Robotazombiewiarfl und schlitzt eam fui auf. 50.000 Schodn, oida.
nice idea, basically a BOFF power to increase threat...was brought up like 15 pages earlier, before the off topic rant began.
put it on a tactical bridge officer so that cannon escorts can use ALL the slots
a skill where a ship can "fly casual" and not attract attention as long as its NOT firing
i think that is already ingame...it's called don't fire, let others do the job. It's generally seen as unpolite, since you fill a slot on the team and not contributing to the mission goals.
So, i don't know, but "not fireing" isn't really an option in a game based on fighting.
1)its not suicidal if i don't die. ever. and the mere fact that you think being the focus of enemy fire equates to suicide already speaks volumes on how bad you are at managing damage.
2)other ships wont need to be repaired if they take no damage because the enemy fire is drawn on me.
3)being the one that the enemies focus fires on does not make the team less effective. in fact it makes the team more effective because everyone else's self preservation instinct doesn't have to kick in. everyone can just go all out on damage.
thats how it works...
chances sollvax cares about your post? 0%
will he go on ranting about sci vessels being cruisers, tacticals being tanks? 100% certainty
you would draw fire only while firing (so 15 seconds at a time)
they do STRAFING runs as a matter of fight and flight response kicking in. they want to minimize the damage they will take while maximizing the damage they do. hence the whole fly in and fly out. if someone were soaking up any possible damage they could take, there is no reason to fly away.
with that tactic it will take you a lot of time to kill anything. i do strafeing runs when i play solo against a difficult enemy. like KASE, where sometimes i need to take out a cube by myself. in a team with a tank...i just sit there and fire upon the enemy.
Escorts are DESIGNED to hit and run
its why they are fast. turn on a penny and mount all useful weapons face on
This explains much
you need to tank because the escorts you work with are acting as Turrets
A GOOD escort (and there are some very good escort pilots) never stops moving
and makes its shots count
Vectoring in on the low angle or the high attack angle on small ships FIRST
then medium then supporting the cruisers as they fight the powerful ships
The Best Escorts are sweep and strike merchants not static gun mounts.
In the same optimum operational unit the cruiser is fighting the larger ships and dealing with those while the escorts trim the "dinky toys"
It then joins them all in clearing the largest vessels.
Meanwhile largest vessels carriers and so on can act as a central command node and control the action with superior fire power
Meanwhile the "all singing all dancing " super C store ships do their thing (or stay out of the way)
who said i NEED to tank? you obviously are just making really broad assumptions here and you further show even more ignorance to all things common sense.
i WANT to tank in order to make things easier on the rest of the team, whatever ship they fly. in this game movement is great because you get a movement defensive bonus. one does not need said defensive bonus if they have no reason to defend themselves. in being the one the enemy focuses fire on, "hit and run" escorts no longer need to do hit and run attacks. all they need to do is hit, hit, and hit even more.
and an escort that neither escorts nor hit and runs is a static turret
and the poor guy flying it can go get a beer and some chicken wings because he is NOT needed
so clearly its a difference in role / group / class of operations
and maybe you are not merely trying to get everyone else killed
but Id strongly suggest finding a better class of escort pilot to hang with
the escort is an assault weapon not a heavy artillery piece
its only of ANY value while its moving
nice asusmption that i "need to or i wouldn't do it".
i actually like playing tanking roles in mmos because i actually feel gratification from seeing others not really need to save themselves from harm. on top of that i find satisfaction in watching myself weather the strongest of blows from one or multiple enemies. its satisfying to take that from an enemy then go "is that the best youve got?"
as for the issue with escorts, do tell me, what endgame material in the current season on STO requires an escort to actually escort anything? do say what mission we have that requires just that.
as for "trying to get everyone else killed". please do explain with your ridiculous bizarro logic how me being the one to take everything that the enemies dish out magically makes my teammates die. please, do explain with your flawed logic how that even makes any sense at all.
The best logical argument to use with you would be something like
"the Purple Mango is yellow"
You always take EVERYTHING as an attack on yourself
So Im going to stop bothering with you and let you destroy the game for many people IF you can get support from enough people dumb enough to pay the 2000 Cp for the new "super tanking slave " ship
again, you aren't making any sense,and neither are you spouting any logic. it's quite ironic given how you are even using spock's familiar line as your signature.
no one becomes useless if a cruiser is tanking. in fact it even increases other people's usefulness because they aren't spending any time running away from bad guys in order to heal themselves.
there is no discussion in this thread about a c-store "super tanking slave" as you call it. each discussion here has been propositions to make grabbing aggro in order to tank a lot more viable, especially on cruisers. so far each one presented (barring all the ludircrous ones from you) have had merits.
and as for me taking "everything as an attack" on myself, you are the one making it so using words like "you".
for example
if not referring to myself, who is this "you" of whom you speak of?
thats pretty much a direct one right there.
an accusation that ultimately held no water right there.
so, yeah, there you have it. who would have thought that if the negative comment was directed at someone, its fair to perceive it as an attack on them? oh right, thats just common sense.
You must resist the urge to correct the sollvax' deliberately outlandish claims, or the sollvax will prowl this thread (and indeed these boards) for aeons to come, its unnerving, strange, unnatural cries echoing the boundless ages; its constant drone a grim harbinger of mankind's upcoming demise.
Edit: Cursed word filters, that's not an insult. At least, it wasn't in that sentence. Guess I'll replace it by "strange", though it doesn't quite fit the tone.
People always like to feed it.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
Sadly, this is not a given. Not responding doesn't guarantee a troll goes away and risks their posts being treated seriously by someone new to the forums.
Threat Control Modifier, is it really needed? Some have reported that they can hold aggro without any troubles. Some say it could be improved. So far we've seen some ideas thrown around beyond my original ideas.
I did like the ability to lower other peoples' aggro, but I think that would be something towards a science ship, mainly because it's more of a buff/debuff than anything else.
I've seen make boff abilities draw more aggro like Tyken's Rift, which I really thought was a good idea. It could even be THE snap aggro ability.
There are also torp spreads which pull aggro, but it doesn't hold for very long with that escort plowing away with the high dps next to you.
Perhaps a skill, boff ability, whatever that transfers a person's aggro that they are generating to yourself. Escort pulling aggro too much? Pop this skill on them and all of the aggro they are generating is instead transferred to you. Don't like that? Then don't use it, just like hull heals.
There's a variety of different ways this can be done, but I believe all of us (Not counting trolls) are in agreement that granting additional aggro generation and control is something the game could use.
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
it's agreeable. the only problem i have with the notion of threat generation as a captain/ boff ability is that in those cases being able to pull the best amount of threat onto yourself ends up becoming something that shoehorns for either a specific captain or a specific ship. if it were a captain ability, unless made universal like abandon ship, ramming speed, or evasive maneuvers, it becomes something that only one out of three types of captains can use. if it were made into a bridge officer ability, getting the best version of said skill would end up with a captain needing to pilot specific ships.
There is also the option for threat modifiers on weapons as well which I stated originally, which sounds like the easiest (And therefore laziest) way PWE could help with aggro control for the players.
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Escorts with dps
Cruisers with threat control
Science with their powers
So really, while science does have to invest points into particle gen, graviton gen, etc etc, cruisers are the ones screwed under the current scheme. Why? Because at least with science-related skills, any investment into them can be carried at least slightly over to another ship class. Sure, that grav well 1 won't be doing much damage, but it will help snare and hits the hull directly. And an escort, given identical skills, will hold aggro over a cruiser due to dps. So, if you take away threat control and toss in a skill, would it be better?
If you tie threat generation to weapons, it reduces the already-small pool of available weaponry for a given ship. Like using plasma weapons? Sorry, they have the maximum threat generation and you're in an escort. Unless you enjoy keeping aggro in that bucket of yours and generally pissing off your now-useless tank, it's time to change out weaponry.
How about tied to a skill? Not bad, but it'd have to be tied directly to cruisers themselves, and thought given to the threat control skill. If it's no longer needed, how will those points affect ship balance? It could be a good thing, allowing captains to sink lots of points into say, a science skill to encourage variety. Toggling sounds good, but I think a long-running skill with a small cooldown would be better. They could even use a doff to change the skill, and add on fun modifiers like +weapons power while active.
Still, I think a major problem is that everyone is trying to balance cruisers against escorts, without accidentally giving escorts even more of a boost. A skill removal is great when replaced by a power, but who's to say those cruiser captains won't prefer sinking those points into dps and realizing they work better in an escort? Threat control is only part of the puzzle, of which the other side is tanking ability. Until escorts are prevented from actively tanking--even as an engineer captain, even though they only have miracle worker--cruisers will not enjoy a lasting role. Science vessels can shield tank with the best of them, and if they can grab aggro with grav well, cruisers aren't required.
If you want ships to be relatively equal, then sure...throw in the threat modifier as a power/toggle and still see cruisers and science vessels wallow in their current secondary role as the proverbial odd man out in STFs (and even somewhat in PvP). But if you are willing to narrowly define roles for cruisers, then toss in the power/toggle replacement, make escorts more squishy (think 24k hull), and either boost sci power damage or reduce their threat generation. That way, escorts would rely on cruisers to aggro and science to debuff/CC, and vice versa etc etc...
Also, easy type fix to escorts: make the defensive value increasingly dependant (i.e., exponentially) on overall speed. In reverse? Fine, but you only have a +3 bonus to defense, enjoy getting one-shot. At full speed? Fantastic, now you get that max bonus. This could apply to all ships, too, it'd just be more noticeable among the turret escorts
1, stf que, which randomly puts teams with random players, limiting teams to 3 escorts, 1 science 1 cruiser would increase que time.
2, if players could kick from a team, whats stopping them from kicking an escort wanting to tank or an engineer who wants to dps etc? doesnt have the right heals or buffs, isnt optimised for the said role.
3, Would you implement a threat meter?
4, How would you stop players then taking another step and demanding healing meters and dps meters?
5, choreographed stfs would probably have to be done, which means redesigning all stfs encounters reducing development time for further content.
6, fleet encounters, what new reward would you put forward, having an item as a reward for overall damage done wont work if escorts are the only players who can achieve this.
7, build/character build viewer, meaning i can right click a team member and view his or her skill allocation, boff layout and gear so i can kick from team if hasnt got the gear or spec i want them to have?
8, stop players masquerading as tanks or healers to reduce que time?
9, will there be specific tanking, dps and healing gear? multi roles? duel spec? why cant my cruiser do same dps as an escort equal to the hybrid tax on world of ********, pure vs hybrid? (people may prefer cruisers or science than escorts but want to dps)
10, would this mean players spamming general chat in social zones requesting tanks or healers for last spot?
Probably ask more question, but i think this will do for now
all of these seem to ask or imply that the trinity will be heavily enforced, if not made mandatory. no one posting any of the suggestions has made that claim at all. its just that with the state of how threat works right now, pulling off "the trinity" isn't guaranteed. suggestions being put forth here, from all contributions ive read, are just here to try and brainstorm an idea that allows those that actually want to tank to be able to tank, and not just "tank for 2 seconds then watch the target change aggro to someone else".
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Generally speaking when I am in tank mode I am nearly unkillable amd I grain as much aggro as possible so my team can kill everything.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
I would say that it is needed as you simply do not know what kind of team you're going to end up on.
There's nothing quite so frustrating as ending up on say, a team of 4 escorts with tac captains and you're an Eng in a Cruiser that can't hold threat and are clearly not dealing any valuable damage contribution.
It does, unfortunately, mostly lock you into playing Cruisers on that character (although my Eng can get away with 9 ranks in threat in an Escort, I just need to be a little more careful and not spray CSV all over the place).
Yes, my personal preference would be to see threat generation added to either brand new BOFF powers that are multifunctional or seeing that functionality added to existing BOFF powers.
For example, Attack Pattern Delta seems like a decent candidate to have a threat modifier added.
Regardless the powers would need to be multifunctional, so as not to make the player feel penalized in using an entire BOFF ability for threat generation alone.
This already exists on the ground with 'Draw Fire', so I'm not sure why this functionality was never added to any space abilities.
Another benefit of having it added to BOFF abilities means that it would be available to all ships, and all captain types.
So while my Escort or Sci ship might not want 24/7 threat generation through taking the skill, I could still have 1 or 2 BOFF abilities that would let me pull aggro off of a team mate from time to time (especially as an Escort with limited healing capabilities you tend to run out of ways to help keep others alive).
I'd also like to see either simple copies of Eng Resistance consoles have a separate version with threat added to them, or perhaps copies of tactical consoles that do the same (as threat is tied up with Tactical thematically).