Advanced Flight Controls

mriedstra95 · June 2012

I was wondering what everyone thought of more advanced flight controls being added to the game. Or even possibly adding a "hardcore" or "ultra realistic" setting to the difficulty menu, or in the options menu.

Personally I think the ships handle like boats and it's not all to realistic. Even when I plug in a joystick I cannot force my ship to roll. The bird of prey feels as if it's just gotten it's wings clipped, I want to feel like I'm actually in control of my ship.

Does anyone here remember Star Trek Bridge Commander? Now, I'm not saying that STO should suddenly transform into Bridge Commander, I like the way STO works. I like weapons that level up, I like all of the cool abilities. I just want to be able to roll my ship back and fourth, I want to be able to turn my ship without it banking left or right. If I want my ship to bank and turn I will do it myself. I can see where command a large carrier or a slower moving vessel where these extra controls would get in the way sometimes, that's why I'd like to have the option to use the extra controls.

Also I would like to know what everyone thinks of a "Hardcore" mode where everyone gets added flight controls and 2 extra shield vectors ( Top and Bottom ) Sure I think there might be some balance issues, and things might need to be tweaked a little bit, but I'd rather have a slight imbalance or a couple of minor issues here and there as long as my little fighter ship or my bird of prey doesn't handle like a boat.

It would be interesting how many people would like to see this in game. If we're lucky it may even happen. Criticism is welcome

n7infiltraitor · June 2012

I hate to rain on your parade, but we cannot have this, at all. Engine limitations and gameplay design forbid anything above what we have now.

mikewendell · June 2012

Bridge Commander is, for some very strange reason, considered a dirty word around here as well....

fgivens · June 2012

Let's not worry about advanced flight controls, what we need is for Perfect world to actually have a usable set up for joysticks that work in the first place. I tried to set up my Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, had the ship movement set up but the throttle toggle and fire buttons could not be set up. I tried several times to submit a ticket, but apparently Perfect world is not allowing any submissions. Maybe if they get all the bugs worked out, players will start spending money for a product that actually works.:mad:

mriedstra95 · June 2012

I tried to set up my Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, had the ship movement set up but the throttle toggle and fire buttons could not be set up.

Hmm, the joystick seems to work fine for me, everything works, fire, throttle control and all of the buttons. ( I'm running win7 64 and have a saitek evo joystick )

Engine limitations and gameplay design forbid anything above what we have now.

Please don't make baseless statements, if you wish to show my why we cannot have this design, or _how_ the engine forbids it, then I'm all ears. Don't think of me as stupid either, I learn quickly and even took college computer science courses my freshman year of _high school_

Personally, I think that it wouldn't be hard to implement more advanced flight controls for those who want it, a "hardcore" mode and adding 2 more shield vectors would be cool, but probably throw off the balance and is too much to ask for.

omnious728 · June 2012

The devs have said since launch that the ships were meant to be be piloted more like "Tall" ships rather than fighters. They also staited that they tried 3D axis before general Beta testing, in house, and the consensus was that they didn't like it.

wolfdelyon · June 2012

mriedstra95 wrote: »

Please don't make baseless statements, if you wish to show my why we cannot have this design, or _how_ the engine forbids it, then I'm all ears. Don't think of me as stupid either, I learn quickly and even took college computer science courses my freshman year of _high school_

Personally, I think that it wouldn't be hard to implement more advanced flight controls for those who want it, a "hardcore" mode and adding 2 more shield vectors would be cool, but probably throw off the balance and is too much to ask for.

First, without passing any judgement on your intelligence, most CS graduates know barely enough software development to build a simple production-quality business client, let alone a demanding 3D game/simulator/MMO (I know since I actually studied CS and worked in software development for several years). A few classes don't qualify you to assess the limitations of a game engine. More importantly, the devs said many times on numerous occasions that it will NEVER be possible to implement this feature due to engine limitation and game design - the only way it's going to happen is if they design a whole new game.

As for the boat-like feeling - that's EXACTLY how a starSHIP should feel. Having wings on a BoP means nothing in space - there's no air to create lift. A popcorn-shaped starship, a popsicle-shaped starship and a rocked-shaped starship would all feel the same way, as long as they have similar mass and thruster positions.

If you are going for a realistic Newtonian flight model (which is very difficult to implement and control), I suggest you try Freelancer, Evochron and Starshatter. However, you'll notice that these games are all based on one/two-man fighter crafts, while even fighters in STO have room for more than two men. It would actually be pretty ridiculous to control a starship at impulse speed using a joystick, which is why conn officers use keyboards in the shows. The simplification in STO is quite decent and proper, especially since you are the captain of a starship with dozens (if not hundreds or even thousands) of crew members, not a jet fighter pilot.

bumperthumper · June 2012

I want to be able to go full impulse, cut it, then whip around my ship in any direction, while still using the momentum from the initial impulse burst to travel in the same initial direction.

I would also love to have a true roll, pitch and yaw.

I would also love to have gravitational forces from wormholes and planets accounted for.

That being said, these would make for some great additions to space "flight".

However, these would also allow for frequent cannon attacks by non escort ships, which would throw things off balance. Basically, balancing would need a rehaul.

shinseialpha · June 2012

Maybe the best way to approach this is to add new ship abilities/skills for both offence and defence which allow smaller ships to say do a temporary roll (lasting for a short period) much like evasive manoeuvre and another for larger ships (shorter as scale of ship increases) that can be used when trying to make a quick getaway i.e. the roll the Enterprise E made in Nemesis.

bumperthumper · June 2012

shinseialpha wrote: »

Maybe the best way to approach this is to add new ship abilities/skills for both offence and defence which allow smaller ships to say do a temporary roll (lasting for a short period) much like evasive manoeuvre and another for larger ships (shorter as scale of ship increases) that can be used when trying to make a quick getaway i.e. the roll the Enterprise E made in Nemesis.

Ship consoles with a % modifier from the ship's current turn rate would also work. A cruiser doing a roll would take more time than an Escort, while the Science Vessels would be in between. However, if a Cruiser had a full-on RCS stack, then it may be on par w/an Escort for these different "flight" options.

mriedstra95 · June 2012

I want to be able to go full impulse, cut it, then whip around my ship in any direction, while still using the momentum from the initial impulse burst to travel in the same initial direction.

I would also love to have a true roll, pitch and yaw.

I would also love to have gravitational forces from wormholes and planets accounted for.

That being said, these would make for some great additions to space "flight".

However, these would also allow for frequent cannon attacks by non escort ships, which would throw things off balance. Basically, balancing would need a rehaul.

This is exactly what I was getting at. It would be nice, but probably not practical for the devs.

Maybe the developers never played bridge commander, maybe there's something wrong with this view. But if your just looking for space combat in a star trek universe with a realistic feel that's as good as it got. The galaxy class didn't lumber around like a boat, and roll when you didn't want it to. Now it didn't feel like a fighter ship either, it felt like a big ship with powerful impulse engines and not enough thrusters. Exactly what it was in star trek. The bird of prey was very maneuverable and fast as it was both in the show and in Star Trek, when I first played bridge commander, I actually felt as if I was in control of the entire ship.

Bridge Commander still didn't have all of the controls I wanted if I were to go around in the delta flyer all day long, as I didn't have direct top, bottom, left and right thruster controls. And _that_ is asking a lot for star trek online.

As for the boat-like feeling - that's EXACTLY how a starSHIP should feel. Having wings on a BoP means nothing in space - there's no air to create lift. A popcorn-shaped starship, a popsicle-shaped starship and a rocked-shaped starship would all feel the same way, as long as they have similar mass and thruster positions.

Do me a favor, play Bridge Commander, better yet, play it with KM installed. It feels much more realistic than STO. But not crazy and uncontrollable.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=star+trek+bridge+commander&_sacat=0

http://bckobayashimaru.de/ws/index.php?id=downloads

If you play it and get used to it, you'll find that if you added the online play and rpg elements allowing you to change your weapons, shields etc. In my opinion, it'd be perfect.

fovrel · June 2012

Space flight and space combat sometimes feel silly and limited in this game. Sometimes you have to spiral down to reach an object below you. Also, when the universe is tilted from you perspective, you cannot horizon it, make it level.

The reason for this, I think, is the fact that space flight, space combat is handled by the game engine that also handles ground combat, and it is probably a ground combat game engine, adapted for space/flight combat. Your ship is actually your character with a different skin.

Nevertheless it should be possible to fly vertical down or up and you should be able to fly upside down. In World of ******** you can do that, why not here?

bumperthumper · June 2012

fovrel wrote: »

The reason for this, I think, is the fact that space flight, space combat is handled by the game engine that also handles ground combat, and it is probably a ground combat game engine, adapted for space/flight combat. Your ship is actually your character with a different skin.

BSGO, when I played it at least, also ran off of a different engine than physics applied in space. The engine was designed for a submarine simulation. Funny thing is, it actually had a "Slide" function. If they could do that semi-successfully with a submarine simulation engine, I would love to know what kind of engine is preventing us from doing the same. I WANT SLIDE!

fovrel wrote: »

Nevertheless it should be possible to fly vertical down or up and you should be able to fly upside down. In World of ******** you can do that, why not here?

I concur. At least 90 degrees up or down should be allowed. Upside-down would be fantabulous!

mriedstra95 · June 2012

I'm obviously not the only one that thinks this should be added to the game, I wonder why the devs haven't ever gotten around to it.

dank65 · June 2012

mriedstra95 wrote: »

I'm obviously not the only one that thinks this should be added to the game, I wonder why the devs haven't ever gotten around to it.

This has been asked for since launch and with the same answer form the Dev's evertime and
as someone has already stated here the game engine will not accomodate it.

So in a nutshell............................. never gonna happen.

drunkenguyver · June 2012

I suppose the only thing i would like to improve is the maximum vertical angle you can achieve, rather than having to spiral up or down to an enemy below or above you . . i've often wondered why you can just point straight up or down and fly directly to them?

I'm happy with the controls other than that little niggle

treaen · July 2012

Back on the old forum, I criticized the 2.5D nature of the game a few times. It's actually one of my biggest problems with the Star Trek franchise.

Reading through the comments here, it's interesting to see the different ways people are interpreting this request. I think it's mainly due to conflating trying to control the game with a joystick and three-dimensional space flight as a "fighter" thing not a "starship" thing. And I guess it's true in the traditional sense of how our real-life vessels are piloted. But I also don't think it's what anybody meant.

The real question here is, I think, an existential one. Roddenberry conceived a system of space "flight" based on naval operations. It's a bizarre mix in a lot of ways because, generally speaking, "piloting" is reserved for people who fly things and "helming" is reserved for people who sail things. The two terms are used interchangeably on the shows and in the movies, despite the fact that no one ever "sails", though they're sometimes "dead in the water". It's all particularly frustrating from a physics point of view, especially for a universe that was always so grounded in tech-talk; mainly because there's no gravity in space and we should therefore not be limited to operating a vessel on a dynamic two-dimensional plane.

At this point, I suspect that everyone's a little bit right. It's probably not an overwhelmingly complicated thing to code something with a Z axis in general. But doing it to the game would mean a complete overhaul of the way the game works, which is no small task and, quite frankly, means that the devs would just be starting over. I suppose in the end, the case the devs made against it when they were first developing the game is that it doesn't "feel" like Trek because it never happened in Trek.

I think back in the day, Roddenberry probably chose to do it this way because everything was shot with upside-down models on sticks and there just wasn't a graceful way to make the stick do a barrel roll. But he didn't anticipate us playing a game based on his world nor did he anticipate the awkwardness of spiraling up or down to get to something. Maybe if there's ever a STO2.0......

Advanced Flight Controls

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