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Revealed Live on STOked: New T2.5 Cruiser, console ability

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    But you suggest giving these to Gold players. So that's going to remove a lot of incentive for subscribers to pay 800 CPoints. Gold members paying is working as designed. I'm pretty sure the theme of STO:F2P is... subscribing is supposed to be a bad idea since Cryptic would rather take your money one microtransaction at a time in order to further monetize their LTSer base.

    In fact, since in your suggestion you still have to buy the new ship with Dilithium to make this work, and wouldn't get the new consoles, it would never make sense to pay equal amounts of CPoints for this (and charging less would cut into 800CP ship sales) since with the current x.5/+1 ships you also get you a spiffy console and a free load of Dilithium when you rank up.

    Gold is another low labor investment that I think Cryptic would be wise to think of as a repeatable microtransaction rather than as a subscription. Yeah, that doesn't account for lifers but I also kinda think maybe they should stop selling lifetimes with F2P. They got a nice cash influx from it but it's not really the future.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Gold is another low labor investment that I think Cryptic would be wise to think of as a repeatable microtransaction rather than as a subscription. Yeah, that doesn't account for lifers but I also kinda think maybe they should stop selling lifetimes with F2P. They got a nice cash influx from it but it's not really the future.

    They should have stopped selling LTSes at launch. But they didn't. They know that those people who bought them were willing to invest a large sum of money. So of course they view the continued monetizing of those blue-names as low hanging fruit. And more or less they seem to have been proven correct.

    So yeah, expect to be looking at a lot of microtransactions, because the STO-team believes you will pay them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Because we will pay. I have been an LTS since before launch. On top of that, I have spent quite a bit in the c-store (which I probably wouldn't if I had been paying each month).

    Cryptic continues to get a lot of money from the Lifetime subscriptions. I know of at least 5 people within 12th fleet who have only just bought their LTS and I am know of many more who are just waiting on a bit more cash.

    You should also realise that you do not need these +1 ships, they are not at much better. They have useful abilities which you can use on later ships too, but an extra boff slot etc doesn't necessarily make you that much more powerful.

    You can get a normal ship, and still easily destroy a +1 ship. It isn't what you can buy, but how you use what you have got.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    They should have stopped selling LTSes at launch. But they didn't. They know that those people who bought them were willing to invest a large sum of money. So of course they view the continued monetizing of those blue-names as low hanging fruit. And more or less they seem to have been proven correct.

    So yeah, expect to be looking at a lot of microtransactions, because the STO-team believes you will pay them.

    I'm not against those. I want them to do more. I just want them to be LOTS of low labor microtransactions while the bulk of the labor goes into content or things that can be repurposed as content.

    I was totally in favor of the single sale bridge officers.

    They're going to have to hit certain revenue goals with the C-Store. They have a fixed team size. The less labor intensive C-Store services are, the more the labor budget can be poured into improving the core game.

    I absolutely see it as a tradeoff. And the problem is, the C-Store offers too much permanent value with things like account unlocks coupled with Lifetime Subs offering too much permanent value. Which makes the devs slaves to C-Store development because they have to make another sale next month because what they sold this month is a one time sale.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Given the significant difference between a buffed ship and an unbuffed ship, yes, when there is significant cause for concern when one of those ships has access to an additional Bridge Officer ability. To say otherwise is completely ridiculous. It might not matter if someone who doesn't know better slots a weak power or one that doesn't fit with the rest of the build but with Bridge Officers more is most certainly an advantage. And to make matters worse, these ships come with even more.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    Then I was the one being touchy at what I saw as a another pointless attempt at starting the blame game.
    my apoligies.

    No need to apologise. Harmless banter, and nothing more.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Personally I think the P2Wnes of these new ships as late are all 'p2w' because of one thing

    Their aimed at an F2P game, which STO isn't yet

    Once STO goes F2P those ships and all the lovely awesome bonuses they get will be easy to acquire (thankfully saving Cryptic from having to design missions across the board to acquire them all) through Dilithium trading and the DOFF system (read Doff for Doofuses and watch STO 100 for awesome clarification) it won't be P2W anymore... it'll be TRADE to win lol

    T2W ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Katic wrote: »
    The boys over at STOked just dropped a Tricobalt Device.

    The T2.5 Connie Refit will come with a console dealing with Sensors, giving a passive Sensor boost, as well as an ability.

    The Ability is an Emission Sensing Torpedo.

    If you just flashed back to ST:VI, and Scottys "Things gotta have a tail-pipe."

    Then you, my friend, are right.

    The Emission sensing torpedo modifies your next torpedo attack (ala High-Yield Torpedo or Torpedo Spread) and when fired, your next torpedo will not only wander just like in ST:VI, but will hit, and then decloak the nearest Cloaked Vessel.

    As a pro-KDF player, may I state, I do not in any way have a problem with this console. My only issue is if the Connie Refit itself is another P2W ship, which it is likely to be.

    The only issue I'd have is the fact that that flaw in the cloak design was obviously fixed later on. There's a reason why these torps aren't standard issue, and that's because the cloaking races realized this weakness and fixed the issue. Otherwise, Star Trek Nemesis would've been over a lot quicker.

    Part of stealth in space is the fact that you internalize all exhaust and heat. That means heat sinks, and storing waste material on board. There's a reason that cloaked ships regularly drop cloak at certain intervals.. because, otherwise, they'd eventually cook their crew alive.

    That all being said, I still think it will be a cool ability. Would love to be able to have a true counter to BoPs who drop in and out of cloak. Especially since the Feds are likely to never get a combat cloak.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    AdmGillis wrote: »
    The only issue I'd have is the fact that that flaw in the cloak design was obviously fixed later on. There's a reason why these torps aren't standard issue, and that's because the cloaking races realized this weakness and fixed the issue. Otherwise, Star Trek Nemesis would've been over a lot quicker.

    Part of stealth in space is the fact that you internalize all exhaust and heat. That means heat sinks, and storing waste material on board. There's a reason that cloaked ships regularly drop cloak at certain intervals.. because, otherwise, they'd eventually cook their crew alive.

    That all being said, I still think it will be a cool ability. Would love to be able to have a true counter to BoPs who drop in and out of cloak. Especially since the Feds are likely to never get a combat cloak.

    Valid point but... to internalize ALL exhaust, and ALL heat requires a great deal of technological precision. Likely cloaking navies internalize most of the exhaust caused by their systems and most of the heat boiling off of their hulls. Before they were internalized effectively enough that exhaust sensor torpedoes were no longer viable, now the pendulum has swung the other way, micro-construction technology has advanced enough that certain specialized ships can produce torpedoes with sensors sensitive enough to detect cloaking vessels that are still small enough to not inhibit the torpedoes function.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Katic wrote: »
    The P2W issue isn't because it's a Fed ship, it has to do with the ships Boff and Console Layout.

    Ships available and earn-able free in-game have specific Boff & Console set-ups. The new ships, like the Venture, the Vor'Kang, and the Rhode Island, all have Extra Boff slots and Consoles compared to their free counterparts, making them better, and only available (for the time being) by paying real money, thus, P2W.

    It's likely that this as-yet-unnamed Connie Variant will be have similar improvements, and also be P2W.

    If there's any specific Klingon Grumbling, it's because along with the P2W ships come new Ship Costumes, and so far, the Feds are getting two for every one the KDF does.

    And let me repeat, a nebulous promised future fix does not mitigate that they are Pay to Win right now.

    It is just a test build that might be incomplete, but currently, the "fix" on Tribble looks more like these ships will be a definite C-Store only thing, and the nebulous fix must be the Dilithium/C-Store auction thingy. Even the new P2W retrofits seem to suffer that fate.

    I'd definitely watch this carefully.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Jermbot wrote: »
    Valid point but... to internalize ALL exhaust, and ALL heat requires a great deal of technological precision. Likely cloaking navies internalize most of the exhaust caused by their systems and most of the heat boiling off of their hulls. Before they were internalized effectively enough that exhaust sensor torpedoes were no longer viable, now the pendulum has swung the other way, micro-construction technology has advanced enough that certain specialized ships can produce torpedoes with sensors sensitive enough to detect cloaking vessels that are still small enough to not inhibit the torpedoes function.

    Then why are these sensors not standard issue in all the UFP Vessels Sensor systems? Why just on a torpedo?

    As long as the KDF and Romulans ar given the benefit of the doubt that they as a space faring cloaking Navies would have still been perfecting their Claoking tradecraft and posses the Technological precision to keep abreast in the arms race I will be happy.

    It currently doesn't look as if that the case and the non-UFP factions are destined to go the way of the DoDo unless the Devs have something that makes sense for the other factions to balance the issues.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    umm... Katic? i recently rewatched The Undiscovered Country, and the one who said 'thing's gotta have a tailpipe' was Uhura, not Scotty (all he did was yell a few lines about the shields during that battle)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    Then why are these sensors not standard issue in all the UFP Vessels Sensor systems? Why just on a torpedo?

    That's what I'm wondering too. Though even on the series effectiveness of sensors and cloaks varied from episode to episode technology like that would become standard issue pretty fast.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    That's what I'm wondering too. Though even on the series effectiveness of sensors and cloaks varied from episode to episode technology like that would become standard issue pretty fast.

    Thats what I think as well. Also once the Klingons and Romulans learned of such technology they would (individuality) start trying to create a counter for it, be that betetr cloaking technology or a confusion (chaff) system designed to counter it specifically.

    Where is the arms race? or is STO quickly becoming P2W again and we all are about to see the next big thing since Pengs?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    Thats what I think as well. Also once the Klingons and Romulans learned of such technology they would (individuality) start trying to create a counter for it, be that betetr cloaking technology or a confusion (chaff) system designed to counter it specifically.

    Where is the arms race? or is STO quickly becoming P2W again and we all are about to see the next big thing since Pengs?

    "Again?" When did it pause in that? It's been going that route since the Gal-X and the Oberth. It's arguably been going that route since the T5+ refits were available for 500 Emblems or the C-Store. It may not be "pay to win," but it's certainly "Pay For Edge."

    I like the Connie refit (kind of) and in an ideal world there'd be all sorts of rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock powers and abilities to match and counter other powers. But it's like the game is an open box and folks are throwing awesome cool stuff into it willy-nilly. For every power given to one side, there should be some sort of counter by the other side available, or some kind of response. Arms race, as you said. The Klingons are not dumb. Where's the counters to the Nebula's tachyon net and now this?

    It almost makes me wish that they HAD brought in SVC from Star Fleet Battles in to consult. For all his faults, the guy does know balance. (Plus he and Steve Petrick are Klink fans. Seriously, Klinks get all the cool stuff in SFB. STO could do worse than have those guys giving suggestions and balancing out the other stuff Fredside.)

    I am really, really hoping Cryptic isn't getting their marching orders from someone who believes in this. That would be rather more unpleasant than I would like to consider.


    * - Plus, you know... MAULERS. And SCSs. And plasma decoys. And B-10 battleships. Honnert Pointz uf Plazzma, right on a down'd shield. ("You Die!") Boom-de-yah-dah, boom-de-yah-dah...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    V-Mink wrote:
    "Again?" When did it pause in that? It's been going that route since the Gal-X and the Oberth. It's arguably been going that route since the T5+ refits were available for 500 Emblems or the C-Store. It may not be "pay to win," but it's certainly "Pay For Edge."
    I was trying to imitate the "Orange" as mentioned by Beatrice and be civil in my assumption of the truth. I can still see a church by daylight.
    I like the Connie refit (kind of) and in an ideal world there'd be all sorts of rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock powers and abilities to match and counter other powers. But it's like the game is an open box and folks are throwing awesome cool stuff into it willy-nilly. For every power given to one side, there should be some sort of counter by the other side available, or some kind of response. Arms race, as you said. The Klingons are not dumb. Where's the counters to the Nebula's tachyon net and now this?

    It almost makes me wish that they HAD brought in SVC from Star Fleet Battles in to consult. For all his faults, the guy does know balance. (Plus he and Steve Petrick are Klink fans. Seriously, Klinks get all the cool stuff in SFB. STO could do worse than have those guys giving suggestions and balancing out the other stuff Fredside.)

    I am really, really hoping Cryptic isn't getting their marching orders from someone who believes in this. That would be rather more unpleasant than I would like to consider.

    * - Plus, you know... MAULERS. And SCSs. And plasma decoys. And B-10 battleships. Honnert Pointz uf Plazzma, right on a down'd shield. ("You Die!") Boom-de-yah-dah, boom-de-yah-dah...

    Exactly! Where are the non-fed cool technologies? The isolentic consoles id certainly not one of them when compared to the AMS, Carriers in a game stacked to both produce and destroy spam at a whim is hardly a wonderous example of KDF combat ingenuity, etc and etc.
    Where is the KDF uniqueness of approach to combat and technologies there-in related?
    What can the Romulans expect to have as thier "flavor" when they arrive if all useful ideas only come from one faction?

    Granted KDF and the Rommies have cloaking, but its hardly the end all be all power that many claim it to be. Especially now.

    Assure us Cryptic that we are not seeing a throw back to the days that started the whole "pandering" forum wars with the release of these cool (and they are really cool) toys to the sandbox.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Would be nice if they can just come out and say it, but it won't happen. Do you guys test this out in pvp situations or no?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Hah! I'd almost forgotten about The Noob. Good comic. =)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    That is a pretty ship. Shame its only 2.5 :( I at least have a new wallpaper, and anyone heard about an ETA on it?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I'm disappointed in the Console Ability.

    P2W seems more clear than ever. :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    P2W seems more clear than ever. :(

    If the Dilithium/C-Point exchange starts working as intended then I see no reason to worry.

    Players who do not wish to pay (in money) to win can do the time honored traditional pay (in time) to win by selling their Dilithium for someone's C-Points.

    Problem solved.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    If the Dilithium/C-Point exchange starts working as intended then I see no reason to worry.

    Players who do not wish to pay (in money) to win can do the time honored traditional pay (in time) to win by selling their Dilithium for someone's C-Points.

    Problem solved.

    That is a lot of if and still is a more complicated P2W, its just not you paying, its someone else.

    This whole system seems to rely on a lot of people wanting to sell CP for dilithium.


    Who actually plans to?

    The subbers, many seem a little too miffed to want to give Cryptic extra money, after all they are paying money already.

    Or

    Some mythical group of large new free players who want to trade real money for currency, where will they come from?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    That is a lot of if and still is a more complicated P2W, its just not you paying, its someone else.

    This whole system seems to rely on a lot of people wanting to sell CP for dilithium.


    Who actually plans to?

    1; People who have money to burn on C-Points, and want to get gear/ships/etc that are not on the C-Store.
    They will trade for Dilithium.

    2; Subbers and LTS will be getting a stipend and when we have no use for it within the C-Store we will sell that off to get Dilithium to use on non-C-Store gear etc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    1; People who have money to burn on C-Points, and want to get gear/ships/etc that are not on the C-Store.
    They will trade for Dilithium.

    I'm being specific, who actually plans to. I haven't seen a single post of people excited to be trading CP to dilithium only the other way around.

    Will mythical new players be that group, that seems to be a lot of banking on a group of people whose existence is totally theoretical.
    2; Subbers and LTS will be getting a stipend and when we have no use for it within the C-Store we will sell that off to get Dilithium to use on non-C-Store gear etc.

    I haven't seen a single post of people who want to give that away, almost every post seems to be saying there is too little.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    II haven't seen a single post of people who want to give that away, almost every post seems to be saying there is too little.

    Then let me be one at least; I fully intend to trade off stipend points for Dilithium.
    There is only so much I want from the C-Store, and I have most of it already.
    The majority of new shiny things I want will likely be Dilithium priced, so I will want Dilithium, not C-Points.

    No I won't trade all of them, likely half every month so that I can stockpile in-case of something I must have hitting the C-Store.

    But if even ten people like me choose to sell 200 points a month thats 2000 points up for grabs.
    I suspect there will be enough to go around.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Then let me be one at least; I fully intend to trade off stipend points for Dilithium.
    There is only so much I want from the C-Store, and I have most of it already.
    The majority of new shiny things I want will likely be Dilithium priced, so I will want Dilithium, not C-Points.

    No I won't trade all of them, likely half every month so that I can stockpile in-case of something I must have hitting the C-Store.

    But if even ten people like me choose to sell 200 points a month thats 2000 points up for grabs.
    I suspect there will be enough to go around.

    Well, I'm much more skeptical than you.

    After all, I avoid the exchange like the plague and this looks more and more like its going to be far worse.

    There are hundreds of dollars worth of stuff in the C-Store and I don't think enough people are going to be willing to give up money for in game currency, we'll see.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Well, I'm much more skeptical than you.

    Well thats a good thing.

    If feedback came from people who were all like me then we wouldn't get anywhere. :rolleyes:
    I tend to be less skeptical and less harsh (no bad connotations to that word, sometimes harshness is needed) because I want game development to be my full time job.

    In effect I sympathize with Cryptic.

    Its good to have less sympathetic viewpoints as well to get a rounded outcome.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011


    **edited**
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    Then why are these sensors not standard issue in all the UFP Vessels Sensor systems? Why just on a torpedo?

    ALERT: Technobabble ahead.

    Ships in combat use their targeting sensors to track and target enemy ships. And countermeasures n their sensors suite to thwart the other guys targeting sensors. A normal torpedo has a suite of sensors sensors (like it's parent ship) to guide it to it's target. The suite of sensors would have active scanners (e.g. radar/sonar-like active sensors) and ECCM (Electronic Counter Counter Measures) to cut through the ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) of the target ship. The sensor package used is the norm that the other guys are using.

    We see in ST:VI Spock and McCoy transplanting all of the sensors in a torpedo with the gas sensors That leads me to speculate the gas sensors have to replace the normal sensor suite of the torpedo. And the gas sensors are passive and short range active sensors; and they work like the nose of a bloodhound. The sensors have to in the plasma exhaust stream to be able to follow it.

    That also leads me to speculate that the Emissions Sensing Torpedo is useless as warp speeds. So you have a weapon that can only be used at sublight speeds, and a weapon that has to hunt for it's target like a Hunting Targ by following it's trail. So ultimately the Emissions Tracking Torpedo it much to specialized to be a standard torpedo that ships would stock in quantity. Captains/Armory Officers may have a few on-hand if they are every needed. (Which would go along with the longish recharge time of the ability 120 seconds if I viewed the video accurately.).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    In all Practicality, I like this new ship and console.

    HOWEVER, this new console is useless in PvE because NPC BoP (Romulan and Klingon) if they cloak, don't stay cloaked very long to justify it's use.

    It seems this weapon was made for PvP, which in all practicality gives Klingons a distinct disadvantage.
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