Bad idea. It might be "realistic" but it's going to end up being terrible in practice. Take the Borg Events, now add in not only all of that damage and debuffs, but also being murdered by your own teammates. What will end up happening is people will transition completely to different weapons, and mines and tricobalt weapons will even be more marginalized.
I think its a very very bad idea.
One of the worst things I know of in games period is "Friendly Fire".
Not only is it extremely annoying, it also can and will be abused by griefers, and not to mention all the hate and screaming from people who get hit by that friendly fire, even if it is by accident.
There is a reason why most games today default Friendly Fire to "Off", or don't even have it at all.
Because in the end it really does not add anything positive to the game.
Should have read the first page first. My thought EXACTLY!
I can understand the need for a counter to the spam....but I dont think adding a consequence fully capable of being exploited much like what its meant to counter is a good idea.
Ever consider just reducing the ability to spam? Or even making some kindof consequence that directly effects the spammer themselves?
If reducing the numbers arent going to work without making them obselete then add an increase to damage but put a debuff on shields for the spammer. This makes him think twice about using mines or fighters. He takes a risk by launching these fighters/mines but also risks not doing enough damage by not.
I'm not a fan of this idea. Actually, I like the idea on paper, but based on my gaming experience, my guess is that it will just become a field day for griefers.
As it stands now, there are plenty of players that get their kicks by annoying the hell out of other players. I can't be the only one that remembers cover shield blocking, biothermal dampener spam, etc. This would pretty much give them the chance to really annoy other players that are out trying to complete objectives.
PvP? Griefers causing random annoyances to their own teammates for the lulz.
Auto-teaming on patrols? Eventually people will just auto-disable that.
Deep Space Encounters? Might as well completely kiss that corner of the game goodbye.
PvE Fleet Action queues? Welcome to another reason why people won't bother.
Upcoming STF queuing? A combination of grifers and player incompetence would probably cause MORE griping over STFs. Even with upcoming "normal" difficulty STFs, what's the point when you have to worry about your own teammates making up for that slight reduction in enemy difficulty and then some?
Sure, you can join Organized PvP or whatever, or hope to land yourself in a good fleet... but does this game REALLY need another thing that will make it less social? I just see this as being something that would be really detrimental if applied across the board.
While the idea sounds nice for HIgh Yield Heavy Torps, i m not sure that they ll play out nice in practice. Many builds do great without torps. The heavys are the only spike dmg cruisers and sci can put out. So please think about them remaining an asset to your team, and not a liability.
I think the dmg of plasmas should be adjusted to be in line with Tric2.0. This goes for both the Dot and the primary explosion. If they blow up with friendly fire, their defense stat needs a drastic increase as well as a speed bump, esp, Plasma Hy2-3.
Now about those NPC 3x HY-Plasmas...
Otherwise, a) shoot em at a distance and some enemy bfaw-healer with 25 weapons energy just caused +40k dmg to my team, or
b) shoot em at point blank, and go down with your target
Not really fun, in either direction.
non-heavy torps, sure why not as long as it has a very, very , very small AoE.
I think for single target powers, like HYT, having it do damage would be nice but regular torps should only be a concern if you're practically flying into the target as you fire. I think this definitely encourages PvP Escorts that like to just swing behind and sit still while firing everything to back off some.
I can't really even think of a time where I've gotten so close to an enemy that I'd take any real damage from friendly fire and it adds another level of intelligence requirements to play well in PvE and PvP.
I would like to see regular torps and Mines do minimal to no damage like I said above. Single target skills like HYT should add to damage (again only if you're extremely close) and Torp Spread should give the most damage of them all.
Though I agree with a previous poster regarding increasing our Warp Core damage to enemies.
I would also love to see Abandon Ship altered to "Self Destruct" give it a long cooldown but a bigger punch so it's not just a theme skill I take off my power tray when I get it (Kinda like Ramming Speed became after it was nerfed) or even better have Abandon Ship become a buff to Warp Core Explosion damage. So knowing my crew is safe and in this no-win scenario I go down with the ship and time the core breach so that it does maximum damage.
would mean i'd have to reconsider my point blank Torpedo Shotgun moves in PvE but i agree it's more realistic. Needs to be some downside to a Brel with full Aux sneaking right up under an enemy ship and unloading a tricobalt in PvP (yes... i've done that). That said it shouldn't just be "friendly fire" otherwise in huge battles we're gonna get huge charlie foxtrots as people have pointed out.
This looks like the final death blow for Heavy Plasma torps...
They were very nice when used properly, ie very close range.
Now this very close range is gonna hit me too?
Well, now they look like another weapon to join the ranks of the Lolarons and Lolyons.
"Say hello to your new friend Lolsma Torpedos.
We are considering a change in the way we handle most explosions in space and would like to invite comment from the community:
Specifically, we are thinking of handling things like mines, plasma balls and tricobalt torpedoes the same way that we handle warp core breaches - that is, they affect friend and foe alike.
Note, mines would still only track hostile targets, but if a friendly target was nearby a hostile target when the mine went off, the friendly target would also take damage.
Obviously, this would have to be attendant to changes and tweaks in certain powers to ensure that there is still a usefulness in the game for all powers. This would, in fact, free us up a bit to buff some things that otherwise would be too risky to buff.
As an idea, this has the possibility to be good, bad... or even both at the same time. A lot will be down to implementation I think, but I'm willing to keep an open mind.
This looks like the final death blow for Heavy Plasma torps...
They were very nice when used properly, ie very close range.
Now this very close range is gonna hit me too?
Well, now they look like another weapon to join the ranks of the Lolarons and Lolyons.
"Say hello to your new friend Lolsma Torpedos.
As mentioned in the OP, these weapons would be getting a buff that they would otherwise be unable to get in exchange for the AoE potential. At least, that's how I read it.
This looks like the final death blow for Heavy Plasma torps...
They were very nice when used properly, ie very close range.
Now this very close range is gonna hit me too?
Well, now they look like another weapon to join the ranks of the Lolarons and Lolyons.
"Say hello to your new friend Lolsma Torpedos.
This is a valid concern though. HYT in the rear, giving you distance before detonations?
+Initial Burst has a chance to spread to nearby ships, making this the go-to anti-spam weapon
High Yield Torpedo
+Increased DoT, AoE (Rank I+)
+diminishes launch rate for mines, fighters (Rank II+)
-AoE Friendly Fire (rank I+)
This would also favor it on Escorts, BoP, etc.
The biggest disappointment between weapon types is a lack of viable for most of them and a lack of clear roles: the procs are so negligible that it's best to get burst or sustained dps from lower-end torps than bother with the headaches from high-end ones.
I'd be in favor of it. Would need to test before I decide for sure, but torpedoes have always had a small aoe effect, so even when you use it against clustered enemies it rarely does much unless you unleash a torpedo spread. So I would imagine it would just add a bit of danger when flying way too close to enemies. Sure, some people will get screwed by their teammates in battles, but we'll all learn how to fly safely eventually, and experienced teammates will show some courtesy. Some players will always shoot before they look, but bad teammates have always been a hindrance, and I can't see friendly fire being much more than that. Just have to know you trust your team before you do a warp plasma dive into the borg spheres.
Sounds like a cool idea, though it kinda gimps KDF should they wish to run carrier pets and or mines, perhaps when pet numbers get reduced but individual pet strength increases so fighters dont get insta killed. this may be nice so they can actually absorb some explosion damage. Also giving pet AI the abilty to shoot down enemy mines would be a big plus.
As for the plasma torpedo change, plasma IMHO is the worst weapon in the game an seriously needs fixing, the torps and weapon proc is just horrible, all it does is offer your enemy a greater chance to trigger a borg heal with the plasma fire proc, that is so weak its just pathetic.
As someone who uses plasma torps on one of my builds just for the lolz they are one of the worst torpedoes in the game, even with HY. Making them do friendly fire, without further buffs would be a waste.
They seriously need a big speed boost as well as dmg buff and immunity / resistance to being shot down.
I'm gonna have say nay about your proposed change. The big issue with be griefers. Player who will deliberately use the friendly fire to kill other player. Anything that throws player together will be hell to play. The Borg DSE's are a perfect example of why this is a bad idea.
I believe you would just be creating more work for your GMs. Player reports will increase. And it will be hard to determine if the acts were just innocent or deliberate. Asking yourself as devs can you determine malice from just a lousy player. I can foresee many innocent player getting caught with with infractions.
We are considering a change in the way we handle most explosions in space and would like to invite comment from the community:
Specifically, we are thinking of handling things like mines, plasma balls and tricobalt torpedoes the same way that we handle warp core breaches - that is, they affect friend and foe alike.
Note, mines would still only track hostile targets, but if a friendly target was nearby a hostile target when the mine went off, the friendly target would also take damage.
Obviously, this would have to be attendant to changes and tweaks in certain powers to ensure that there is still a usefulness in the game for all powers. This would, in fact, free us up a bit to buff some things that otherwise would be too risky to buff.
First off, I suggested as much a while ago that certain weaponry affects everyone, which would naturally prevent spamming and more of a realistic style of fighting. But Tricobalts already have a small area of effect (should be larger since these are powerful explosives).
Tricobalts: This is my favorite weapon in all of STO, and is great when it damages the opponent (which normally is when the shields are down - should do somekind of shield damage).
However, these are highly prone to launch failures. During Launch, shortly after leaving the launch tube, and getting shot down by effects and attacks.
Plasma Torpedoes: Normal Plasma Torpedoes is rather weak, High Yield Plasma Torpedos suffers much of the Tricobalt faults. Though could see player HYPTs similar to the D'deridex's where HY3 = 3 HY Plasma Torpedoes. This might give it some viability with players.
Perhaps include the Fake Plasma Torpedo that does 0 damage, but players cannot tell if it's a real HY torpedo or not.
Also, Plasma Torpedoes (along with Plasma energy weapons) need a higher proc rate with higher DOT damage similar to the Undine weaponry.
Mines: Outside of Tricobalt Mines and Chroniton Mines in PvP, mines in general are useless in battle.
The best use of Mines I seen was in the Starfleet Command games where they were avoided due to their high damage. But in STO, you can take an Escort fly through a minefield and hardly end up with a scratch (which is true in the Minefield FEs). So really, Mines need mine damage potential increased to the level of Tricobalts to be a useful weapon.
But to me, the way mines are implemented now in STO, they are best used like their DS9 and Real-World counterparts - to use as a defensive screen. Like I said above, their usefulness is ineffective in combat as a damage weapon (except the Tricobalt which is handy in the old STFs where you can mine the Transwarp Gates before the next wave).
So really, there you go, thats all Mines are really good for in STO (if they had good damage), in mining ahead of a known enemy attack and let them fly into it or having to go around.
With talks about AoE damage, might I suggeset this:
Photon - Moderate AoE / Moderate Kinetic
Quantum - Small AoE / High Kinetic
Plasma - Small AoE / Moderate Kinetic / Moderate DoT
Transphasic - Small AoE / Moderate Kinetic (higher shield bypass than torpedoes)
Chroniton - Small AoE / Small Kinetic / Small DoT (Radiation Dot) / Short Slow Effect
Tricobalt - Large Radius AoE (5km) / Very High Kinetic Damage / Stun Effect varies due to distance (the closer, the longer the effect).
This could go somewhat with the Torpedoes as well.
I'd like to see some of these projectiles also have a small chance to cloak once they have fired it would be fun Plus for the KDF Sci's that we have we kinda need some kinda purpose for our sensor scan because we really run into a lot of cloaked enemies... *being sarcastic* I like the idea of more risk in spamming but whatever happens with that idea I'm down with it
These changes sound interesting Ill wait to decide if I like it till I see it in action but what I don't like are all these balance changes trickling into the game. IMO all that should be changed right now are abilities that are grossly overpowered and or causing real problems for PvPers.
Then the majority of the overhaul to space abilities should come all at once in one big well thought out and well tested build. Put the space overhaul on the test server for a good month with rewards that carry over to the main server and get at least the hardcore PvP community on there testing and integrate the necessary changes based on their feed back (btw I'm not one of the hardcore PvPers). Then listen to the PvE community to make sure nothing gets broken on their side on higher difficulties. After its all vetted then push the whole thing at once.
When the rules of a game are in constant flux the game can get very frustrating. Ive dealt with it in other games and I really don't want to deal with it here.
With talks about AoE damage, might I suggeset this:
Photon - Moderate AoE / Moderate Kinetic
Quantum - Small AoE / High Kinetic
Plasma - Small AoE / Moderate Kinetic / Moderate DoT
Transphasic - Small AoE / Moderate Kinetic (higher shield bypass than torpedoes)
Chroniton - Small AoE / Small Kinetic / Small DoT (Radiation Dot) / Short Slow Effect
Tricobalt - Large Radius AoE (5km) / Very High Kinetic Damage / Stun Effect varies due to distance (the closer, the longer the effect).
Since Heretic didn't mention many of these as being impacted, why not remove the AoE effect from most of them--allowing for these weapons to have different "feels" and roles?
I actually like the potential of this particular adjustment. I didn't expect to, especially considering some of the other "proposals" here recently, but I'm at least interested in seeing this on the testing server.
Since Heretic didn't mention many of these as being impacted, why not remove the AoE effect from most of them--allowing for these weapons to have different "feels" and roles?
That was pretty much the idea in giving them different feels and uses.
But remember these are powerful explosives and need somekind of AoE, but the small AoEs wouldn't be any different than the ones we got now with Torpedo impacts with less than 1km.
Quick addendum: I just updated the torpedo AI so, when my update finishes testing and goes live, a high-yield torpedo (say, a HYT Plasma) will retarget to the nearest legal enemy if its target is destroyed before it arrives. Keep this in mind, since your torp might make a sudden hard right to the enemy in the middle of your formation . . .
Quick addendum: I just updated the torpedo AI so, when my update finishes testing and goes live, a high-yield torpedo (say, a HYT Plasma) will retarget to the nearest legal enemy if its target is destroyed before it arrives. Keep this in mind, since your torp might make a sudden hard right to the enemy in the middle of your formation . . .
Does this apply to the "normal" torps (Quantums, etc) as well, or just the destructibles?
Quick addendum: I just updated the torpedo AI so, when my update finishes testing and goes live, a high-yield torpedo (say, a HYT Plasma) will retarget to the nearest legal enemy if its target is destroyed before it arrives. Keep this in mind, since your torp might make a sudden hard right to the enemy in the middle of your formation . . .
Does this work for other HY torps such as quantums?
If you fire a HY torpedo, and you get scrambled just after it launches and your target also dies. Does this mean the HY torpedo could switch to one of your teammates and hit him? or possibly hit yourself if your still scrambled?
All these changes are nice but can you please nerf torpedo spread already. Its so game breaking unbalanced atm.
At least switch spread and HY damage around so spread does weak damage to multiple targets and HY does more damage to one target.
Comments
I agree with this 100%.
Especially when f2p hits. It will be abused.
Should have read the first page first. My thought EXACTLY!
Ever consider just reducing the ability to spam? Or even making some kindof consequence that directly effects the spammer themselves?
If reducing the numbers arent going to work without making them obselete then add an increase to damage but put a debuff on shields for the spammer. This makes him think twice about using mines or fighters. He takes a risk by launching these fighters/mines but also risks not doing enough damage by not.
As it stands now, there are plenty of players that get their kicks by annoying the hell out of other players. I can't be the only one that remembers cover shield blocking, biothermal dampener spam, etc. This would pretty much give them the chance to really annoy other players that are out trying to complete objectives.
PvP? Griefers causing random annoyances to their own teammates for the lulz.
Auto-teaming on patrols? Eventually people will just auto-disable that.
Deep Space Encounters? Might as well completely kiss that corner of the game goodbye.
PvE Fleet Action queues? Welcome to another reason why people won't bother.
Upcoming STF queuing? A combination of grifers and player incompetence would probably cause MORE griping over STFs. Even with upcoming "normal" difficulty STFs, what's the point when you have to worry about your own teammates making up for that slight reduction in enemy difficulty and then some?
Sure, you can join Organized PvP or whatever, or hope to land yourself in a good fleet... but does this game REALLY need another thing that will make it less social? I just see this as being something that would be really detrimental if applied across the board.
For Gameplay, the worst idea ever. Just thinking of the Borg DSE and all the spreads that go off
Maybe for Tri-Cobalts, but for Photons and Quantums, even on spreads, to injure friendly players
Id actually stop teaming in space, and on ground missions once you implement it there.
But yeah, worst gameplay idea ever.
^This for mine spam^
While the idea sounds nice for HIgh Yield Heavy Torps, i m not sure that they ll play out nice in practice. Many builds do great without torps. The heavys are the only spike dmg cruisers and sci can put out. So please think about them remaining an asset to your team, and not a liability.
I think the dmg of plasmas should be adjusted to be in line with Tric2.0. This goes for both the Dot and the primary explosion. If they blow up with friendly fire, their defense stat needs a drastic increase as well as a speed bump, esp, Plasma Hy2-3.
Now about those NPC 3x HY-Plasmas...
Otherwise, a) shoot em at a distance and some enemy bfaw-healer with 25 weapons energy just caused +40k dmg to my team, or
b) shoot em at point blank, and go down with your target
Not really fun, in either direction.
non-heavy torps, sure why not as long as it has a very, very , very small AoE.
I can't really even think of a time where I've gotten so close to an enemy that I'd take any real damage from friendly fire and it adds another level of intelligence requirements to play well in PvE and PvP.
I would like to see regular torps and Mines do minimal to no damage like I said above. Single target skills like HYT should add to damage (again only if you're extremely close) and Torp Spread should give the most damage of them all.
Though I agree with a previous poster regarding increasing our Warp Core damage to enemies.
I would also love to see Abandon Ship altered to "Self Destruct" give it a long cooldown but a bigger punch so it's not just a theme skill I take off my power tray when I get it (Kinda like Ramming Speed became after it was nerfed) or even better have Abandon Ship become a buff to Warp Core Explosion damage. So knowing my crew is safe and in this no-win scenario I go down with the ship and time the core breach so that it does maximum damage.
Fortunately, the OP agrees and specifically only mentions Tric Torps, not the other varieties. :rolleyes:
They were very nice when used properly, ie very close range.
Now this very close range is gonna hit me too?
Well, now they look like another weapon to join the ranks of the Lolarons and Lolyons.
"Say hello to your new friend Lolsma Torpedos.
I love it!! Most epic sir
This is a valid concern though. HYT in the rear, giving you distance before detonations?
This would also favor it on Escorts, BoP, etc.
The biggest disappointment between weapon types is a lack of viable for most of them and a lack of clear roles: the procs are so negligible that it's best to get burst or sustained dps from lower-end torps than bother with the headaches from high-end ones.
As for the plasma torpedo change, plasma IMHO is the worst weapon in the game an seriously needs fixing, the torps and weapon proc is just horrible, all it does is offer your enemy a greater chance to trigger a borg heal with the plasma fire proc, that is so weak its just pathetic.
As someone who uses plasma torps on one of my builds just for the lolz they are one of the worst torpedoes in the game, even with HY. Making them do friendly fire, without further buffs would be a waste.
They seriously need a big speed boost as well as dmg buff and immunity / resistance to being shot down.
I believe you would just be creating more work for your GMs. Player reports will increase. And it will be hard to determine if the acts were just innocent or deliberate. Asking yourself as devs can you determine malice from just a lousy player. I can foresee many innocent player getting caught with with infractions.
First off, I suggested as much a while ago that certain weaponry affects everyone, which would naturally prevent spamming and more of a realistic style of fighting. But Tricobalts already have a small area of effect (should be larger since these are powerful explosives).
Tricobalts: This is my favorite weapon in all of STO, and is great when it damages the opponent (which normally is when the shields are down - should do somekind of shield damage).
However, these are highly prone to launch failures. During Launch, shortly after leaving the launch tube, and getting shot down by effects and attacks.
Plasma Torpedoes: Normal Plasma Torpedoes is rather weak, High Yield Plasma Torpedos suffers much of the Tricobalt faults. Though could see player HYPTs similar to the D'deridex's where HY3 = 3 HY Plasma Torpedoes. This might give it some viability with players.
Perhaps include the Fake Plasma Torpedo that does 0 damage, but players cannot tell if it's a real HY torpedo or not.
Also, Plasma Torpedoes (along with Plasma energy weapons) need a higher proc rate with higher DOT damage similar to the Undine weaponry.
Mines: Outside of Tricobalt Mines and Chroniton Mines in PvP, mines in general are useless in battle.
The best use of Mines I seen was in the Starfleet Command games where they were avoided due to their high damage. But in STO, you can take an Escort fly through a minefield and hardly end up with a scratch (which is true in the Minefield FEs). So really, Mines need mine damage potential increased to the level of Tricobalts to be a useful weapon.
But to me, the way mines are implemented now in STO, they are best used like their DS9 and Real-World counterparts - to use as a defensive screen. Like I said above, their usefulness is ineffective in combat as a damage weapon (except the Tricobalt which is handy in the old STFs where you can mine the Transwarp Gates before the next wave).
So really, there you go, thats all Mines are really good for in STO (if they had good damage), in mining ahead of a known enemy attack and let them fly into it or having to go around.
With talks about AoE damage, might I suggeset this:
Photon - Moderate AoE / Moderate Kinetic
Quantum - Small AoE / High Kinetic
Plasma - Small AoE / Moderate Kinetic / Moderate DoT
Transphasic - Small AoE / Moderate Kinetic (higher shield bypass than torpedoes)
Chroniton - Small AoE / Small Kinetic / Small DoT (Radiation Dot) / Short Slow Effect
Tricobalt - Large Radius AoE (5km) / Very High Kinetic Damage / Stun Effect varies due to distance (the closer, the longer the effect).
This could go somewhat with the Torpedoes as well.
Then the majority of the overhaul to space abilities should come all at once in one big well thought out and well tested build. Put the space overhaul on the test server for a good month with rewards that carry over to the main server and get at least the hardcore PvP community on there testing and integrate the necessary changes based on their feed back (btw I'm not one of the hardcore PvPers). Then listen to the PvE community to make sure nothing gets broken on their side on higher difficulties. After its all vetted then push the whole thing at once.
When the rules of a game are in constant flux the game can get very frustrating. Ive dealt with it in other games and I really don't want to deal with it here.
Since Heretic didn't mention many of these as being impacted, why not remove the AoE effect from most of them--allowing for these weapons to have different "feels" and roles?
I was thinking this also.
Stop fixing things that is not broken.
That was pretty much the idea in giving them different feels and uses.
But remember these are powerful explosives and need somekind of AoE, but the small AoEs wouldn't be any different than the ones we got now with Torpedo impacts with less than 1km.
As it is, mines are pretty much useless. They're only there to fill up your screen. (Chroniton procs aside)
Does this apply to the "normal" torps (Quantums, etc) as well, or just the destructibles?
Does this work for other HY torps such as quantums?
If you fire a HY torpedo, and you get scrambled just after it launches and your target also dies. Does this mean the HY torpedo could switch to one of your teammates and hit him? or possibly hit yourself if your still scrambled?
All these changes are nice but can you please nerf torpedo spread already. Its so game breaking unbalanced atm.
At least switch spread and HY damage around so spread does weak damage to multiple targets and HY does more damage to one target.