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Difference SS1/2 - SS3?

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I asked for specifics. All I got from your sources and beagles is general cheese/spam QewQew... it's something I would expect more from some random pug who has no understanding of the game.

    So, I am unconvinced and stand by my assertion that OrgQQ's hate all stems from getting pwned on ground over and over... so much so that they became spacers to hide from us. Then they see us in space and it all comes flooding back like PTSD. That's my working theory, anyway. ;)

    They are saying SS3 is fine that should be enough right. I know that FS space and ground team are kinda the same with a few exception but imo you ground team fight very fair like not using the breen grenades, think the space team could learn from that.

    And I have no problem saying that FS is by far the best ground pvp fleet in STO
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Ya, broken extend thing, so pls tell us what the hell is z talking about.
    As far as I know Zorena is not implying that there is an actual bug.
    Zorena wrote:
    there is something wrong with (extend shields + tactical team) because they have like permanent rsp
    I think in this case "something wrong" refers to a stupid game mechanic, not a bugged one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Well i said allready ss1 and ss2 can be broken to, specced ss2 is broken like ss3 when you suggest that change target etc is broken.

    And even on SS1 sometimes your target switch. The real Question should be, is that target change an mod or an bug.

    To the evasive thing i cant tell anything cause it never affected me right now and i didnt test it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Raphezir wrote: »
    I wanted to know, why you rule givers think SS 1/2 is ok while SS 3 isnt.
    Tide was the only one giving some arguments about that.
    That's not true. Some people have indicated that they think the reason for the exclusion of SS3 (but not SS1/2) is that it benefits a certain playstyle of a certain fleet. [I'm not going to comment on that.]

    If you are only interested in the reasoning of the rulemakers for this rule, a private message to Kharn and Zorena probably would have been a better choice than a new thread on the forums. A public thread was an invitation for speculation about the "true motives" for this rule.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    yep, i talked with zorena about faw +ss3 removed but not ss1 or ss2 or varanus classed as carrier.

    She said: Rules will not be changed, so i said i will not be part of this turney i guess.

    Iam not fan of any ss, or minion spam. But iam fan of hardcounters ^^, so when it is said here that iam fan of ss3 its wrong.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    mancom wrote:
    That's not true. Some people have indicated that they think the reason for the exclusion of SS3 (but not SS1/2) is that it benefits a certain playstyle of a certain fleet. [I'm not going to comment on that.]
    This is what is left, when they dont bring real arguments for this distinction.

    I want to hear the resons for the rule and let them face the whole community, not only some special persons discussing it; but when even those, who set the rules, prefer bashing with the sistas, I lose my hope that there will be any progress in that.
    And even though I like most of them - again: not bringing arguments, lets it look like its just want the want to have.

    Edit: There was a time people believed that only SS 3 is borked. People started to skill it and found out, that the other SS are too. Dont be Catholic. Change the rules.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Elkantar wrote:
    yep, i talked with zorena about faw +ss3 removed but not ss1 or ss2 or varanus classed as carrier.
    She said: Rules will not be changed, so i said i will not be part of this turney i guess.

    Iam not fan of any ss, or minion spam. But iam fan of hardcounters ^^, so when it is said here that iam fan of ss3 its wrong.

    Varanus classed as carrier that the funniest thing I heard in a long time :D

    Not a fan of spam what you doing in FS then ?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Tidemand82 wrote: »
    Guapos. Elkantar and Cutter think Opvp Rules are BS thats the SS3 likers :)

    And I give you credits for being a good space pvp fleet, but the stuff ppl say in opvp about you is not nice, you are known as a cheese fleet. I dont really like that ppl call you that imo you dont really thing you need all that cheese / Spam without you willl stil be a good space pvp fleet

    And Im not saying lol ground anymore you guys rock on ground I have 4 ground toons now and love to team up with you on ground you learned me alot and im glad for that. And I hope I could learn you to be a community respected Space fleet too :)

    Hi Tide, and cheers for the props, happy to team up on ground.

    But I will clarify, nowhere have I said I like SS3, so please don't misrepresent me. I know for a fact none of our FS premades have used SS3 since the last KT tourney ended in march this year, due to claims that SS3 was "broken" - despite seeing other well known fleets using it still.

    However, with thorough testing, I've recently found SS1 and 2 can have the same annoying effects (target switching / evasive misfires) - the extent of this depending on speccing/consoles/aux levels. I find banning SS3 and not other levels inconsistent and hypocritical. If you think scramble is broken, then ban scramble altogether.
    mancom wrote:
    Some people have indicated that they think the reason for the exclusion of SS3 (but not SS1/2) is that it benefits a certain playstyle of a certain fleet. [I'm not going to comment on that.]

    Yes, exactly. Like the OP, I question why SS3 is singled out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I think it's picked on because it's duration is perilously close to it's cool down.

    Even with the target shenanigans that all scramble is capable of 3 is by far the worst for it, and the most guilty for evasive to not work.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    guapos wrote:
    Hi Tide, and cheers for the props, happy to team up on ground.

    But I will clarify, nowhere have I said I like SS3, so please don't misrepresent me. I know for a fact none of our FS premades have used SS3 since the last KT tourney ended in march this year, due to claims that SS3 was "broken" - despite seeing other well known fleets using it still.

    However, with thorough testing, I've recently found SS1 and 2 can have the same annoying effects (target switching / evasive misfires) - the extent of this depending on speccing/consoles/aux levels. I find banning SS3 and not other levels inconsistent and hypocritical. If you think scramble is broken, then ban scramble altogether. .

    Hi np

    You said SS3 is not more OP than SS 1-2 I still thing that is wrong yeah SS2 could be banned from Opvp turney, but if SS is totaly banned it will be a tac team nightmare like it was in TSI turney :(

    Oh and very nice to hear you dont run SS3 :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Raphezir wrote: »
    This is what is left, when they dont bring real arguments for this distinction.

    I want to hear the resons for the rule and let them face the whole community, not only some special persons discussing it; but when even those, who set the rules, prefer bashing with the sistas, I lose my hope that there will be any progress in that.
    And even though I like most of them - again: not bringing arguments, lets it look like its just want the want to have.

    Edit: There was a time people believed that only SS 3 is borked. People started to skill it and found out, that the other SS are too. Dont be Catholic. Change the rules.

    The thing is, if you don't allow any form of scramble at all, then every man child and dog carries tac teams as sci teams become almost useless and the game just becomes TRIBBLE again.

    There are two distinct reasons why SS3 got the chop.

    1. SS3 is/was singled out due to it being broken (although others have already stated, ss1 and ss2 can produce similar results) "more" than the other 2.

    2. It also sits in the cmdr slot, which then leaves your 2 ltc slots for the best two sci heals in the game. If you take SS2 then you are trading one of these epic heals for it, where as there's no such drawback in using SS3.

    Add to that the overwhelming support of almost everyone who entered the fundays and pug days for banning SS3.

    Think of it as a necessary evil, to make sci teams more useful and to stop the stuipdness of tac teams becoming unbearable.

    It does need a change, I've never understood why it was an AOE skill in the first place, it should just of been a single target skill.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Furque i can totally agree with it that SS1 to SS3 should be just to the target, or just an radius of 1km or something around the target.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    mancom wrote:
    "Ultra boring setups with cruisers" is at the core of Zorena's complaints.
    Hehe, that reminds me of inaphase.

    I cannot entirely disagree sometimes. Though I can appreciate the work that goes into being a good healer. (And I get why some people rather want to fly DPS Cruisers.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Tidemand82 wrote: »
    We could ban SS2 in the opvp turney and only allow SS1
    ....

    No FAW No Mines No PENG and No SS3

    O rly? And maybe we all shoud try to build our premades without any version of SS, FAW, MINEs and PENGs. But it's probably an utopia. Oh wait I've forgot that without any form of s**t top fleets would have a big problems with winning. I was rly surprised when I saw that some well known member of "legendary" QEW fleet was using FAW and few days later he said in OPVP that every member of QEW, which will be caught using FAW will be removed from the fleet. And? You guessed it - he's still QEW member. They still use MINEs and SS as everybody else. I thought if he could use FAW I can use PENGs (btw it was only dirty power / weapon I was using).
    Hypocrisy is everywhere. Every fleet use tons of s**t because it's easy and I bet nothing will change.

    Few days before our LF premade were fighting with some fleet premade (sry I forgot their name). These guys were so pure: no FAW, any version of SS, no PENGs and not even one single MINE. One guy from our fleet was using SS 2, other - MINEs. They lost. I felt rly sorry and ashamed. I PMd one of them. He said something like that: "We don't like these powers so we don't use them against other ppl".
    Beagles wrote: »
    We have never used scopion fighters ever, havent used mines for 6 months and right now we have zero scrambles - this is actually a problem and we're trying to find a way to fit it in.

    Hehe, hehe, hehe and....one, more time ---> HEHE.......
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I was rly surprised when I saw that some well known member of "legendary" QEW fleet was using FAW and few days later he said in OPVP that every member of QEW, which will be caught using FAW will be removed from the fleet. And? You guessed it - he's still QEW member.

    I was the one who said that anyone caught would be kicked. Are you seriously trying to suggest that I'm running FAW? Maybe you are just confused?

    Can you tell me:

    Who has been using FAW in QEW?

    Who has been using mines in QEW?

    We used FAW for about 2 hours over 2 days when it first came out to have a look at it and assess it. We have not used mines since that day either. Or are you talking about the mines that the intercetors bring in from the Orion ship?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    It is pretty pathetic how the same few people have baseless claims about our fleet. I read "startrekfan" and knew instantly it would be a post nothing but bashing us.

    We keep losing? Screenshots please, oh wait you have none, because it never happened.

    People in our fleet using mines/FAW/Scorpion fighters? Screenshots please, oh wait you have none, because it never happened.

    I find it ironic that these same people argue that our players have no life for playing the game competitively and actually giving a **** about winning, when they are running around this game trying to spread BS about a fleet.

    Sorry, every one knows we dont cheat or break the OPVP rules. Youre going to have to find another way to get something on us, lying simply wont work. Thanks for the laughs though.

    Good day.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    You Goose - poor memory?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    You Goose - poor memory?

    LOL ok then. Any chance of a screen shot?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Beagles wrote: »
    It is pretty pathetic how the same few people have baseless claims about our fleet. I read "startrekfan" and knew instantly it would be a post nothing but bashing us.

    We keep losing? Screenshots please, oh wait you have none, because it never happened.

    People in our fleet using mines/FAW/Scorpion fighters? Screenshots please, oh wait you have none, because it never happened.

    I find it ironic that these same people argue that our players have no life for playing the game competitively and actually giving a **** about winning, when they are running around this game trying to spread BS about a fleet.

    Sorry, every one knows we dont cheat or break the OPVP rules. Youre going to have to find another way to get something on us, lying simply wont work. Thanks for the laughs though.

    Good day.

    Calm down Beagles pls. I've never said that your fleet is bad because it's simply not truth. QEW is top fleet - no doubt about that. We (our Warriors of Grethor premade) defeated your "FED legends fleet" only one time and any of my former or current fleets didn't win with QEW even 1 single time. I'm not an a*****e and I don't have issue with "big ego" to admit that you have great fleet Beagles. But pls man don't change the reality. Your fleet also used cheese before and everybody here knows that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    well lol all you want furQQ...but i have a screeny where we fought qew and i had 2 scrambles on me...including scramble3...oh yeah and i have another one where one of you guys is using faw3...oh and another one where you can see carrier spam(including mines):cool:...oh and don't forget the match where you guys were using 3 or even more extend shields:cool:
    (but when tsi for example is using more than 2 extend shields ..then it is "spam" and "cheese")

    but whatever we show you...you'll still be QQing about using skills...like startrekfan said...every top fleet is using those so called "cheese" skills...

    so no need to start bashing startrekfan now:mad:

    btw back to topic
    i agree with furQQ there that the range of scramble should be decreased....single target looks like too much of a nerf imo...
    and btw...yeah we all know scramble3 is evil
    but scramble2 is also really really evil if it's fully skilled
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Honestly to tell you the truth this game has become so muddled it is hard to tell who is in what fleet any more. You have guys with 3 toons in Fleet A but also has 2 toons in Fleet B and maybe 1 toon in 3 other fleets. It is that the metagame is so firmly entrenched in science if it was actually balanced we would not need to call out fleets for using XYZ. It is sad that teams actually make premades based around 1 skill, I mean I guess it could be worse tacs could rule.

    Really do we need to have the Qew vs LF vs FS drama. Given I am member of LF/SoS so I maybe biased. To LFs defense we do not have a true premade team. We have 5 people that have 5 builds and do not coordinate their builds so any synergy we have is by chance. FS I know has 5-6 guys that constantly fly with each other with a team build same with QEW. I won't hide I hate FS and will refuse to play against their premade it isn't fun. I will play against a QEW, LORE, TSI, SOB some times, and 7th Core because for the most part they leave the cheese else where or because some of those fleets are PuG premades now.

    I hate losing to beagles or goose or anyone else in QEW but i can admit 95% I deserved they are good players adn they beat me because they are more skilled then. Unlike a lot of people that harbor ill will towards their fleet I never had an issue with anyone from that fleet. I know if I ever left LF/SoS, QEW would one of the first fleets I would go to.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011

    but whatever we show you...you'll still be QQing about using skills...like startrekfan said...every top fleet is using those so called "cheese" skills...

    As far as i can tell, we have been shown nothing. A lot of talk, but no actual proof. If someone in our fleet is using mines or cheese i want to know, because they will be kicked from the fleet. BUT you have nothing on us so stop wasting my time.

    Thanks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I hate losing to beagles or goose or anyone else in QEW but i can admit 95% I deserved they are good players adn they beat me because they are more skilled then.

    Yeah me too but they are skilled like many good players and you are not worse than any player in their fleet. Feature which distinguishes them and TSI, FS or for example some of the german fleets, is exellent team play and communication. This is the huge advantage of small fleets where everybody knows each other well.
    I hope we will find a good way to create good, full specialized teams for pvp in our both fleets.
    Beagles wrote: »
    As far as i can tell, we have been shown nothing. A lot of talk, but no actual proof. If someone in our fleet is using mines or cheese i want to know, because they will be kicked from the fleet. BUT you have nothing on us so stop wasting my time.

    Many ppl knows me and they know that I'm not liar. Few weeks ago your fleet used - like you said -"cheese" as many top and ordinary fleets. I don't judge you guys cause I was using one peng recently and SS many months ago so I'm not clear. It's ok. Let's close this topic Beagles. I'm here from the very begining and I've seen the long way you've had guys - from "turret boats" and leaving pvp matches during fights to QEW and 1st victory with LORE and TSI.
    I don't suffer on ax to grind so I don't collect screenshots because it's just silly but I can if you want "war of screenshots". I leave stress in my work and than I'm logging here to have good fun and relax. I wish you the same Beag.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Damn Jakub you know we dont use SS3 - Faw - Pengs stop saying otherwise you use to be cool beans bro but not anymore, after you joined LF its like you turned 8 facings :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    *Grabs popcorn*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    well lol all you want furQQ...but i have a screeny where we fought qew and i had 2 scrambles on me...including scramble3...oh yeah and i have another one where one of you guys is using faw3...oh and another one where you can see carrier spam(including mines):cool:...oh and don't forget the match where you guys were using 3 or even more extend shields:cool:
    (but when tsi for example is using more than 2 extend shields ..then it is "spam" and "cheese")

    but whatever we show you...you'll still be QQing about using skills...like startrekfan said...every top fleet is using those so called "cheese" skills...

    so no need to start bashing startrekfan now:mad:

    btw back to topic
    i agree with furQQ there that the range of scramble should be decreased....single target looks like too much of a nerf imo...
    and btw...yeah we all know scramble3 is evil
    but scramble2 is also really really evil if it's fully skilled

    Mr Cutter are talking about what happent long ago, you know after the Faw buff that we dont run it, oh not true I tried it for 2 hours in pvp after the so called (non) fixed and then I took it off again.

    Sure I have 1 ship with SS2 max skilled with full aux tell you what ill take if off and replace it with SS1, yes I agree that SS2 can be brutal too so there you go. It could also be banned from Opvp turney I could agree with that too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    One thing i do expect is, if something is broken and u know it, then don't use it.
    TSI is aware of the broken extend thing but u still use it. Why?
    I'll just point out to a post made by one of ur guys:

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3554297&postcount=1



    If Z. knows it im sure u all know it too.

    Lets remember the time when Faw3 was totally op. Do u remember the name of the fleet that used 3 or more cruisers (Excelsiors) with Faw3 and 4x DBB?
    I do and i still remember the argument that was used to justify this lame-setup.
    U guys wanted to show us (the whole STO-Community) how broken faw3 is because cryptic didn't react on ur bug-reports and posts in the bug-report forum.

    I think it would have been a better way to show the community the existence of voldemort by abusing it in the arenas and the c&h's but u can be sure, we would had have equipped shields of only one type to ensure the combatlog isn't showing anything wrong.

    Dude, you take this the wrong way i've been pugging in that forum post and ppl using multiple cruisers with tactical team would have made it painful, but tactical team with extend and you can shoot forever and everytime you switch target someone else was extended.. I didn't make the TSI funday rules and said yeah everyone is gonna run extend3, tactical team in mind, In team setups vs other premade fleets extend and tactical team is alot easier to handle imo.

    You talk when I run faw3 escort with 4dbb, you know what we didn't really know it was op we even had a thread asking if this isn't doing too much dmg I remember that many thought it was quite alright.. I still think it did too much damage but how can you highlight that something is wrong unless you use it..

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=175192&highlight=faw3

    Dont bring definatly exploits into the discussions when we are talking about space powers.. Voldemort and dubble shields is exploit and everyone knows it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Tidemand82 wrote: »
    Damn Jakub you know we dont use SS3 - Faw - Pengs stop saying otherwise you use to be cool beans bro but not anymore, after you joined LF its like you turned 8 facings :)

    Hey LF is not that bad. Like every fleet we may have a few bad apples.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Hey LF is not that bad. Like every fleet we may have a few bad apples.

    I spam singlecannons on my Excelsior and Vor'cha, am I a bad apple?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Zorena wrote:
    Dude, you take this the wrong way i've been pugging in that forum post and ppl using multiple cruisers with tactical team would have made it painful, but tactical team with extend and you can shoot forever and everytime you switch target someone else was extended.. I didn't make the TSI funday rules and said yeah everyone is gonna run extend3, tactical team in mind, In team setups vs other premade fleets extend and tactical team is alot easier to handle imo.

    You talk when I run faw3 escort with 4dbb, you know what we didn't really know it was op we even had a thread asking if this isn't doing too much dmg I remember that many thought it was quite alright.. I still think it did too much damage but how can you highlight that something is wrong unless you use it..

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=175192&highlight=faw3

    Dont bring definatly exploits into the discussions when we are talking about space powers.. Voldemort and dubble shields is exploit and everyone knows it.

    *Grabs popcorn*
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