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Great Job DStahl and Team for all the work you've done with STO!

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    reon wrote: »
    You can still change mathematics. You're teacher could have rounded differently. a 89.4445 will round to a 89.445 which will round to a 89.45 and again to 89.50 to yield 90, an A.

    Great, so you show us using YOUR math the points to counterbalance:

    1 lieutenant level power (top level at tier), 1 extra engineering console (equal to the dedicated engineering ship), an extra .05 impulse modifier (equal to the escort ship, which are supposed to be the "speedy" ones).

    You show us the mathematical points that the Nova has over those advantages of the Rhode Island.

    Lets see your spin math make the Nova look like a worthy choice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I wont call this the end..but I think this is the first true step to a permenant wedge between the Devs and the Playerbase.

    The math is there. If you cant or dont care to dispute it with math of your own (devs and those supporters) then well, youve failed to make a standing argument.

    The math doesn't matter for a "prop" or "costume" that the players are able to "use" in recreating and experiencing an ST "episode" or "movie".

    The math doesn't matter in STO because STO is not a "normal" faction vs faction "MMO" with equal "everything " to fight with. It is not "WoW" or any other carbon copy MMO that pits White vs Black with "balanced" swords.

    The "math" ONLY matters when players take these "props" or "costumes" and attempt to do battle with them in the confines of a PvP match. And quite frankly, if a player can't adapt, improvise and overcome, they should NOT be playing PvP because it is war and nothing in war is ever fair or balanced.

    This is why there is not a lot of "progression" or "raiding" or "end-game" content in STO.

    As long as some players continue to think of STO in the context of "WoW = MMO = progression content = end game raiding" terms, they will not understand STO and will find themselves at odds with the developers and their decisions for their game.

    "Get it?" ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Great, so you show us using YOUR math the points to counterbalance:

    1 lieutenant level power (top level at tier), 1 extra engineering console (equal to the dedicated engineering ship), an extra .05 impulse modifier (equal to the escort ship, which are supposed to be the "speedy" ones).

    You show us the mathematical points that the Nova has over those advantages of the Rhode Island.

    Lets see your spin math make the Nova look like a worthy choice.

    The Nova is FREE on level up, no math needed. 0 < C-Points and Emblems/Energy Credit. That alone makes it a worth choice, esp. since you are going to use the ship for 10 levels. 1 abilities isn't going to change the amount of XP you gain in a mission.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    The math doesn't matter for a "prop" or "costume" that the players are able to "use" in recreating and experiencing an ST "episode" or "movie".

    The math doesn't matter in STO because STO is not a "normal" faction vs faction "MMO" with equal "everything " to fight with. It is not "WoW" or any other carbon copy MMO that pits White vs Black with "balanced" swords.

    The "math" ONLY matters when players take these "props" or "costumes" and attempt to do battle with them in the confines of a PvP match. And quite frankly, if a player can't adapt, improvise and overcome, they should NOT be playing PvP because it is war and nothing in war is ever fair or balanced.

    This is why there is not a lot of "progression" or "raiding" or "end-game" content in STO.

    As long as some players continue to think of STO in the context of "WoW = MMO = progression content = end game raiding" terms, they will not understand STO and will find themselves at odds with the developers and their decisions for their game.

    "Get it?" ;)

    Best summary I've heard for STO in awhile. STO is a casual friendly game and there are no real stats to min/max.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    The math doesn't matter for a "prop" or "costume" that the players are able to "use" in recreating and experiencing an ST "episode" or "movie".

    The math doesn't matter in STO because STO is not a "normal" faction vs faction "MMO" with equal "everything " to fight with. It is not "WoW" or any other carbon copy MMO that pits White vs Black with "balanced" swords.

    That purpose would actually be better served by making the RI a balanced T5 ship or alternate skin since thats where most people seem to play at most, certainly where most of the PVP is. Furthermore, its a subscription multiplayer game, it should be fair for all. Each side doesn't have to compete with the same tools, but it is not unreasonable to expect those tools to be balanced.
    Pyryck wrote:
    The "math" ONLY matters when players take these "props" or "costumes" and attempt to do battle with them in the confines of a PvP match. And quite frankly, if a player can't adapt, improvise and overcome, they should NOT be playing PvP because it is war and nothing in war is ever fair or balanced.

    This is why there is not a lot of "progression" or "raiding" or "end-game" content in STO.

    Except it isn't an actual war, it is a game with the backdrop of a war used to explain why one side is competing with the other. If two players are exactly equal when competing, you have a stalemate, so yes they would need to find a way to adapt and overcome, and they should both have the ability to purue that angle rather than one or the other simply buying the win.
    Pyryck wrote:
    As long as some players continue to think of STO in the context of "WoW = MMO = progression content = end game raiding" terms, they will not understand STO and will find themselves at odds with the developers and their decisions for their game.

    "Get it?" ;)

    STO is not WoW, I get that, in fact I enjoy the game all the more because of that. It is still a game, a subscription game which we pay to play and can reasonably expect to do so equally to every other players.

    I wonder if you "Get it"?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    That purpose would actually be better served by making the RI a balanced T5 ship or alternate skin since thats where most people seem to play at most, certainly where most of the PVP is. Furthermore, its a subscription multiplayer game, it should be fair for all. Each side doesn't have to compete with the same tools, but it is not unreasonable to expect those tools to be balanced.



    Except it isn't an actual war, it is a game with the backdrop of a war used to explain why one side is competing with the other. If two players are exactly equal when competing, you have a stalemate, so yes they would need to find a way to adapt and overcome, and they should both have the ability to purue that angle rather than one or the other simply buying the win.



    STO is not WoW, I get that, in fact I enjoy the game all the more because of that. It is still a game, a subscription game which we pay to play and can reasonably expect to do so equally to every other players.

    I wonder if you "Get it"?

    ^ This 100%
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    The math doesn't matter for a "prop" or "costume" that the players are able to "use" in recreating and experiencing an ST "episode" or "movie".

    The math doesn't matter in STO because STO is not a "normal" faction vs faction "MMO" with equal "everything " to fight with. It is not "WoW" or any other carbon copy MMO that pits White vs Black with "balanced" swords.

    The "math" ONLY matters when players take these "props" or "costumes" and attempt to do battle with them in the confines of a PvP match. And quite frankly, if a player can't adapt, improvise and overcome, they should NOT be playing PvP because it is war and nothing in war is ever fair or balanced.

    This is why there is not a lot of "progression" or "raiding" or "end-game" content in STO.

    As long as some players continue to think of STO in the context of "WoW = MMO = progression content = end game raiding" terms, they will not understand STO and will find themselves at odds with the developers and their decisions for their game.

    "Get it?" ;)

    Best post in a long time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    The math doesn't matter for a "prop" or "costume" that the players are able to "use" in recreating and experiencing an ST "episode" or "movie".

    The math doesn't matter in STO because STO is not a "normal" faction vs faction "MMO" with equal "everything " to fight with. It is not "WoW" or any other carbon copy MMO that pits White vs Black with "balanced" swords.

    The "math" ONLY matters when players take these "props" or "costumes" and attempt to do battle with them in the confines of a PvP match. And quite frankly, if a player can't adapt, improvise and overcome, they should NOT be playing PvP because it is war and nothing in war is ever fair or balanced.

    This is why there is not a lot of "progression" or "raiding" or "end-game" content in STO.

    As long as some players continue to think of STO in the context of "WoW = MMO = progression content = end game raiding" terms, they will not understand STO and will find themselves at odds with the developers and their decisions for their game.

    "Get it?" ;)

    I'm going to depart from my usual role as Dev-booster long enough to point out that there is one area (not yet in the game) where a level playing field is an absolute must.

    That is, the Territory Control idea currently under discussion at the Dev level.

    This can't be a straight numbers game, as the Federation automatically enjoys an overwhelming numerical advantage due to the player base. The playing field will have to be levelled artificially somehow. But it's bound to come down to ship vs. ship sooner or later.

    I'm guessing that Territory Control will not be Endgame Content Only. Which implies that if either side enjoys a tactical advantage that cannot be overcome, the playing field will no longer be level and Territory Control will be a pointless exercise in frustration for one side or the other.

    Ships like the RI could very well upset that kind of balance even more dramatically than it will in PvP today.

    I'm also going to say that the Devs need to get more experience dealing with PvP issues before they even think about Territory Control, because it's going to be even harder to balance correctly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    reon wrote: »
    The Nova is FREE on level up, no math needed. 0 < C-Points and Emblems/Energy Credit. That alone makes it a worth choice, esp. since you are going to use the ship for 10 levels. 1 abilities isn't going to change the amount of XP you gain in a mission.

    :rolleyes:

    So you've got nothing. You can't actually balance their performance at all. Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

    Also, NOT one ability. You forget the console slot. The console. And the impulse modified. So I guess part of your "math" is to ignore the numbers...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    :rolleyes:

    So you've got nothing. You can't actually balance their performance at all. Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

    Also, NOT one ability. You forget the console slot. The console. And the impulse modified. So I guess part of your "math" is to ignore the numbers...

    I didn't prove myself wrong I gave you an answer that you asked for "Lets see your spin math make the Nova look like a worthy choice." The Nova is the worthy choice since

    A) Its free
    B) only using it for 10 levels
    C) It doesn't matter how many Abilities, Consoles etc At the end of the mission, the player will still get award X amount of XP.
    D) min/max in a non-progression game is a waste of time. There is no PvP ranking system so it doesn't matter if you kill 100 ships, or get killed 100 times. It's not WoW, getting the best gear, and trying to be the best just makes the game end that much faster.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I wonder if you "Get it"?

    You are still thinking of STO in the context of "MMO = WoW = Progression Content = End Game Raiding = Balanced PvP = Everything Equal = No buying epic weapons".

    You think of the RI as an Epic +1 Sword of Striking or some such because the use of that "prop" "might" effect your PvP game play. So what? PvP with props really doesn't matter.

    I think of the RI as just another prop with fancy abilities that might be fun to use in a mission / episode / movie. If I want to use that prop for my characters then I can buy it off the C-Store. If I don't want to use that prop then I don't buy it. It's that simple.

    And about the subscription thing - you pay $15 per month to "experience" the ST IP as represented in Cryptic's Theme Park that is STO. You pay money to "watch" or "play" first run episodes or re-runs. That's what your subscription entitles you to. Cryptic's STO gives you the chance to change things a bit in the episodes that you "play" or "watch". They give you more "props" or "costumes" to use. "Get it"? :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    reon wrote: »
    I didn't prove myself wrong I gave you an answer that you asked for "Lets see your spin math make the Nova look like a worthy choice." The Nova is the worthy choice since

    Except not.
    reon wrote: »
    A) Its free

    Doesn't make it worthy, just makes it cheaper. There's no merit there if you have access to both. None.
    reon wrote: »
    B) only using it for 10 levels

    Which again doesn't make the Nova and Rhode Island balanced, mathematically or otherwise.

    And since you find imbalance acceptable, what about when this extends beyond? If you think they won't, if you think they wouldn't believe that acceptable, then you should probably think back to the original stats of the Excelsior.
    reon wrote: »
    C) It doesn't matter how many Abilities, Consoles etc At the end of the mission, the player will still get award X amount of XP.

    Except that competition is an element of the game, so it does matter. And this STILL doesn't balance the two.
    reon wrote: »
    D) min/max in a non-progression game is a waste of time. There is no PvP ranking....

    Funny, because this is actually something Cryptic have said they're working on.

    So basically, like I said, you can't spin the math like you said you could.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    reon wrote: »
    I didn't prove myself wrong I gave you an answer that you asked for "Lets see your spin math make the Nova look like a worthy choice." The Nova is the worthy choice since

    A) Its free.
    True. However this doesn't make it a worthy choice. If you can afford the RI, and thus have the choice, the standard Nova isn't equal to it. If you can't afford the RI, you don't have a choice.
    reon wrote: »
    B) only using it for 10 levels.
    Thats not the poitn, and lets not forget paying for power is likely to extend well beyond T2. If it doesn't then the problem becomes much smaller. It is still a problem and T2 won't go away just because you ignore it. At some point, someone, is going to have an unfair advantage.
    reon wrote: »
    C) It doesn't matter how many Abilities, Consoles etc At the end of the mission, the player will still get award X amount of XP.
    Also not the point. The rpoblem is paying for power spreading throughout the game, affecting competative PVE and PVP. In a fleet action, you are rewarded on performance, o all players won't get the same reward, its nto fair to be able to buy an unfair advantage. PVP may not count for much in the long run, but rewards are still performance based.
    reon wrote: »
    D) min/max in a non-progression game is a waste of time. There is no PvP ranking system so it doesn't matter if you kill 100 ships, or get killed 100 times. It's not WoW, getting the best gear, and trying to be the best just makes the game end that much faster.
    People will still want to play that way, min/max and be the best they can, challenging themselves to get even better. That approach to playing the game is no less valid that yours.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    You are still thinking of STO in the context of "MMO = WoW = Progression Content = End Game Raiding = Balanced PvP = Everything Equal = No buying epic weapons".

    [...]

    I think of the RI as just another prop with fancy abilities that might be fun to use in a mission / episode / movie. If I want to use that prop for my characters then I can buy it off the C-Store. If I don't want to use that prop then I don't buy it. It's that simple.

    [...]

    Except this IS an MMO. It IS a game. It is one with competition that, according the developers, is supposed to balanced (or was prior to the Rhode Island). If that weren't the case they wouldn't be doing things like tweaking pet spam, or FAW damage.

    This isn't "Star Trek: Fancy Dressup". Trying to spin it as such won't work.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    bluegeek wrote: »
    I'm going to depart from my usual role as Dev-booster long enough to point out that there is one area (not yet in the game) where a level playing field is an absolute must.

    That is, the Territory Control idea currently under discussion at the Dev level.

    I'm also going to say that the Devs need to get more experience dealing with PvP issues before they even think about Territory Control, because it's going to be even harder to balance correctly.

    The only way in which any PvP match in STO can EVER be equal and balanced is when the players on all sides are forced to use the exact same "pre-made" characters, gear and ships. That is the only way in which to limit or focus the PvP purely on the players abilities. Anything different can never be balanced and IMHO it's a waste of time effort and funds to try.

    In the meantime, the players can use what props and costumes are available to them to try to enjoy a PvP match.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    And since you find imbalance acceptable, what about when this extends beyond? If you think they won't, if you think they wouldn't believe that acceptable, then you should probably think back to the original stats of the Excelsior.

    Which, by your own admission, they did change. Maybe not when or how players wanted them to, but they did change, right?

    Why is it hard to believe that Cryptic might change the RI stats later on, if and when they come to their own conclusion that they need to?

    If I were going to be concerned, I think I'd be more concerned that RI buyers will pay for the ship they think they're getting and then be subject to a nerf two months later. Cryptic is going to have to go out of their way to convince people that's not a bait and switch. If it leads to a pattern for ships in the C-Store, I'm going to be mighty suspicious myself.

    On the other hand, it's not hard for me to believe that Cryptic needs to see the ship "in the wild" as it were to decide what it's real impact in the game is.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    The only way in which any PvP match in STO can EVER be equal and balanced is when the players on all sides are forced to use the exact same "pre-made" characters, gear and ships. That is the only way in which to limit or focus the PvP purely on the players abilities. Anything different can never be balanced and IMHO it's a waste of time effort and funds to try.

    In the meantime, the players can use what props and costumes are available to them to try to enjoy a PvP match.

    And we can all agree that enforced builds are boring.

    But that doesn't mean that the intention shouldn't be to balance as much as they can.

    EDIT: Oh, and there is one PvP player skill that is being overlooked, and that is the ability to adapt and overcome. That should be the real test of skill, not necessarily who can come up with the latest "killer" PvP setup.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    I think of the RI as just another prop with fancy abilities that might be fun to use in a mission / episode / movie. If I want to use that prop for my characters then I can buy it off the C-Store. If I don't want to use that prop then I don't buy it. It's that simple.

    You would be correct if the RI was just a ship skin. But it's not. It actually has abilities that affect how quickly you defeat (or resist) enemies. Abilities that can be used in direct competition with other players. Before the RI, a ship's advantages could be offset by a good spec and good playing. It's kind of difficult to offset a clearly superior ship (except, of course, to get your own superior ship).


    Z
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Except this IS an MMO. It IS a game. It is one with competition that, according the developers, is supposed to balanced (or was prior to the Rhode Island). If that weren't the case they wouldn't be doing things like tweaking pet spam, or FAW damage.

    This isn't "Star Trek: Fancy Dressup". Trying to spin it as such won't work.

    I'm not trying to spin anything. I am trying to help some fellow posters and readers better comprehend just what it is that they have in "STO".

    I hope for you that in some moment of clarity, or perception of actual reality, that you fully grasp just what a "Theme Park" MMORPG Cryptics STO is. It IS a game. A game in which you get to watch / play / create / re-create episodes or movies with a controllable character and ship. You are given "props" and "costumes" and "sets" based on the ST IP in which to experience the ST IP.

    It is NOT a "WoW" type of MMORPG where your characters whole purpose is to progress in stats, abilities and gear in order to reach end-game epic raiding content and defeat the final boss of the game.

    Once you grasp this concept, then everything that the developers say and do all falls into place allowing you to reach that point of "fun" or "enjoyment" or "entertainment". And then you cease to be all upset with decisions made to add "props" or "costumes" for use in your STO experience. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    You are still thinking of STO in the context of "MMO = WoW = Progression Content = End Game Raiding = Balanced PvP = Everything Equal = No buying epic weapons".


    You think of the RI as an Epic +1 Sword of Striking or some such because the use of that "prop" "might" effect your PvP game play. So what? PvP with props really doesn't matter.

    No I'm not, I am thinking of STO as it is, an MMO. If it is not an MMO, plese demostrate how.

    The RI isn't just a prop, it is an undeniably superior ship to its equivalant. SImple as that.
    Pyryck wrote:
    The only way in which any PvP match in STO can EVER be equal and balanced is when the players on all sides are forced to use the exact same "pre-made" characters, gear and ships. That is the only way in which to limit or focus the PvP purely on the players abilities. Anything different can never be balanced and IMHO it's a waste of time effort and funds to try.

    In the meantime, the players can use what props and costumes are available to them to try to enjoy a PvP match.

    You said yourself, in PVP people should adapt and overcome. Having control over your build is part of that. Taking the time to think about and test your build and continually improve it is part of player effort and skill. That doesn't upset balance, because the better player still wins. If your build doesn't cut it, adapt and overcome, just like you said, don't use cash to make up for your lack of skill/effort, not in a subscription game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    bluegeek wrote: »
    Which, by your own admission, they did change. Maybe not when or how players wanted them to, but they did change, right?

    Yes, they did. Because of pretty much universal forum outrage. This is precisely why the Rhode Island is a problem. Boiling frogs.
    bluegeek wrote: »
    Why is it hard to believe that Cryptic might change the RI stats later on, if and when they come to their own conclusion that they need to?

    Because it IS hard for them to change the stats later or, or at least in so far bringing them into line. They are selling this product. Geko was very clear that the imbalance is specifically meant to be an incentive for people to buy it.

    You even acknowledge this...
    bluegeek wrote: »
    If I were going to be concerned, I think I'd be more concerned that RI buyers will pay for the ship they think they're getting and then be subject to a nerf two months later. Cryptic is going to have to go out of their way to convince people that's not a bait and switch. If it leads to a pattern for ships in the C-Store, I'm going to be mighty suspicious myself.

    So yeah, that's why. This is why people need to speak up now. This is why it would have been even better had more people done so before the ship released. And this is no doubt why Cryptic is starting at Tier 2 this time, as opposed to Tier 5 as they tried last time. Again, they're boiling the frog. And to some degree, it's working.

    With every unbalanced ship that Cryptic puts forward it becomes harder and harder to turn back. The issue compounds. And worse, if people say it's okay now, then the message sent is that it's fine, so why not up the temperature another notch? Then again. Then again. Then those stats we balked at for that T5 Excelsior... maybe to some folks they don't seem too bad anymore?

    And how many people will be left at that point? And how many frogs outside the pot, who haven't been there for the gradual (detrimental) changes, are going to be eager to jump on in to enjoy something that everyone in the pot once thought was insanity?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    No I'm not, I am thinking of STO as it is, an MMO. If it is not an MMO, plese demostrate how.

    The RI isn't just a prop, it is an undeniably superior ship to its equivalant. SImple as that.

    The "definition" of MMO running around in your head is based on an image of a "WoW' type of MMO. That is why you continue to view the RI as a Superior +1 Epic Sword of Sundering to be used in Progressive End-Game raiding to fight the ultimate end-game uber boss.

    The reality of the Cryptics Theme Park MMO that is STO is more like everything else they've done - CoH, CoV and CO. You can control a "toon", give it costumes and props and then throw it into an episode or movie based on the Star Trek IP to defeat the bad guys, save the girl and win the day according to a script.

    Two differently presented different-experience types of MMO. You keep equating STO game-play with WoW game-play. You CAN'T. It's not the same! STO is just you controlling your character or ship in an episode that you "watch". You are the director of the episode and dictate which costumes or props go into the shot. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    STO is just you controlling your character or ship in an episode that you "watch". You are the director of the episode and dictate which costumes or props go into the shot. :)

    So if balance doesn't matter, and they're just props, then why not balance them?

    Or heck, why not swap the Nova and Rhode Island's stats since, hey, they're just props.... right?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    So if balance doesn't matter, and they're just props, then why not balance them?

    Or heck, why not swap the Nova and Rhode Island's stats since, hey, they're just props.... right?

    There you go with that "WoW=MMO" point of reference. ;)

    Why does a special costume or special prop have to be balanced against anything? It's only going to be used in some "director's" (read that as 'player') episode when the director wants to see that special power in action and has the budget to include it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    The only way in which any PvP match in STO can EVER be equal and balanced is when the players on all sides are forced to use the exact same "pre-made" characters, gear and ships. That is the only way in which to limit or focus the PvP purely on the players abilities. Anything different can never be balanced and IMHO it's a waste of time effort and funds to try.

    In the meantime, the players can use what props and costumes are available to them to try to enjoy a PvP match.

    Nonsense:rolleyes:.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    If balance were so unimportant to this game...tractor mines would have remained as when they were originally available. Shields and hull would not have been adjusted. Hargh'Pengs would still be UFP only. Pet spam would not have been reduced. I'd go on but I suspect that it will only end in someone sidetracking this comment looking for a fight and not a debate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    bluegeek wrote: »
    If I were going to be concerned, I think I'd be more concerned that RI buyers will pay for the ship they think they're getting and then be subject to a nerf two months later. Cryptic is going to have to go out of their way to convince people that's not a bait and switch. If it leads to a pattern for ships in the C-Store, I'm going to be mighty suspicious myself.
    So yeah, that's why. This is why people need to speak up now. This is why it would have been even better had more people done so before the ship released. And this is no doubt why Cryptic is starting at Tier 2 this time, as opposed to Tier 5 as they tried last time. Again, they're boiling the frog. And to some degree, it's working.

    With every unbalanced ship that Cryptic puts forward it becomes harder and harder to turn back. The issue compounds. And worse, if people say it's okay now, then the message sent is that it's fine, so why not up the temperature another notch? Then again. Then again. Then those stats we balked at for that T5 Excelsior... maybe to some folks they don't seem too bad anymore?

    And how many people will be left at that point? And how many frogs outside the pot, who haven't been there for the gradual (detrimental) changes, are going to be eager to jump on in to enjoy something that everyone in the pot once thought was insanity?

    No, no, no. Stop it. You're not in this thread because you're against this ship being nerfed down the line. You are not addressing the point I made at all. Make your point, but don't use my post as an excuse to do it.

    The point I was making, which is, whether or not Cryptic will deliberately put out an OP ship, rake in the C-Store cash, and then nerf it to mollify the crowd. I see that as a much bigger concern and a much bigger breach of trust, if it turns out to be true.

    Personally, I don't think so.

    To address your point -- Yes. Yes, I would be concerned if the Rhode Island is the start of a vicious cycle of more and more and more powerful ships just to keep the C-Store money flowing.

    The problem I have is the immediate assumption that this theoretical vicious cycle is the intentional and planned end goal for the introduction of the Rhode Island. One ship does not make a pattern. Two ships don't make a pattern. Really, you need a sample size of four or more to discern a true pattern. How do you know that Cryptic won't go back and rebalance the "free" ships to bring them more in line with the Rhode Island and its' siblings?

    You don't. Nor do I know whether they'll do it or not. It's speculation. Just like the speculation that the RI is the start of a money grab that will destroy the game.

    It's no big secret that levelling through the Tier 2 ships is kind of slow. What if the RI is intended to help make that go faster? Yeah, I know the end goal is for Cryptic to make money. I just happen to think their intent is to make money by improving the game and the Trek experience, not just turning it into a pay-to-win cash cow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    SteveHale wrote: »
    Nonsense:rolleyes:.

    ^ more
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    The "definition" of MMO running around in your head is based on an image of a "WoW' type of MMO. That is why you continue to view the RI as a Superior +1 Epic Sword of Sundering to be used in Progressive End-Game raiding to fight the ultimate end-game uber boss.

    The reality of the Cryptics Theme Park MMO that is STO is more like everything else they've done - CoH, CoV and CO. You can control a "toon", give it costumes and props and then throw it into an episode or movie based on the Star Trek IP to defeat the bad guys, save the girl and win the day according to a script.

    Two differently presented different-experience types of MMO. You keep equating STO game-play with WoW game-play. You CAN'T. It's not the same! STO is just you controlling your character or ship in an episode that you "watch". You are the director of the episode and dictate which costumes or props go into the shot. :)

    Thats not what is in my head and, please, don't pretend you "know" what I'm thinking. You don't. Period. You havn't even bothered to make a educated assumption based on the entirety of my comments or any kind of deep understanding of me you've gleened from extended interation with me.

    I do not think of STO as an MMO in the same terms as WoW. I think of STO in terms of a Massively Multiplayer Online game, which I have paid for to lay, with the expectation that fairness and balance would at least be attempted. If pay for power turns out to be a part of the game, then my expectations prove unfounded in which case I go to billing for a refund.

    As for the Rhode Island, I do not see it as you say. I see it as an ship which is superior to it's free counterpart, in other words, a very minor form of pay for power and a potentially dangerous precedent. It is not a prop, because it is not simply a ship skin, and frankly, to me it looks as close to the Nova as makes no difference so it is not that which concerns me.

    It is arguable that there is a Theme Park element to the game, it may even be a very large part of it but that is not the entirety of the game, there are competative elements too, which reading the Dev tracker is set to be expanded upon. You can ignore that if you like, it won't make it disappear. Conversely, episodic missions aren't necessarily Theme Park, they can be challenging too. Maybe you find it all too easy at Elite or something, more power to you.

    I do not equate STO's gameplay to WoW's in the context of this discussion, you're the one bringing it up out of no where. Additionally, I don't beleive I ever have equated STO's gameplay to WoW's. You don't know nearly enough about me to "know" what I'm thinking so again, don't try to. If you've got something to say about the RI being a more powerful ship than the Nova, or whether pay for power is OK in a subscription MMO then please do make those points and stay away from the inner workings of my mind, of which you know nothing about.
    Pyryck wrote:
    There you go with that "WoW=MMO" point of reference. ;)

    Why does a special costume or special prop have to be balanced against anything? It's only going to be used in some "director's" (read that as 'player') episode when the director wants to see that special power in action and has the budget to include it.

    It's nto just a prop, else it'd be a ship skin. And where the heck do you keep seeing these WoW=MMO points of reference? What has balance got to do with that?

    Further to the point of balance in STO:
    QuanManChu wrote:
    If balance were so unimportant to this game...tractor mines would have remained as when they were originally available. Shields and hull would not have been adjusted. Hargh'Pengs would still be UFP only. Pet spam would not have been reduced. I'd go on but I suspect that it will only end in someone sidetracking this comment looking for a fight and not a debate.

    Just in case you missed it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    bluegeek wrote: »
    No, no, no. Stop it. You're not in this thread because you're against this ship being nerfed down the line. You are not addressing the point I made at all. Make your point, but don't use my post as an excuse to do it.

    Except that your post applies.

    When you eject yourself into space and start posting in a vacuum you can have your way.
    bluegeek wrote: »
    The point I was making, which is, whether or not Cryptic will deliberately put out an OP ship, rake in the C-Store cash, and then nerf it to mollify the crowd. I see that as a much bigger concern and a much bigger breach of trust, if it turns out to be true.

    Which is exactly why they shouldn't release unbalanced ships. Which is exactly why doing so is a problem.
    bluegeek wrote: »
    The problem I have is the immediate assumption that this theoretical vicious cycle is the intentional and planned end goal for the introduction of the Rhode Island. One ship does not make a pattern. Two ships don't make a pattern. Really, you need a sample size of four or more to discern a true pattern.

    Sixteen ships across the tiers balanced as per the Rhode Island is for their tiers.

    This is not theoretical. This what CaptainGeko has flat out told us. And yes, he has also told us that imbalance is intentional and is there to give us "incentive" to buy, to provided added "value" for the expenditure.

    That's not an assumption. That's the plan. They have stated this.

    Beyond this, your suggestion is that it is HARD for them to go back and change ships. That it would be a massive violation of trust. And yet your suggestion is also that we shouldn't object until they've finished and released more, a minimum of four in fact.

    Do you see the rather basic problem there?
    bluegeek wrote: »
    How do you know that Cryptic won't go back and rebalance the "free" ships to bring them more in line with the Rhode Island and its' siblings?

    You said it yourself. Again, you can't make two contradicting arguments and pretend that they each live in a vacuum so they don't contradict each other.
    Pyryck wrote:
    There you go with that "WoW=MMO" point of reference. ;)

    Yes, because WoW invented balance. Games involving competition were never balanced before World of Warcraft. :rolleyes:
    Pyryck wrote:
    Why does a special costume or special prop have to be balanced against anything?

    Because those who CARE about balance REQUIRE that. If they are just props for you then you do not require it either way.
This discussion has been closed.