I had heard a number being thrown around of STO having just under 100k active subs which to me seems a bit low. IMO I really feel Cryptic's choice of going with an "instancing" model rather than the much more common server model has something to do with that. I just think grouping and playing with friends is much easier when you all are playing on the same server. Instancing might IMO seem to reduce overhead and not require as much equipment or bandwidth as the dedicated server model does but I do feel that instancing is one of the aspects that hurts STO. What do you think? How can we as players attract new players to this game?
I had heard a number being thrown around of STO having just under 100k active subs which to me seems a bit low. IMO I really feel Cryptic's choice of going with an "instancing" model rather than the much more common server model has something to do with that. I just think grouping and playing with friends is much easier when you all are playing on the same server. Instancing might IMO seem to reduce overhead and not require as much equipment or bandwidth as the dedicated server model does but I do feel that instancing is one of the aspects that hurts STO. What do you think? How can we as players attract new players to this game?
100k subs (not counting lifers) is 1.5m per month; assume we get roughly 1/3 to 2/3rds that in c-store purchases per month; leaving us with 2 to 2.5m per month. Cryptic is making 45 (47?) percent of Atari's income per last report.
2 to 2.5m million a month isn't peanuts.
As to how to attract new players in mass numbers? You can't. The game has already launched, reviews have already been written (and will never be written again) and the public perception of the game has already been set. We will receive a trickle of new players as they try out the game, usually only enough to offset the trickle of old players quitting the game for whatever reason.
You don't get second chances in the MMO market. You are either smooth \ nearly-flawless at launch ... or you aren't. STO wasn't smooth at launch.
We aren't competing with WoW from years ago. We are competing with WoW as it is now. If you can't deliver better than WoW is now at the time of launching the game then you are going to be stuck with a small but survivable game ... unless you truly suck then you shut down a few months to a year later. STO is still online, isn't losing large numbers of people, and is still being actively developed.
It isn't going to be shut down. It is also not going to attract large numbers of new players. The time for that was at launch, not nearly a year later.
the devs have always said we have over 100k but regardless of if its above or below, the numbers are not huge but that are what cryptic consider decent numbers (basically what they expected and consider a successive) so the game is in decent shape. MMO numbers often get compared to each other but its all relative.
remember we are all on one sever and teaming with friends is much easier than say wow, where you might find yourself on different servers and completely screwed. yes, each wow sever is much more seamless and shows a much better representation of a real world environment but the individual servers do not connect with each other during play.
as for attracting new players, i personally like the instances as they fit my game style (although i know not everybody agrees) except for sector space. that is one area i think they could combine all the instances into one giant zone. (the might have to make bigger for example).
im somewhat split on social zones like ESD because i dont really want to see 200 people surrounding the tailor or the exchange so again i quite like the instanced nature of of it but again if they could make ESD a bigger zone then i would not mind seeing them integrated.
As to how to attract new players in mass numbers? You can't. The game has already launched, reviews have already been written (and will never be written again) and the public perception of the game has already been set. We will receive a trickle of new players as they try out the game, usually only enough to offset the trickle of old players quitting the game for whatever reason.
You don't get second chances in the MMO market. You are either smooth \ nearly-flawless at launch ... or you aren't. STO wasn't smooth at launch.
i disagree. i dont have any figures here but DDO, lord of the rings online, eve online have all had tricky starts or rough periods and become successful or brought in more subs for one reason or another (lots of hard work, free to play hybrid model etc) so its not a case of it you cant, just that its hard and takes time.
also mmo's often get re-reviews by the big magazines, especially during large expansion packs.
as someone who spends far too much time on the forums, the only official world has been from the devs. they have on at least two occasions said we have over 100k. now this could mean 101k or 150k or 190k or whatever but anyone other than a dev is just guessing.
as someone who spends far too much time on the forums, the only official world has been from the devs. they have on at least two occasions said we have over 100k. now this could mean 101k or 150k or 190k or whatever but anyone other than a dev is just guessing.
They could say it so people dont complain about it anymore.
Never seen any official document showing how many active subs STO has (provided by Cryptic), and we never will see them thus we have to simply believe that the developers are telling us the truth.
100k subs (not counting lifers) is 1.5m per month; assume we get roughly 1/3 to 2/3rds that in c-store purchases per month; leaving us with 2 to 2.5m per month. Cryptic is making 45 (47?) percent of Atari's income per last report.
2 to 2.5m million a month isn't peanuts.
As to how to attract new players in mass numbers? You can't. The game has already launched, reviews have already been written (and will never be written again) and the public perception of the game has already been set. We will receive a trickle of new players as they try out the game, usually only enough to offset the trickle of old players quitting the game for whatever reason.
You don't get second chances in the MMO market. You are either smooth \ nearly-flawless at launch ... or you aren't. STO wasn't smooth at launch.
We aren't competing with WoW from years ago. We are competing with WoW as it is now. If you can't deliver better than WoW is now at the time of launching the game then you are going to be stuck with a small but survivable game ... unless you truly suck then you shut down a few months to a year later. STO is still online, isn't losing large numbers of people, and is still being actively developed.
It isn't going to be shut down. It is also not going to attract large numbers of new players. The time for that was at launch, not nearly a year later.
Great post, but I'd like to take exception with one small point......
I'd argue that STO isn't competing with WoW at all, or at the very least, isn't competing with it to a large extent. If the bulk of WoW players were also Star Trek fans, old school fans, not last year's Diet Trek, there would be competition. But the bulk of those folks are more interested in D&Dish type games, That's why they play WoW. What WoW competes with are the Lord of the Rings MMOs and, of course, the actual D&D online game.
STO competes with the Star Wars MMOs, and probably Starcraft. If there really is a Battlestar Galactica MMO on the horizon, it'll compete with that, too.
I play WoW. With a couple of exceptions, none of the folks I know from that game are interested in Trek, and the two that are have a passing interest in it. Nor do they have an interet in the Star Wars games.
The one place where you will see competition between games of different interests will be among people who do play multiple games, and decide they have to give up something. In that case, their decision will be based on time invested per game, and interest in the subject matter. Irony of Ironies (to quote that great leader, Rom) I may be in that group. I plan to play that upcoming superhero game which will compete with Champions. I know I don't have the time to play three different MMOs, no am I confidant I can afford all three (espescially if I'm playing one or two very seldom). So we'll see what we'll see.
For what it's worth, MMOData puts STO at under 60k after a drop off in subs (http://www.mmodata.net/)
....but 1) These data are only "B" reliability, meaning that this is in part an estimate (not an exact figure)
2) not sure why this matters too much (though I wouldn't mind shorter PvP queues....)
For what it's worth, MMOData puts STO at under 60k after a drop off in subs (http://www.mmodata.net/)
....but 1) These data are only "B" reliability, meaning that this is in part an estimate (not an exact figure)
2) not sure why this matters too much (though I wouldn't mind shorter PvP queues....)
MMOData is no better at predicting number than the armchair analysts in this thread.
A new Trek movie could give people the Trek bug. A renewed interest in Trek could lead gamers to STO. If I was cryptic I would want to be prepared as best as possible for such a possibility. Just a thought.
Also since I am a casual player I feel this game already has more content that what I know what to do with.
But out of curiosity why do you want 1 mill players?
One of my fears is that we will become popular and have more players than what the server can handle.
Also with the coming foundry people are going to create millions of adventures overtime. I wander how much data can the server handle before it is Lag to no end and/or start to crush on a regular bases
As it is, sometime I do feel like we are getting a little crowded out in sector space.
The last official number was somewhere around more than 100k or something back in.. july I wanna say. Not from a developer but from the man Jack Emmert himself. So I'd take his word over a dev/website that wouldn't have complete access to that info. But regardless,
You don't get second chances in the MMO market. You are either smooth \ nearly-flawless at launch ... or you aren't. STO wasn't smooth at launch.
NO MMO in history had a smooth / nearly-flawless launch. (well LOTRO semi did) All major MMO's have a nightmare of a launch then smooth out after a year or so. Tis the way of MMO's to expect a perfect launch is silly at least.
One of my fears is that we will become popular and have more players than what the server can handle.
Also with the coming foundry people are going to create millions of adventures overtime. I wander how much data can the server handle before it is Lag to no end and/or start to crush on a regular bases
Thats when they upgrade the hardware and they already have a log in queue system in place in the off chance the servers become flooded.
A new Trek movie could give people the Trek bug. A renewed interest in Trek could lead gamers to STO. If I was cryptic I would want to be prepared as best as possible for such a possibility. Just a thought.
Another movie would have marginal impact at best. STO is not licensed for the new JJ movies. So anything shown on screen there cant be replicated in the game.
So any folks coming here new to Trek and jazzed up by a new JJ movie. Will most likely be disappointed or expecting something else.
And folks already jazzed up by trek to know enough about the differences between normal trek and JJ trek...are mostly likely already here, or already tried it and left.
For what it's worth, MMOData puts STO at under 60k after a drop off in subs (http://www.mmodata.net/)
....but 1) These data are only "B" reliability, meaning that this is in part an estimate (not an exact figure)
2) not sure why this matters too much (though I wouldn't mind shorter PvP queues....)
MMOData is a proven fraud. They were called on it several times. They literally make stuff up.
They had a target of 100k subs. They said in an interview they were well over that but I'm pretty sure that was in February or March. We know we lost players since then we don't how many we new players we picked up or how many quit.
The way to get subscribers is pretty simple. Make a fun game people want to play. STO's big problem right now is lack of content. Which is going to change. They need to add some challenging end game for both PVE and PVP.
They have to make a game that people who like Star Trek want to play and people who care nothing for Star Trek want to play. What I mean by that is we will have to pick up gamers who play because it's fun.
They had a target of 100k subs. They said in an interview they were well over that but I'm pretty sure that was in February or March. We know we lost players since then we don't how many we new players we picked up or how many quit.
The way to get subscribers is pretty simple. Make a fun game people want to play. STO's big problem right now is lack of content. Which is going to change. They need to add some challenging end game for both PVE and PVP.
They have to make a game that people who like Star Trek want to play and people who care nothing for Star Trek want to play. What I mean by that is we will have to pick up gamers who play because it's fun.
I hope the devs are able to switch gears rather quickly from these Featured Series (which are great and all) to something with a bit more meat and replayability: retooling exploration, adding opt-in territory control, more PvP, etc.
For what it's worth, MMOData puts STO at under 60k after a drop off in subs (http://www.mmodata.net/)
....but 1) These data are only "B" reliability, meaning that this is in part an estimate (not an exact figure)
2) not sure why this matters too much (though I wouldn't mind shorter PvP queues....)
Did you really look at the graph, it hasn't been updated in at least 7 months....the only way they could have accurate numbers is if STO billing gave them to them and that is not happening.
Secondly why do numbers matter, if content is being updated and you are still having fun then you continue to play otherwise you quit....
I hope the devs are able to switch gears rather quickly from these Featured Series (which are great and all) to something with a bit more meat and replayability: retooling exploration, adding opt-in territory control, more PvP, etc.
Totally agree, there are plenty out there like you who will make great story content. They need to focus on what we can't make. We can't make fleet actions, STF's and PVP mini games. What we talked about before they are addressing the problems with gear. You need something to do with the gear.
To me the weeklies weren't very much content for the time it took to get them. They didn't really work for the Klingon side of the story. They did look great however the art work was beautiful. They just don't offer that much repayable content or group able content.
What I think we need are open PVP systems to take and control. More fleet actions where you can group with others. You don't have to waste any time forming groups and can leave when you want too. This type of game play is both solo and group friendly.
The way to get subscribers is pretty simple. Make a fun game people want to play. STO's big problem right now is lack of content. Which is going to change. They need to add some challenging end game for both PVE and PVP.
While this is true, it's not the whole truth.
The game lacks much more than just content.
There is no long-term goals for the player to acheive.
Content or no-content, captains without ambitions won't be captains for long.
Once you've got a VA on either faction entirely equipped with purples, what's left to work towards? Where will I be making any progress/improvements to my character? I even have all the bonus-providing/title-giving accolades.
I want to keep playing but feel bored the moment I log on, and I don't think content alone will fix it.
While this is true, it's not the whole truth.
The game lacks much more than just content.
There is no long-term goals for the player to acheive.
Content or no-content, captains without ambitions won't be captains for long.
Once you've got a VA on either faction entirely equipped with purples, what's left to work towards? Where will I be making any progress/improvements to my character? I even have all the bonus-providing/title-giving accolades.
I want to keep playing but feel bored the moment I log on, and I don't think content alone will fix it.
I know what you mean. That's why is was talking about fun and challenging you have to want to be able to repeat the game play because it's fun. \
That where things like take hold systems comes in because it's not scripted but you're doing the same thing. It doesn't get as stale as fast because your opponents and team mates don't react the same way each time.
Did you really look at the graph, it hasn't been updated in at least 7 months....the only way they could have accurate numbers is if STO billing gave them to them and that is not happening.
Secondly why do numbers matter, if content is being updated and you are still having fun then you continue to play otherwise you quit....
I completely agree, which is what I said in my original post. I don't put a lot of stock in these data, just throwing one more thing into the mix. But, as we've all already pointed out, it really doesn't make that much difference as long as there are enough subs to keep the servers running (and devs developing).
I think there is some low hanging fruit yet to be picked when it comes to potential players. I speak of the convention folks in particular. STO made no effort to market even the biggest, best attended Star Trek cons. I heard an interview with marketing where they said it was too expensive to put up a booth. Which means they just wrote those folks off and have stuck to an internet-only marketing system. While I'd guess most Trek fans are internet savvy that doesn't mean they play MMOs as a rule or look up online games for Trek. I feel there are tons of Trek fans that haven't been marketed to as of yet. That's not to say they would all play STO, but if you want to increase subscriber numbers this long after launch you have to reach people who aren't already online gamers who are also Trek fans.
I do believe another JJ movie would open another opportunity even though strictly speaking it's a different license. Anything that puts Trek in the minds of the masses is an opportunity for marketing. However, the current marketing department decided a long time ago that STO was a niche game for internet savvy MMO players who are Trek fans, and therefore insured that's all STO would be. I'd have so fired the marketing people who let the company down time and again by now, but for all I know nobody at Cryptic has any say over marketing. I think it's all Atari and dstahl can only watch what they do.
Expansions are a great opportunity for mmos to get a second review.
but during the time you spend working on that expansion, from concept to product you need to be also tweaking and debugging the existing game.
So when the time for that second review comes around you've got not only an injection of fresh content for current players (making them a happy content community for new players to enter *wink*), you've also got a smooth flawless game powering it for the reviewers to praise.
I'd like to think Cryptic is thinking in that direction and Atari will help them go there.
Comments
the problem is less about instancing and more about contenting
100k subs (not counting lifers) is 1.5m per month; assume we get roughly 1/3 to 2/3rds that in c-store purchases per month; leaving us with 2 to 2.5m per month. Cryptic is making 45 (47?) percent of Atari's income per last report.
2 to 2.5m million a month isn't peanuts.
As to how to attract new players in mass numbers? You can't. The game has already launched, reviews have already been written (and will never be written again) and the public perception of the game has already been set. We will receive a trickle of new players as they try out the game, usually only enough to offset the trickle of old players quitting the game for whatever reason.
You don't get second chances in the MMO market. You are either smooth \ nearly-flawless at launch ... or you aren't. STO wasn't smooth at launch.
We aren't competing with WoW from years ago. We are competing with WoW as it is now. If you can't deliver better than WoW is now at the time of launching the game then you are going to be stuck with a small but survivable game ... unless you truly suck then you shut down a few months to a year later. STO is still online, isn't losing large numbers of people, and is still being actively developed.
It isn't going to be shut down. It is also not going to attract large numbers of new players. The time for that was at launch, not nearly a year later.
remember we are all on one sever and teaming with friends is much easier than say wow, where you might find yourself on different servers and completely screwed. yes, each wow sever is much more seamless and shows a much better representation of a real world environment but the individual servers do not connect with each other during play.
as for attracting new players, i personally like the instances as they fit my game style (although i know not everybody agrees) except for sector space. that is one area i think they could combine all the instances into one giant zone. (the might have to make bigger for example).
im somewhat split on social zones like ESD because i dont really want to see 200 people surrounding the tailor or the exchange so again i quite like the instanced nature of of it but again if they could make ESD a bigger zone then i would not mind seeing them integrated.
i disagree. i dont have any figures here but DDO, lord of the rings online, eve online have all had tricky starts or rough periods and become successful or brought in more subs for one reason or another (lots of hard work, free to play hybrid model etc) so its not a case of it you cant, just that its hard and takes time.
also mmo's often get re-reviews by the big magazines, especially during large expansion packs.
/quit
The problem is even more about creating discontent.
See in it on the forums a few times...
(something different but oh well; clicky)
as someone who spends far too much time on the forums, the only official world has been from the devs. they have on at least two occasions said we have over 100k. now this could mean 101k or 150k or 190k or whatever but anyone other than a dev is just guessing.
STO is a niche game. It isn't for everyone. It has enough subscribers. It isn't made to have many subscribers, yet.
They could say it so people dont complain about it anymore.
Never seen any official document showing how many active subs STO has (provided by Cryptic), and we never will see them
Great post, but I'd like to take exception with one small point......
I'd argue that STO isn't competing with WoW at all, or at the very least, isn't competing with it to a large extent. If the bulk of WoW players were also Star Trek fans, old school fans, not last year's Diet Trek, there would be competition. But the bulk of those folks are more interested in D&Dish type games, That's why they play WoW. What WoW competes with are the Lord of the Rings MMOs and, of course, the actual D&D online game.
STO competes with the Star Wars MMOs, and probably Starcraft. If there really is a Battlestar Galactica MMO on the horizon, it'll compete with that, too.
I play WoW. With a couple of exceptions, none of the folks I know from that game are interested in Trek, and the two that are have a passing interest in it. Nor do they have an interet in the Star Wars games.
The one place where you will see competition between games of different interests will be among people who do play multiple games, and decide they have to give up something. In that case, their decision will be based on time invested per game, and interest in the subject matter. Irony of Ironies (to quote that great leader, Rom) I may be in that group. I plan to play that upcoming superhero game which will compete with Champions. I know I don't have the time to play three different MMOs, no am I confidant I can afford all three (espescially if I'm playing one or two very seldom). So we'll see what we'll see.
....but 1) These data are only "B" reliability, meaning that this is in part an estimate (not an exact figure)
2) not sure why this matters too much (though I wouldn't mind shorter PvP queues....)
MMOData is no better at predicting number than the armchair analysts in this thread.
Also since I am a casual player I feel this game already has more content that what I know what to do with.
But out of curiosity why do you want 1 mill players?
One of my fears is that we will become popular and have more players than what the server can handle.
Also with the coming foundry people are going to create millions of adventures overtime. I wander how much data can the server handle before it is Lag to no end and/or start to crush on a regular bases
As it is, sometime I do feel like we are getting a little crowded out in sector space.
Just my opinion.
NO MMO in history had a smooth / nearly-flawless launch. (well LOTRO semi did) All major MMO's have a nightmare of a launch then smooth out after a year or so. Tis the way of MMO's
Thats when they upgrade the hardware and they already have a log in queue system in place in the off chance the servers become flooded.
Another movie would have marginal impact at best. STO is not licensed for the new JJ movies. So anything shown on screen there cant be replicated in the game.
So any folks coming here new to Trek and jazzed up by a new JJ movie. Will most likely be disappointed or expecting something else.
And folks already jazzed up by trek to know enough about the differences between normal trek and JJ trek...are mostly likely already here, or already tried it and left.
MMOData is a proven fraud. They were called on it several times. They literally make stuff up.
The way to get subscribers is pretty simple. Make a fun game people want to play. STO's big problem right now is lack of content. Which is going to change. They need to add some challenging end game for both PVE and PVP.
They have to make a game that people who like Star Trek want to play and people who care nothing for Star Trek want to play. What I mean by that is we will have to pick up gamers who play because it's fun.
Did you really look at the graph, it hasn't been updated in at least 7 months....the only way they could have accurate numbers is if STO billing gave them to them and that is not happening.
Secondly why do numbers matter, if content is being updated and you are still having fun then you continue to play otherwise you quit....
Totally agree, there are plenty out there like you who will make great story content. They need to focus on what we can't make. We can't make fleet actions, STF's and PVP mini games. What we talked about before they are addressing the problems with gear. You need something to do with the gear.
To me the weeklies weren't very much content for the time it took to get them. They didn't really work for the Klingon side of the story. They did look great however the art work was beautiful. They just don't offer that much repayable content or group able content.
What I think we need are open PVP systems to take and control. More fleet actions where you can group with others. You don't have to waste any time forming groups and can leave when you want too. This type of game play is both solo and group friendly.
While this is true, it's not the whole truth.
The game lacks much more than just content.
There is no long-term goals for the player to acheive.
Content or no-content, captains without ambitions won't be captains for long.
Once you've got a VA on either faction entirely equipped with purples, what's left to work towards? Where will I be making any progress/improvements to my character? I even have all the bonus-providing/title-giving accolades.
I want to keep playing but feel bored the moment I log on, and I don't think content alone will fix it.
I know what you mean. That's why is was talking about fun and challenging you have to want to be able to repeat the game play because it's fun. \
That where things like take hold systems comes in because it's not scripted but you're doing the same thing. It doesn't get as stale as fast because your opponents and team mates don't react the same way each time.
Where as a weekly quest is the same every time.
I completely agree, which is what I said in my original post. I don't put a lot of stock in these data, just throwing one more thing into the mix. But, as we've all already pointed out, it really doesn't make that much difference as long as there are enough subs to keep the servers running (and devs developing).
I do believe another JJ movie would open another opportunity even though strictly speaking it's a different license. Anything that puts Trek in the minds of the masses is an opportunity for marketing. However, the current marketing department decided a long time ago that STO was a niche game for internet savvy MMO players who are Trek fans, and therefore insured that's all STO would be. I'd have so fired the marketing people who let the company down time and again by now, but for all I know nobody at Cryptic has any say over marketing. I think it's all Atari and dstahl can only watch what they do.
but during the time you spend working on that expansion, from concept to product you need to be also tweaking and debugging the existing game.
So when the time for that second review comes around you've got not only an injection of fresh content for current players (making them a happy content community for new players to enter *wink*), you've also got a smooth flawless game powering it for the reviewers to praise.
I'd like to think Cryptic is thinking in that direction and Atari will help them go there.
If you build it they will come.
/thread lol