Now that the foundry is a reality, i wonder if there is a strong desire from the community to flesh out the second half of the game, namely the lacluster Pvp.
The foundry is a fantastic self perpetuating content juggernaut, anyone that played neverwinter nights can confirm that a passionate community combined with authoring tools is a solid home run for everyone. While I can't personally say enough good things about what is transpiring on tribble....I can't help but feel that the overall puzzle is incomplete.
creating a dynamic, fully realized territory control system would benefit everyone as well if properly done. By creating a second type of user generated content in the form of ongoing conquest wars and politics.
my question is to the very creative community members, what type f system would you create? how could you make it apply to pve and pvp players, and lower level characters?
how would it intigrate into the existing game and also take into account potential future factions?
and lastly what would be the balance issues and soloutions?
If anyone remembers the old FASA book entitled The Triangle I think that would be an ideal starting point for an open PvP zone. The Triangle was basically a section of space at the meeting points of the Fed/Kling, Fed/Rom, and Klink/Rom neutral zones. It was full of pirates, criminals, and the 3 Factions constantly juggling for position in the area. It would be perfect for system capture and would be easily expandable to include the Rom Faction next year.
Now having said that I should say I'm not a big proponent of time being spent on open pvp zones for the game yet. I really feel that Cryptic needs to focus on its entire end-game system as the next major system change for the game. PvP is still quite a minority-played aspect of STO and, while I do think it's important to the game, I think when people are leaving STO because of lack of end-game content not from lack of PvP content. PvP is still a minority play-type in this game.
I honestly feel the next stage should be at the very least a good stab at a revamp of the exploration sectors over anything else. This facet of the game will unlock a style of gameplay that is largely missing in sto. That said:
I read a thread kinda on the same lines as this and someone mentioned that it'd be cool to model something after wintergrasp in WoW. I still think that's a great idea. But make it a space battle. An area that would be open pvp always but the main battle would happen every hour or so. Whoever controlled this area would have access to shops and a new short but tough STF. Purhaps there is a worm hole and the STF is through that. One big enemy fight like the crystalline entity fight but set up for 5(regular,elite)/10 man teams(regular,elite). The main battle would be to fight for control of a small space station and its ship yards. Whoever controls the ship yards has more NPC back up. A bit lose but you get the idea.
Also I am a bug supporter of allowing players to flag themselves for open pvp anywhere and opening up the maps to everyone. That way those that want it can and those don't do not have to worry.
I also would love to be able to raid ESD and Qo'nos. I am not big on PvP but I played on a PvP sever in wow and the danger factor to me gave a thrill that was worth the occasional ganking.
Edit: although in the case of the open pvp map I mention above would auto flag you for pvp once you enter.
Territory Control pvp has issues with instances I feel, if it's direct pvp control. If it's simply influence control, that could potentially pan out, but even then it's very awkward because you either have a situation where each instance isn't in 'sync' with the others, or a case where you're in an instance of stuff changes without you being even aware of what's going on in the other instances.
Collapsing down to monolithic instancing would be a neat goal, but that's a massive structure change for the game, and I suspect not really one that's likely to happen.
I did suggest a Wintergrasp esque solution for population imbalances before, however, it would still be constrained by world instancing, which is a mess. And it'd be incredibly difficult to make it look different than the other pvp games/'battlegrounds' that go on currently. However, the current Wintergrasp/Tol Barad method may actually work for it by simply placing a hard-cap on how many people can participate in each cycle, so you only have one instance. But that has it's own baggage of player frustration. [edit / add] And unfortunately, it would still be just a 'special battleground'.
And unfortunately, it would still be just a 'special battleground'.
^ This.
One working model:
- players fly around open-pvp sector space, and may choose to attack each other, or attack enemy NPC freighter convoys/bases within that zone.
- when someone attacks, a battle forms, and players may travel to it, and join (with the same rules as a standard PvP instance - population must be roughly equal). The rules of the battle depend upon how it started.
- winning that battle does something to shift control of the PvP zone.
(you could let fleets claim bases etc)
But I suspect many players want something that is not technically possible with the cryptic engine (e.g. an instance with far more players in it than the engine supports), and they will throw a temper tantrum when something appears that doesn't fit that impractical vision.
EDIT: whatever the outcome, PvP should not affect PvE in any material manner and there would be a revolt if you tried to do that. This is just a PvP system for PvP players.
If anyone remembers the old FASA book entitled The Triangle I think that would be an ideal starting point for an open PvP zone. The Triangle was basically a section of space at the meeting points of the Fed/Kling, Fed/Rom, and Klink/Rom neutral zones.
Not to mention it was also where the major part of the Orion Colonies were located at. I've gone into a bit of detail regarding the Triangle in this section of a little Orion guide (scroll down until you see the "Orion Space and Internal Politics" header, roughly in the middle of the post).
And yeah, every time I think of PvP my thoughts trail back towards the Triangle as well. Considering that the Romulans are very likely to be the next playable faction, this area would be the perfect meeting ground for characters of all sides to "duke it out".
Of course you could forego the entire act of changing the area from PvE into PvP space and instead turn the entire Triangle sector into a PvP zone. PvPvE would still happen, though, with the ultimate purpose of weakening a base's defense and so, at some point, permit an invasion. This could be done by things such as raiding freighter convoys or outlying outposts, all the while threatened by enemy players joining in to defend their faction's assets.
As already pointed out, PvP battles could be open for anyone to join, and use a balancing system that would allow neither side to have more than +1 player in the zone. So if someone from Starfleet got jumped by three Birds-of-Prey prowling the neutral zone, the match would be a 1v2, and the third BoP could only join in once the Starfleet player received backup.
This could even allow APB-style gameplay of PvPvE missions where players from one faction can attack PvE assets of the enemy, in turn generating an automated "distress call" mission for nearby players of the assaulted faction.
I still think that's a great idea. But make it a space battle. An area that would be open pvp always but the main battle would happen every hour or so. Whoever controlled this area would have access to shops and a new short but tough STF.
I'd prefer that there were no timers involved.
Say something like:
A PvP Sector with 4 Strategic Systems. Other Systems can be added for Exploration.
Each Strategic System having 4 Stations. Widely dispersed in orbits, in Asteroid Fields or in the Open.
Each Station having 4 Defense Beacons, which prevent beaming onto the Station.
The Sector is initially hostile to ALL Factions, one time only or until reset by the Staff for some reason.
PvP Encounters can occur in Sector Space.
To take a Station the 4 Beacons must be disabled. Then the Station can be boarded by both Factions.
Any attack on the Beacons Broadcasts a Distress Call to everyone in the Sector.
The aggressors would have to make their way to a Control Room on the Station.
From the Control Room the Beacons can be set to allow their Faction to beam onto the Station while preventing others from doing so, Capturing the Station.
Capturing a Station grants that Faction Access to the Station's Services and Broadcasts their claim to every Ship in the Sector. That Factions NPC's will patrol the interior of that Station.
Capturing 4 Stations in a System capture the System and Broadcasts their claim to every Ship in the Sector and to every Factions Home Base. That Factions NPC's ships will patrol that System.
Capturing 4 Systems captures the Sector and Broadcasts their claim to every Ship in Space and to every Factions Home Base. That Factions NPC's ships will patrol that Sector and all of its Systems.
The Faction controlling the Sector gets access a Sensor Bonus.
Players getting destroyed/disabled anywhere in this Sector will be respawned at their Faction's Home Planet.
A PvP Sector with 4 Strategic Systems. Other Systems can be added for Exploration.
Each Strategic System having 4 Stations. Widely dispersed in orbits, in Asteroid Fields or in the Open.
Each Station having 4 Defense Beacons, which prevent beaming onto the Station.
The Sector is initially hostile to ALL Factions, one time only or until reset by the Staff for some reason.
PvP Encounters can occur in Sector Space.
To take a Station the 4 Beacons must be disabled. Then the Station can be boarded by both Factions.
Any attack on the Beacons Broadcasts a Distress Call to everyone in the Sector.
The aggressors would have to make their way to a Control Room on the Station.
From the Control Room the Beacons can be set to allow their Faction to beam onto the Station while preventing others from doing so, Capturing the Station.
Capturing a Station grants that Faction Access to the Station's Services and Broadcasts their claim to every Ship in the Sector. That Factions NPC's will patrol the interior of that Station.
Capturing 4 Stations in a System capture the System and Broadcasts their claim to every Ship in the Sector and to every Factions Home Base. That Factions NPC's ships will patrol that System.
Capturing 4 Systems captures the Sector and Broadcasts their claim to every Ship in Space and to every Factions Home Base. That Factions NPC's ships will patrol that Sector and all of its Systems.
The Faction controlling the Sector gets access a Sensor Bonus.
Players getting destroyed/disabled anywhere in this Sector will be respawned at their Faction's Home Planet.
I'd play this. Sounds like a lot of fun. Only problem I'd have is spawning at home planet. That'd be super annoying.
I'd play this. Sounds like a lot of fun. Only problem I'd have is spawning at home planet. That'd be super annoying.
Well it's about territory control. There has to be some penalty for becoming disabled. I could compromise to respawning outside of the Sector. In the adjacent Sector closest to Hone Planet.
Edit to add:
Make it open to ALL ranks.
Set the Difficulty so that it would be difficult but not impossible for a VA to do it solo, so long as no one responds to the distress broadcasts.
Well it's about territory control. There has to be some penalty for becoming disabled. I could compromise to respawning outside of the Sector. In the adjacent Sector closest to Home Planet.
Hehe true. Kk let's compromise. To bad we can't create these in the foundry. But maybe pvp maps are in the foundry's future. Still dig your idea.
They need to make a new sector connected to Borg space both factions can get too. There would be four systems to take in the sector so that the faction with the most players could just set on one node and keep control. If one side is outnumbered they could go to another system and try and take it. I think that I heard that fifty players can get in an instance in STO. There would be cap at twenty five for each faction.
The symbol of the faction that controlled the system either Borg, Federation or Klingon. Would appear on the sector space map. There would be two space systems to control and two ground systems. Controlling all four system would grant bonuses with special vendors and discounts and a special STF Pikoy mentioned. Where a player would get items only obtainable from that STF so players will want to run it. So they will want to control the sector.
Like the author in the thread a couple of days ago suggested there would be NPC's involved. Like every couple of hours the Borg would attack and retake the nodes if they weren't defended. They would defeat the controlling factions NPC's. There would need to be about five players of that faction to fend of the Borg. This could help with balance and give out number players a chance to take a node but they risk having to fight the Borg and the other faction.
After a faction takes control of a system NPC's from that faction will warp in or beam down. The system couldn't be retaken for like five minutes after it's captured. So each side could regroup and call in reinforcements from their faction. Each faction would come in behind NPC's that couldn't be destroyed to prevent spawn camping.
Each side would get the special vendors if they control two systems but would have to control all to get access to the STF.
Meh. Not the Borg again. I actually like them as an endgame faction, but PvP should focus on the big stellar empires duking it out. Plus, the Federation and the Klingon Empire have an armistice going on in Omega Leonis, so PvP should be a no-go storywise.
In general, I like the idea of PvPvE, but I would prefer using NPCs of the opposing faction that will move to establish a "balance of powers" in the contested sector.
A neutral faction would be an idea, too, of course. How about, if - bringing this thing back into the Triangle Sector - instead of Borg you would be taking a bunch of neutral pirates that would attack any faction and generally wreak havoc on unprotected convoys and even outposts?
Also, should there be "risk missions" that may not always require combat? I could imagine a daily mission where you have to escort a freighter convoy that can come under attack by an enemy player at any moment. If no other player shows up, you have a couple uneventful minutes where you just hold position next to the freighter as he casually flies to his next navpoint (small reward for "being there"). If another player does show up you have to defend the freighter from being boarded (big reward if you win, small reward for "being there" even if you loose).
I appreciate all the Ideas, I'll put my two cents in...
I picture a large open sector, roughly the size of all the current sectors combined.
this massive area would be divided into systems, and the systems would be fairly empty, basic templates containing zero pve content.
each system would contain either a planet, a nebula, asteroid belt...roughly one major feature per system.
A fleet can claim ownership of a system, and based on the object in that system would recieve a trickle of resources... say a nebula provides alien artifacts, or an asteroid system provides ore.
when the fleet reaches a certain amount of resources they can begin construction of a starbase, and subsequently can travel to that base from anywhere ala transwarp.
the base would provide crafting areas that would require system control components that allowed players to build defenses, ship parts and other materials.
some systems would be PVE and others would be PVP, the pvp systems and pve systems would both contain components, so players would barter with each other, fleets combining to conquer riskier areas while relying on pve farming and exploration to bolster thier war fronts.
the pvp sectors would be vulnerable to attacks based on a bidding system, players would bid a certain amount of thier own rescources in order to flip the pvp system to contested, and then instanced sieges on that sytstem could be fought, as players attack the resident starbase and it's defenses.
obviously a system like that would need need many checks and balances, and have to be well thought out, but after implemented would offer a long lasting self perpetuating source of content and meaningful pvp.
I do kind of feel the same way about the Borg. I like them better than the Undine. I like how the Undine can shape shift that's about it. If the Undine were attacking they could look like themselves, Cardassians, Federation, Klingon, Romulan or anyone. They could add variety so maybe they are the answer.
I would much rather it be Dominion and using Pikoy's idea make the STF in the worm hole. Where Dominion NPC's would attack the nodes. I mean dominion not the true way goof balls.
I think if there is a open PVP system there needs to be NPC's in it. So it's not just empty and feels lifeless.
I would also like to see one of the PVP ground zones. Where you could use your away teams. I don't know if it would have to be limited to like say ten players from each faction. This would give STO a pretty unique form of PVP.
Comments
Now having said that I should say I'm not a big proponent of time being spent on open pvp zones for the game yet. I really feel that Cryptic needs to focus on its entire end-game system as the next major system change for the game. PvP is still quite a minority-played aspect of STO and, while I do think it's important to the game, I think when people are leaving STO because of lack of end-game content not from lack of PvP content. PvP is still a minority play-type in this game.
I read a thread kinda on the same lines as this and someone mentioned that it'd be cool to model something after wintergrasp in WoW. I still think that's a great idea. But make it a space battle. An area that would be open pvp always but the main battle would happen every hour or so. Whoever controlled this area would have access to shops and a new short but tough STF. Purhaps there is a worm hole and the STF is through that. One big enemy fight like the crystalline entity fight but set up for 5(regular,elite)/10 man teams(regular,elite). The main battle would be to fight for control of a small space station and its ship yards. Whoever controls the ship yards has more NPC back up. A bit lose but you get the idea.
Also I am a bug supporter of allowing players to flag themselves for open pvp anywhere and opening up the maps to everyone. That way those that want it can and those don't do not have to worry.
I also would love to be able to raid ESD and Qo'nos. I am not big on PvP but I played on a PvP sever in wow and the danger factor to me gave a thrill that was worth the occasional ganking.
Edit: although in the case of the open pvp map I mention above would auto flag you for pvp once you enter.
Collapsing down to monolithic instancing would be a neat goal, but that's a massive structure change for the game, and I suspect not really one that's likely to happen.
I did suggest a Wintergrasp esque solution for population imbalances before, however, it would still be constrained by world instancing, which is a mess. And it'd be incredibly difficult to make it look different than the other pvp games/'battlegrounds' that go on currently. However, the current Wintergrasp/Tol Barad method may actually work for it by simply placing a hard-cap on how many people can participate in each cycle, so you only have one instance. But that has it's own baggage of player frustration. [edit / add] And unfortunately, it would still be just a 'special battleground'.
^ This.
One working model:
- players fly around open-pvp sector space, and may choose to attack each other, or attack enemy NPC freighter convoys/bases within that zone.
- when someone attacks, a battle forms, and players may travel to it, and join (with the same rules as a standard PvP instance - population must be roughly equal). The rules of the battle depend upon how it started.
- winning that battle does something to shift control of the PvP zone.
(you could let fleets claim bases etc)
But I suspect many players want something that is not technically possible with the cryptic engine (e.g. an instance with far more players in it than the engine supports), and they will throw a temper tantrum when something appears that doesn't fit that impractical vision.
EDIT: whatever the outcome, PvP should not affect PvE in any material manner and there would be a revolt if you tried to do that. This is just a PvP system for PvP players.
And yeah, every time I think of PvP my thoughts trail back towards the Triangle as well. Considering that the Romulans are very likely to be the next playable faction, this area would be the perfect meeting ground for characters of all sides to "duke it out".
In terms of how territory control would work in STO ... I'd just take a look at PotBS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirates_of_the_Burning_Sea#Port_contention
Of course you could forego the entire act of changing the area from PvE into PvP space and instead turn the entire Triangle sector into a PvP zone. PvPvE would still happen, though, with the ultimate purpose of weakening a base's defense and so, at some point, permit an invasion. This could be done by things such as raiding freighter convoys or outlying outposts, all the while threatened by enemy players joining in to defend their faction's assets.
As already pointed out, PvP battles could be open for anyone to join, and use a balancing system that would allow neither side to have more than +1 player in the zone. So if someone from Starfleet got jumped by three Birds-of-Prey prowling the neutral zone, the match would be a 1v2, and the third BoP could only join in once the Starfleet player received backup.
This could even allow APB-style gameplay of PvPvE missions where players from one faction can attack PvE assets of the enemy, in turn generating an automated "distress call" mission for nearby players of the assaulted faction.
Say something like:
A PvP Sector with 4 Strategic Systems. Other Systems can be added for Exploration.- Each Strategic System having 4 Stations. Widely dispersed in orbits, in Asteroid Fields or in the Open.
- Each Station having 4 Defense Beacons, which prevent beaming onto the Station.
- The Sector is initially hostile to ALL Factions, one time only or until reset by the Staff for some reason.
- PvP Encounters can occur in Sector Space.
- To take a Station the 4 Beacons must be disabled. Then the Station can be boarded by both Factions.
- Any attack on the Beacons Broadcasts a Distress Call to everyone in the Sector.
- The aggressors would have to make their way to a Control Room on the Station.
- From the Control Room the Beacons can be set to allow their Faction to beam onto the Station while preventing others from doing so, Capturing the Station.
- Capturing a Station grants that Faction Access to the Station's Services and Broadcasts their claim to every Ship in the Sector. That Factions NPC's will patrol the interior of that Station.
- Capturing 4 Stations in a System capture the System and Broadcasts their claim to every Ship in the Sector and to every Factions Home Base. That Factions NPC's ships will patrol that System.
- Capturing 4 Systems captures the Sector and Broadcasts their claim to every Ship in Space and to every Factions Home Base. That Factions NPC's ships will patrol that Sector and all of its Systems.
- The Faction controlling the Sector gets access a Sensor Bonus.
- Players getting destroyed/disabled anywhere in this Sector will be respawned at their Faction's Home Planet.
I'd play this. Sounds like a lot of fun. Only problem I'd have is spawning at home planet. That'd be super annoying.
Edit to add:
Make it open to ALL ranks.
Set the Difficulty so that it would be difficult but not impossible for a VA to do it solo, so long as no one responds to the distress broadcasts.
Hehe true. Kk let's compromise. To bad we can't create these in the foundry. But maybe pvp maps are in the foundry's future. Still dig your idea.
Unless they get past the limitations of heroes in space.
This was the only attempt I made in the foundry. Just one Station. Once I saw that I wouldn't get to set it for PvP I stopped.
Thanks. I Appreciate that.
The symbol of the faction that controlled the system either Borg, Federation or Klingon. Would appear on the sector space map. There would be two space systems to control and two ground systems. Controlling all four system would grant bonuses with special vendors and discounts and a special STF Pikoy mentioned. Where a player would get items only obtainable from that STF so players will want to run it. So they will want to control the sector.
Like the author in the thread a couple of days ago suggested there would be NPC's involved. Like every couple of hours the Borg would attack and retake the nodes if they weren't defended. They would defeat the controlling factions NPC's. There would need to be about five players of that faction to fend of the Borg. This could help with balance and give out number players a chance to take a node but they risk having to fight the Borg and the other faction.
After a faction takes control of a system NPC's from that faction will warp in or beam down. The system couldn't be retaken for like five minutes after it's captured. So each side could regroup and call in reinforcements from their faction. Each faction would come in behind NPC's that couldn't be destroyed to prevent spawn camping.
Each side would get the special vendors if they control two systems but would have to control all to get access to the STF.
In general, I like the idea of PvPvE, but I would prefer using NPCs of the opposing faction that will move to establish a "balance of powers" in the contested sector.
A neutral faction would be an idea, too, of course. How about, if - bringing this thing back into the Triangle Sector
Also, should there be "risk missions" that may not always require combat? I could imagine a daily mission where you have to escort a freighter convoy that can come under attack by an enemy player at any moment. If no other player shows up, you have a couple uneventful minutes where you just hold position next to the freighter as he casually flies to his next navpoint (small reward for "being there"). If another player does show up you have to defend the freighter from being boarded (big reward if you win, small reward for "being there" even if you loose).
I picture a large open sector, roughly the size of all the current sectors combined.
this massive area would be divided into systems, and the systems would be fairly empty, basic templates containing zero pve content.
each system would contain either a planet, a nebula, asteroid belt...roughly one major feature per system.
A fleet can claim ownership of a system, and based on the object in that system would recieve a trickle of resources... say a nebula provides alien artifacts, or an asteroid system provides ore.
when the fleet reaches a certain amount of resources they can begin construction of a starbase, and subsequently can travel to that base from anywhere ala transwarp.
the base would provide crafting areas that would require system control components that allowed players to build defenses, ship parts and other materials.
some systems would be PVE and others would be PVP, the pvp systems and pve systems would both contain components, so players would barter with each other, fleets combining to conquer riskier areas while relying on pve farming and exploration to bolster thier war fronts.
the pvp sectors would be vulnerable to attacks based on a bidding system, players would bid a certain amount of thier own rescources in order to flip the pvp system to contested, and then instanced sieges on that sytstem could be fought, as players attack the resident starbase and it's defenses.
obviously a system like that would need need many checks and balances, and have to be well thought out, but after implemented would offer a long lasting self perpetuating source of content and meaningful pvp.
couldn't agree more there
I would much rather it be Dominion and using Pikoy's idea make the STF in the worm hole. Where Dominion NPC's would attack the nodes. I mean dominion not the true way goof balls.
I think if there is a open PVP system there needs to be NPC's in it. So it's not just empty and feels lifeless.
I would also like to see one of the PVP ground zones. Where you could use your away teams. I don't know if it would have to be limited to like say ten players from each faction. This would give STO a pretty unique form of PVP.