I was watching the third episode of STOked from 2009 in an attempt to check out what I had missed and see the changes in STO from prelaunch till now while the current STOked is on holiday break like everything else, and they were talking about player progression in the game with the limited facts they had. I had a spark of genius (yeah it happens often, but this time it was about STO), and I went off on a tangent and came up with this.
First I'm gonna paint you a basic picture of how STO's rank system is currently to point out the main fault:
Each time you rank up in the first half of Star Trek Online, you are given new slots for your ship, your bank, your inventory and more importantly your Bridge Officers. This is especially good for the Ground game, where you are not limited to what ship slots you have available and there is no real reason why you wouldn't have Four Commander rank officers running around with you at Captain level.
But once you hit Admiral, your Bridge Officers stagnate, they can not go over Commander level so as you continue to rank upwards your Bridge Officers stay the same for the next Twenty levels (At this point, as they are planning on adding more in). Now it is obvious that they can't have 4 Captain ranks running around the ship, as it would be just as bad as the millions of Admirals running around on ESD.
Now for my concept:
You reach the level of Admiral, you can promote one of your Bridge Officers to the rank of Captain. Now as you may of heard, this is what they are planning to do, you promote your first officer up to Captain and then it becomes a playable alt for you to use. However with my Concept, they stay as an NPC and under your command.
At the Rank of Rear Admiral Lower Half, you can promote one of your Bridge Officers to Captain of a new ship, and this ship would be an NPC "pet" in the same fashion as your bridge officers in the ground game, the ships follow behind and your rear Admiral is effectively the commander of a fleet (even though they are only two). Then at the rank of Rear Admiral Upper Half, you can promote another of your bridge officers to captain and hand them a ship to follow along in. As you progress up the ladder, you are no longer just playing as one ship but as 2,3,4 or 5 customizable ships and you become a Fleet Admiral just as you would expect the rank to be.
They would function in the same way as a Bridge Officer does now, they wouldn't enter social areas like ESD or DS9 where they would clog up space (and perhaps would be hidden during Sector Space Travel). They would be replaceable in Teams by Players. Would be completely customizable like your own captain visually, though having a more basic skill set.
This would effectively change space game play for Admiral into a different tactical game, rather than just being the same game as at Captain level with new ships/components and gives you more things to customize (new crews and ships) which would reinvigorate the game half way through as you don't have as much to look forward to once you reach Rear Admiral.
Overall it sticks with pre-existing game mechanics (essentially becoming space boffs) and sticks within the Trek universe, where an Admiral doesn't just command one ship, but an entire fleet (even if it is just a small scale).
Now if someone else had come up with this and I am just repeating it, then sorry, I don't read every thread and couldn't word the search for the entire concept to find it.
Great idea in my opinion and you'll be glad to know they are working on it:
Level cap increase to 61 (Fleet Admiral / Dahar Master), with ability to build fleet-run starbases and special type of gameplay where you can begin to build away teams in space (other ships that you command)
Taken from the STO wiki from the article on future content.
This is pretty much what I was hoping for, too, though I have to wonder how five BOff ships would work in larger groups. Too many NPC's flying around can have a severe impact on performance. Think about it; three people with four wingmen each is 15 ships total flying around, not counting NPC enemies! That could cause issues. I'd personally limit it to only two wingmen (just enough to represent each ship type if you so desire) to help reduce stress on lesser machines in teams.
Would the BOff ships only appear in small teams (three or less players) and be disabled in social hubs to save performance? Or would you simply be limited in number of wingmen in larger teams? (for example, you lose one wingman for every teammate you have)?
This is pretty much what I was hoping for, too, though I have to wonder how five BOff ships would work in larger groups.
I think they could be aiming for a situation as it exists in ground combat, where you always have four other people with you - either players or NPCs.
So, they could scale all Admiral-level missions for a group of 5 ships, and upon entering you get a popup where you can select NPC-controlled ships for your little squadron - either ships commanded by former BOs you promoted to Captain, or simply a bunch of random extras ("Redshirt Mirandas") in case you don't yet have enough BO Captains under your command.
And if you have other players with you, they will automatically fill in some or all of the slots otherwise taken by the NPCs.
I think they could be aiming for a situation as it exists in ground combat, where you always have four other people with you - either players or NPCs.
So, they could scale all Admiral-level missions for a group of 5 ships, and upon entering you get a popup where you can select NPC-controlled ships for your little squadron - either ships commanded by former BOs you promoted to Captain, or simply a bunch of random extras ("Redshirt Mirandas") in case you don't yet have enough BO Captains under your command.
And if you have other players with you, they will automatically fill in some or all of the slots otherwise taken by the NPCs.
*foreheadslap*
Of course. I have literally been playing the answer to my question for months. Duh Jex.
I think they could be aiming for a situation as it exists in ground combat, where you always have four other people with you - either players or NPCs.
So, they could scale all Admiral-level missions for a group of 5 ships, and upon entering you get a popup where you can select NPC-controlled ships for your little squadron - either ships commanded by former BOs you promoted to Captain, or simply a bunch of random extras ("Redshirt Mirandas") in case you don't yet have enough BO Captains under your command.
And if you have other players with you, they will automatically fill in some or all of the slots otherwise taken by the NPCs.
Yeah my thoughts exactly, however I don't see the need for "Redshirt starships" as by the time you reach the level to do this, you would have the credits/merits or whatever to out fit the new ship and I would never pick a red shirt over skilled BoFF. Though I can see them add it in as a back-up for people who would...
Yeah my thoughts exactly, however I don't see the need for "Redshirt starships" as by the time you reach the level to do this, you would have the credits/merits or whatever to out fit the new ship and I would never pick a red shirt over skilled BoFF. Though I can see them add it in as a back-up for people who would...
Well, I'd imagine it would not be a question of credits but rather a lack of BOs promoted to Captains - kind of like when you left the tutorial and don't have a full crew of BOs yet, so you get Redshirts on your away team.
This would mostly concern people leveling straight through from Captain to Fleet Admiral, though. The veterans who have been "stuck" on one or more of the ranks until the Fleet Feature will be implemented should have enough BO skill points and merit/honor available to create a full squadron right away.
Ideally, the Fleet Feature would not just be available on the FAdm level but already on Rear Admiral, just with huge limitations on what kind of squadron you can build. Either by numbers (we have four levels of Admiral, and can get a maximum of four ships in a group = +1 BO ship per rank tier?) or by ship type (T1 to T4 = +1T per rank tier, your T5 vessel will be the flagship). Just a thought, of course.
The cool thing is that this system could be used anywhere in the game, if you just make the entire thing optional so that people who prefer to do so could keep on doing content solo with a single vessel, whereas others can build a squadron for bigger battles, balancing additional difficulty (managing tactical combat on fleet scale as opposed to just focusing on your one ship and a fifth of the potential enemies) with more loot.
I like this idea too. It would certainly make Admiral space combat different from other levels. If they did go this route, I hope they would link it with changes to the ranking system. Even if they just added another 10 grades to the captain rank, it would add more of a sense of acomplishment on making rear admiral. The other thing the devs should then look at is loosening the level banding on pvp. As a Vice Admiral, I would still rather team with a couple of human captains over NPC captains.
Follow-up post. The other thing that would be interesting with this approach is the whole fleet management aspect. Do you bring a mix of science, cruisers, and escorts; what do you build complementary boff powers across the ships? It really would add a whole new level of depth to the game. Just another thought, to avoid confusion with 'teams' and 'fleets', I would call the NPC group a "squadron". Although that term is normally associated with aviation or cavalry, it is also a naval term applying to a small group of warships (normally submarines or destroyers, but can be applied to others as well).
Well, I'd imagine it would not be a question of credits but rather a lack of BOs promoted to Captains - kind of like when you left the tutorial and don't have a full crew of BOs yet, so you get Redshirts on your away team.
This would mostly concern people leveling straight through from Captain to Fleet Admiral, though. The veterans who have been "stuck" on one or more of the ranks until the Fleet Feature will be implemented should have enough BO skill points and merit/honor available to create a full squadron right away.
True, but at that point you did not have creds to buy the Boffs. By the time you reach Rear Admiral, you would have all four ground BoFF's maxed at Commander level and probably most of the ones you use in space (if its not the same ones). So therefore it would be no different to the changes between promoting your boff from Lt Cmdr to Cmdr.
Ideally, the Fleet Feature would not just be available on the FAdm level but already on Rear Admiral, just with huge limitations on what kind of squadron you can build. Either by numbers (we have four levels of Admiral, and can get a maximum of four ships in a group = +1 BO ship per rank tier?) or by ship type (T1 to T4 = +1T per rank tier, your T5 vessel will be the flagship). Just a thought, of course.
My concept would be a new fleet ship slot per Admiral rank. For example: Rear Admiral = One extra Ship for your wing (probably be best to call it wing to save confusion from Fleets), Vice Admiral = Another ship etc.
By the time you reach Fleet Admiral you will have your full wing of five ships (including your own), this would be no different that the restriction of how many Boffs slots you have at each rank. Also I didn't think about Ship classes, but I would say it should be like BoFF items, they depend on the rank of the player and not the BoFF, so you would have instant access to all ships available to you for your wing (including any C-Store purchases).
The cool thing is that this system could be used anywhere in the game, if you just make the entire thing optional so that people who prefer to do so could keep on doing content solo with a single vessel, whereas others can build a squadron for bigger battles, balancing additional difficulty (managing tactical combat on fleet scale as opposed to just focusing on your one ship and a fifth of the potential enemies) with more loot.
I'd assume they have an Auto-Scaling system in place for teams anyway, however I think that because BoFF's have less skills than a Player, that the scaling for a Player with a wing of BoFF's should be smaller than a Player with a Team of other players.
And yeah, I agree, it should be an option so people with lower end systems can turn it off incase their machines can't handle the increase in resources, as no doubt ships use more than Ground Boffs.
I like this idea too. It would certainly make Admiral space combat different from other levels. If they did go this route, I hope they would link it with changes to the ranking system. Even if they just added another 10 grades to the captain rank, it would add more of a sense of acomplishment on making rear admiral. The other thing the devs should then look at is loosening the level banding on pvp. As a Vice Admiral, I would still rather team with a couple of human captains over NPC captains.
I agree, I would of preferred a Commodore/Fleet Captain rank in between.
And yeah, as Boffs would have less skills in comparison to Players, there would still be a need to team up for STF's and PvP
Follow-up post. The other thing that would be interesting with this approach is the whole fleet management aspect. Do you bring a mix of science, cruisers, and escorts; what do you build complementary boff powers across the ships? It really would add a whole new level of depth to the game.
Yeah I hadn't quite of thought weather they Captain BoFFs would get their own, I would probably say not. I would just have it that you have a few Captain skills slots added to the BoFF and then you can add the ship components and consoles like your own starship. This way there isn't too many variables, (5 ships, with 5 crews each, with 5 skills each...) and it would encourage people to group up with players who would be fully stated.
Just another thought, to avoid confusion with 'teams' and 'fleets', I would call the NPC group a "squadron". Although that term is normally associated with aviation or cavalry, it is also a naval term applying to a small group of warships (normally submarines or destroyers, but can be applied to others as well).
Also I didn't think about Ship classes, but I would say it should be like BoFF items, they depend on the rank of the player and not the BoFF, so you would have instant access to all ships available to you for your wing (including any C-Store purchases).
In my mind I'd always make sure that one's BOs would have lesser ships than the player character. He is the Admiral, his is the flagship, hence he gets the best and the biggest. This will also give the rank more meaning, as bigger ships are always more impressive. So a Rear Admiral will only have a bunch of Centaurs or Mirandas with him, whilst a Fleet Admiral's task force might even boast a couple Galaxies - just as an example.
I could think of a numerical difference in addition to this, though. For example that you could only get a maximum of two additional ships at first, but receive another one later, and a fourth and final ship on the FAdm level. Of note is that you could still have other ships "in reserve" (like unused BOs), you just can't take them into the mission. This could be explained by the Admiral's fleet being bigger than just the ships he travels with, as some ships will be engaged in missions elsewhere in the sector etc.
Personal preferences, though. It cannot really be argued what would be "better", as this is based purely on my feeling on the subject.
I'd assume they have an Auto-Scaling system in place for teams anyway, however I think that because BoFF's have less skills than a Player, that the scaling for a Player with a wing of BoFF's should be smaller than a Player with a Team of other players.
Nah, that's additional difficulty.
Gotta pay a price for the drops and the prestige of commanding a fleet. But also let's not forget that a BO ship will likely be at least as good as an NPC vessel, so in the end it would be a 5v5 just as it is currently a 1v1 when you're attacking a spawn without other players in your team. With the benefit that you have full control over what target your squadron will attack.
And yeah, I agree, it should be an option so people with lower end systems can turn it off incase their machines can't handle the increase in resources, as no doubt ships use more than Ground Boffs.
That, and some people might simply find it too hard to try commanding their fleet and control their own ship. It's like with the difference in ground combat when you're all alone or have an away team with you, just that space combat requires a bit more skill as you're moving constantly as opposed to the rather stationary firefights on the ground.
Mmmh... I'm getting more and more ideas, should probably write up a proper concept of my own.
I thought of wing, though Squadron probably fit better as they aren't fighters.
Both can be used, actually. Squadrons can be made up of fighters, and - as we have seen in DS9 - there can be wings of Galaxies.
Just go with what you like best (there are even more options too). I for myself opted for squadron as that one seems to be more prevalent when it comes to naval formations. Also, a wing is larger than a squadron, and we probably won't get to command that many ships.
In my mind I'd always make sure that one's BOs would have lesser ships than the player character. He is the Admiral, his is the flagship, hence he gets the best and the biggest. This will also give the rank more meaning, as bigger ships are always more impressive. So a Rear Admiral will only have a bunch of Centaurs or Mirandas with him, whilst a Fleet Admiral's task force might even boast a couple Galaxies - just as an example.
My only issue is that they are of Captain rank, so giving them a "lieutenant" rank ship would be pointless at Admiral levels. I see your point, but I don't see why they should be restricted as Picard was a captain and he got a T5 Galaxy retrofit :P
I could think of a numerical difference in addition to this, though. For example that you could only get a maximum of two additional ships at first, but receive another one later, and a fourth and final ship on the FAdm level. Of note is that you could still have other ships "in reserve" (like unused BOs), you just can't take them into the mission. This could be explained by the Admiral's fleet being bigger than just the ships he travels with, as some ships will be engaged in missions elsewhere in the sector etc.
So you would have your Squadron Captains in starships on one tab, lets say about ten from which you can pick and choose, and then each time you promote one of your BoFF's you can replace their position in your own crew and keep the same number as you do now (10 I think it was)?
That way you can take different Squadron Captains as the mission requires just like you would ground team? (Not that I swap mine around at all and I have about 5 BoFF's who do nothing)
Nah, that's additional difficulty.
Gotta pay a price for the drops and the prestige of commanding a fleet. But also let's not forget that a BO ship will likely be at least as good as an NPC vessel, so in the end it would be a 5v5 just as it is currently a 1v1 when you're attacking a spawn without other players in your team. With the benefit that you have full control over what target your squadron will attack.
Well that's a good point, though at the moment its rarely even odds
That, and some people might simply find it too hard to try commanding their fleet and control their own ship. It's like with the difference in ground combat when you're all alone or have an away team with you, just that space combat requires a bit more skill as you're moving constantly as opposed to the rather stationary firefights on the ground.
Most of the time I just worry about the heals (which most of us have set up enough heals for our own ship using BoFFs during space combat to not worry about) and ordering who to target while playing on the ground and let them go on automatic for everything else. I couldn't see much need to micromanage every ship, but there would be players who like to do it.
My only issue is that they are of Captain rank, so giving them a "lieutenant" rank ship would be pointless at Admiral levels. I see your point, but I don't see why they should be restricted as Picard was a captain and he got a T5 Galaxy retrofit :P
And Charlie Reynolds was a Captain and he got a Centaur-class.
We've got to keep in mind that, in Starfleet, you're generally not given command of any ship unless you're a Commander or a Captain. Player progression in STO is a gameplay-induced exception from this rule explained away by a special commission achieved under unusual circumstances. No need to establish this as standard.
Normally, the biggest thing a Lieutenant would be in command of would be a Runabout.
So you would have your Squadron Captains in starships on one tab, lets say about ten from which you can pick and choose, and then each time you promote one of your BoFF's you can replace their position in your own crew and keep the same number as you do now (10 I think it was)?
That way you can take different Squadron Captains as the mission requires just like you would ground team? (Not that I swap mine around at all and I have about 5 BoFF's who do nothing)
Exactly.
Like in ground combat, where you have your list of BO's in the character tab, and the "away team" popup menu where you define who to take with you.
Well that's a good point, though at the moment its rarely even odds
Hmm, how so? In dailies and some missions you often encounter "special spawns" such as two capital ships or one capital ship and two frigates ... but the normal random spawn (for example in exploration cluster missions) is either 1 escort / science ship / cruiser or 3 squishy frigates.
I could imagine battles being harder in the aforementioned dailies and some of the missions, but I still think it'd be doable even if the enemy is in numerical advantage, simply due to you having the advantage of lots of special abilities.
Then again, if BO Captains start out with weaker ships such as Centaurs maybe you are right and a unique method of balancing a mission is required, else they'd blow up too easily...
Most of the time I just worry about the heals (which most of us have set up enough heals for our own ship using BoFFs during space combat to not worry about) and ordering who to target while playing on the ground and let them go on automatic for everything else. I couldn't see much need to micromanage every ship, but there would be players who like to do it.
Yeah, same. It's like micromanaging your away team's skills or just letting your BOs do their own stuff. I often do both depending solely on my mood or how difficult an encounter turns out.
And Charlie Reynolds was a Captain and he got a Centaur-class.
We've got to keep in mind that, in Starfleet, you're generally not given command of any ship unless you're a Commander or a Captain. Player progression in STO is a gameplay-induced exception from this rule explained away by a special commission achieved under unusual circumstances. No need to establish this as standard.
Normally, the biggest thing a Lieutenant would be in command of would be a Runabout.
Understood, but if they don't have their own bridge officers than there is nothing to stop players from choosing the ships they want to play with, rather than restricted to those in the specific tier. Heck I keep seeing myself using the Olympic class as my primary medical healer ship because it looks the part.
I just think that allowing them to use whatever ship they can already use (eg Rear Admirals won't get access to the Tier 5 Retrofits and above as they add more tiers in) sits within the current settings that Cryptic has set up for BoFF equipment restrictions.
Like in ground combat, where you have your list of BO's in the character tab, and the "away team" popup menu where you define who to take with you.
I like this idea, I originally thought of them staying within your current roster and just switching them in and out with your current team, because as I stated before I have a few Bridge officers doing nothing anyway, so might as well use 4 for Away team, 5 for Ship Crew and another 4 Squadron Captains, with the ability to swap and match as you see fit rather than having them separate. Either way, I'd be happy...
Hmm, how so? In dailies and some missions you often encounter "special spawns" such as two capital ships or one capital ship and two frigates ... but the normal random spawn (for example in exploration cluster missions) is either 1 escort / science ship / cruiser or 3 squishy frigates.
I guess if you stick to mission maps that is so, but how about DSE's, Warzones or other wise? Would Squadrons be disabled?
Yeah, same. It's like micromanaging your away team's skills or just letting your BOs do their own stuff. I often do both depending solely on my mood or how difficult an encounter turns out.
95% of the time I just let them do their own thing, only calling on heals from my medic who wasn't paying attention. Or if I encounter a boss, I get them all to target the same guy and take the biggest one down first, only rarely have I been required to use other tactics which required manual control of a BoFF due to being wiped by the enemy a couple of times.
Understood, but if they don't have their own bridge officers than there is nothing to stop players from choosing the ships they want to play with, rather than restricted to those in the specific tier. Heck I keep seeing myself using the Olympic class as my primary medical healer ship because it looks the part.
I just think that allowing them to use whatever ship they can already use (eg Rear Admirals won't get access to the Tier 5 Retrofits and above as they add more tiers in) sits within the current settings that Cryptic has set up for BoFF equipment restrictions.
As I said, personal preferences. I think that an Admiral's squadron should "grow" with the rank of its commander, and this includes the strength and size of the ships that are part of this flotilla.
There's just so much more to gain in terms of progression if you start out with a couple of Saber-class escorts on your flanks and end with an entire squadron of cruisers at your beck and call. Both in terms of accomplishment ("I'm a Fleet Admiral, now I can finally requisition Galaxies. badass!") as well as a linear increase in difficulty - as more advanced ships would come with more abilities you could and might have to choose from to win an encounter.
To exemplify what I'm thinking about:
RALH: 2 ships, T1 (1 power)
RAUH: 2 ships, up to T2 (2 powers)
VAdm: 2 ships, up to T3 (3 powers) or 4 ships, up to T2 (2 powers) <-?
Adm: 4 ships, up to T3 (3 powers)
FAdm: 4 ships, up to T4 (4 powers)
This would mean that your "party UI" as a FAdm in space would look very much like it does as a Captain on ground. Four NPCs, each with 4 BO powers.
This system could also be modular, for example that ships will have a certain "point value" determined by its tier, and your rank determines how many points you can invest in the squadron you want to take into the fight - so that you can mix and match and show up with a single Galaxy at your side as a VAdm, or rather go for three Saber-class escorts...
Ahh, there are so many directions you can take this thing to!
As I said, personal preferences. I think that an Admiral's squadron should "grow" with the rank of its commander, and this includes the strength and size of the ships that are part of this flotilla.
There's just so much more to gain in terms of progression if you start out with a couple of Saber-class escorts on your flanks and end with an entire squadron of cruisers at your beck and call. Both in terms of accomplishment ("I'm a Fleet Admiral, now I can finally requisition Galaxies. badass!") as well as a linear increase in difficulty - as more advanced ships would come with more abilities you could and might have to choose from to win an encounter.
To exemplify what I'm thinking about:
RALH: 2 ships, T1 (1 power)
RAUH: 2 ships, up to T2 (2 powers)
VAdm: 2 ships, up to T3 (3 powers) or 4 ships, up to T2 (2 powers) <-?
Adm: 4 ships, up to T3 (3 powers)
FAdm: 4 ships, up to T4 (4 powers)
This would mean that your "party UI" as a FAdm in space would look very much like it does as a Captain on ground. Four NPCs, each with 4 BO powers.
This system could also be modular, for example that ships will have a certain "point value" determined by its tier, and your rank determines how many points you can invest in the squadron you want to take into the fight - so that you can mix and match and show up with a single Galaxy at your side as a VAdm, or rather go for three Saber-class escorts...
Ahh, there are so many directions you can take this thing to!
I like the way this looks. But from the look of it, would you only be able to place a BOff of corresponding profession into a ship? That'd be my preference.
Also, would these ships take up space in your shipyard? Would you be able to custom outfit them? I don't mind working my BOffs up from a fragile little T1, so long as I can outfit it with top-of-the-line weapons and shields so at least the pup has a little bite.
The really interesting part will be PvP...
I'd suggest this a good way to introduce a new 3 vs 3 pvp type for high level players; Fleet Engagements. Thee FAs bring in their 4-man fleets for 15-on-15 battles.
I like the way this looks. But from the look of it, would you only be able to place a BOff of corresponding profession into a ship? That'd be my preference.
Humm, I don't have a strong feeling either way. I could also see it in a way that the ships only provide a bonus to their Captain's powers if they are crewed by the "right" career - or vice versa, that it's not the BOs that come with certain powers but that they are instead locked to the ship type, and a correct BO will add his experience as a bonus.
I wouldn't mind if it would only work your way, though. It'd likely only affect my selection of BOs to promote to Captains, as I would go largely by style - meaning, I already have a fairly solid idea of how my fleet is supposed to look like in terms of ship classes.
We also have to keep in mind that this strict connection between career and ship category only exists in the Federation. The KDF is a different beast in that they don't have true science ships until T5, but two categories of DPS glasscannons.
Also, would these ships take up space in your shipyard?
Huh. I don't think so - they'd likely get an extra tab. Though I could see it done using the existing ship system, too. This at least would hint towards the option of customizing them like our own ships. In fact, we might be able to give our newly promoted Captains the very ships we once used ourselves! Talkin' bout a legacy.
Would you be able to custom outfit them? I don't mind working my BOffs up from a fragile little T1, so long as I can outfit it with top-of-the-line weapons and shields so at least the pup has a little bite.
I'd suggest this a good way to introduce a new 3 vs 3 pvp type for high level players; Fleet Engagements. Thee FAs bring in their 4-man fleets for 15-on-15 battles.
Love that idea. That would surely be an epic battle, even if the strong PvE presence would turn it more into a sort of strategy-action-hybrid. But then again, wouldn't that make it all the more exciting and special?
My own vision would also allow Admirals to send off ships under your command to missions on their own, making them unavailable for a certain amount of time, but possibly having them return with rewards. The most obvious example would be to send a science ship into an exploration cluster, from which it'd return ~20 hours later with a bunch of anomalies you don't have to collect yourself.
As I said, personal preferences. I think that an Admiral's squadron should "grow" with the rank of its commander, and this includes the strength and size of the ships that are part of this flotilla.
There's just so much more to gain in terms of progression if you start out with a couple of Saber-class escorts on your flanks and end with an entire squadron of cruisers at your beck and call. Both in terms of accomplishment ("I'm a Fleet Admiral, now I can finally requisition Galaxies. badass!") as well as a linear increase in difficulty - as more advanced ships would come with more abilities you could and might have to choose from to win an encounter.
To exemplify what I'm thinking about:
RALH: 2 ships, T1 (1 power)
RAUH: 2 ships, up to T2 (2 powers)
VAdm: 2 ships, up to T3 (3 powers) or 4 ships, up to T2 (2 powers) <-?
Adm: 4 ships, up to T3 (3 powers)
FAdm: 4 ships, up to T4 (4 powers)
This would mean that your "party UI" as a FAdm in space would look very much like it does as a Captain on ground. Four NPCs, each with 4 BO powers.
This system could also be modular, for example that ships will have a certain "point value" determined by its tier, and your rank determines how many points you can invest in the squadron you want to take into the fight - so that you can mix and match and show up with a single Galaxy at your side as a VAdm, or rather go for three Saber-class escorts...
Ahh, there are so many directions you can take this thing to!
I like this idea.
Edit: Here is my Version:
RALH: Ability to equip "BoFF Captain" to your current ship (1 power)
RAUH: 1 squadron ships, up to T2 (1 powers)
VAdm: 2 squadron ships, up to T3 (2 powers)
Adm: 3 squadron ships, up to T4 (3 powers)
FAdm: 4 squadron ships, up to T5 (4 powers)
Adding T5's would be solely dependant on them adding T6's for Admiral and Fleet Admiral players
That's a good question - though you could likely "tweak" high level DSEs to work with squadrons as well. The really interesting part will be PvP...
My only concern with DSE's is the fact that you can have quite a few people in each instance (not sure the limits), and if everyone of those players brought in 4 squadron members, if that would put a strain on bandwidth, resources or whatever causing the instance to lag or other instabilities?
Humm, I don't have a strong feeling either way. I could also see it in a way that the ships only provide a bonus to their Captain's powers if they are crewed by the "right" career - or vice versa, that it's not the BOs that come with certain powers but that they are instead locked to the ship type, and a correct BO will add his experience as a bonus.
I wouldn't mind if it would only work your way, though. It'd likely only affect my selection of BOs to promote to Captains, as I would go largely by style - meaning, I already have a fairly solid idea of how my fleet is supposed to look like in terms of ship classes.
We also have to keep in mind that this strict connection between career and ship category only exists in the Federation. The KDF is a different beast in that they don't have true science ships until T5, but two categories of DPS glasscannons.
I personally would have it unrestricted like players have now, though certain ships have certain bonuses that would encourage players to use that craft. For example the Olympic having +5 for Science Team 1 as it is the only real Medical ship in game, Defiant being +10% cannon weaponry.
Huh. I don't think so - they'd likely get an extra tab. Though I could see it done using the existing ship system, too. This at least would hint towards the option of customizing them like our own ships. In fact, we might be able to give our newly promoted Captains the very ships we once used ourselves! Talkin' bout a legacy.
I would like to see it as a separate Tab in your profile and not in your ship yards, so basically it would be equipped at all times. But you can switch them from the ship yard to your squadron at any time. I would also like to see it as equipping the ship with a BoFF like a component.
My own vision would also allow Admirals to send off ships under your command to missions on their own, making them unavailable for a certain amount of time, but possibly having them return with rewards. The most obvious example would be to send a science ship into an exploration cluster, from which it'd return ~20 hours later with a bunch of anomalies you don't have to collect yourself.
Now that would be awesome, similar to what they did in Assassins Creed Brotherhood, where you can send out your NPC's for a time to complete missions and you get the rewards. However if you send out every ship, you won't have any to assist you on your own missions.
Wow if this was included, the second half of the game would be vast compared to the first half. You would actually feel like you were just a crewmen with limited scope until you hit admiral.
Comments
Taken from the STO wiki from the article on future content.
Interesting, but hopefully its implemented for the entire Admiral ranks and includes something to do with your Boffs.
Thanks for the info.
Would the BOff ships only appear in small teams (three or less players) and be disabled in social hubs to save performance? Or would you simply be limited in number of wingmen in larger teams? (for example, you lose one wingman for every teammate you have)?
So, they could scale all Admiral-level missions for a group of 5 ships, and upon entering you get a popup where you can select NPC-controlled ships for your little squadron - either ships commanded by former BOs you promoted to Captain, or simply a bunch of random extras ("Redshirt Mirandas") in case you don't yet have enough BO Captains under your command.
And if you have other players with you, they will automatically fill in some or all of the slots otherwise taken by the NPCs.
*foreheadslap*
Of course. I have literally been playing the answer to my question for months. Duh Jex.
Excellent! I'd forgotten Cryptic had commented on this.
Yeah my thoughts exactly, however I don't see the need for "Redshirt starships" as by the time you reach the level to do this, you would have the credits/merits or whatever to out fit the new ship and I would never pick a red shirt over skilled BoFF. Though I can see them add it in as a back-up for people who would...
This would mostly concern people leveling straight through from Captain to Fleet Admiral, though. The veterans who have been "stuck" on one or more of the ranks until the Fleet Feature will be implemented should have enough BO skill points and merit/honor available to create a full squadron right away.
Ideally, the Fleet Feature would not just be available on the FAdm level but already on Rear Admiral, just with huge limitations on what kind of squadron you can build. Either by numbers (we have four levels of Admiral, and can get a maximum of four ships in a group = +1 BO ship per rank tier?) or by ship type (T1 to T4 = +1T per rank tier, your T5 vessel will be the flagship). Just a thought, of course.
The cool thing is that this system could be used anywhere in the game, if you just make the entire thing optional so that people who prefer to do so could keep on doing content solo with a single vessel, whereas others can build a squadron for bigger battles, balancing additional difficulty (managing tactical combat on fleet scale as opposed to just focusing on your one ship and a fifth of the potential enemies) with more loot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron_(naval)
True, but at that point you did not have creds to buy the Boffs. By the time you reach Rear Admiral, you would have all four ground BoFF's maxed at Commander level and probably most of the ones you use in space (if its not the same ones). So therefore it would be no different to the changes between promoting your boff from Lt Cmdr to Cmdr.
My concept would be a new fleet ship slot per Admiral rank. For example: Rear Admiral = One extra Ship for your wing (probably be best to call it wing to save confusion from Fleets), Vice Admiral = Another ship etc.
By the time you reach Fleet Admiral you will have your full wing of five ships (including your own), this would be no different that the restriction of how many Boffs slots you have at each rank. Also I didn't think about Ship classes, but I would say it should be like BoFF items, they depend on the rank of the player and not the BoFF, so you would have instant access to all ships available to you for your wing (including any C-Store purchases).
I'd assume they have an Auto-Scaling system in place for teams anyway, however I think that because BoFF's have less skills than a Player, that the scaling for a Player with a wing of BoFF's should be smaller than a Player with a Team of other players.
And yeah, I agree, it should be an option so people with lower end systems can turn it off incase their machines can't handle the increase in resources, as no doubt ships use more than Ground Boffs.
I agree, I would of preferred a Commodore/Fleet Captain rank in between.
And yeah, as Boffs would have less skills in comparison to Players, there would still be a need to team up for STF's and PvP
Yeah I hadn't quite of thought weather they Captain BoFFs would get their own, I would probably say not. I would just have it that you have a few Captain skills slots added to the BoFF and then you can add the ship components and consoles like your own starship. This way there isn't too many variables, (5 ships, with 5 crews each, with 5 skills each...) and it would encourage people to group up with players who would be fully stated.
I thought of wing, though Squadron probably fit better as they aren't fighters.
I could think of a numerical difference in addition to this, though. For example that you could only get a maximum of two additional ships at first, but receive another one later, and a fourth and final ship on the FAdm level. Of note is that you could still have other ships "in reserve" (like unused BOs), you just can't take them into the mission. This could be explained by the Admiral's fleet being bigger than just the ships he travels with, as some ships will be engaged in missions elsewhere in the sector etc.
Personal preferences, though. It cannot really be argued what would be "better", as this is based purely on my feeling on the subject.
Nah, that's additional difficulty.
Gotta pay a price for the drops and the prestige of commanding a fleet. But also let's not forget that a BO ship will likely be at least as good as an NPC vessel, so in the end it would be a 5v5 just as it is currently a 1v1 when you're attacking a spawn without other players in your team. With the benefit that you have full control over what target your squadron will attack.
That, and some people might simply find it too hard to try commanding their fleet and control their own ship. It's like with the difference in ground combat when you're all alone or have an away team with you, just that space combat requires a bit more skill as you're moving constantly as opposed to the rather stationary firefights on the ground.
Mmmh... I'm getting more and more ideas, should probably write up a proper concept of my own.
Both can be used, actually. Squadrons can be made up of fighters, and - as we have seen in DS9 - there can be wings of Galaxies.
Just go with what you like best (there are even more options too). I for myself opted for squadron as that one seems to be more prevalent when it comes to naval formations. Also, a wing is larger than a squadron, and we probably won't get to command that many ships.
My only issue is that they are of Captain rank, so giving them a "lieutenant" rank ship would be pointless at Admiral levels. I see your point, but I don't see why they should be restricted as Picard was a captain and he got a T5 Galaxy retrofit :P
So you would have your Squadron Captains in starships on one tab, lets say about ten from which you can pick and choose, and then each time you promote one of your BoFF's you can replace their position in your own crew and keep the same number as you do now (10 I think it was)?
That way you can take different Squadron Captains as the mission requires just like you would ground team? (Not that I swap mine around at all and I have about 5 BoFF's who do nothing)
Well that's a good point, though at the moment its rarely even odds
Most of the time I just worry about the heals (which most of us have set up enough heals for our own ship using BoFFs during space combat to not worry about) and ordering who to target while playing on the ground and let them go on automatic for everything else. I couldn't see much need to micromanage every ship, but there would be players who like to do it.
We've got to keep in mind that, in Starfleet, you're generally not given command of any ship unless you're a Commander or a Captain. Player progression in STO is a gameplay-induced exception from this rule explained away by a special commission achieved under unusual circumstances. No need to establish this as standard.
Normally, the biggest thing a Lieutenant would be in command of would be a Runabout.
Exactly.
Like in ground combat, where you have your list of BO's in the character tab, and the "away team" popup menu where you define who to take with you.
Hmm, how so? In dailies and some missions you often encounter "special spawns" such as two capital ships or one capital ship and two frigates ... but the normal random spawn (for example in exploration cluster missions) is either 1 escort / science ship / cruiser or 3 squishy frigates.
I could imagine battles being harder in the aforementioned dailies and some of the missions, but I still think it'd be doable even if the enemy is in numerical advantage, simply due to you having the advantage of lots of special abilities.
Then again, if BO Captains start out with weaker ships such as Centaurs maybe you are right and a unique method of balancing a mission is required, else they'd blow up too easily...
Yeah, same. It's like micromanaging your away team's skills or just letting your BOs do their own stuff. I often do both depending solely on my mood or how difficult an encounter turns out.
Understood, but if they don't have their own bridge officers than there is nothing to stop players from choosing the ships they want to play with, rather than restricted to those in the specific tier. Heck I keep seeing myself using the Olympic class as my primary medical healer ship because it looks the part.
I just think that allowing them to use whatever ship they can already use (eg Rear Admirals won't get access to the Tier 5 Retrofits and above as they add more tiers in) sits within the current settings that Cryptic has set up for BoFF equipment restrictions.
I like this idea, I originally thought of them staying within your current roster and just switching them in and out with your current team, because as I stated before I have a few Bridge officers doing nothing anyway, so might as well use 4 for Away team, 5 for Ship Crew and another 4 Squadron Captains, with the ability to swap and match as you see fit rather than having them separate. Either way, I'd be happy...
I guess if you stick to mission maps that is so, but how about DSE's, Warzones or other wise? Would Squadrons be disabled?
95% of the time I just let them do their own thing, only calling on heals from my medic who wasn't paying attention. Or if I encounter a boss, I get them all to target the same guy and take the biggest one down first, only rarely have I been required to use other tactics which required manual control of a BoFF due to being wiped by the enemy a couple of times.
There's just so much more to gain in terms of progression if you start out with a couple of Saber-class escorts on your flanks and end with an entire squadron of cruisers at your beck and call. Both in terms of accomplishment ("I'm a Fleet Admiral, now I can finally requisition Galaxies. badass!") as well as a linear increase in difficulty - as more advanced ships would come with more abilities you could and might have to choose from to win an encounter.
To exemplify what I'm thinking about:
This would mean that your "party UI" as a FAdm in space would look very much like it does as a Captain on ground. Four NPCs, each with 4 BO powers.
This system could also be modular, for example that ships will have a certain "point value" determined by its tier, and your rank determines how many points you can invest in the squadron you want to take into the fight - so that you can mix and match and show up with a single Galaxy at your side as a VAdm, or rather go for three Saber-class escorts...
Ahh, there are so many directions you can take this thing to!
That's a good question - though you could likely "tweak" high level DSEs to work with squadrons as well. The really interesting part will be PvP...
I like the way this looks. But from the look of it, would you only be able to place a BOff of corresponding profession into a ship? That'd be my preference.
Also, would these ships take up space in your shipyard? Would you be able to custom outfit them? I don't mind working my BOffs up from a fragile little T1, so long as I can outfit it with top-of-the-line weapons and shields so at least the pup has a little bite.
I'd suggest this a good way to introduce a new 3 vs 3 pvp type for high level players; Fleet Engagements. Thee FAs bring in their 4-man fleets for 15-on-15 battles.
I wouldn't mind if it would only work your way, though. It'd likely only affect my selection of BOs to promote to Captains, as I would go largely by style - meaning, I already have a fairly solid idea of how my fleet is supposed to look like in terms of ship classes.
We also have to keep in mind that this strict connection between career and ship category only exists in the Federation. The KDF is a different beast in that they don't have true science ships until T5, but two categories of DPS glasscannons.
Huh. I don't think so - they'd likely get an extra tab. Though I could see it done using the existing ship system, too. This at least would hint towards the option of customizing them like our own ships. In fact, we might be able to give our newly promoted Captains the very ships we once used ourselves! Talkin' bout a legacy.
I sure hope so!
Love that idea. That would surely be an epic battle, even if the strong PvE presence would turn it more into a sort of strategy-action-hybrid. But then again, wouldn't that make it all the more exciting and special?
My own vision would also allow Admirals to send off ships under your command to missions on their own, making them unavailable for a certain amount of time, but possibly having them return with rewards. The most obvious example would be to send a science ship into an exploration cluster, from which it'd return ~20 hours later with a bunch of anomalies you don't have to collect yourself.
I like this idea.
Edit: Here is my Version:
Adding T5's would be solely dependant on them adding T6's for Admiral and Fleet Admiral players
My only concern with DSE's is the fact that you can have quite a few people in each instance (not sure the limits), and if everyone of those players brought in 4 squadron members, if that would put a strain on bandwidth, resources or whatever causing the instance to lag or other instabilities?
I personally would have it unrestricted like players have now, though certain ships have certain bonuses that would encourage players to use that craft. For example the Olympic having +5 for Science Team 1 as it is the only real Medical ship in game, Defiant being +10% cannon weaponry.
I would like to see it as a separate Tab in your profile and not in your ship yards, so basically it would be equipped at all times. But you can switch them from the ship yard to your squadron at any time. I would also like to see it as equipping the ship with a BoFF like a component.
Now that would be awesome, similar to what they did in Assassins Creed Brotherhood, where you can send out your NPC's for a time to complete missions and you get the rewards. However if you send out every ship, you won't have any to assist you on your own missions.
Wow if this was included, the second half of the game would be vast compared to the first half. You would actually feel like you were just a crewmen with limited scope until you hit admiral.