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Open letter to dstahl.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
My english is decent at best so bare with my typos and bad phrases. And despite what it may look like, it is not a rant.

$25 for a ship, roughly the same price as most MMO's change for a fully fledged expansion pack that's been taking a year or more to make.

How can you justify a price like that for one measly item that really doesn't add anything to the gaming experience. It's just a different looking ship that does exactly the same thing as any other ship when you press spacebar.

Is the amount of subscribers in this game really that low that you cant keep the game running without charging stupid amounts of money for your "extras"?

How long does it take to make a ship like the Siege destroyer or the Galaxy-X (whose only difference from the original galaxy is an extra engine and a immovable turret at the top of the saucer) from start to finish, a week or two? Maybe a month or two for the Siege destroyer?

Again, how does that justify a pricetag of $25?

And you can not even get them with emblems, and Cryptic PROMISED us that NOTHING they added to the C-store would be C-store exclusive. That ALL items they added to it would be available through normal gameplay.

When did this change?

I can understand your prices for extra character or ship slots, respecs etc etc.

But fluff items for anywhere between $10 and up to $25?

Personally i really doubt that anyone that's playing this game is so desperate for any of the items on the C-store that they couldn't wait for them to be added in a season update for free.

The excuse you use that you have to change because its a "priority item" is just bullsh*t.

I have to congratulate you tho, no other MMO company i know of have managed to stupe so many of their subscribers into giving you even more money for something they are already paying you for with said subscription.

I mean, chances are pretty high up there that Cryptic would add all that stuff anyway, so why on earth should we pay for them when we already pay a subscription?

Ok i'm working myself up now so i'm gonna stop before i make a total mess out of it.

And again, my english is far from perfect so my phrasing probably have alot to wish for, so please read it the way i mean, not the way it sounds... ;)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    This will be a referral reward too.

    This isn't a big "moneymaker" item despite the huge mark-up. You need to be a Klingon player and you need to be high level and you need to be interested in purchasing it. Cryptic is hardly worried about making huge dividends. They would've allowed more people to purchase it (and purchase it earlier too). Instead, it's priced high and marketed toward a very small portion of the population.

    It's an item appealing to the smallest of small minorities in the STO community: 1) KDF players, 2) High-level KDF players, 3) High level KDF players with cash lying around to toss at $25 ships.

    The price is set that way not because Cryptic "needs" it to make money (they're already making plenty off Fed-side sparkle ponies) but because they want to maintain that exclusivity that the referral Reward will offer.

    EDIT: sorry I typed "veteran" when I meant referral.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I can see where this is going. *follows trail of bread crumbs*:D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I agree. $25 for a ship is a bit steep and borderline offensive. Understandable in a F2P system. But not when ppl are paying monthly fees. All ships should be 100% in game obtainable. No referal program. But worked towards. With an option to buy if you just don't have the time.
    Again if this was F2P that'd be different.

    And the argument that we've been getting all these great updates over the past year for free will only be valid IMHO when the game is actualy a fully finished game. Klingons up to par with Feds/revamped exploration sectors/ fixed ground combat/complete fdc mission set.

    All the amazing things that the devs have done over the past year is super super awesome. Don't get me wrong. I bow to them and thier efforts. Everyone deserves a pat on the back. But in reality as awesome as these things are these are simply things that are "finishing the game". Things, as awesome as they are, that should never be considered "extra free perks". We've been paying for an unfinished game since launch. I feel it is owed to us that they continue to finish the game. After that is done. I'll gladly pay $15-$25 bucks a season for future "content". But I'd still not pay $25 for one ship. Unless it's goes F2P.

    I paid $50 for the game last year. So aprently I might have only received 2 ship models for my purchase. $25 and up is what I'd expect to pay for an expansion(on a finished game). For actualy content. Whole sectors with missions and stuff. Not for one ship. No matter how awesome it is.

    Example: The Foundry is something more then I'd have expected at launch. I'd pay or the foundry. The foundry something I could see not only being in the c-store but belonging there. The Garumba, Galaxy X, or any other ship should never be there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Thorgald wrote: »
    And you can not even get them with emblems, and Cryptic PROMISED us that NOTHING they added to the C-store would be C-store exclusive. That ALL items they added to it would be available through normal gameplay.

    When did this change?

    I think it changed about 5 seconds after Atari heard about that promise. More likely, it was always going to be this way, but cryptic either promised something they knew they couldn't deliver (unlikely) or they didn't know that they wouldn't be able to deliver.


    p.s.
    Your English is better than some native speakers I know.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Thorgald wrote: »
    How can you justify a price like that for one measly item that really doesn't add anything to the gaming experience. It's just a different looking ship that does exactly the same thing as any other ship when you press spacebar.

    Okay, read what you wrote and then ask yourself... "Why am I upset?"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Okay, read what you wrote and then ask yourself... "Why am I upset?"

    I was about to reply to that too. If it doesn't add anything, why do you want it so badly?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Okay, read what you wrote and then ask yourself... "Why am I upset?"

    HInt: He was downplaying the value of the good as a rhetorical device to persuade Cryptic to downgrade its pricing. People do it all the time. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Pikoy wrote:
    I agree. $25 for a ship is a bit steep and borderline offensive. Understandable in a F2P system. But not when ppl are paying monthly fees. All ships should be 100% in game obtainable. No referal program. But worked towards. With an option to buy if you just don't have the time.
    Again if this was F2P that'd be different.

    And the argument that we've been getting all these great updates over the past year for free will only be valid IMHO when the game is actualy a fully finished game. Klingons up to par with Feds/revamped exploration sectors/ fixed ground combat/complete fdc mission set.

    All the amazing things that the devs have done over the past year is super super awesome. Don't get me wrong. I bow to them and thier efforts. Everyone deserves a pat on the back. But in reality as awesome as these things are these are simply things that are "finishing the game". Things, as awesome as they are, that should never be considered "extra free perks". We've been paying for an unfinished game since launch. I feel it is owed to us that they continue to finish the game. After that is done. I'll gladly pay $15-$25 bucks a season for future "content". But I'd still not pay $25 for one ship. Unless it's goes F2P.

    I paid $50 for the game last year. So aprently I might have only received 2 ship models for my purchase. $25 and up is what I'd expect to pay for an expansion(on a finished game). For actualy content. Whole sectors with missions and stuff. Not for one ship. No matter how awesome it is.

    Example: The Foundry is something more then I'd have expected at launch. I'd pay or the foundry. The foundry something I could see not only being in the c-store but belonging there. The Garumba, Galaxy X, or any other ship should never be there.
    This pretty much sums up how i feel about STO, too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    HInt: He was downplaying the value of the good as a rhetorical device to persuade Cryptic to downgrade its pricing. People do it all the time. :)

    Darren, I am running out of cookies for you. Keep pumping the grey matter muscle and I will have to start giving you erasers or something.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    HInt: He was downplaying the value of the good as a rhetorical device to persuade Cryptic to downgrade its pricing. People do it all the time. :)

    That doesn't change the fact it's a stupid argument. He either wants the siege destroyer, which means it must add something to the experience, or he doesn't want it. in which case his whole post is irrelevant as he wouldn't pay any price for it anyway. He doesn't even want them to downgrade the pricing, he wants it available free ingame.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    That doesn't change the fact it's a stupid argument. He either wants the siege destroyer, which means it must add something to the experience, or he doesn't want it. in which case his whole post is irrelevant as he wouldn't pay any price for it anyway. He doesn't even want them to downgrade the pricing, he wants it available free ingame.
    I'm not saying I agree; I'm just stating why he was playing the "it doesn't do much, why not give it to me for cheap?" card.

    He downplayed his/her interest to snag the desired good/service for less. People do this in markets, with day laborers, and with people they date.

    It's argumentation: it's not about convincing or deontology, it's about achieving an ends.

    (=| A scene from "Thank You for Smoking" explaining this concept |=)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Just so you all know, the Dreadnaught is NOT a ship skin. It has its own abilities (the Phaser Lance, just to name one) and they are more powerful than most ships in the game. Try doing a little research before you go off on it not adding anything to the gaming experience.... :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Just so you all know, the Dreadnaught is NOT a ship skin. It has its own abilities (the Phaser Lance, just to name one) and they are more powerful than most ships in the game. Try doing a little research before you go off on it not adding anything to the gaming experience.... :rolleyes:
    He wasn't saying it because it was true. See long video link in my post above yours. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I am not sure whether it is up to Dstahl to decide, what goes into the C-Store and what does not, since he was stating that in his opinion items affecting game mechanics should not be exclusive C-Store items, if i recall correctly.

    Lukily the one who makes these decisions seems not to know much about what makes a ship effective (just look at Galaxy X).

    But certain items like the Excelsior retrofit or the red matter capacitor certainly show a "pay to win" tendency, which is qustionable for a MMORPG with subscription fee.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    to be fair, and no this doesn't change that $25 is quite a bit, this ship is technically available in game without the C-store. or at least it was originally.

    you could get it for free by referring 4 (maybe it was 5) friends to the game. it was meant to be a super premium reward for referrals, but after they found out people were going out an buying 4 copies of the game just to get the ship, they added it to the C-store to keep people from blowing at the time close to $200 on just one ship.

    now from a business standpoint if people were already willing to drop 2 bills then $25 is a bargin. also, when you consider that the Galaxy-X is maybe the most prevalent of all C-Store ships in the game currently, where is the incentive to lower the price?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Didn't people complain that the Referral Reward was only for Fed players and that it should include a Klingon option too?

    I swore I remember disenfranchised players crying foul for no Referral Reward for their KDF mains. Looks like it's eventually coming but I doubt this was the intended result (similarly, they were arguing for general parity, not necessarily another C-Store/Referral fiasco).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I agree with the OP, it's very disapointing to see this unfold.

    The mere fact that there are so many threads about this point to it being a bad decision.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Astropath wrote:
    I agree with the OP, it's very disapointing to see this unfold.

    The mere fact that there are so many threads about this point to it being a bad decision.

    Rather, that there are so many threads about this points out how we have a bunch of people unhappy with the decision. It being a bad decision is predicated on it being unprofitable, and we'll never see those numbers.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    personally Ive always felt the "pay to win" mentality only effects hardcore PVP'ers since you could use practically any ship in your tier and do just fine in the regular game. that's just my opinion though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Astropath wrote:
    I agree with the OP, it's very disapointing to see this unfold.

    The mere fact that there are so many threads about this point to it being a bad decision.

    or maybe it just points to the fact that you also made a thread about this.

    Just bustin' your chops :) , everyone has a right to feel how they feel.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Don't buy it. It's that simple. I've boycotted the c-store from day one, except when I got some free points for taking the survey. Just say NO. C-store is insulting to begin with, although I might buy something if STO went F2P.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    This will be a referral reward too..

    Correct me if I'm wrong but last we heard StormShade was only trying to accomplish this. And it was not part of the plan. This is something one employee has tried to achieve after seeing the reaction that people on the boards have had, and was in fact flying the face of the company plan. And again, last I heard he was still just attempting to have this happen.
    That doesn't change the fact it's a stupid argument. He either wants the siege destroyer, which means it must add something to the experience, or he doesn't want it. in which case his whole post is irrelevant as he wouldn't pay any price for it anyway. He doesn't even want them to downgrade the pricing, he wants it available free ingame.

    Or maybe he wants to ensure that the next five or six ships released (that he may want) aren't also C-Store exclusive and overpriced. It could entirely be that he's objecting to the event because it's precedent (and not the first).

    Also, just because something doesn't do much doesn't mean you don't want it. A pack of chewing gum isn't a multi-functional tool of infinite usefulness and adaptability but that doesn't mean that I don't want to occasionally chem some gum, nor that I think ten bucks for a pack is reasonable and I can (rightfully) object to that pricing.

    And as far as it being a bad argument, well Hell...
    StormShade wrote:
    Neither of these ships is significantly more powerful than any ship which can be earned in-game. In fact, most players have said that the Gal-X is actually weaker than many other ships in the game. While the consensus so far is that the Naussicaan Siege Ship is pretty cool, I have not heard anything about it being more powerful.

    It remains that players do not need to purchase anything from the C-store in order to be able to play the game, and be very competitive at doing so. [emphasis mine]

    Thanks,

    Stormshade

    Source

    StormShade's already been downplaying the Garumba as an excuse for why it can be in the C-Store, does that Cryptic doesn't want you to buy it? No, but it shows him using the exact same tactic. There's a saying about geese and ganders that ultimately boils down to turnabout being fair play (which is also a saying, and it is for a reason).

    And of course StormShade's argument also (particularly the bolded part) seems to suggest that as long as you have basic functionality and nothing in the C-Store that can absolutely WTF curbstomp then it's all fine and we needn't expect anything else for our subscriptions. And that right there seems like an excellent reason to start objecting now in the hopes that they get the message and do less of this TRIBBLE later.

    The more abuse you're willing to take, the more people are apt to give you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Man I don't want to be flagged! I should leave this topic alone...... But heck let's c if I can respond without getting in trouble

    I am gonna tell you a secret. Don't tell anyone ok:)
    I am a photographer. I have had a studio going on over 10 years. Now here is a secret;). My average wedding package is 3350.00. It cost me $$ about 350.00 to make it. As in album, prints frame. I do about 30 of those packages a year. Why do I charge so much? Because of rent, mall displays, trade shows, 3 kids "one that I only went to 3 of his soccer games because of the weddings on Saturday!". But really I charge so much because I can! I can charge 3350 for a wedding! I can charge 650 for a high school senior package! Why? Because people buy it. If less did then I would have to rethink the price. I like money! I am on my way to Florida now with my family to spend new years bc of my prices.

    There are a lot of Galaxy x"s out there. I have seen them. So people are buying them. Who are you to tell cryptic that they should not sale them. Oh wait you can tell them! By not buying it. If people did not then it would go lower Look I don't want to sound like a.. Word for donkey is TRIBBLE but it really burns me when I hear people say this sucks and since I don't like it no one else should & it should disappear faster than Q.

    Crptic has a lot more overhead than me. That $25 is not as much as you think it is. With all the business I do all I can afford to drive is my 5 year old Honda;). No cadies for me. But I do have a galaxy x in the dock as well;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    JT_Marsh wrote:
    Crptic has a lot more overhead than me. That $25 is not as much as you think it is. With all the business I do all I can afford to drive is my 5 year old Honda;). No cadies for me. But I do have a galaxy x in the dock as well;)

    *nudge* Nobody rich drives a 'caddy' anymore. Failsauce with a dragging bumper package.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Fine I dont drive a land rover lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    JT_Marsh wrote:
    Fine I dont drive a land rover lol

    *flail* Bimmer! or at least Mercades, something from Bavaria.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Capulet wrote: »
    *flail* Bimmer! or at least Mercades, something from Bavaria.

    Well whatever they have as a SUV I can't afford. I drive pilot;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Thorgald wrote: »
    My english is decent at best so bare with my typos and bad phrases. And despite what it may look like, it is not a rant.

    $25 for a ship, roughly the same price as most MMO's change for a fully fledged expansion pack that's been taking a year or more to make.

    How can you justify a price like that for one measly item that really doesn't add anything to the gaming experience. It's just a different looking ship that does exactly the same thing as any other ship when you press spacebar.

    Is the amount of subscribers in this game really that low that you cant keep the game running without charging stupid amounts of money for your "extras"?

    How long does it take to make a ship like the Siege destroyer or the Galaxy-X (whose only difference from the original galaxy is an extra engine and a immovable turret at the top of the saucer) from start to finish, a week or two? Maybe a month or two for the Siege destroyer?

    Again, how does that justify a pricetag of $25?

    And you can not even get them with emblems, and Cryptic PROMISED us that NOTHING they added to the C-store would be C-store exclusive. That ALL items they added to it would be available through normal gameplay.

    When did this change?

    I can understand your prices for extra character or ship slots, respecs etc etc.

    But fluff items for anywhere between $10 and up to $25?

    Personally i really doubt that anyone that's playing this game is so desperate for any of the items on the C-store that they couldn't wait for them to be added in a season update for free.

    The excuse you use that you have to change because its a "priority item" is just bullsh*t.

    I have to congratulate you tho, no other MMO company i know of have managed to stupe so many of their subscribers into giving you even more money for something they are already paying you for with said subscription.

    I mean, chances are pretty high up there that Cryptic would add all that stuff anyway, so why on earth should we pay for them when we already pay a subscription?

    Ok i'm working myself up now so i'm gonna stop before i make a total mess out of it.

    And again, my english is far from perfect so my phrasing probably have alot to wish for, so please read it the way i mean, not the way it sounds... ;)

    I think you make very valid points. I would suggest holding fast to your feelings on this issue and voting with your pocketbook. Refuse to buy anything from the C-Store. Also, I would strongly suggest that while this is still on your mind and fresh, that you hop to gaming review sites and share you views with others, so they can be made aware.

    Best wishes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Wel, I see this thread ending badly.

    Not because its a bad argument or anything. Just because its been stated. Over and over again. People will still buy it at $22 a pop so it isn't going to change. Both camps in this debate have equally good arguments and no one is willing to change their positions based on the other sides argument. That is the recipe for what will slowly devolve into a flame war.

    Luckily, some of us like fire.

    Fire and apples.......

    <
    holds hands close to monitor in order to be ready to warm them when the flamin starts......
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    boglejam wrote: »
    Wel, I see this thread ending badly.

    Not because its a bad argument or anything. Just because its been stated. Over and over again. People will still buy it at $22 a pop so it isn't going to change. Both camps in this debate have equally good arguments and no one is willing to change their positions based on the other sides argument. That is the recipe for what will slowly devolve into a flame war.

    Luckily, some of us like fire.

    Fire and apples.......

    <
    holds hands close to monitor in order to be ready to warm them when the flamin starts......

    ooh marshmellows!
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