The Federation is at war on 5 fronts. The Klingons, the True Way, part of the Romulan Empire, the Borg, & the Undine.
That's virtually every major player in the Galaxy at the moment.
There's only three major powers that seem to be be taking any route other than direct confrontation with the Federation, the Breen, who instead have chosen to bully the Defari, the Tholians, whose actions have yet to be seen, and the Dominion, who have sat in the Gamma Quadrant on the other side of the Bajoran Wormhole & stayed out of the Alpha Quadrant affairs.
I think it's about time the Dominion became a major player in the Alpha Quadrant again, this time, as allies. I know, I know.. :eek: The Federation, allies with the Dominion? It's seems unthinkable.
In these times, the Federation needs an ally. And the Founders have had plenty of time to realize how genuine the offer of co-existence and peace made by the Federation was.
The True Way is allied with those Jem'Hadar who were left in the Alpha Quadrant after the Dominion war. Getting those Jem'Hadar back under the control of the Founders would reduce the strain on the Detapa Council in charge of Cardassia, and possibly allow them to contribute to the war effort, either with supplies, or as a safe haven to treat the wounded and repair damaged ships. There could be similar facilities in the Gamma Quadrant, courtesy of the Dominion. Remember, the treaty that ended the Dominion War also prevents the Cardassians from fielding a real military, and the CDF is no war-fighting force.
Cutting the True way off at the knees and gaining an ally in the war is only part of the benefit, with the Dominion comes the Gamma Quadrant, and all the exploration zones & episodic content locales we could ask for.
Think back to the days of TOS, or TNG, and all those episodes with new species, new encounters, legal wranglings, misunderstandings, naturally occurring troublesome anomalies & just plain strange occurrences. That can be the stuff of new episodes again, if we have an entire Quadrant to explore.
I like the idea, however I do see a problem if I understood correctly.
The True Way is made up of Alpha Jem'Hadar, rebellious Cardassians, and renegade Changelings. The Alpha Jem'Hadar won't return to the Dominion because they follow the orders of the renegade Changelings. The rebellious Cardassians will stay allied with them.
Essentially the True Way stays as it is, the Dominion comes back as allies of the Federation. The Gamma Quadrant is now opened up for exploration and new missions.
I like the idea, however I do see a problem if I understood correctly.
The True Way is made up of Alpha Jem'Hadar, rebellious Cardassians, and renegade Changelings. The Alpha Jem'Hadar won't return to the Dominion because they follow the orders of the renegade Changelings. The rebellious Cardassians will stay allied with them.
Essentially the True Way stays as it is, the Dominion comes back as allies of the Federation. The Gamma Quadrant is now opened up for exploration and new missions.
Won't the Changeling's in the Gamma Quad. want to try to bring the Renegade Changeling's back into the fold?
The True Way is made up of Alpha Jem'Hadar, rebellious Cardassians, and renegade Changelings. The Alpha Jem'Hadar won't return to the Dominion because they follow the orders of the renegade Changelings. The rebellious Cardassians will stay allied with them.
You're thinking of that mission with the pool of Changelings and the Jem'Hadar hatchery, aren't you?
I thought it was decidedly expressed that it was one renegade changeling, that the rest wanted nothing more than to be left alone? And that the Jem'Hadar working with the True Way were operating independently of any Founders, with their own Ketracel-White production facility?
From the background story of STO, the ones in the Gamma Quadrant have basically disowned the ones in the Alpha quadrant and cut all ties with them.
True... but if the Gamma Quad. ones are willing to become Fed Allies, then they will probably re-examine their feelings toward their Alpha Quad. bretheren.
You're thinking of that mission with the pool of Changelings and the Jem'Hadar hatchery, aren't you?
I thought it was decidedly expressed that it was one renegade changeling, that the rest wanted nothing more than to be left alone? And that the Jem'Hadar working with the True Way were operating independently of any Founders, with their own Ketracel-White production facility?
Actually I remember reading it somewhere. That mission kind of confused me a bit. From my understanding there are Jem'Hadar and Changelings in the Alpha quadrant wanting to keep the war going. I could very well be wrong, but I do remember reading something about it.
True... but if the Gamma Quad. ones are willing to become Fed Allies, then they will probably re-examine their feelings toward their Alpha Quad. bretheren.
No?
Possibly. If they did try to get the Alpha to rejoin them odds are they would go to war since the Alpha would most likely not want to join.
I very much doubt the Dominion has changed its attitude that an ally is merely a vassal to be kicked around. Does nobody remember what happened to Cardassia?
In fact, why does the True Way faction exist? How stupid do those spoonheads have to be to stick with a faction that tried to exterminate their entire race?
The true way has really bothered me and so has the hunters with the Romulans.
The Cardassians believe in Revenge and want to kill their enemies before they die. So any Jem'hadar left in the alpha quadrant would have been killed by the Cardassians. Because the Jem'hadar carried out the Founders orders of destroying the cities on Cardassia. I just don't find the True Way believable at all.
Cardassians were always portrayed as brutal, unforgiving and confrontational. I think they would executed any Cardassians that were still with the Jem'hadar at the surrender.
The hunters are thrill killing ding a lings. Who almost caused their own extinction twice. These guys aren't smart like Pakleds. The are the perfect example of Darwinism and when they showed up in Romulan space. They would have manipulated them into extinction in a matter of days. Just for the fun of it.
The threat from the Borg and the Undine at the same time would force everyone in the alpha quadrant. To align again against the Borg and Undine because they can do their own thing with Federation. They known the Federation would not interfere in their internal affairs. All they could ever be against the Borg and Undine would be drones and dead.
I very much doubt the Dominion has changed its attitude that an ally is merely a vassal to be kicked around. Does nobody remember what happened to Cardassia?
That's a good point. Although Odo did join them so his experience has become a part of all Changelings that are in the link, so there is a chance their attitudes have changed.
In fact, why does the True Way faction exist? How stupid do those spoonheads have to be to stick with a faction that tried to exterminate their entire race?
Desperate is more like it. These are Cardaassians that want the old way of life, not the new one that has been set up.
The true way has really bothered me and so has the hunters with the Romulans.
The Cardassians believe in Revenge and want to kill their enemies before they die. So any Jem'hadar left in the alpha quadrant would have been killed by the Cardassians. Because the Jem'hadar carried out the Founders orders of destroying the cities on Cardassia. I just don't find the True Way believable at all.
Cardassians were always portrayed as brutal, unforgiving and confrontational. I think they would executed any Cardassians that were still with the Jem'hadar at the surrender.
Remember these are rebels, they have gone into hiding and only appear to do attacks. Its basically what the Bajorian rebellion was doing.
The hunters are thrill killing ding a lings. Who almost caused their own extinction twice. These guys aren't smart like Pakleds. The are the perfect example of Darwinism and when they showed up in Romulan space. They would have manipulated them into extinction in a matter of days. Just for the fun of it.
They didn't just show up in Romulan space. Empress Sela got them to ally with her in order for her to have more power.
The threat from the Borg and the Undine at the same time would force everyone in the alpha quadrant. To align again against the Borg and Undine because they can do their own thing with Federation. They known the Federation would not interfere in their internal affairs. All they could ever be against the Borg and Undine would be drones and dead.
I pew pew whatever I can cause that's how I roll.
Well the Federation and Klingons do have a sort of pact when it comes to fighting against the Bord and Undine, hence them both being part of Battle Group Omega. We know the Romulans aren't the kind to easily join hands against a common foe. The Cardassians aren't alllowed to have a military at the moment, at least not a large one.
The actual fighting the Federation is engaging in is more or less on two fronts, not five.
The Romulans are not directly threatening the Federation; we have only been engaging in covert disruption of their own secret activities. The same can be said for the True Way.
The Undine are a side-note in the ongoing Borg conflict since the Borg are fighting them and us at the same time. Really the only thing we have to worry about are the Klingons and the Borg - and the Klingons are now helping us fight the Borg too.
That's a good point. Although Odo did join them so his experience has become a part of all Changelings that are in the link, so there is a chance their attitudes have changed.
Desperate is more like it. These are Cardaassians that want the old way of life, not the new one that has been set up.
Remember these are rebels, they have gone into hiding and only appear to do attacks. Its basically what the Bajorian rebellion was doing.
They didn't just show up in Romulan space. Empress Sela got them to ally with her in order for her to have more power.
The threat from the Borg and the Undine at the same time would force everyone in the alpha quadrant. To align again against the Borg and Undine because they can do their own thing with Federation. They known the Federation would not interfere in their internal affairs. All they could ever be against the Borg and Undine would be drones and dead.
I pew pew whatever I can cause that's how I roll.[/QUOTE]
They wouldn't have lived long enough to become rebels.
Sela and her family would have been executed and dishonored after she let the captain of the Federation flag ship and a unique android escape from Romulus. Her failure would have been proof that her being half human she was inferior.
They wouldn't have lived long enough to become rebels.
How do you know? Cardassia fell to the Dominion. The war ended. The new Cardassian government was put into place. Cardassians who didn't like this fled Cardassia and started the True Way. Since this is a new government and they are trying to rebuild after a long war odds are they didn't go after these people who fled.
As a matter of fact it was until a few years after the new government was put into place that the Cardassians realized ships were missing. These ships were stolen by the True Way.
Sela and her family would have been executed and dishonored after she let the captain of the Federation flag ship and a unique android escape from Romulus. Her failure would have been proof that her being half human she was inferior.
Your making an assumption though. Based on canon we don't know what happened to Sela. According to the background of STO, she wasn't executed and slowly gained power. Eventually she was exiled from the empire. After the destruction of Romulus she came back with stronger forces and took control.
I suggest reading The Needs of the Many. It does explain a lot of the background info for STO, especially the timeline at the end of the book.
There are basically five Dominion remnant factions.
The Breen are independent operatives once more.
The Cardassians are gearing up to become a Federation member world and are peaceful and democratic.
The True Way are people who want to restart the Dominion War and are basically the leftover evil Cardassians with military backing from a rogue changeling.
The New Dominion is a mostly peaceful and isolationist movement of Dominion refugees and accounts for the Dominion referenced in-game. (Although the "Dominion" we fight is actually the early form of the True Way and their actions are not sanctioned by the New Dominion.)
There is also the original Dominion from the Gamma Quadrant. They remain there and they haven't appeared yet.
The Changelings, Vorta and Jem'Hadar are split between three factions now, one of which is totally isolated, one of which is mostly isolated and friendly, and one of which is backing Cardassian terrorists.
Cardassia itself has totally embraced the Federation way of life.
Look, I did specifically title this as a counter-intuitive proposal, I know it would be unexpected, and I know it would seem out of character for both the Federation and the Dominion.
But that's why it would work! The Klingons would never expect it!
Cardassians were always portrayed as brutal, unforgiving and confrontational. I think they would executed any Cardassians that were still with the Jem'hadar at the surrender.
Alongside the Klingons, Vulcans, Ferengi, & Bajorans, the Cardassians are among the non-human species most fleshed out in the Star Trek canon, it's well established that the cruel and sadistic members of the Military were akin to the members of any military dictatorship throughout Earth history, corrupt, power-mad, decadent. That is not the same as saying their entire population is the same.
The worst of the Cardassians, Dukat, was more multi-dimensional than any other Star Trek villain, including Khan. And that's what made him so despicable, that his actions, his betrayals and opportunistic plots, were understandable given his history and his goals.
From the side of things we're accustomed to seeing, he was a tyrant & a mad man, but I'm sure that given the full story, the Romulans would think the same of Benjamin Sisko.
As to the True Way, I have to agree, their story hasn't made much sense. But, they're here, they're game-canon, and we have to deal with them. Why not deal with them in such a way as to allow for an entire Quadrant to be opened up to further content expansion?
Odo has been in the link for decades now, and the Founders have had ample time to fully examine his memories, attitudes, and experiences with Alpha Quadrant Solids, they might fully well understand that the idealism of the Federation carries through to their actions, the Khitomer Accords, the alliance with Bajor, the frequent efforts of Starfleet Officers to do the right thing regardless of personal cost..
The Federation has the opposite problem of the Klingon Empire, the Empire has a massive military budget, and so they have very few social programs at home, leading to a massive underclass of the poor, the dishonored, and the subjugated. The Federation has massive social programs, such that starvation, disease, and poverty are nigh-unheard of, but they require allies to fight any large scale war for any real length of time.
i would say that sela being half human actually gave her an advantage in novels as well as game she's portrayed as somewhat a tactical genius but at the same time a master of deception we only really saw her early in her career in TNG we have no clue how she developed beyond those 2-3 encounters picard had with her also the Tal Shiar don't recruit failures her being a member is at least sign of some level of comptence and she was a fairly high ranking one at that
The a big enough chunk of the romulan people support sela's claim to the romulan throne and perhaps that is good but at the moment sela's miss guided rage is causing the romulan empire to break at the core it's somewhat ironic that sela could very well be the best chance of peace or even an allience with the romulan star empire that the federation has had in decades
How do you know? Cardassia fell to the Dominion. The war ended. The new Cardassian government was put into place. Cardassians who didn't like this fled Cardassia and started the True Way. Since this is a new government and they are trying to rebuild after a long war odds are they didn't go after these people who fled.
As a matter of fact it was until a few years after the new government was put into place that the Cardassians realized ships were missing. These ships were stolen by the True Way.
Your making an assumption though. Based on canon we don't know what happened to Sela. According to the background of STO, she wasn't executed and slowly gained power. Eventually she was exiled from the empire. After the destruction of Romulus she came back with stronger forces and took control.
I suggest reading The Needs of the Many. It does explain a lot of the background info for STO, especially the timeline at the end of the book.
I don't like the STO story like I didn't like the J.J. Trek. At the end of the Cardassian war they rose up against the Dominion. One thing about war is winning side kills the collaborators.
You're making the same assumption she lived. The Romulan Empire was based on the Roman Empire they would have executed her or forced her to commit suicide for her failure. Sela was nothing but a failure on TNG.
The books and comics aren't canon just like STO. I don't like the story so I don't care what the book says.
I don't like the STO story like I didn't like the J.J. Trek. At the end of the Cardassian war they rose up against the Dominion. One thing about war is winning side kills the collaborators.
You're making the same assumption she lived.
Well, if you don't like the STO storyline, why are you in a storyline proposal thread? Also, STO's storyline explicitly states:
In a move that many said would never happen, the Romulan Empire formally recognizes the half Romulan Sela as Empress. Among her first decisions is the removal of the office of praetor. Empress Sela also makes it very clear that the Senate is completely subordinate to her.
So, whether you like it or not, any story in STO that deals with or is about the Romulan Star Empire has to deal with Sela.
Look, I did specifically title this as a counter-intuitive proposal, I know it would be unexpected, and I know it would seem out of character for both the Federation and the Dominion.
But that's why it would work! The Klingons would never expect it!
Alongside the Klingons, Vulcans, Ferengi, & Bajorans, the Cardassians are among the non-human species most fleshed out in the Star Trek canon, it's well established that the cruel and sadistic members of the Military were akin to the members of any military dictatorship throughout Earth history, corrupt, power-mad, decadent. That is not the same as saying their entire population is the same.
The worst of the Cardassians, Dukat, was more multi-dimensional than any other Star Trek villain, including Khan. And that's what made him so despicable, that his actions, his betrayals and opportunistic plots, were understandable given his history and his goals.
From the side of things we're accustomed to seeing, he was a tyrant & a mad man, but I'm sure that given the full story, the Romulans would think the same of Benjamin Sisko.
As to the True Way, I have to agree, their story hasn't made much sense. But, they're here, they're game-canon, and we have to deal with them. Why not deal with them in such a way as to allow for an entire Quadrant to be opened up to further content expansion?
Odo has been in the link for decades now, and the Founders have had ample time to fully examine his memories, attitudes, and experiences with Alpha Quadrant Solids, they might fully well understand that the idealism of the Federation carries through to their actions, the Khitomer Accords, the alliance with Bajor, the frequent efforts of Starfleet Officers to do the right thing regardless of personal cost..
The Federation has the opposite problem of the Klingon Empire, the Empire has a massive military budget, and so they have very few social programs at home, leading to a massive underclass of the poor, the dishonored, and the subjugated. The Federation has massive social programs, such that starvation, disease, and poverty are nigh-unheard of, but they require allies to fight any large scale war for any real length of time.
This proposal would give them that.
Garak was a mass murderer and a spy. Who killed Dominion and Cardassians who fought with the Founders.
Dumar was a mass murderer and killed his mentors child "Ziyal" for her betrail to Cardassia and also lead the up rising against the Dominion he is proof they were killing Jem'hadar . I'm sure they would have carried on in his name he was Martyred.
Ziyal was half Bajorian rasied on Bajor and by Kira awhile and sided with the federation who were killing Cardassians fighting with the Jem'hadar..
Natima Lang was hot in a fishy kind of way. She didn't like the Dominion either.
I just don't like the Cardassians siding with any Jem'hadar or Founders after the war. Doesn't make any sense.
The Federation has the opposite problem of the Klingon Empire, the Empire has a massive military budget, and so they have very few social programs at home, leading to a massive underclass of the poor, the dishonored, and the subjugated.
Wasn't the Klingon Empire's resource pool significantly and permanently crippled by the explosion of Praxis in The Undiscovered Country? I thought that the inability to survive in a sustained conflict was what led to the signing of the Khitomer Accords.
Wait. I think I just remembered the one thing every Trek writer hasn't. Huh. Whoops.
Leaves one wondering how they were able to recover to the extent we saw in Deep Space Nine.
Wasn't the Klingon Empire's resource pool significantly and permanently crippled by the explosion of Praxis in The Undiscovered Country? I thought that the inability to survive in a sustained conflict was what led to the signing of the Khitomer Accords.
As I understand it (it was mentioned in some interview somewhere with Brannon Braga) after the Khitomer Accords were signed, a massive influx of ecological specialists and weather control experts were welcomed from the Federation into the Klingon Empire, more specifically, to Qo'nos.
There, they were able to significantly mitigate the damage done to the environment by Praxis destruction, this, combined with necessary improvements to their warp reactors, have allowed the Empire to survive even with their depleted Dilithium supplies.
If you look at the scenes from Qo'nos in Enterprise, and compare them with the scenes from TNG, you can see that Qo'nos has undergone major environmental changes, however, the planet is still habitable.
Well, if you don't like the STO storyline, why are you in a storyline proposal thread? Also, STO's storyline explicitly states:
So, whether you like it or not, any story in STO that deals with or is about the Romulan Star Empire has to deal with Sela.
I am posting in a STO story line thread. To point out the problems with their story. I don't have to like it. I can express my likes and dislikes on their boards about the game.
They can always write Sela out she was just in an alternate time line. I think of her as the first version of sector space.
I am not trying to make you angry this is one of the problems in the game to me. Hunters with Romulans, Sela and Cardassians with the the Jem'hadar and founders again.
True Way Cardassians, I can understand the basic concept of wanting to go back to a more militaristic society like what they had prior to the war. But for ANY Cardassians to join with the Jem'hadar? Cardassia had nothing to gain by the continued support of the Dominion, and they KNEW in the long run it would be their demise. Hence, why it was a popular public uprising at the end of the Dominion War. That there is enough Cardassians to support the True Way in its current rendition, is so streched it's not even funny.
Maybe I could understand a Breen and Jem'hadar alliance more then I could with the Cardassians. The Breen really didn't suffer the losses like the rest of the Dominion Forces and proved to be loyal to the Dominion right up until the bitter end.(Of course until the Weekly Episodes we never really had the Breen)
Alot of the story angles I think were written just so it could "justify" us going out and pew pewing some of our favourite adversaries from the show.
Still, the overall idea has merit as a story angle down the line, and infact good grounds for alot of Foundry Stories. Of course Cryptic should consider the Gamma Quadrant as an option for advancing the STO universe.
I can accept that due to various alien psychologies, peace between factions might not be possible--its hard to negotiate when one believe their species to be the ultimate lifeform in the universe. So I find it understandable that one might not ever be able to have peace with the Dominion or the Romulans.
One of the more interesting parts I found in the David Brin's Uplift series was the idea that ambassadors were drawn from portions of the population, who were atypical in terms of psychological development as compared to the rest of their species. One ambassador from a species who are pranksters--while other species find him less than serious--by his species stand he's a dour grim and humorless fellow. Another ambassador is gruff and unfriendly--but by its species standards it's the most out going and annoyingly friendly being they have.
To swing this back around to the topic at hand, Even if the Romulans aren't ready to be all happy kitty and flowers with the Federation, I would like to see some sort of blowback on the Hobus information. The Romulan government itself or factions within it are directly responsible for the destruction of the homeworld. Like I said I don't expect them to cuddle up with the Feds but I would like some sort of reaction of of them over this.
One other thing I'd love to see is why Reunification with the Vulcans is so damned important to the Romulans. What motivates them to want to unify with them?
I am posting in a STO story line thread. To point out the problems with their story. I don't have to like it. I can express my likes and dislikes on their boards about the game.
They can always write Sela out she was just in an alternate time line. I think of her as the first version of sector space.
I am not trying to make you angry this is one of the problems in the game to me. Hunters with Romulans, Sela and Cardassians with the the Jem'Hadar and founders again.
I'm not saying you don't have the right, I'm just asking you to stay on-topic, which, btw, isn't if or what STO's back-story should have been, but rather, where it should move now. In my opinion, it should include a slightly less militaristic Dominion, mollified by 30 years of the Federation upholding their end of the Treaty, the re-absorption of the True Way Jem'Hadar into the Dominions forces, and the opening up of the Gamma Quadrant to trade & exploration.
Nowhere in my proposal did I mention any further storyline concerning the Romulans, as far as I'm concerned, that's up to Cryptic & how they want to set up the Romulans as a playable faction.
If that story involves a Romulan Military coup and the execution of Sela, then so be it, I'm not for or against it.
I'm not saying you don't have the right, I'm just asking you to stay on-topic, which, btw, isn't if or what STO's back-story should have been, but rather, where it should move now. In my opinion, it should include a slightly less militaristic Dominion, mollified by 30 years of the Federation upholding their end of the Treaty, the re-absorption of the True Way Jem'Hadar into the Dominions forces, and the opening up of the Gamma Quadrant to trade & exploration.
Nowhere in my proposal did I mention any further storyline concerning the Romulans, as far as I'm concerned, that's up to Cryptic & how they want to set up the Romulans as a playable faction.
If that story involves a Romulan Military coup and the execution of Sela, then so be it, I'm not for or against it.
Me I liked the Dominion as it was on DS9. I see the Jem'hadar drug addicted fanatic soliders still believing that the Founders are Gods. With absolute power comes absolute corruption.
I see the Founders as stewing in their own sauces in the great link over the loss of the war. Still bubbling over the disease they were giving by section 31. As proof solids can't be trusted. Even though they were given the cure by Star Fleet.
I could see them also hating the Cardassians for their betrayal being the source of their frustration. Blaming them for the loss of the war.
I could also see them wanting to destroy the worm hole.
The Cardassians believe in Revenge and want to kill their enemies before they die. So any Jem'hadar left in the alpha quadrant would have been killed by the Cardassians. Because the Jem'hadar carried out the Founders orders of destroying the cities on Cardassia. I just don't find the True Way believable at all.
Cardassians were always portrayed as brutal, unforgiving and confrontational. I think they would executed any Cardassians that were still with the Jem'hadar at the surrender.
Renegades have their own agenda and often don't hold the same views as the majority. All it would have taken is a fifth column amongst the Jem'hadar to turn against the rest when it came to the destruction of Cardassian cities, add in those Cardassians who ally with them and you have a force that becomes seperated from the rest. The Alpha Changelings too may have disagreed with the overall plan of the other Changelings which is why they were disowned.
If the ruling council on Cardassia knew that the Jem'hadar of the True Way were against the attack on their cities, wouldn't it be prudent to keep their ties, at least in part, with a military force since they are prohibited from having one themselves?
Renegades have their own agenda and often don't hold the same views as the majority. All it would have taken is a fifth column amongst the Jem'hadar to turn against the rest when it came to the destruction of Cardassian cities, add in those Cardassians who ally with them and you have a force that becomes seperated from the rest. The Alpha Changelings too may have disagreed with the overall plan of the other Changelings which is why they were disowned.
If the ruling council on Cardassia knew that the Jem'hadar of the True Way were against the attack on their cities, wouldn't it be prudent to keep their ties, at least in part, with a military force since they are prohibited from having one themselves?
The Jem'hadar in the shows were drug addicted soldiers who followed the orders of the founders blindly. They didn't believe their lives were their own and would die if ordered without question. Everyone saw them as monsters even the Federation.
All the Founders did was dominate the species that weren't changelings who thought of them as limited and weak. I don't see them as changing there mind.
The Cardassians held grudges all threw TNG and DS9. They hated the Bajorians for fighting back and leaving Bajor after they exterminated millions of them.
After the Cardassians being used as fodder. Betrayed by the Dominion who had no intention of making them equal members of the regime. Being victims of genocide then rejoin them makes no sense.
It would be like the Bajorians wanting to join the Cardassian Empire after they left Bajor.
Not that the Changelings would want to do anything to do with the Cardassians who help them lose the war.
(responding directly to the OP, haven't bothered to read the rest :P)
Personally, I like the idea, for several reaasons:
1. At the end of DS9, Odo went back to the Great Link. His experience with "solids," including his close relationship with Kira, would have positively affected the Founders. The mercy shown by the Federation would only solidify that positive direction.
2. Though not "officially canon", there is a series of books where a Jem'hadar (who apparently does not need Ketracel-white) visits DS9 for an extended period, sort of as an exchange officer. These experiences could furthere expand on improving relations. However, this one is iffy at best since it's not canon, and not in-game already.
3. The Federation has allied with former enemies before (Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, to name a few). Allying with another former enemy is not inconceivable, and noting the first point, would not be badly timed either.
So, basically...I agree with you Katic. I'm not sure of the implementation in-game, or how it would be accomplished, but I could see the benefits of an alliance with the Dominion.
The Jem'hadar in the shows were drug addicted soldiers who followed the orders of the founders blindly. They didn't believe their lives were their own and would die if ordered without question. Everyone saw them as monsters even the Federation.
All the Founders did was dominate the species that weren't changelings who thought of them as limited and weak. I don't see them as changing there mind.
The Cardassians held grudges all threw TNG and DS9. They hated the Bajorians for fighting back and leaving Bajor after they exterminated millions of them.
After the Cardassians being used as fodder. Betrayed by the Dominion who had no intention of making them equal members of the regime. Being victims of genocide then rejoin them makes no sense.
It would be like the Bajorians wanting to join the Cardassian Empire after they left Bajor.
Not that the Changelings would want to do anything to do with the Cardassians who help them lose the war.
The Cardassians are not joining the Dominion. They have set up a new government and are at peace for the most part. There are a few Cardassians who want the old style of government to exist, and they want the war to continue. Think of the psychology. They hate what Cardassia has begun, they hate that the lost, they hate that they have no place else to turn.
Their only goal in life is to bring Cardassia back to its "former glory", at least in their eyes. They can't do it alone so they align themselves with the only group who feels the war should continue... renegade Jem'Hadar. They aren't joining the Dominion in order to accomplish the task, they are joining with other rebels who have the same goal.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's the logic here.
The enemy of the rebel Cardassians is the new Cardassian government. The enemy of the Alpha Jem'Hadar is the new Cardassian government. Hence the alliance between them.
Comments
The True Way is made up of Alpha Jem'Hadar, rebellious Cardassians, and renegade Changelings. The Alpha Jem'Hadar won't return to the Dominion because they follow the orders of the renegade Changelings. The rebellious Cardassians will stay allied with them.
Essentially the True Way stays as it is, the Dominion comes back as allies of the Federation. The Gamma Quadrant is now opened up for exploration and new missions.
Won't the Changeling's in the Gamma Quad. want to try to bring the Renegade Changeling's back into the fold?
From the background story of STO, the ones in the Gamma Quadrant have basically disowned the ones in the Alpha quadrant and cut all ties with them.
You're thinking of that mission with the pool of Changelings and the Jem'Hadar hatchery, aren't you?
I thought it was decidedly expressed that it was one renegade changeling, that the rest wanted nothing more than to be left alone? And that the Jem'Hadar working with the True Way were operating independently of any Founders, with their own Ketracel-White production facility?
True... but if the Gamma Quad. ones are willing to become Fed Allies, then they will probably re-examine their feelings toward their Alpha Quad. bretheren.
No?
Actually I remember reading it somewhere. That mission kind of confused me a bit. From my understanding there are Jem'Hadar and Changelings in the Alpha quadrant wanting to keep the war going. I could very well be wrong, but I do remember reading something about it.
Possibly. If they did try to get the Alpha to rejoin them odds are they would go to war since the Alpha would most likely not want to join.
In fact, why does the True Way faction exist? How stupid do those spoonheads have to be to stick with a faction that tried to exterminate their entire race?
The Cardassians believe in Revenge and want to kill their enemies before they die. So any Jem'hadar left in the alpha quadrant would have been killed by the Cardassians. Because the Jem'hadar carried out the Founders orders of destroying the cities on Cardassia. I just don't find the True Way believable at all.
Cardassians were always portrayed as brutal, unforgiving and confrontational. I think they would executed any Cardassians that were still with the Jem'hadar at the surrender.
The hunters are thrill killing ding a lings. Who almost caused their own extinction twice. These guys aren't smart like Pakleds. The are the perfect example of Darwinism and when they showed up in Romulan space. They would have manipulated them into extinction in a matter of days. Just for the fun of it.
The threat from the Borg and the Undine at the same time would force everyone in the alpha quadrant. To align again against the Borg and Undine because they can do their own thing with Federation. They known the Federation would not interfere in their internal affairs. All they could ever be against the Borg and Undine would be drones and dead.
I pew pew whatever I can cause that's how I roll.
That's a good point. Although Odo did join them so his experience has become a part of all Changelings that are in the link, so there is a chance their attitudes have changed.
Desperate is more like it. These are Cardaassians that want the old way of life, not the new one that has been set up.
Remember these are rebels, they have gone into hiding and only appear to do attacks. Its basically what the Bajorian rebellion was doing.
They didn't just show up in Romulan space. Empress Sela got them to ally with her in order for her to have more power.
Well the Federation and Klingons do have a sort of pact when it comes to fighting against the Bord and Undine, hence them both being part of Battle Group Omega. We know the Romulans aren't the kind to easily join hands against a common foe. The Cardassians aren't alllowed to have a military at the moment, at least not a large one.
The Romulans are not directly threatening the Federation; we have only been engaging in covert disruption of their own secret activities. The same can be said for the True Way.
The Undine are a side-note in the ongoing Borg conflict since the Borg are fighting them and us at the same time. Really the only thing we have to worry about are the Klingons and the Borg - and the Klingons are now helping us fight the Borg too.
I pew pew whatever I can cause that's how I roll.[/QUOTE]
They wouldn't have lived long enough to become rebels.
Sela and her family would have been executed and dishonored after she let the captain of the Federation flag ship and a unique android escape from Romulus. Her failure would have been proof that her being half human she was inferior.
How do you know? Cardassia fell to the Dominion. The war ended. The new Cardassian government was put into place. Cardassians who didn't like this fled Cardassia and started the True Way. Since this is a new government and they are trying to rebuild after a long war odds are they didn't go after these people who fled.
As a matter of fact it was until a few years after the new government was put into place that the Cardassians realized ships were missing. These ships were stolen by the True Way.
Your making an assumption though. Based on canon we don't know what happened to Sela. According to the background of STO, she wasn't executed and slowly gained power. Eventually she was exiled from the empire. After the destruction of Romulus she came back with stronger forces and took control.
I suggest reading The Needs of the Many. It does explain a lot of the background info for STO, especially the timeline at the end of the book.
The Breen are independent operatives once more.
The Cardassians are gearing up to become a Federation member world and are peaceful and democratic.
The True Way are people who want to restart the Dominion War and are basically the leftover evil Cardassians with military backing from a rogue changeling.
The New Dominion is a mostly peaceful and isolationist movement of Dominion refugees and accounts for the Dominion referenced in-game. (Although the "Dominion" we fight is actually the early form of the True Way and their actions are not sanctioned by the New Dominion.)
There is also the original Dominion from the Gamma Quadrant. They remain there and they haven't appeared yet.
The Changelings, Vorta and Jem'Hadar are split between three factions now, one of which is totally isolated, one of which is mostly isolated and friendly, and one of which is backing Cardassian terrorists.
Cardassia itself has totally embraced the Federation way of life.
And the Breen are off being Breen again.
But that's why it would work! The Klingons would never expect it!
That's how many Cardassians were portrayed, not all., Remember Ziyal? Garak? Ghemor? Natima Lang? Damar?
Alongside the Klingons, Vulcans, Ferengi, & Bajorans, the Cardassians are among the non-human species most fleshed out in the Star Trek canon, it's well established that the cruel and sadistic members of the Military were akin to the members of any military dictatorship throughout Earth history, corrupt, power-mad, decadent. That is not the same as saying their entire population is the same.
The worst of the Cardassians, Dukat, was more multi-dimensional than any other Star Trek villain, including Khan. And that's what made him so despicable, that his actions, his betrayals and opportunistic plots, were understandable given his history and his goals.
From the side of things we're accustomed to seeing, he was a tyrant & a mad man, but I'm sure that given the full story, the Romulans would think the same of Benjamin Sisko.
As to the True Way, I have to agree, their story hasn't made much sense. But, they're here, they're game-canon, and we have to deal with them. Why not deal with them in such a way as to allow for an entire Quadrant to be opened up to further content expansion?
Odo has been in the link for decades now, and the Founders have had ample time to fully examine his memories, attitudes, and experiences with Alpha Quadrant Solids, they might fully well understand that the idealism of the Federation carries through to their actions, the Khitomer Accords, the alliance with Bajor, the frequent efforts of Starfleet Officers to do the right thing regardless of personal cost..
The Federation has the opposite problem of the Klingon Empire, the Empire has a massive military budget, and so they have very few social programs at home, leading to a massive underclass of the poor, the dishonored, and the subjugated. The Federation has massive social programs, such that starvation, disease, and poverty are nigh-unheard of, but they require allies to fight any large scale war for any real length of time.
This proposal would give them that.
The a big enough chunk of the romulan people support sela's claim to the romulan throne and perhaps that is good but at the moment sela's miss guided rage is causing the romulan empire to break at the core it's somewhat ironic that sela could very well be the best chance of peace or even an allience with the romulan star empire that the federation has had in decades
I don't like the STO story like I didn't like the J.J. Trek. At the end of the Cardassian war they rose up against the Dominion. One thing about war is winning side kills the collaborators.
You're making the same assumption she lived. The Romulan Empire was based on the Roman Empire they would have executed her or forced her to commit suicide for her failure. Sela was nothing but a failure on TNG.
The books and comics aren't canon just like STO. I don't like the story so I don't care what the book says.
Well, if you don't like the STO storyline, why are you in a storyline proposal thread? Also, STO's storyline explicitly states:
So, whether you like it or not, any story in STO that deals with or is about the Romulan Star Empire has to deal with Sela.
Garak was a mass murderer and a spy. Who killed Dominion and Cardassians who fought with the Founders.
Dumar was a mass murderer and killed his mentors child "Ziyal" for her betrail to Cardassia and also lead the up rising against the Dominion he is proof they were killing Jem'hadar . I'm sure they would have carried on in his name he was Martyred.
Ziyal was half Bajorian rasied on Bajor and by Kira awhile and sided with the federation who were killing Cardassians fighting with the Jem'hadar..
Natima Lang was hot in a fishy kind of way. She didn't like the Dominion either.
I just don't like the Cardassians siding with any Jem'hadar or Founders after the war. Doesn't make any sense.
Wasn't the Klingon Empire's resource pool significantly and permanently crippled by the explosion of Praxis in The Undiscovered Country? I thought that the inability to survive in a sustained conflict was what led to the signing of the Khitomer Accords.
Wait. I think I just remembered the one thing every Trek writer hasn't. Huh. Whoops.
Leaves one wondering how they were able to recover to the extent we saw in Deep Space Nine.
As I understand it (it was mentioned in some interview somewhere with Brannon Braga) after the Khitomer Accords were signed, a massive influx of ecological specialists and weather control experts were welcomed from the Federation into the Klingon Empire, more specifically, to Qo'nos.
There, they were able to significantly mitigate the damage done to the environment by Praxis destruction, this, combined with necessary improvements to their warp reactors, have allowed the Empire to survive even with their depleted Dilithium supplies.
If you look at the scenes from Qo'nos in Enterprise, and compare them with the scenes from TNG, you can see that Qo'nos has undergone major environmental changes, however, the planet is still habitable.
I am posting in a STO story line thread. To point out the problems with their story. I don't have to like it. I can express my likes and dislikes on their boards about the game.
They can always write Sela out she was just in an alternate time line. I think of her as the first version of sector space.
I am not trying to make you angry this is one of the problems in the game to me. Hunters with Romulans, Sela and Cardassians with the the Jem'hadar and founders again.
Maybe I could understand a Breen and Jem'hadar alliance more then I could with the Cardassians. The Breen really didn't suffer the losses like the rest of the Dominion Forces and proved to be loyal to the Dominion right up until the bitter end.(Of course until the Weekly Episodes we never really had the Breen)
Alot of the story angles I think were written just so it could "justify" us going out and pew pewing some of our favourite adversaries from the show.
Still, the overall idea has merit as a story angle down the line, and infact good grounds for alot of Foundry Stories. Of course Cryptic should consider the Gamma Quadrant as an option for advancing the STO universe.
One of the more interesting parts I found in the David Brin's Uplift series was the idea that ambassadors were drawn from portions of the population, who were atypical in terms of psychological development as compared to the rest of their species. One ambassador from a species who are pranksters--while other species find him less than serious--by his species stand he's a dour grim and humorless fellow. Another ambassador is gruff and unfriendly--but by its species standards it's the most out going and annoyingly friendly being they have.
To swing this back around to the topic at hand, Even if the Romulans aren't ready to be all happy kitty and flowers with the Federation, I would like to see some sort of blowback on the Hobus information. The Romulan government itself or factions within it are directly responsible for the destruction of the homeworld. Like I said I don't expect them to cuddle up with the Feds but I would like some sort of reaction of of them over this.
One other thing I'd love to see is why Reunification with the Vulcans is so damned important to the Romulans. What motivates them to want to unify with them?
I'm not saying you don't have the right, I'm just asking you to stay on-topic, which, btw, isn't if or what STO's back-story should have been, but rather, where it should move now. In my opinion, it should include a slightly less militaristic Dominion, mollified by 30 years of the Federation upholding their end of the Treaty, the re-absorption of the True Way Jem'Hadar into the Dominions forces, and the opening up of the Gamma Quadrant to trade & exploration.
Nowhere in my proposal did I mention any further storyline concerning the Romulans, as far as I'm concerned, that's up to Cryptic & how they want to set up the Romulans as a playable faction.
If that story involves a Romulan Military coup and the execution of Sela, then so be it, I'm not for or against it.
Me I liked the Dominion as it was on DS9. I see the Jem'hadar drug addicted fanatic soliders still believing that the Founders are Gods. With absolute power comes absolute corruption.
I see the Founders as stewing in their own sauces in the great link over the loss of the war. Still bubbling over the disease they were giving by section 31. As proof solids can't be trusted. Even though they were given the cure by Star Fleet.
I could see them also hating the Cardassians for their betrayal being the source of their frustration. Blaming them for the loss of the war.
I could also see them wanting to destroy the worm hole.
If the ruling council on Cardassia knew that the Jem'hadar of the True Way were against the attack on their cities, wouldn't it be prudent to keep their ties, at least in part, with a military force since they are prohibited from having one themselves?
The Jem'hadar in the shows were drug addicted soldiers who followed the orders of the founders blindly. They didn't believe their lives were their own and would die if ordered without question. Everyone saw them as monsters even the Federation.
All the Founders did was dominate the species that weren't changelings who thought of them as limited and weak. I don't see them as changing there mind.
The Cardassians held grudges all threw TNG and DS9. They hated the Bajorians for fighting back and leaving Bajor after they exterminated millions of them.
After the Cardassians being used as fodder. Betrayed by the Dominion who had no intention of making them equal members of the regime. Being victims of genocide then rejoin them makes no sense.
It would be like the Bajorians wanting to join the Cardassian Empire after they left Bajor.
Not that the Changelings would want to do anything to do with the Cardassians who help them lose the war.
Personally, I like the idea, for several reaasons:
1. At the end of DS9, Odo went back to the Great Link. His experience with "solids," including his close relationship with Kira, would have positively affected the Founders. The mercy shown by the Federation would only solidify that positive direction.
2. Though not "officially canon", there is a series of books where a Jem'hadar (who apparently does not need Ketracel-white) visits DS9 for an extended period, sort of as an exchange officer. These experiences could furthere expand on improving relations. However, this one is iffy at best since it's not canon, and not in-game already.
3. The Federation has allied with former enemies before (Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, to name a few). Allying with another former enemy is not inconceivable, and noting the first point, would not be badly timed either.
So, basically...I agree with you Katic. I'm not sure of the implementation in-game, or how it would be accomplished, but I could see the benefits of an alliance with the Dominion.
The Cardassians are not joining the Dominion. They have set up a new government and are at peace for the most part. There are a few Cardassians who want the old style of government to exist, and they want the war to continue. Think of the psychology. They hate what Cardassia has begun, they hate that the lost, they hate that they have no place else to turn.
Their only goal in life is to bring Cardassia back to its "former glory", at least in their eyes. They can't do it alone so they align themselves with the only group who feels the war should continue... renegade Jem'Hadar. They aren't joining the Dominion in order to accomplish the task, they are joining with other rebels who have the same goal.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's the logic here.
The enemy of the rebel Cardassians is the new Cardassian government. The enemy of the Alpha Jem'Hadar is the new Cardassian government. Hence the alliance between them.