test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

How would you fix ground combat?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I admit that I have no idea how to fix ground combat. I don't hate it as is. But I'm also not over the moon about it either. What I'd like from this thread is for you to tell me what you feel is the fundamental problem with ground combat and how it might be improved upon.

I understand that having more intriguing ground missions is nice. Like cold comfort or spin of the wheel. But these are non combat quests. How would you improve the combat system once you engage an enemy?
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Oh I don't know.
    I miss the combat from Tabula Rasa. A bit twitch and a bit soft lock combat.
    Not sure if it would fit in this game but I did enjoy it.


    One thing I would improve or rather remove is 2+ medic in an enemy group.
    1 I can handle but 2 is a chore and 2+ with them chain rezzing each other I don't think so...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Chat wrote:
    Oh
    One thing I would improve or rather remove is 2+ medic in an enemy group.
    1 I can handle but 2 is a chore and 2+ with them chain rezzing each other I don't think so...

    Omg I agree. This happened to me as well. I had my whole away team focusing on this one medic and could barely even put a dent in his health.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Pikoy wrote:
    Omg I agree. This happened to me as well. I had my whole away team focusing on this one medic and could barely even put a dent in his health.
    I hate having to spam riflebutt to keep a medic from interfering with the medic me away team is shooting at.
    Kinda kills my fun atm since I recently started the Romulan arc. *gag*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I think the real problem with ground combat is that more abilities are needed. With a kit a VA you're still limited to like 7 or so abilities. Many of the abilities should be like high damage bursts, etc. Seems like there isn't much of that. Mostly just interrupts and roots, etc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    One mechanic I would like to see change is this: when 2 or 3 of the enemy converge on the commanding officer (me), my BO's should gang up on them.

    Honestly, everytime a group of Borg or whatever converge around me and start rooting or camping on me, my BOs are usually 15m away.

    There is a button to fire on my target, there should be a "Protect the Leader" feature as well. Seems like a major oversight in my opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    How does everyone feel about how long it takes to take an enemy down? 3-4 sometimes more hits once shields are down to kill an enemy unless of course it's exposed.

    Do you think ground combat takes to long?
    Should Shields not be as powerful? Or maybe once shields are
    Drained 1-2 shots kills the enemy?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Zehra wrote:
    I think the real problem with ground combat is that more abilities are needed. With a kit a VA you're still limited to like 7 or so abilities. Many of the abilities should be like high damage bursts, etc. Seems like there isn't much of that. Mostly just interrupts and roots, etc.

    Agreed, the Elite NPCs can kill a VA with 2 or 3 shots. So why isn't there a VA kit option that does the same? They could give it a high cool down rate, but there really isn't a lot of balance between players and NPCs in the ground missions at the VA level.

    Space combat is much more balanced and seems to be where the Devs have spent the most time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Agreed, the Elite NPCs can kill a VA with 2 or 3 shots. So why isn't there a VA kit option that does the same? They could give it a high cool down rate, but there really isn't a lot of balance between players and NPCs in the ground missions at the VA level.

    Space combat is much more balanced and seems to be where the Devs have spent the most time.

    I can see that.

    So. I enjoy space combat. It's a slower paced battle. Wear the shields down. Then the hull. Then back to shields untill you eventually destroy the enemy ship. That works well for space.

    For me it seems like it's the same for ground. As if the engine still thinks your characters and the npc's are ships. The engamets seem to take just as long. Again I like that pace for space. But for ground I want things sped up a bit.

    Edit: It should not take just as long to kill a humanoid NPC as it did to destroy his ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Duuuuude. See my Ground Combat/Immersion thread ... /facepalm
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    far as ground what i have seen in PVE that is about abilities. I think these don't apply right to targets except for the very high end TAC ones.

    Take for instance my Science VA Tricorder 3, I forget the name of the ability but there is also globe that they can use that if the target is in it gets a damage resists. so some decent debuffs right there but damage numbers on the target never change. Now i know in PVP if a i get debuffed i get hit harder.

    so maybe some debuffs are not working correctly in PVE? TAC ones seem to when they stack a bunch but maybe that is something to look at.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Nikahn wrote:
    Duuuuude. See my Ground Combat/Immersion thread ... /facepalm

    Yeap. I saw it. Nice thread. People seem to be dusussing your point of view nicely. Also I think you have some great points. However, It's my hope, that this thread will encourage others to give thier own ideas on how to fix ground combat. Feel free to link your thread in this one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Ground combat is getting an overhaul for release with season 4.

    link: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=182989&highlight=ground+combat&page=2
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    SP3CTREnyc wrote:
    Ground combat is getting an overhaul for release with season 4.

    link: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=182989&highlight=ground+combat&page=2

    Did I read that right? These changes were supposed to be included in the launch of S3? Although that was posted back in Oct.

    I'm aware if the S4 overhaul. Kinda why I started this thread. I always hear people complaining about hating ground combat. Just wanted to know why from their perspective.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    In short, there should be a better balance between players and NPCs. Our BOs should have less power than us, but we should be at least equal to the Elite NPCs. Period.

    I know I have said this before, but is seems crazy that a Captain level NPC can 1 or 2 shoot a Vice Admiral. Yet it can take said Vice Admiral 20 to 25 shots to kill that same Captain level NPC. Maybe my glasses are failing me, but I don't see a lot of balance there...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Well, i dont really have an idea... but ^^

    first i would fix the "dynamic lightning crash" many if not all ati users experience in ground combat.

    The second thing is the skilltree!
    Yes, i will be flamed.. who cares.
    They need to separate the ground from the space tree.
    Nearly all or at least many people just dont skill anything in ground and i understand why.
    Space is the cool and fun thing in sto, while ground is just m
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I really enjoy ground PvP. As far as that goes, ground is fine.

    The problem many people have is that the balance between crazy two pistol elite NPCs and us. Just tweak the difficulty/hp/whatever for elite NPCs, and many people would be happy.

    Me? I'm happy with a 10 turret, 4 eng BO set up. Kills even the hardiest of elite Swordsmasters in a flash. But I suspect most people don't want to be forced into that sort of build...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    My opinion is not the how ground combat is for say but how our equipment and weapons function.

    There is not really a star trek feel to the weapons or equipment. It becomes more obvious as you are fighting Borg, the phasers and disruptors should be tunable.

    The ground weapons should have different settings providing varied perks, debuffs or damage depending on the setting, trading off recharge time for the higher power settings.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    In short, there should be a better balance between players and NPCs. Our BOs should have less power than us, but we should be at least equal to the Elite NPCs. Period.

    I know I have said this before, but is seems crazy that a Captain level NPC can 1 or 2 shoot a Vice Admiral. Yet it can take said Vice Admiral 20 to 25 shots to kill that same Captain level NPC. Maybe my glasses are failing me, but I don't see a lot of balance there...

    QFT. I agree. I love the concept of the difficulty slider. But there are definatly still NPCs who are pooy balanced.
    Glimni wrote:
    Well, i dont really have an idea... but ^^

    first i would fix the "dynamic lightning crash" many if not all ati users experience in ground combat.

    The second thing is the skilltree!
    Yes, i will be flamed.. who cares.
    They need to separate the ground from the space tree.
    Nearly all or at least many people just dont skill anything in ground and i understand why.
    Space is the cool and fun thing in sto, while ground is just m
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Take two science officers tachyon harmonics one and two. It will expose enemies a lot knock them down sometimes and reduce their shields 40%.

    I think a permanent set of cross hairs with third person view and allowing you to fire your weapon at any time. Would fix most if not all targeting problems along with tab targeting.

    In large groups like DS9 under siege it was almost impossible to get the target you wanted sometimes. With tab and trying to mouse select.

    I think better line of sight would help ground combat a lot. Taking fire through walls after you run away stinks.

    Make a option to cut off the look spring and never make my character turn to face my target in crouch mode.

    Also add a prone firing stance with the ability to crawl .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Capulet wrote: »
    My opinion is not the how ground combat is for say but how our equipment and weapons function.

    There is not really a star trek feel to the weapons or equipment. It becomes more obvious as you are fighting Borg, the phasers and disruptors should be tunable.

    The ground weapons should have different settings providing varied perks, debuffs or damage depending on the setting, trading off recharge time for the higher power settings.

    Not sure if this is what you meant. But if so I agree, having a stun setting would be nice. An option to complete a quest without killing. Gives a bonus to diplomacy kinda thing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Pikoy wrote:
    Not sure if this is what you meant. But if so I agree, having a stun setting would be nice. An option to complete a quest without killing. Gives a bonus to diplomacy kinda thing.

    How would you make it work? Just a manual aim with no target lock?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Englebert wrote:
    How would you make it work? Just a manual aim with no target lock?

    To be honest, I'm nit sure the best way to do that.

    A manual aim system would be interesting. Although I move 100% with my mouse. So I suppose it'd take some getting used too.

    Just seems in Trek shows they normally choose to stun rather then kill. KDF would be a different story.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Pikoy wrote:
    Not sure if this is what you meant. But if so I agree, having a stun setting would be nice. An option to complete a quest without killing. Gives a bonus to diplomacy kinda thing.
    Englebert wrote:
    How would you make it work? Just a manual aim with no target lock?

    No, not like a FPS setup. More like different power settings on the weapon create chances of things like debilitating (debuff) disarming (weapon malf) and even vaporizing/stun ect. Changing the power settings would change the chances of these things as well as the recharge time before you can fire again. Think the phaser in Elite Force.

    Also a cover bonus would be nice for things like rocks and buildings. As was said before, running around a corner and getting shot through the wall isn't right.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Capulet wrote: »
    No, not like a FPS setup. More like different power settings on the weapon create chances of things like debilitating (debuff) disarming (weapon malf) and even vaporizing. Changing the power settings would change the chances of these things as well as the recharge time before you can fire again. Think the phaser in Elite Force.

    I agree that fighting the Borg becomes a bit tedious and, like other parts of STO, automated. But putting in a "Rotate Weapon Frequency" mini-game would make maps like Cure and KA nigh impossible. It's already frustrating - for separate reasons - when you have to throw plasma grenades or take a bat'leth to an elite tac drone because it "adapted" to your team's weapons.
    Also a cover bonus would be nice for things like rocks and buildings. As was said before, running around a corner and getting shot through the wall isn't right.

    dstahl mentioned a cover system would be implemented in the ground update
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    SP3CTREnyc wrote:
    I agree that fighting the Borg becomes a bit tedious and, like other parts of STO, automated. But putting in a "Rotate Weapon Frequency" mini-game would make maps like Cure and KA nigh impossible. It's already frustrating - for separate reasons - when you have to throw plasma grenades or take a bat'leth to an elite tac drone because it "adapted" to your team's weapons.



    dstahl mentioned a cover system would be implemented in the ground update

    Not a mini game. 2 key binds should do it. One for a incrementally higher power settings, one to lower it incrementally. Easy enough? Yet will change the way you look upon and use a star trek staple like a hand phaser or phaser rifle.

    In the case of the borg, if you change the power setting slightly you get another two or three shots before it adapts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    The only real problem I have had with ground combat is content issues and the way opposing forces are often just standing around or wondering aimlessly.

    The thing that has been hardest to adjust to with ground combat is that even though you have a character that can participate in it, that your primary function as captain and therefore leader of the away team is as a command and control. Not so much with easy mobs, but it becomes critical on advanced and elite with some of the more difficult opponents.

    I think it would help if instead of the captian doing everything, that you ordered crew members to do sensor sweeps.

    Sometimes I find myself forgetting that I am the guy in charge, a leader instead of just another grunt on the ground. I will rip through a few easy mobs, and do all these sensor readings etc, then bam some big nasty wipes my entire team out. Then I actually have to regroup and think about how I am positioning and using my members of my away team. I think if I was having to use my away team more often like that it wouldn't come as such a shock when I have to.

    Jus last night I had a big bad that kept homing in on me and ignoring the rest of the crew, kept slicing us to ribbons, taken most of my team out with single swipes, and I could only survive 2, and the dude could take all the pounding I and my team could dish, including the 4 security escorts I called in. My roving target stood up fairly well, always the last to succomb, but he always eventuall fell as well.

    I finally figured out that I needed to send my roving target running past the SOB, and when he was attacked , nail the him from behind with everything we had. It was diffgicult but once I realized it was something that could be accomplished, I did enjoy it. I just wish more of the encounters required more thought, so that I would be more in that habbit, than just running blindly in like I usually do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    has Melee only BO's been fixed yet to where they just don't stand there?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    trammzzz wrote:
    has Melee only BO's been fixed yet to where they just don't stand there?

    Not sure. But as a Klingon. I'd love the ability to train either as a sword master or targ handler(would go nicely with the upcoming targ breeding mini game).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Ah yes, Ground Combat. I'm not a proponent of "throwing the baby out with the bath water". There are elements of the ground combat that should continue to be kept in the game.

    Like:
    Flanking bonuses
    The ability to position your BOFs
    BOFs able to use abilities on their own, or restrict them.
    Alot of the abilities that the BOFFS have

    But I think Cryptic has some serious questions and work ahead of them.

    Lets star off,

    The Camera and Movement System

    I'm sure most of us that have been playing STO since it launched have "figured" out the camera, and/or tweaked it into a somewhat functional system.

    But let's be realistic, to a new user its a FIASCO! I look at the camera system and think someone must have been trying to design a FPS/Baldur's Gate hybrid.

    The camera pans out at a pretty good distance, and the default setting, your camera remains relatively stationary. You can achieve a Crow's Eye View and control your away team pretty strategically. The BOFFS function pretty much like a companion in Baldurs gate combat, click them here, attack that, assist so and so, and generally do an okay job. The problem is, your avatar totally works different, you see in Baldurs' Gate, its a point and click movement system. STO tries to be a FPS but that flies in the face of your BOFF controls. This is the root of confusion for a new player. They soon realize(or don't) that the WASD keys become dynamic based on where their avatar is facing as opposed to the camera.

    Initially, you setup your camera to "control" the battlefield from a strategic perspecitive, but then your avatar movement turns into an FPS, so you have to switch your camera to a fps view to control your movement, but now you don't have the strategic control and....blah blah blah...see where I'm going with this. Yes, you can learn the combat system, but it is not very intuitive from the beginning. BAD design in any mmo!

    Cryptic needs to figure out, is ground combat one or the other(FPS or Crow's View), then base their movement system for that one system.

    Enemy Abilities and Cool Down

    Nothing irks players more then enemy AI that SPAMS abilities. Take for example, every enemy Medic can spam heals, hence when there is two medics in a group it's nearly impossible (albiet) LONG killing them which = BORING! Plus enemy medics can rez a VAPORIZED enemy!

    Not to mention, you give players counters to certain enemy abilities, but the cool downs for the enemy are so short they just reuse the ability you countered. Example, Tachyon Harmonics to blow up a shield generator, which the enemy just plops another one down after it got blown up. Or the dreaded Cardassian Holo Emitters/ Plasma Grenade spam. (ever wonder why everyone despises that Fleet action?)

    Immunity Timers!
    There was a game, were in combat you spent most of the time staring at your screen as your avatar swayed like a willow tree in a gentle breeze with a bunch of Zzzzz's coming from their head. Players then realized that, they were infact spending most of their time, watching a stunned mezzed character waiting their turn to die. Players do not pay to play a game where they spend more time not having control of their character then they do. (STF's are brutal for this). Either give players counters they can put on each other, or put in serious immunity timers.

    Players like to pull one over on the enemy AI using strategy, This includes, flanking, using the right weapons and timing abilities. but if you counter strategy, you just aggravate players.

    and finally,

    GET RID OF THE BUGS
    There have been a slew of known bugs since launch that continue to exist in the game

    Single Shot MOBs
    Terrain where you beam down and your away team is under it
    Anomolous readings buried under ground
    NPC's not spawning for Confrontation missions
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Small improvements: 1. make shield recovery/maintainence a skill instead of a battery; 2. cover (already mentioned); 3. more liberal training training opportunities for ground skills (they are much less technologically dependant and should be easier to acquire and improve); 4. once they are acquired, you should be able to swap them in and out without losing the ability to reswap them.

    Large improvements: 1. cover (already mentioned); 2. LOS (already mentioned); 3. aesthetically, the fights are too boring, and long or difficult to kill opponents increase the boring exponentially bea=cause of the rinse and repeat style of combat...respawning should cost something...getting in and out of a ground combat instance should be easier if respawning costs something...once out your respawn cost is nullified, you can restructure your team's ground skills, and you can return to the start of the ground instance.
Sign In or Register to comment.