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*Please delete my old thread on this for me* Rquest: Undine crew members

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Okay, I know its against the rules to double thread, and that's not what I'm intending to do here. I accidentally posted this request already in the wrong forum thinking it was a development-requesting forum. Could an STO forum administrator *kindly* delete my old post for me. I don't want to break the rules on the forum here and I do want to make sure I post in the correct spot and that my plea is heard by the right people. Okay? Thank you.

So that said: my Request.

I think it would be fascinating to have Undine crew members in both playable factions. I know the Undine are already established in the Star Trek storyline as being very aggressive and hostile, but there's also something cool about them. There are instances where the Undine were not portrayed as down-right violent beings, such as in a couple voyager episodes, and I think it would be neat for STO to shed more light on this in the storyline.

In real life, you can't paint all members of a whole community with the same brush. Star Trek has done this already with the Klingons. Even some borg are rescued by the collective and given new insight like Hugh and Seven of Nine.

In STO, you're ambushed and back-stabbed by Undine infiltrators time and again--which I think is neat for plot and storyline. It just seems like right now the Undine in STO are being portrayed as all one shade. I think it would be so great if at least some "rogue Undine" were present in Star Trek who believe things differently than the majority of their people--some undine who might be against the infiltration--but without deviating from their Undine natures (because that's part of what makes them so interesting). Plus, I think it would be refreshing from all the "humanoid species" who sail the stars along with you. Yes, I know humanoid aliens have always been key to Star Trek, but even so, I would be thrilled to have a rogue Undine as a crew member, or even get to play as one.

Can the development team for STO please consider establishing something like this in STO? It think it would just be too cool.

*Again, please delete my old/previous post in the Foundry Community Discussion. I don't want it to be there. Thank you, kindly.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    My first thoughts was NoWay!!!

    But your line about how an entire race cannot be portrayed as everysingle one of them being a violent and war like really sold me. Still don't know if a BoFF would work but having a sorry line where your helped by an undine wanting peace is intriguing. There ya go. When foundry launches holodeck please make us this quest!!! :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    ima have to disagree with you here, i think the "have an enemy boff" thing has gone pretty far, klingon/trill or human/klingon or the thousands of borg boffs out there. The gorn or breen. it gets a bit to be too much honestly. as well..........those tripedal creatures take up alot of room and thats the small ones were talking about.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I know it is all the rage to make your enemies into sympathetic whatevers so that you can redeem them and make friends and whatnot. Undine are not redeemable; are not sympathetic; are absolute enemies of every faction in the Milky Way Galaxy.

    Let us have our villains.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I LOVE THAT IDEA *we could tell the undine bridge officer to change into a klingon or a romulan and telepathic abilitys could be a ground ability and knock backs it would make me happy if this was introduced lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Yeah, I suppose you guys are right. I don't think it would work technically in game play. You make a lot of good points, Allegian86. *Shrug* oh well. I guess I'll just have to go on dreaming for myself.

    Nazca,
    I didn't realize that it was "all the rage" to make enemies redeemable. Guess I haven't been very observant--well, maybe I've seen a lot of "Borg Players" or whatever it is, but I guess I didn't take it seriously. Guess I'm not alone out there...and if you insist, I'll let you have your villains. *nother shrug*

    Creativity is a tricky thing. What one person connects to or finds intrigue in, another want to see it as a the conflict. Because Undine are a product of creativity, you can make them whatever you want them to be and it isn't wrong. Well, since there are no Undine in real life, I can easily take comfort knowing its just fun and games and I'll let others have their fun making them they way they really wish.

    My two cents: I would have no problem if the villain was an individual Undine. I have a hard time accepting that a whole species would all be completely devoid of reason and truth, though. The very thought kind of depresses me. Even if most of the Undine really did think as complete menaces, I could take comfort in knowing at least a few were more reasonable. Even if there was just one of them in the storyline, it would really make my Star Trek Experience worth while. But hey, I'm just one guy, and if others don't want it so, I'll let it be. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. :p

    But Pikoy, I will definitely make this quest when Holodeck launches! If not for the interest of the most of the players, at least for myself.

    BTW, I know its really laughable to take art too seriously, which is why I'm relenting. It's not use getting all hyped up about something that isn't real anyway--and again the fact that its not real gives me a lot of comfort.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Thanks, Jimmy, for your thoughts. In the realm of creativity, I like to think about what *is* possible rather than stopping at a point and saying, nope.

    I guess from now on though, I'll stick to writing holonovels when the Foundry comes out with holodeck. But I'll tell you, if the dev teams were willing to make a way, I'd be thrilled.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I don't think we've really seen the Undine to be very cooperative. We know there are factions of the Undine that may have been willing to refrain from destroying Voyager outright, but the Undine are not by any means friendly.

    The Borg have already been humanized via Voyager and First Contact; I rather like having an enemy who is more than a match for the Federation and also who is alien to the Federation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I see. Perhaps I misinterpreted some instances in the series.

    In any case, again, I suppose if players want them all to remain enemies to the federation, let it be. I think they've made great enemies too, and they can remain enemies. There's just kind of a hole for me knowing there doesn't seem to be another side to them.

    Also, even if the federation did have the chance to cooperate with some rogue undine, I wouldn't want to "humanize" them either--that would take away their dignity and a big part of why they're so interesting. They could still be aggressive and maybe even sporadic but perhaps they know a better role for them in the scheme of things. I think humanity is a great way to go (I enjoy being human personally--but it's only all I've ever known). I just cringe at the idea that humanity is the only way to go. I like to believe there's an art to being whatever it is other life forms out there are meant to be. I think if I was...say, a leopard...things would be drastically differnt for me--a harder way of life, a different way of thinking or feeling, having to fight with everyone and everything for survival. But even if I wasn't human there would be some kind of beauty about it. I find this idea intriguing (I'm comfortable being human, so I'll let humans be humans and leopards be leopards so we're both content being what we are, lol).

    That said, I often wonder for myself, isn't it wrong to make an villain out of something because of their nature? Devidians aren't necessarily "villians" more like dangerous predators...but are the undine being done justice as an imaginary species?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    meh the klingons are a little anti-undine atm... the feds are... well... feds. you should be voting undine player faction :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Nazaca wrote:
    Let us have our villains.

    This is a sentiment I agree with. I see what you're saying, and it can be compelling to write stories in which the bad guys can be good, but sometimes a story needs a villain to just be a villain. I realize that Star Trek also needs to have the attempt made to make friends with everyone, that's a huge part of what it's about, but it is also a story.

    There are 2 situations where I see something like this happening:

    1. BO storylines are introduced, and we get a BO who we learn is a saboteur, and is eventually revealed to be Undine.

    2. The Iconian storyline takes off, and the races of the Galaxy and the Undine put aside their differences to kick their butts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    THAT...would be epic!

    It would only be half of what I was really dreaming of though (but I guess some of my dreams are a little silly.:rolleyes: Certainly not all my dreams, though).

    The missions would likely be the same old "kill all the humanoids." Even so, I'd try it out at least.

    I guess what Star Trek has always been for me is mainly three things: discovery, adventure, and relationships.

    Discovery is self-explanatory..."To seek out new life and new civilizations...boldly go where no one has gone before." Second, Adventure. Star Trek wouldn't be quite the same without phasers and torpedoes or dangerous, unexplained anomalies. But third is relationships. In just about every single Star Trek series I've been exposed to the aim is to learn more about other races, share secrets, and bridge relationships (where and when it's possible). The door of opportunity was opened for the Klingons at the end of the original crew movies, so we could have Mr. Worf in TNG. In Voyager, even Janeway was able to reconcile with some Hirogen. True, not everybody out there will be opened to the idea of mutual relationships with the Federation, but there's always hope for every race out there...at least I would like to believe so.:D

    Enterprise came close to redeeming the Zindi...but again, it divided the Zindi by the races, not by the individuals. After the "big, bad, ugly reptilian and insectoid" species are all outright for destroying Earth, I just couldn't take Enterprise anymore...

    It's not just Star Trek. I'm like this about a lot of things: I could take reading Harry Potter anymore after it was established that parsol-tongue was a "dark wizard trait." When I was younger, I just couldn't find it in me to appreciate Pokemon the first movie after seeing Mewtwo as despising, ruthless, merciless and even when he changed his mind at the end, I didn't think he was sorry enough.

    *shrug* Hey, I know I'm laughable. You can laugh at my ideas, because there's no use making a big deal about things that aren't even real anyway. But these little quirks of mine cause me to experience things and look and things differently in very powerful ways. I've been like this since I was a kid. It's weird and a joke, I know, but I like being unique like that. Oh well.

    And hey, what Star Trek means to me is certainly not what Star Trek means to everybody else. And that's fine.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Felderburg wrote: »
    This is a sentiment I agree with. I see what you're saying, and it can be compelling to write stories in which the bad guys can be good, but sometimes a story needs a villain to just be a villain. I realize that Star Trek also needs to have the attempt made to make friends with everyone, that's a huge part of what it's about, but it is also a story.

    There are 2 situations where I see something like this happening:

    1. BO storylines are introduced, and we get a BO who we learn is a saboteur, and is eventually revealed to be Undine.

    2. The Iconian storyline takes off, and the races of the Galaxy and the Undine put aside their differences to kick their butts.

    Of course Star Trek needs villains and antagonist. And if players and Trek-fans want the undine to all be outright villains, by all means, let it be. I just probably will have a hard time emotionally with it. lol :D

    It's very difficult to create a villain which everyone out there will hate. In the real world, arguably, there's a little something good to be found in everything. That's why in my writing (I'm a published fantasy author) when I establish villain, I make the villain an individual or a sect in a whole community, rather than the whole community itself. It's closer to being believable and acceptable I think.

    So again, I'll pass on the idea of Undine BOs. I'll just let it go.

    But quite honestly, its getting hard for me to bare playing missions on the undine front if all I'm going to find there is more ruthlessness and not a hint of anything else. But I'm just one player. My individual concerns don't matter.:rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    considering that boothby was supposed to be undine, I guess it's possible. really cool idea
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    There may already be one aboard your vessels even as we speak, plotting the demise of the Federation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Blitzy wrote:
    considering that boothby was supposed to be undine, I guess it's possible. really cool idea

    Thanks. I like to think anything good is possible, even (and especially) the realms of creativity.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    There may already be one aboard your vessels even as we speak, plotting the
    demise of the Federation.

    ***Spoiler coming up***

    LOL, yeah. I actually took the time to get into character and write in my captain's log during the mission where you have to escort the Vulcan ambassador once the Klingons warn you he's an Undine. I wrote something along the lines of "if he is an undine, as the Klingons say, I and the crew must be very cautious. I don't know what to believe as of now, but my orders are to escort him to the monastery, and those orders I will follow out..."

    Had it been a real Star Trek episode, I imagined a scene where my captain walks into the "ambassadors" quarters and questions him. The ambassador might have said something like, "I assure you, captain, I am not an undine." Only to find out he was and my captain begins a long hard journey where he is forced to challenge his intrigue and fascination with the undine species in order to protect the innocent amidst the federation.

    It was pretty fun. And mildly therapeutic. Hmm...maybe I should join a roll play, if I like to get into character...

    In any case, thanks for the lols. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Blitzy wrote:
    considering that boothby was supposed to be undine, I guess it's possible. really cool idea

    Boothby was never an Undine. The Undine impersonated him on their Academy simulation since he was such an important part of life on campus.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Felderburg wrote: »
    Boothby was never an Undine. The Undine impersonated him on their Academy simulation since he was such an important part of life on campus.

    True, very true my friend.

    Even so, it was new/interesting/intriguing/touching to see an Undine showing no malice to a federation captain--even at the end of the episode where Voyager and the Academy Simulation Undine had "come to terms" for lack of a better phrase. Even if the Undine were just playing along at the end of the episode, when the Boothby Undine is handing a rose to Janeway, it was a shadow that they were capable of more than total hostility. At least I like to think so.

    I do think the Undine are interesting as a naturally aggressive species. Being naturally aggressive and sporadic doesn't have to make undine evil, though, at least not all of them. It's possible for great hordes of societies to become corrupt, like the undine probably are in the Star Trek tmeline but there will always be at least a few individuals in these societies who try to push for a greater good.

    But being aggressive and sporadic would probably make it difficult for Undine and humanoids to function in the same environments. Being very different kinds of species, they belong in different worlds, so once again, maybe Undine Bridge Officers is going a little too far, now that I think about it. Still, I think it would be neat to have rogue undine and feds acknowledging each other from their own ships.

    I played a game once called Star Trek Encounters. While playing in the intrepid class (voyager series), Janeway and the crew of the Voyager actually do cooperate with species 8472 on mutual terms to defeat the borg queen. I know that's not what happened at all in the actual TV series, and the game isn't canon by any means. I still thought it was cool though. A different way of telling the Star Trek Mythos.
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