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Kits should only "upgrade" players - any player!

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
As some here know, I firmly believe the skill system needs to be redone in STO... I want to see more "professions" via fully realized "sub-classes" (DPS/Tank/Buff/Damage/Healer, etc.) but another thing that should change are the kits. As someone else had mentioned, it doesn't make sense that a Doctor would "forget how to heal" because he switched kits!

Each profession/sub-class should automatically come with the skills that it needs (imagine you went to classes at Starfleet Academy/Klingon Academy to learn them), and what kits do are ADD to your skills or supplement them. If you are a medic, you are already very good at healing, and you can add a healing kits to make you heal even better. But imagine you are a tactical officer, DPS style (one of the sub-classes), you could STILL equip that medical kit. It would allow you to heal (which you DID learn at the Academy!) but to a VERY minor degree.

So in theory, any profession can do *almost* anything the others could do but to a very minor degree. A DPS Tac Officer could, in theory, equip an engineering kit that lets him drop in a mobile phaser platform, but it would be so weak it would be more of an annoyance to the enemy then anything, but if an engineering officer were to equip it, especially one that is trained in mobile platforms (one of the engineering professions sub-classes) he could drop some really powerful mobile equipment down to help the group!
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    i had similar thoughts

    1) i thought every class should be able to spec in one type of weapon or have the choice to spec into any of the 3 weapons solely.

    2) every class would be able to skill in keeping their own shields up and operational

    3) everyone can use the kits from other classes

    4) you can craft the abilities that pertain to your class into your kit, like assigning your BO their abilities.

    5) maybe, just maybe......allow a sub-class system. You choose to be a TAC officer 1st and foremost and then can choose 1 of the other 2 classes as your sub class. Having same abilities as any other but at 75% strength being its your secondary and not primary.
    having only some abilities open to choose from for each class. So as a Tac 1st and Egny 2nd you only get access to part of that class and you choose, shields/buffs, turrets/drones or debuffs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    As some here know, I firmly believe the skill system needs to be redone in STO... I want to see more "professions" via fully realized "sub-classes" (DPS/Tank/Buff/Damage/Healer, etc.) but another thing that should change are the kits. As someone else had mentioned, it doesn't make sense that a Doctor would "forget how to heal" because he switched kits!

    Each profession/sub-class should automatically come with the skills that it needs (imagine you went to classes at Starfleet Academy/Klingon Academy to learn them), and what kits do are ADD to your skills or supplement them. If you are a medic, you are already very good at healing, and you can add a healing kits to make you heal even better. But imagine you are a tactical officer, DPS style (one of the sub-classes), you could STILL equip that medical kit. It would allow you to heal (which you DID learn at the Academy!) but to a VERY minor degree.

    So in theory, any profession can do *almost* anything the others could do but to a very minor degree. A DPS Tac Officer could, in theory, equip an engineering kit that lets him drop in a mobile phaser platform, but it would be so weak it would be more of an annoyance to the enemy then anything, but if an engineering officer were to equip it, especially one that is trained in mobile platforms (one of the engineering professions sub-classes) he could drop some really powerful mobile equipment down to help the group!

    This seems like the opposite of your other suggestion but goes back to an idea I had awhile ago.

    Merge the classes. Open up all skills to all players.

    But maybe you'd get some bonus skill points to spend in your area.

    So a tactical captain gets some bonus "free" skillpoints (which don't count towards the cap) to spend on their choice of ground tactical abilities or escort skills, showcasing that they're a little better in that area.

    So if you want to be an Engineering Escort Captain like me, your engineering proficiency would show up in engineering ground abilities even if you also chose to spend some points in science or tactical ground abilities.

    Instead of being restricted by profession, profession would simply represent a bonus inclination towards one area.

    So anyone could spec into the Tactical melee combat but only a Tac captain could spend their free bonus points there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I don't think it's so much that a doctor forgets how to heal. A kit in my mind provides the doctor with the tools he needs to heal. A surgeon takes years to learn his trade but is useless without his scalpel. To me the medical kit is just that's his handbag of tools to do his thing. That said I still agree with you. Let's take the tactical kit that allows lung kicks and stuff. That makes no sense and is just silly. Those types of attacks need to be learned by some other means(within the skill tree). A kit for tactical would be your grenades and such items a tactical officer may need.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I see kits more as specific equipment that allows the Captain to do that particular job. For example, a Science Officer can't heal people without a medical tricorder and an Engineering Officer can't summon turrets without their replicator or teleport beacon or whatever they use to summon stuff with.

    The main problem with your scenario is that Officers aren't trained in the particular equpment to make it actually useful. It is like asking a lawyer to fix a computer or an architect to perform open heart surgery. Chances are that a Tactical Officer will more likely not be able to do anything with the medical tricorder or cause the person they are healing to get worse. Just like how a Science Officer or Engineering Officer can't do a proper leg sweep and are more likely to injure themselves if they tried.

    So if a Tactical Officer wants to use a medical tricorder, then there should be a 20% chance of a negative effect, a 30% chance of it doing nothing, a 40% chance of some minor benefit, and a 10% chance of normal benefit. The percentages can change based on how much training they have in a different field so with enough training, there will only be the normal benefit and higher than normal benefit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    If you think lines to get in an STF group are long now. Just imagine how they can be if you sub-divide the classes.
    "Group needs one more tac for open slot"

    "Cool I'm a tac. Can I join?"

    "Are you a close combat tac?"

    "No I'm a sniper tac"

    "Oh well sorry we can't use you. Already have a sniper. We really need melee support"

    One of the points I feel is the strongest part of the game is it doesn't have that problem. You just make sure to pack the kit you need for the job and you are good to go

    It would be sad if that flexibility got removed to satisify some misguided desire for more diverse sub-classes
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I like the idea too. I thought that tactical officers should all get lunge or stealth. That science officers should all get the AOE heal. All engineers should get the shield heal that could be used on all players.

    Giving the science officers to many heals could make them really overpowered. Because they can really tank well with the medic kit and hypo's. So if they used the analyst kit and had to many heals to they could be to strong.

    They also need to make some of the points for the skill system ground only so players don't ignore half the game and claim it's broke. I know a lot people wont like this but you should have to specialize in one area in space and not ignore ground skills.

    People don't have to play ground combat if they don't want too. They can skip the ground fleet actions, STF's and the ground missions from explorer quest. You have to think if there was Star Fleet they would train officers in some from of ground training and probably be required pass some sort of minimum testing to serve on a starship. Because at some point they would go to the surface of a planet for some reason or other.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    As some here know, I firmly believe the skill system needs to be redone in STO... I want to see more "professions" via fully realized "sub-classes" (DPS/Tank/Buff/Damage/Healer, etc.) but another thing that should change are the kits. As someone else had mentioned, it doesn't make sense that a Doctor would "forget how to heal" because he switched kits!

    Each profession/sub-class should automatically come with the skills that it needs (imagine you went to classes at Starfleet Academy/Klingon Academy to learn them), and what kits do are ADD to your skills or supplement them. If you are a medic, you are already very good at healing, and you can add a healing kits to make you heal even better. But imagine you are a tactical officer, DPS style (one of the sub-classes), you could STILL equip that medical kit. It would allow you to heal (which you DID learn at the Academy!) but to a VERY minor degree.

    So in theory, any profession can do *almost* anything the others could do but to a very minor degree. A DPS Tac Officer could, in theory, equip an engineering kit that lets him drop in a mobile phaser platform, but it would be so weak it would be more of an annoyance to the enemy then anything, but if an engineering officer were to equip it, especially one that is trained in mobile platforms (one of the engineering professions sub-classes) he could drop some really powerful mobile equipment down to help the group!

    This would be logical and indicative of forethought. Are we still speaking of the same game
    or are you referring to some new game?

    Your idea is too sound to have been thought of much less used in this game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    As some here know, I firmly believe the skill system needs to be redone in STO... I want to see more "professions" via fully realized "sub-classes" (DPS/Tank/Buff/Damage/Healer, etc.) but another thing that should change are the kits. As someone else had mentioned, it doesn't make sense that a Doctor would "forget how to heal" because he switched kits!
    I think that's a bit like putting the cart before the horse. Doctors don't "forget how to heal" because they switch kits - rather the character should have never learned it in the first place as it's not his specialization.

    A problem I've always perceived in STO is that the game does not distinguish between Science and Medical, two inherently different departments with duties and knowledge only remotely connected to each other - just as Operations is made up of Engineering and Security, but nobody would send the Chief of Security to fix the warp core.

    So, in my opinion, STO should actually have four career types: Tactical (DPS), Engineering (Gadgets), Science (Controller) and Medical (Healer). That Sci and Medical got rolled into one is already more luxury than there should be. Yes, healing is important, but let's not forget that you can also bring hypos, not to mention the existence of various non-Sci healer powers.

    I see the possibility of some "intercompatible" abilities that could be used by anyone in a weakened state, but I think that'd be more hassle than it's worth. It would diminish some people's specialization without actually being really useful.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Pikoy wrote:
    I don't think it's so much that a doctor forgets how to heal. A kit in my mind provides the doctor with the tools he needs to heal. A surgeon takes years to learn his trade but is useless without his scalpel. To me the medical kit is just that's his handbag of tools to do his thing. That said I still agree with you. Let's take the tactical kit that allows lung kicks and stuff. That makes no sense and is just silly. Those types of attacks need to be learned by some other means(within the skill tree). A kit for tactical would be your grenades and such items a tactical officer may need.
    starkaos wrote: »
    I see kits more as specific equipment that allows the Captain to do that particular job. For example, a Science Officer can't heal people without a medical tricorder and an Engineering Officer can't summon turrets without their replicator or teleport beacon or whatever they use to summon stuff with.

    The main problem with your scenario is that Officers aren't trained in the particular equpment to make it actually useful. It is like asking a lawyer to fix a computer or an architect to perform open heart surgery. Chances are that a Tactical Officer will more likely not be able to do anything with the medical tricorder or cause the person they are healing to get worse. Just like how a Science Officer or Engineering Officer can't do a proper leg sweep and are more likely to injure themselves if they tried.

    So if a Tactical Officer wants to use a medical tricorder, then there should be a 20% chance of a negative effect, a 30% chance of it doing nothing, a 40% chance of some minor benefit, and a 10% chance of normal benefit. The percentages can change based on how much training they have in a different field so with enough training, there will only be the normal benefit and higher than normal benefit.

    I have to agree with these two statements. I would also like to add that I appreciate the fact that the trinity is not law in STO. I stopped playing games with the trinity entrenched in the system. To enforce the trinity in STO would mean redesigning and rebalanced every single aspect of STO, which is not going to happen.

    Kits are quite literally representational of kits; you know, an assemblage of tools and devices intended to enhance ones already formidable training. That is what the training is all about in the skill trees... to enhance the use of the tools that are the kits. marginal understanding inherent to a path gives basic understanding and use of kits, which is why a science officer cannot use a tactical kit. Science does not have the professional knowledge to actually use them.

    Again, i am glad Cryptic did not hard-wire the trinity in STO. It give everyone freedom and latitude not often seen in a MMORPG these days.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Ayenn wrote:
    I have to agree with these two statements. I would also like to add that I appreciate the fact that the trinity is not law in STO. I stopped playing games with the trinity entrenched in the system. To enforce the trinity in STO would mean redesigning and rebalanced every single aspect of STO, which is not going to happen.

    Kits are quite literally representational of kits; you know, an assemblage of tools and devices intended to enhance ones already formidable training. That is what the training is all about in the skill trees... to enhance the use of the tools that are the kits. marginal understanding inherent to a path gives basic understanding and use of kits, which is why a science officer cannot use a tactical kit. Science does not have the professional knowledge to actually use them.

    Again, i am glad Cryptic did not hard-wire the trinity in STO. It give everyone freedom and latitude not often seen in a MMORPG these days.

    Trinity doesn't force anyone to play a role to they don't want too. You don't have to spec to tank unless you want too. If you want to fly a DPS cruiser you can not having trinity just makes tanking and aggro control harder than it should be. Because escorts take aggro and keep it so easily.

    All STO has is chaotic NPC aggro that doesn't make sense. It gives aggro to the ships and classes that aren't suppose to have it. In my escort I stopped using my abilities and would still take aggro with auto attack. I would use jam sensors drop aggro briefly then regain it with just auto attack. So it leaves me with two options to either play zerg spawn which isn't fun. Or fly in and out of his weapon range which isn't fun. Having to stop DPS a lot and not play my ship the way it's meant to be played. Taking me out of the game play.

    In the ground combat fleet actions I was playing my science officer trying to heal. I would end up having to spam heal my self more than the other players. The NPC's were attacking me while other players were attacking them. So I am having to spam heal myself while the NPC's aren't attacking the players DPSing them.

    I have sent my bridge officers in to NPC groups. Staying outside of weapons range and even hiding sometimes and some of them would run up to me and start attacking me while my BO's are attacking them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I find the whole skill/BO/kit setup to be mostly incomprehensible. First is, why is that the BOs have skills that are active skills and the Captain's skills are pretty much entirely passive both on the ground and in space? We're all Starfleet officers, shouldn't my captain be able to learn anything the BOs can?

    The kit should be equipment I can use, and I should theoretically be able to give my engineer and science BOs the ones I can't use as a tactical officer. The kit should be the buff, not the skill itself. I have a healing skill, and if I have a Dermal Regenerator in my kit, I can heal more advanced injuries than I can with just the basic med kit that has only bandages, or some such, provided I taught my captain/BO to do that.

    Why are my BOs restricted to learning four skills, and why can they learn Skill X III without needing to know Skill X I or Skill X II? Shouldn't it be that I want to train my BO from the start in Skill X and level their skill up to maximum? That way by the end of the game, I have BOs with four max-rank skills, if there is to be this kind of limitation?

    Of course, that runs into the silly problem of the bridge stations having rank and type restrictions, which if done away with would allow us to use the ships for longer if we so chose...

    Lastly, if the game had the kind of problem solving depth it really should, what skills your BOs have really would affect how you play the game, thus granting incentives to re-play it. If I'm in a mission and I have no healing BO, and there's a plague that needs to be cured, then obviously I'm not going to do a terribly good job of it. That would also encourage me to be teamed up with another captain who may have the skills my team lacks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    LotD wrote:
    First is, why is that the BOs have skills that are active skills and the Captain's skills are pretty much entirely passive both on the ground and in space?

    The kit should be equipment I can use, and I should theoretically be able to give my engineer and science BOs the ones I can't use as a tactical officer.


    Lastly, if the game had the kind of problem solving depth it really should, what skills your BOs have really would affect how you play the game, thus granting incentives to re-play it. If I'm in a mission and I have no healing BO, and there's a plague that needs to be cured, then obviously I'm not going to do a terribly good job of it. That would also encourage me to be teamed up with another captain who may have the skills my team lacks.

    Excellent points and I agree.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Personally I wish they would split the trees between ground and space skills, with their own point pools. Then combined with the OP idea of having some degree of skill in all 'class' related abilities with pack upgrades. I'm not fond of the idea that being decent on the ground means you have to sacrifice being as decent in space, or vice versa.
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