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Endgame! Endgame! Endgame!

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I know the Devs know this already, but we all know it wont happen unless we cry for it. So I think its time we start putting our ideas for what we think Endgame should actually look like in this game, out there for the devs. Instead of shaking our fists at Cryptic and crying foul. Why dont we use this place the Devs gave us to voice what we think this game needs when it comes to Endgame.

When I first started playing this game, this forum was well known for not just the "I Quit" threads or the
"Cryptic=Fail" threads but the "I have this great idea" threads as well. But I dont see them that much anymore. So Im hoping some of you will join me in an attempt to show Cryptic the community (or atleast us on the forums) is looking for something more then the same old "repeat a hundred times for a shiny only for it to be useless upon skill cap raised missions". That we want our Endgame. Even if we cant have it now.

Currently we can only go into STFs with as little as 5 people. Which guess what? is the same as every other mission in the game....you can have at maximum 5 people. Which means the STFs arent Endgame but just a way of distracting us from the truth. That players who max out, have nothing to do but turn around and start a new character.

Now I know they are working on new missions, Devidians and Deferi. Which Im not saying they should stop. Because the number one complaint I remember as a Lt-Capt was the lack of missions between the 10 levels of each rank. Youd have to grind thru hours of broken Exploration missions (remember how maddening Aid the Planet used to be?) just so you could finish up that rank. So being able to fill in all of that with missions is great.

But that doesnt mean we forget what is still needed. ENDGAME. You can attempt to distract us all you with new ships or uniforms that remind us of why we love Star Trek so (growing up watching TNG....Troi was hot in those tights...no? well atleast I thought she was).

And Foundry doesnt count as a means for Endgame either, so please, if you have an idea. share it. Ill be sure to post some ideas of my own once i regain feeling in my fingers.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    In my opinion weekly missions and UGC missions are there rather to deal with lack of content (especially for the KDF faction) than to provide "endgame" content.

    PvP sectors will probably provide more diversified and non-repetitive endgame content (since opponent players act differently than NPCs), but not everyone likes PvP. In terms of PvE and character progression however STO does not have the depth of a sandbox MMORPG like EvE Online.

    But there are some interesting endgame proposals in the signature of Darren_Kitlor.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    DarrenKitlor's List of Ideas Applicable at Endgame (or QoL Improvements):

    Summary: Some of these ideas date back to March and April but still apply to a large degree. Most were collaborative and incorporated feedback from forum users on how to improve. While many of them share core gameplay mechanics (such as opt-in territory control, they also have unique flavors. Some are more diplomacy/strategy focused and others are more PvP focused.

    Most include pictures and a few (like the Explore the System idea) include full-color PDFs

    Endgame Ideas
    (=| Voyage Home |=)
    Synopsis: Oregon Trail meets Medieval: Total War meets Civilization

    (=| Warfront Endgame |=)
    Synopsis: Complicated territory control system merged with randomized events (KDF focused)

    (=| Under Siege Proposal |=)
    Synopsis: Starbases + Opt-in PvP ideas

    (=| Territory Control |=)
    Synopsis: The basic idea that influenced the design of the above mentioned threads

    Quality of Life Ideas
    (=| Improving Ground Combat |=)
    Synopsis: New weapon types, new powers, new game mechanics, new everything

    (=| The Daystrom Institute's Gear Revamp Proposal |=)
    Synopsis: Tons of added gear variety

    (=| Re-thinking Fleet Actions and STFs in STO: A Suggested Paradigm Shift |=)
    Synopsis: Improving the design of large-group content to involve multiple ranks without auto-leveling

    (=| Explore the System Proposal |=)
    Synopsis: Improving star cluster missions (also used as a base model for many of the endgame ideas in Star Clusters)

    (=| Capture and Hold: Once more with Feeling |=)
    Synopsis: Improving Capture and Hold flow and game mechanics

    (=| Design a Ship Gameplay Mechanic |=)
    Synopsis: Collaborative project to get more unique powers for ships

    Essays
    (=| Rethinking Rewards: How Economics and Psychology can Inform STO |=)
    Synopsis: Catering rewards to the activity involved, very tough to summarize.

    (=| Gestalt Psychology and the Star Trek Online Interface |=)
    Synopsis: Making the interface more intuitive

    Note: There were a few more but none were as polished as these ones were.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    In terms of PvE and character progression however STO does not have the depth of a sandbox MMORPG like EvE Online.
    I'm a little confused here. EVE has very little (and very dry) PVE progression at all (partly due to a PvP design focus).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I know the Devs know this already, but we all know it wont happen unless we cry for it. So I think its time we start putting our ideas for what we think Endgame should actually look like in this game, out there for the devs. Instead of shaking our fists at Cryptic and crying foul. Why dont we use this place the Devs gave us to voice what we think this game needs when it comes to Endgame.

    I thoroughly disagree with any concept of End Game at all. The game should be playable forever and ever with no end in sight......

    Exploring New Star Systems and space in general should be a Life Long Excursion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I'm a little confused here. EVE has very little (and very dry) PVE progression at all (partly due to a PvP design focus).
    Character progresion, not PvE progression. Regarding PvE: i also count collection of resources, research, crafting and corporation/alliance management (including claiming and strengthening of stellar systems).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    To me end game has always been about PVP. I know lots of people don't like PVP. There needs to be something for both sides to work for like territory control. For the people that don't like PVP they could gather resources/transport them for the campaign or maybe even help repair damaged ships. Or tow them to a starbase rescue missions would appeal to a lot of people. Give reasons for people to fly hospital ships and people to protect those ships.

    Some of the game mechanics prevent endgame grouping. Like not being able to form larger groups. Escorts taking aggro no real way for them to drop it quickly. The current abilities there really wasn't a affective way for my cruiser to take and keep aggro. Fire at will wasn't very effective. It seemed like every ship needs the same abilities and no reason to play different roles.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Endgame = repetitive content for level-capped players

    Therefore no matter what type of endgame content is implemented, it will become stale at some point. If one wants to continue to have a reason to play, I'd suggest making one for yourself. Personally, I run events for my fleet, maintain a Captain's Log, and am now getting into movies using DemoRecord. All that is on top of dailies/reruns/crafting if I'm not as motivated at that moment. Once Foundry hits holodeck I plan on integrating that into my "endgame" as well.

    I wouldn't mind seeing more PVP content, especially of the "realm vs realm" type but I would be concerned about balance issues. All other pvp debates aside, I would bet that if you run the numbers on the average amount of Klingon victories per day vice Fed, the Klingons would basically own Eta Eridani Sector continuously.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I thoroughly disagree with any concept of End Game at all. The game should be playable forever and ever with no end in sight......

    Exploring New Star Systems and space in general should be a Life Long Excursion.

    Exploration is endgame. ;)

    I think you're using a different definition of endgame than the OP but are more or less agreeing that there needs to be stuff you can always do (even if some of it is more rewarding at max level - which exploration might be)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I think what an excellent idea would be is to simply steal (Before you complain in the IT stealing a good idea is nromal and concidred more smart than creating a bad one yourselves) EVE factional warfare which offers a really nice mix of PVE and PVP, you see many PVE players in thee doing some PVP to now and heading to the low sec areas where they previously rarely dared to go.

    I think if you want to do it well you have to combine PVE and PVP and manage to make both inteesthing even for pure pvpers as myself or pure pveers as others are.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I like the game but without a neverending end game I may not stay forever....

    I really would like to see sector control, massive 20 vs 20 or even 40 vs 40 space and ground battles resulting in territory gains and the possiblity of a earth/esd raid by klingons or fed invasion of the klingon homeworld.

    now that would keep me happy for the rest of the games life
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Problem is, Cryptic really can';t work on too many long-term plans for endgame right now, because all too many people are whining for fluff. Yes, fluff.

    Cryptic's staff is limited (210 employees accrding to LinkedIn, with 5% of 'em character artists and 7% programmers/environmental artists (same percentage for both)). It's a lot quicker to appease the fanbase by churining out things like ships, races, adn costumes than it is to create mission chains or even think about endgame - with limited resources it's more efective to churn out the fluff to try to appease STO's Unpleasable Fanbase.

    So, you won't see and endgame work until (probrably) Foundry comes Live - it'll reduce the pressure soemwhat for more missions, and hopefully they'll be able to work on things like endgame content th4en.

    Or not - depends on how many more people want fluff of various kinds, rather than bugfixes and/or official content.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Currently we can only go into STFs with as little as 5 people. Which guess what? is the same as every other mission in the game....you can have at maximum 5 people. Which means the STFs arent Endgame but just a way of distracting us from the truth. That players who max out, have nothing to do but turn around and start a new character.

    So, what is your definition of endgame content? 10 person ? 25 person? STO does not need to follow WoW's model to have an end game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I really hopes its different here but the other heroic game has a 'foundry' item. It doesn't really work. It was popular for power leveling and with gold gathers, but it seems pretty dead now. 'The' problem was actually finding something good to play in it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Callasan wrote: »
    Problem is, Cryptic really can';t work on too many long-term plans for endgame right now, because all too many people are whining for fluff. Yes, fluff.

    Cryptic's staff is limited (210 employees accrding to LinkedIn, with 5% of 'em character artists and 7% programmers/environmental artists (same percentage for both)). It's a lot quicker to appease the fanbase by churining out things like ships, races, adn costumes than it is to create mission chains or even think about endgame - with limited resources it's more efective to churn out the fluff to try to appease STO's Unpleasable Fanbase.

    So, you won't see and endgame work until (probrably) Foundry comes Live - it'll reduce the pressure soemwhat for more missions, and hopefully they'll be able to work on things like endgame content th4en.

    Or not - depends on how many more people want fluff of various kinds, rather than bugfixes and/or official content.

    And this is why we need to push for Endgame. We gotta yell louder then those looking for just a quick five minute vanity perk for whats best for the game. If that means "whining" like the rest of them so be it. Atleast we know were doing it for the survival of this game and not for the five minutes of fluff.
    milamber42 wrote:
    So, what is your definition of endgame content? 10 person ? 25 person? STO does not need to follow WoW's model to have an end game.

    Not even sure why your mentioning WoW. Were talking about STO Endgame here. Nice that you ignored my entire post only to try and attack one small portion of my post. Which was insignificant compared to the idea that STFs arent actual Endgame.

    And no ones asking for a small army to amass inside one of these STFs, only that there is nothing different between an STF and a normal mission overall. If people want to run it as only 5 people so be it but whats wrong with 10 or 15 people? In space missions (PvP wise) I can see much larger but on the ground 5 people is like sending a couple guys out to meet the army thats poised to take their town.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    milamber42 wrote:
    So, what is your definition of endgame content? 10 person ? 25 person? STO does not need to follow WoW's model to have an end game.

    Wow was not the first MMO to have large scale fights.....there is more to mmo's than Wow

    Hell i remember 40+ each side rebel vs imperial battles in star wars galaxies well before Wow

    large scale battles would bring in new tactics and not everyone would be going for dps..you would get proper healers and support ships...small squadrons of escorts making attack runs agaisnt klingon carrier groups and all sorts
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    And this is why we need to push for Endgame. We gotta yell louder then those looking for just a quick five minute vanity perk for whats best for the game. If that means "whining" like the rest of them so be it. Atleast we know were doing it for the survival of this game and not for the five minutes of fluff.



    Not even sure why your mentioning WoW. Were talking about STO Endgame here. Nice that you ignored my entire post only to try and attack one small portion of my post. Which was insignificant compared to the idea that STFs arent actual Endgame.

    And no ones asking for a small army to amass inside one of these STFs, only that there is nothing different between an STF and a normal mission overall. If people want to run it as only 5 people so be it but whats wrong with 10 or 15 people? In space missions (PvP wise) I can see much larger but on the ground 5 people is like sending a couple guys out to meet the army thats poised to take their town.

    STF's are specifically designed for 5 person groups. The normal missions are not. You can only do STF's as an admiral / general. Sounds like they fit the definition of end game content to me. It may not be the end game content that you want, but it is endgame content.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    milamber42 wrote:
    STF's are specifically designed for 5 person groups. The normal missions are not. You can only do STF's as an admiral / general. Sounds like they fit the definition of end game content to me. It may not be the end game content that you want, but it is endgame content.

    since when havent you been able to team up with 4 other people and go fight it out on any mission? oh thats right you always have been able to and always will be able to.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    since when havent you been able to team up with 4 other people and go fight it out on any mission? oh thats right you always have been able to and always will be able to.

    Yes, just like you can in any other MMO.

    But you can't do a STF until admiral. Isn't that an endgame level? Again, STF's were designed to be harder and for a group. Your statement does not address this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    since when havent you been able to team up with 4 other people and go fight it out on any mission? oh thats right you always have been able to and always will be able to.

    However, you had the option of going it solo there. You do not with STFs.

    If you want to get grumpy, you can technically attempt WoW raids with 2 people, or even the heroics with just one person.

    Doesn't mean it's possible at the appropriate levels because the encounters were actually designed for a larger party.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Just thought I would add a little more here. Allegiance, while STFs are not endgame that you prefer, they are endgame content, IMO. And truthfully, they are not endgame content that appeals to me either.

    It all boils down to why you play MMOs. I play MMOs to have fun, and my endgame is PvP. I like it even though I am far from being one of the best at it. I have 3 VAs and I have probably completed half of the missions on the Fed side. I PvPed on all of my characters from Lt to VA. I've been reading the forums and responding to this thread as I am queued for Arena at VA. The KDF needs someone to fight. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    For me the end-game content is going to be the 200+ missions in the Foundry: which is why I'm not testing them on Tribble. I want to enjoy that content when it's released to the public. I figure I can do 4-5 of those a day, along with some Dalies, and keep myself busy a couple of 2-3 hours a day without too much grinding.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Woril wrote: »
    In my opinion weekly missions and UGC missions are there rather to deal with lack of content (especially for the KDF faction) than to provide "endgame" content.

    Endgame content is just one form of content, typically apparantly a easily repeatable one so it can be played infinitely often, unlike regular story content missions. So if UGC producted tons of great stuff, you might not actually need endgame content, since people would get new stuff to do all the time.

    Of course, that would assume we could do anything with UGC, but we can't. There are certainly limitations. If you want some type of PvP/persistance related content (which isn't necessarily just endgame, but it's a form of content that certainly works for endgame), the Foundry won't cover that.

    There are two major areas - besides UGC - that would interest me regarding content:

    - Exploration Sectors where you really feel you explore unknown space and add "knowledge" about the space, pushing the borders of known space.
    - Open PvP Sectors where you really feel some kind of war progress and as if you are fighting for something.
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