I came into the game thinking that escorts, cruisers, science vessels would reflect the capabilities of their series counterparts. Come to find out that this is by no means the case. let me show you.
Science vessel in series: basic armament, basic armor, combat wise the weakest things in the whole fleet.
Science vessel in STO: So many heals and anomalies that you can't even get their shields down.
Cruiser Series: 12 phaser banks 2 or more torpedo launchers, high armor near max firepower. Very capable in nearly any fight.
Cruiser STO: ok you nailed the cruiser. 8 slots instead of the 14+ they should really have but balance wise very good.
Escort Series: Intrepid sized ship with more firepower than a sovereign. 18 or more phaser banks. 5 torpedo launchers. Fastest ships in the fleet. Better than average armor. Top of the line shields. Prometheus took out a Romulan cruiser in 1 or 2 shots completely destroying it in less than a couple of seconds.
Escort STO: Fewer Slots, slower, far weaker. How could the Prometheus take down a Romulan battle cruiser but I can't take out a cruiser's shields before I get destroyed? I can't even touch a science vessels shields much less their hull.
The Escort not only got shafted in that respect but also got shafted in the fact that while science and cruiser both have 2 refits to choose from escorts get shoved into the defiant rip off.
If you look at the chart escorts are missing 2 ships from their tree. Where is the advanced heavy escort?
Or the Advanced Escort Refit? Where is my Multi vector assault mode? The Defiant class bites for one main reason when you decloak yeah you get a little bonus defense to make up for the fact that you have no shields. you shields have to recharge from 0 that takes 20 seconds, your defense doesn't last that long. you come out of cloak your a sitting duck waiting for the shotgun.
Thanks STO you took some of the most advanced and tide turning ships in the series the weakest and most useless ships in the game then short changed us on the number of ships to choose from on top of it.
The Prometheus is only an Escort by STO definition.
The canon Prometheus was a fair sized warship with the most advanced military technology Starfleet had available.
Also your overrating the Prometheus capabilities, as all the romulan warbirds had already sustained a fair amount of damage before the Prometheus engaged MVAM.
But even canon ships like the Defiant and Prometheus are definitely not more powerful than a Sovereign or Galaxy class ship.
Keep in mind that there were something like three other ships in that battle alongside the Prometheus. It's not really established how damaged that Romulan ship was before the Prometheus got involved.
I think escorts can be very, very useful if used properly. It can't be just a "fly into the middle of the crowd" kind of deal, you have to time it properly. But a well-timed alpha strike from an escort can dismantle a cruiser very effectively. However, I do think that escorts need more attention and some new ships. Aside from the VA refits, Sci got the Nebula and Cruiser got the Excelsior but there's still nothing for the Escorts.
STO can't be run like the TV shows. In the shows Escorts have an "I win" button but in a game, especially a multi-player game rather then a single-player game, there needs to be balance between the ship Classes. Escorts can't win all the time like they do in the shows. If they did no one would ever play anything but an Escort in a combat game.
I too am a bit disappointed with the Defiant Refit but with any luck, when crptic decides they need more $, they
will offer a ship in the C-Store. Just feel comfortable knowing that the all mighty dollar is king and they will eventually
want/need more.
If piloted by an engineer or a science captain escorts are still quite surviable.
It is much more difficult to destroy a cruiser with a single alpha strike novadays, but you also can afford to lower your movement speed in combat without being rammed by the next cruiser, since ramming speed has been nerfed as well.
If piloted by an engineer or a science captain escorts are still quite surviable.
It is much more difficult to destroy a cruiser with a single alpha strike novadays, but you also can afford to lower your movement speed in combat without being rammed by the next cruiser, since ramming speed has been nerfed as well.
this is good advice. My Defiant is so freakin fast I put the camera in chase mode and get sick from the crazy angles of my turns. MVAM? I feel I got that in my defiant already because I spin around like a top....on crack. I can hit 3 different shield facings in one pass the thing is so twitchy/fast!
Good luck trying to ram me. I'd welcome it just to slow me down.
There's no definitions like that in real lore and you're generalizing.
The Defiant was described in canon and an Escort. All that means is that it was the only Fed ship that focused almost entirely on battle at the time. It had insane firepower (we don't know what it had more than a Sovereign and it probably didn't). It was not the fastest ship or near it. It's maximum warp was pretty low. It had very maneuverable and fast thrusters and impulse engines though.
As for the Prometheus. It's not really an Escort outside of STO. It's a bit more combat centric but has a ton of other stuff too. If I had to use the non-canon definitions of "Escort, Science and Cruiser" ships I'd say it would be closer to an Escort Cruiser.
But yeah, I think Escorts in STO could be represented better. Specifically the fact that there's no real importance of maneuverability (which was KEY for the Defiant) aside from shield facings. You can't maneuver to dodge attacks or anything. Every ship has basically the same chance to evade damage.
But on the other side Cruisers aren't represented at 100%. I mean what Galaxy-class couldn't pull off the top level Beam Overload? Realistically the biggest and best Cruisers were the TOP ships in lore and couldn't be matched by anything that you called a "Science ship" or "Escort". There simply weren't any combat capable ships that could match the flagship cruisers in Starfleet. However, us being all Cruisers as lore would suggest (for balance) would be BORING and Cryptic did a good thing here.
actually i watched the episode with promethus just last night it was discribed as "for deep space tactical assinments" which fits the bill of an escort. And though escorts main advantage is that it can equip cannons that isnt what classifies them as escorts. A small manuverable ship with heavier then average armerments for its size i would think comes closest. Aka the akira, defiant, steamrunner. Promethus fits right in that.
MVA is multi vector assault mode. your ship spilts in 3 and attacks with more firepower because of showing previously hidden weapons.
Yeah, I know...thats why I said I already feel like I have it in my escort because from the hella crazy turn rate and amped up speed, I can hit three shield facing (as if I were firing from three seperate locations) all in one pass. See? Make sense the second time?
Can you imagine how horrible the game would be if things were balanced the way you described? Science ships as useless pieces of junk and Escorts as indestructible warmachines.....this is a game, and as such needs to be balanced to provide any fun gameplay
Escort Series: Intrepid sized ship with more firepower than a sovereign. 18 or more phaser banks. 5 torpedo launchers. Fastest ships in the fleet. Better than average armor. Top of the line shields. Prometheus took out a Romulan cruiser in 1 or 2 shots completely destroying it in less than a couple of seconds.
Escort STO: Fewer Slots, slower...
I do believe sir/mam, that there's you're problem. Try running high power engines. Dont treat it like any slow cruiser, use it for hit and run attacks.
I've been nailed many times in my cruiser by a very well captained fleet escort multiple times because of the fact that he could go in and out of my fire range and decide when to strike. In a 1on1 engagement it would have been even, but in the team-vs-team PvP setup that is common in STO, he's like the vulture waiting for the prey to weaken before he swoops down to stab with his talons and feast...
I for one think we need some lovin'. I also think our SET should not despawn after six seconds or so of none combat. They should stay until they do the proper red shirt thing! We could also use a cannon power at the first tier as well as some adjustment in the durations and CD on powers in general and the TT power - well, talk about a slap in the face...
MVA is multi vector assault mode. your ship spilts in 3 and attacks with more firepower because of showing previously hidden weapons.
Which, for the record, is agonizingly STUPID both in TV and in a videogame.
This isn't a setting or game with heavily directional defenses. Shoot a ship from three sides and its the same amount of damage being spread more thinly and becomes easier to manage for the target, not harder.
...And what is the point of HIDING weapons? You either have the engine power to fire them, or you don't. You don't magically gain firepower from spliting up. They could have put all those weapons were they were exposed on the hull in the first place and the ship would have been MORE dangerous by the standards of the setting (and in-game).
It was a lame gimic in show and it's about as functional in the game. Its cool sounding, but then so are the Power Rangers until you stop and think about it for 1 second.
...And what is the point of HIDING weapons? You either have the engine power to fire them, or you don't. You don't magically gain firepower from spliting up. They could have put all those weapons were they were exposed on the hull in the first place and the ship would have been MORE dangerous by the standards of the setting (and in-game).
While not a fan of MVAM, I feel I should make a point here.
You can only fit so many weapons on a ship because of it's surface area.
After the ship splits, there's more surface area, where there are weapons that could not have been put on the outside of the whole ship.
The ships are already so armed to the teeth that the Intrepid can fire phasers from its nacelles, truth be told, I think it's more a matter of surface area vs how many phaser strips fit on it in this day and time.
I personally think the perception of teh Escort feeling weaker in STO is merely a missconception based off of the portrayal of the escort class in the TV shows that shows them being tough, hard to diasble vessels in combat and not the often squishy glass cannon that they are in gameplay.
Unfortunately I see no way for the Dev's to make the escort " the tough little ship" from the shows without unbalancing them versus the other 2 ship classes.
Show portrayals didn't adhere to realism either. The ship's status was always a part of the plot. If the storyline called for the thing to explode, it did.
For example, the Enterprise's windows are made of transparent aluminum (mentioned in both TNG and ST:Voyage Home). However, in Generations, the windows shatter like glass.
Is this because there's a consistent logical framework or because the plot superseded all continuity considerations?
Well, the defiant wasn't that mega tuff either.
Odyssey held much longer in the engagement vs jemhardar attack fighters then the defiant.
Lakoa would have creamed the defiant if it had used its quantum torpedoes at all, which the captain refused, while the defiant did used them.
After playing a bit fed escort for a change i don't think that escorts need any uptuffing at all.
But what would be nice if cannon and beam skills for BOs would share the same ranks, and not cannon skills start one rank higher.
Escorts are just that, escorts. Pair one with a cruiser geared for healing and you've got it made. Make a group of 5 with 1 Cruiser, 1 Science, and 3 Escorts and you'll blow your way through anything.
Escorts still kill stuff fast in normal mode pve. They don't work as well in pvp anymore because everyone got a shield and hull buff.
Since I play pve, I haven't complained about the escort's power. But I do think another balance pass is needed; the science ships are too tough defensively and too weak offensively; perhaps that's more canon but makes every pve mission with a sci vessel take longer. Since I don't die in pve with my escorts anyway I don't need the additional toughness of the sci vessel and I quit flying them. Escorts should be able to take on a sci vessel in pvp; right now it seems pretty futile one on one. Playing one one one challenge it is impossible for my escort to bring down my brother's sci vessel; by the time I weaken him much his heals have recharged and I just have to use superior speed to run away.
Cruisers also aren't offensively powered enough and perhaps too defensively powered. My main complaint with the cruiser is the boff slots. Only the Excelsior gives you Beam Overload 3 and such; it is the only Fed cruiser I play because of the boff slots. It rankles me that the biggest ship in the game can't use the biggest offensive capabilities, cannons notwithstanding.
Is it too much to ask that at vice admiral level you should have some say in how your skill layout and boffs are set up? This is your flagship; you should be able to spec out for tactical during a time of war. Universal slots is the way to go for top level ships. Universal console slots should also be allowed with caveats that there are limits on stacking consoles.
I figure in a year or two the game will go that direction. Patience is a virtue, but I admit to being bored right now flying the same ships the way they are now. Hopefully new ships will offer new gameplay options beyond the one special power they get now. The Excelsior was a good start; now we need boff layouts with other ships that compare.
You only ever see one 'true escort' in the shows, Defiant.
Granted that the defiant has a hefty load of firepower, but even then it never destroys any cruiser sized vessel in one attack run. Usually its Dom bugships, and hey, you CAN destroy bugships in STO in one run.
Prometheus, is an escort in STO, but not in actuality. Advanced experimental assault cruiser, or somesuch. I would expect it to have more firepower than any escort really.
The Escort is a little underpowered compared to a cruiser. (but then what isn't in this game. It is Cruiser Online after all..... stupid devs and boosting durability cycles even further every time we turn around..)
However it is only that, a little underpowered. I think most of that comes from the fact that the cannon skills are too high ranked for what they do and provide for a ship while the Beam Skills are sitting exactly where they need to be. Fix that and alot of the escort's problems would go away. I'd also argue that certain eng skills need to be in Lt. Like warp plasma. (why? DEM is an LT skill and is just as powerful as Warp Plasma 1... it certainly would make that LT spot more competitive.....) Giving escorts more access to zone control. If I can do it in my BOP there is no excuse even fathomable, as to why an Escort shouldn't be able to as well.
Couple that with the fact that there are alot of kindergarten level gamers in this game, trying to fly what they think looks cool getting owned constantly by gamers that have been playing videogames since they were 5 and you really end up with fun little situations. "My cruiser is too weak it needs to be buffed more!"....unfortunately for the rest of us... Cryptic rather than telling these people that frankly they have more than enough already, actually gives them more. (Aegis set being so damned good for cruisers for example). The real problem with this, is as much as this sort of thing helps the kindergamers, it benefits us hardcore gamers even more, as we min max the hell out of it. Putting an even larger gap between players rather than leveling the playing field.
Yep....the biggest mistake people make is to ASSUME that escort are built like crusiers. Escorts were never meant to survive as long as a Crusier in terms of time in battle. Escorts are heavy on first strike but low on survivability. That is EXACTLY what is in game now. In fact, before they were tuned back a bit, Escort were probably the most feared and strongest ships in the game.
Yep....the biggest mistake people make is to ASSUME that escort are built like crusiers. Escorts were never meant to survive as long as a Crusier in terms of time in battle. Escorts are heavy on first strike but low on survivability. That is EXACTLY what is in game now. In fact, before they were tuned back a bit, Escort were probably the most feared and strongest ships in the game.
I don't think escorts are particularly fragile now. They just have a hard time defeating tanking ships. There was a time when escorts were overpowered, as there was a time when sci vessels were overpowered. I stand by what I said about their relative strengths now though.
Comments
The canon Prometheus was a fair sized warship with the most advanced military technology Starfleet had available.
Also your overrating the Prometheus capabilities, as all the romulan warbirds had already sustained a fair amount of damage before the Prometheus engaged MVAM.
But even canon ships like the Defiant and Prometheus are definitely not more powerful than a Sovereign or Galaxy class ship.
I think escorts can be very, very useful if used properly. It can't be just a "fly into the middle of the crowd" kind of deal, you have to time it properly. But a well-timed alpha strike from an escort can dismantle a cruiser very effectively. However, I do think that escorts need more attention and some new ships. Aside from the VA refits, Sci got the Nebula and Cruiser got the Excelsior but there's still nothing for the Escorts.
will offer a ship in the C-Store. Just feel comfortable knowing that the all mighty dollar is king and they will eventually
want/need more.
It is much more difficult to destroy a cruiser with a single alpha strike novadays, but you also can afford to lower your movement speed in combat without being rammed by the next cruiser, since ramming speed has been nerfed as well.
this is good advice. My Defiant is so freakin fast I put the camera in chase mode and get sick from the crazy angles of my turns. MVAM? I feel I got that in my defiant already because I spin around like a top....on crack. I can hit 3 different shield facings in one pass the thing is so twitchy/fast!
Good luck trying to ram me. I'd welcome it just to slow me down.
The Defiant was described in canon and an Escort. All that means is that it was the only Fed ship that focused almost entirely on battle at the time. It had insane firepower (we don't know what it had more than a Sovereign and it probably didn't). It was not the fastest ship or near it. It's maximum warp was pretty low. It had very maneuverable and fast thrusters and impulse engines though.
As for the Prometheus. It's not really an Escort outside of STO. It's a bit more combat centric but has a ton of other stuff too. If I had to use the non-canon definitions of "Escort, Science and Cruiser" ships I'd say it would be closer to an Escort Cruiser.
But yeah, I think Escorts in STO could be represented better. Specifically the fact that there's no real importance of maneuverability (which was KEY for the Defiant) aside from shield facings. You can't maneuver to dodge attacks or anything. Every ship has basically the same chance to evade damage.
But on the other side Cruisers aren't represented at 100%. I mean what Galaxy-class couldn't pull off the top level Beam Overload? Realistically the biggest and best Cruisers were the TOP ships in lore and couldn't be matched by anything that you called a "Science ship" or "Escort". There simply weren't any combat capable ships that could match the flagship cruisers in Starfleet. However, us being all Cruisers as lore would suggest (for balance) would be BORING and Cryptic did a good thing here.
Yeah, I know...thats why I said I already feel like I have it in my escort because from the hella crazy turn rate and amped up speed, I can hit three shield facing (as if I were firing from three seperate locations) all in one pass. See? Make sense the second time?
I do believe sir/mam, that there's you're problem. Try running high power engines. Dont treat it like any slow cruiser, use it for hit and run attacks.
I've been nailed many times in my cruiser by a very well captained fleet escort multiple times because of the fact that he could go in and out of my fire range and decide when to strike. In a 1on1 engagement it would have been even, but in the team-vs-team PvP setup that is common in STO, he's like the vulture waiting for the prey to weaken before he swoops down to stab with his talons and feast...
I already collect VA/RA emblems with my main for that ship
Which, for the record, is agonizingly STUPID both in TV and in a videogame.
This isn't a setting or game with heavily directional defenses. Shoot a ship from three sides and its the same amount of damage being spread more thinly and becomes easier to manage for the target, not harder.
...And what is the point of HIDING weapons? You either have the engine power to fire them, or you don't. You don't magically gain firepower from spliting up. They could have put all those weapons were they were exposed on the hull in the first place and the ship would have been MORE dangerous by the standards of the setting (and in-game).
It was a lame gimic in show and it's about as functional in the game. Its cool sounding, but then so are the Power Rangers until you stop and think about it for 1 second.
i will agree there should be more variants of escorts now but they are not useless. far from it.
While not a fan of MVAM, I feel I should make a point here.
You can only fit so many weapons on a ship because of it's surface area.
After the ship splits, there's more surface area, where there are weapons that could not have been put on the outside of the whole ship.
The ships are already so armed to the teeth that the Intrepid can fire phasers from its nacelles, truth be told, I think it's more a matter of surface area vs how many phaser strips fit on it in this day and time.
Unfortunately I see no way for the Dev's to make the escort " the tough little ship" from the shows without unbalancing them versus the other 2 ship classes.
Show portrayals didn't adhere to realism either. The ship's status was always a part of the plot. If the storyline called for the thing to explode, it did.
For example, the Enterprise's windows are made of transparent aluminum (mentioned in both TNG and ST:Voyage Home). However, in Generations, the windows shatter like glass.
Is this because there's a consistent logical framework or because the plot superseded all continuity considerations?
Odyssey held much longer in the engagement vs jemhardar attack fighters then the defiant.
Lakoa would have creamed the defiant if it had used its quantum torpedoes at all, which the captain refused, while the defiant did used them.
After playing a bit fed escort for a change i don't think that escorts need any uptuffing at all.
But what would be nice if cannon and beam skills for BOs would share the same ranks, and not cannon skills start one rank higher.
More likely just corner cutting and forgotten genre information being overlooked due to the speed needed to crank out a weekly episode.
That I can agree with very much.
Since I play pve, I haven't complained about the escort's power. But I do think another balance pass is needed; the science ships are too tough defensively and too weak offensively; perhaps that's more canon but makes every pve mission with a sci vessel take longer. Since I don't die in pve with my escorts anyway I don't need the additional toughness of the sci vessel and I quit flying them. Escorts should be able to take on a sci vessel in pvp; right now it seems pretty futile one on one. Playing one one one challenge it is impossible for my escort to bring down my brother's sci vessel; by the time I weaken him much his heals have recharged and I just have to use superior speed to run away.
Cruisers also aren't offensively powered enough and perhaps too defensively powered. My main complaint with the cruiser is the boff slots. Only the Excelsior gives you Beam Overload 3 and such; it is the only Fed cruiser I play because of the boff slots. It rankles me that the biggest ship in the game can't use the biggest offensive capabilities, cannons notwithstanding.
Is it too much to ask that at vice admiral level you should have some say in how your skill layout and boffs are set up? This is your flagship; you should be able to spec out for tactical during a time of war. Universal slots is the way to go for top level ships. Universal console slots should also be allowed with caveats that there are limits on stacking consoles.
I figure in a year or two the game will go that direction. Patience is a virtue, but I admit to being bored right now flying the same ships the way they are now. Hopefully new ships will offer new gameplay options beyond the one special power they get now. The Excelsior was a good start; now we need boff layouts with other ships that compare.
Granted that the defiant has a hefty load of firepower, but even then it never destroys any cruiser sized vessel in one attack run. Usually its Dom bugships, and hey, you CAN destroy bugships in STO in one run.
Prometheus, is an escort in STO, but not in actuality. Advanced experimental assault cruiser, or somesuch. I would expect it to have more firepower than any escort really.
However it is only that, a little underpowered. I think most of that comes from the fact that the cannon skills are too high ranked for what they do and provide for a ship while the Beam Skills are sitting exactly where they need to be. Fix that and alot of the escort's problems would go away. I'd also argue that certain eng skills need to be in Lt. Like warp plasma. (why? DEM is an LT skill and is just as powerful as Warp Plasma 1... it certainly would make that LT spot more competitive.....) Giving escorts more access to zone control. If I can do it in my BOP there is no excuse even fathomable, as to why an Escort shouldn't be able to as well.
Couple that with the fact that there are alot of kindergarten level gamers in this game, trying to fly what they think looks cool getting owned constantly by gamers that have been playing videogames since they were 5 and you really end up with fun little situations. "My cruiser is too weak it needs to be buffed more!"....unfortunately for the rest of us... Cryptic rather than telling these people that frankly they have more than enough already, actually gives them more. (Aegis set being so damned good for cruisers for example). The real problem with this, is as much as this sort of thing helps the kindergamers, it benefits us hardcore gamers even more, as we min max the hell out of it. Putting an even larger gap between players rather than leveling the playing field.
I don't think escorts are particularly fragile now. They just have a hard time defeating tanking ships. There was a time when escorts were overpowered, as there was a time when sci vessels were overpowered. I stand by what I said about their relative strengths now though.