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Boring class choices - break the professions down into sub-classes

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
A lot of people like and dislike wow, but one good thing they have done is they not only have 10 classes, but each class has 3 different "trees" to train, and each tree is different, giving each player a lot to try out/experience. You can even dual-tree at level 30 so that you can switch between 2 of the 3 styles on the fly.

STO needs something like this - what you need to do is break each profession into sub classes. If you have to follow the more "traditional" format to a degree, then I will forgive you guys but for the sake of the game we need more choices.

For example, instead of simple a Tactical Profession, you could break the profession into a DPS (damage per second) sub class, a tank class, and a "middle of the road half dps/half tank class). The DPS Tac Officer would be trained to do a lot of damage but can easily get hurt. The "tank" class doesn't do as much damage but it can take hits and in a group it can get the attention of enemy soldiers ("taking agro"), etc. Each sub-class would have its own skills to learn, making each a totally different experience. The classes could still "share" the tactical kits, but each kit would do a slightly different thing for each sub-class.

Instead of an overall Science Officer, we would have three sub classes - one dealing in healing, one dealing in DOTs (damage over time) abilities, and one dealing in afflicting the targets into stasis fields, slowing them down, etc.

Engineers would be the same - all three classes could deploy phaser units, etc. but one of the 'sub classes' would be specifically suited to that task and would be able to deploy stronger units, or 'buff' the units to make them stronger, etc. Imagine if you spec in that class and could deploy some heavy hardware! Another sub-class could deal with fixing damaged emplacements and player shields, etc. - help 'buff' the shields of players.

Basically this is just one big idea, and I'm sure hearing the word "wow" already infuriated a bunch of people (which it shouldn't) but the idea of bringing in sub-classes to turn a really boring number of professions - THREE - into the potential of having NINE classes would add a LOT of depth and fun into the game:

Imagine a team of 5 players going into a mission, 2 tac officers - one a DPS specialist to do maximum damage, another a tank to protect the group, 2 engineers, one set to deploy heavy weapon emplacements and another to fix them if they get damaged and finally a scientist ready to do some minor healing but set to afflict the targets in all kinds of fields and effects.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Sooo... Letting one change their focus in the middle of a mission if its needed by changing kits is bad?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    No. If you want to play a game with lots of redundant classes, EQ2 is for you. STO already has 3 careers, with 3 ship classes with each ship class having variations; as Chat pointed out there are various kits to choose from for the ground game, and in space you can mix-up your BO skills. There is already plenty to choose from for your class. All dev resources need to be focused on content, not on appeasing ADHD players.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Chat wrote:
    Sooo... Letting one change their focus in the middle of a mission if its needed by changing kits is bad?
    Pasquatic wrote:
    No. If you want to play a game with lots of redundant classes, EQ2 is for you. STO already has 3 careers, with 3 ship classes with each ship class having variations; as Chat pointed out there are various kits to choose from for the ground game, and in space you can mix-up your BO skills. There is already plenty to choose from for your class. All dev resources need to be focused on content, not on appeasing ADHD players.

    While needlessly complicating things might be bad, the ground game could be improved by adding more specialization - maybe not classes but abilities would be great.

    Consider this: in Space combat you always get the unique benefits of your BOFFs, in ground combat (when grouped) you lose that complexity and... you mash a few buttons while moving around the map.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    While needlessly complicating things might be bad, the ground game could be improved by adding more specialization - maybe not classes but abilities would be great.

    Consider this: in Space combat you always get the unique benefits of your BOFFs, in ground combat (when grouped) you lose that complexity and... you mash a few buttons while moving around the map.
    Something akin to skills being unlocked depending on what skills you have chosen?

    Like say my Engineer levels up Explosives to 9. She gets some bomb power from it or something.
    Rather than just being able to train her BOs in it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    While I think both space and ground combat has been lacking in the abilities department....ground i feel is hurting the most....my character at lvl 51 has maybe 5 abilities without a kit. only adding three more with the kit. maybe its me, but i feel a bit lacking when it comes to resoursefulness. In other games youd have a good number of choices to help you with the differing situations you find yourself in, and considering that the explore clusters throws random mobs at you, you might not be prepped for whats thrown at you....i know people probably care with them extra kits but really i think that doesnt solve the issue.

    I think when it comes to BOs it be much easier to just have maybe two of each class and be able to fully utilize their skills in space. meaning youd have all four of their abilities at your disposal instead of whatever the ship currently compliments. this way people would be able to utilize more abilities but not to the point that theyd have every uber move at their disposal, they would have a limit on how many BOs they could field.

    Tactical Officer
    Chief Security Officer
    Operations Officer
    Chief Engineering Officer
    Chief Medical Officer
    Chief Science Officer

    They wouldnt have to take on the abilities that fullfill that role but theyd take that slot, and youd have to choose who would man the four or five slots youd be given for space combat.

    What Im saying is, While one BO might be slotted as the CMO..it doesnt mean it has to do healing...just that youd have a certian number of slots on your crew to fullfill.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Chat wrote:
    Something akin to skills being unlocked depending on what skills you have chosen?

    Like say my Engineer levels up Explosives to 9. She gets some bomb power from it or something.
    Rather than just being able to train her BOs in it.

    That or situational abilities that appear only when certain effects are done.

    What if people frozen by the Breen freeze ray could be "shattered" by TOS sonic weapons? Or The freeze ray could be used to "chill" friendlies who are under Plasma DoT fire?

    Having a rigorous but temporary system of combo abilities could extended tactics in both PvE and PvP.

    Here's a giant thread with ideas, new weapon types, and new situational pwoers from back in April:
    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=153841
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I have to agree. I myself suggested STO needs to be split into subclasses, because everyone basically blends in with every other class. For instance, Physists acting as Doctors or Doctors knowing Astrophysics? :rolleyes:

    I mean you never saw McCoy or Bashir dealing with such things, that was Spock's and Dax's job.



    Be interesting what the upcoming changes to ground is going to be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    While needlessly complicating things might be bad, the ground game could be improved by adding more specialization - maybe not classes but abilities would be great.

    Consider this: in Space combat you always get the unique benefits of your BOFFs, in ground combat (when grouped) you lose that complexity and... you mash a few buttons while moving around the map.

    This would only be made worse by more specialized classes, not better, as the range of effects any given PC would be able to choose would be even narrower.

    Expand kits, add skillbox-granted powers, maybe even allow some cross-training at a significant surcharge. Though that last idea would be fairly dependent on cutting ground and space into separate point pools to work, especially with PvP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    This would only be made worse by more specialized classes, not better, as the range of effects any given PC would be able to choose would be even narrower.

    Expand kits, add skillbox-granted powers, maybe even allow some cross-training at a significant surcharge. Though that last idea would be fairly dependent on cutting ground and space into separate point pools to work, especially with PvP.

    I think we're using specialization in different senses. When I say specialization, I mean expanding the options available from skill specialization (in addition to what we have currently). When you say it, you make it seem like I'm suggesting that there should be fewer options at a time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I think we're using specialization in different senses. When I say specialization, I mean expanding the options available from skill specialization (in addition to what we have currently). When you say it, you make it seem like I'm suggesting that there should be fewer options at a time.

    No, I know you want to expand player ability sets, especially on ground, and I agree. I'm emphasizing that splitting PCs into more classes like the OP suggests would be the worst way to do this, while the other suggestions you offered have merit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    My Science officer is specced to be a ground medic.
    Now it really doesn't show that unless he uses the medic kit.

    No clue that he is a medic without the proper gear so to speak. He got all the training done... Should he not have some skills to show that other than expert knowledge to use a certain kit?
    Like some innate tricks with a tricorder etc other than the one ones you get currently.



    Reward those who specialize without punishing those that don't.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    While I think both space and ground combat has been lacking in the abilities department....ground i feel is hurting the most....my character at lvl 51 has maybe 5 abilities without a kit. only adding three more with the kit. maybe its me, but i feel a bit lacking when it comes to resoursefulness. In other games youd have a good number of choices to help you with the differing situations you find yourself in, and considering that the explore clusters throws random mobs at you, you might not be prepped for whats thrown at you....i know people probably care with them extra kits but really i think that doesnt solve the issue.

    I think when it comes to BOs it be much easier to just have maybe two of each class and be able to fully utilize their skills in space. meaning youd have all four of their abilities at your disposal instead of whatever the ship currently compliments. this way people would be able to utilize more abilities but not to the point that theyd have every uber move at their disposal, they would have a limit on how many BOs they could field.

    Tactical Officer
    Chief Security Officer
    Operations Officer
    Chief Engineering Officer
    Chief Medical Officer
    Chief Science Officer

    They wouldnt have to take on the abilities that fullfill that role but theyd take that slot, and youd have to choose who would man the four or five slots youd be given for space combat.

    What Im saying is, While one BO might be slotted as the CMO..it doesnt mean it has to do healing...just that youd have a certian number of slots on your crew to fullfill.

    This is my gripe with the ship BO arrangements at present. I like Escorts and it allows my tactical BO to use more than one ability. However, I look at all the others and wonder what's the point of training my other BO's in more than the first space ability?

    I am a LC and my ship has two tactical slots, only one has the ability to use two skills. Why bother to train my second Tactical Officer, Engineering Officer and Science Officer in level 2 space abilities if they can't use the skills? It's just a waste of Boff points.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    No, I know you want to expand player ability sets, especially on ground, and I agree. I'm emphasizing that splitting PCs into more classes like the OP suggests would be the worst way to do this, while the other suggestions you offered have merit.

    Oh, yes, we agree there: however, specialization != splitting the classes. While the original poster might want to split them, I don't.

    However, I would like to see new abilities or combos offered by maxing ground skills to rank 9 (sort of a capstone boost ability, to incentivize players into investing in ground points)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Oh, yes, we agree there: however, specialization != splitting the classes. While the original poster might want to split them, I don't.

    However, I would like to see new abilities or combos offered by maxing ground skills to rank 9 (sort of a capstone boost ability, to incentivize players into investing in ground points)

    Right.

    I was saying I pretty much agree with you. I just said it badly :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Right.

    I was saying I pretty much agree with you. I just said it badly :p

    I tend to be so precise as to sound argumentative. :p My bad.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I would agree that we need more diversity in classes.

    Perhaps:

    Science Officer -
    Medic (ground heals)
    Bio-weapon specialist (Damage Over Time through infections, etc)
    Ground Interference specialist (Mechanical debuffs - such as shield drains, etc)

    Tactical Officer -
    Energy Weapons Specialist (increased dps through energy weapons)
    Martial Arts Specialist (increased hand-to-hand combat with fists or melee weapons)
    Stealth Team Specialist (using stealth technology to surprise enemies - like a rogue)

    Engineer
    Fabrication Specialist (increased efficiency for ground fabrications and additional unique ground fabrications)
    Shield specialist (increased ground personal shield maintenance)
    (Can't think of another at the moment! =)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I would agree that we need more diversity in classes.

    Perhaps:

    Science Officer -
    Medic (ground heals)
    Bio-weapon specialist (Damage Over Time through infections, etc)
    Ground Interference specialist (Mechanical debuffs - such as shield drains, etc)

    Tactical Officer -
    Energy Weapons Specialist (increased dps through energy weapons)
    Martial Arts Specialist (increased hand-to-hand combat with fists or melee weapons)
    Stealth Team Specialist (using stealth technology to surprise enemies - like a rogue)

    Engineer
    Fabrication Specialist (increased efficiency for ground fabrications and additional unique ground fabrications)
    Shield specialist (increased ground personal shield maintenance)
    (Can't think of another at the moment! =)

    Except that you can already do all that by kit and skill choice.

    If I only spend points in skills the boost my healing skills as a science officer...dose that not already make me a medical specialist? And while I can be flexible and use other kits. I wont be nearly as effective using abilities that haven't been skilled up as much.

    This whole thing just seems like another way to divide up the skill tree so we can have both dedicated space skills and ground skills. And I think the fact that we have to choose, and make hard choices on skills is the best form of specialization out there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    captnwan wrote: »
    Except that you can already do all that by kit and skill choice.

    If I only spend points in skills the boost my healing skills as a science officer...dose that not already make me a medical specialist? And while I can be flexible and use other kits. I wont be nearly as effective using abilities that haven't been skilled up as much.

    This whole thing just seems like another way to divide up the skill tree so we can have both dedicated space skills and ground skills. And I think the fact that we have to choose, and make hard choices on skills is the best form of specialization out there.

    Couldn't of said it better myself. I think the op just wants new abilities for capping skills.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~GM Tiyshen
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    This would only be made worse by more specialized classes, not better, as the range of effects any given PC would be able to choose would be even narrower.

    Expand kits, add skillbox-granted powers, maybe even allow some cross-training at a significant surcharge. Though that last idea would be fairly dependent on cutting ground and space into separate point pools to work, especially with PvP.

    You got me thinking. Perhaps we could see a combination of cross skills and specialized skills.


    For instance, every class has access to basic Medical Training, which grants minor heals. And those who choose the Medical Specality can grant superior heals. And everyone having access to basic Martial Arts, which aids in increasing survivability in melee combat (such as the infamous Klingon Swordmaster), but Tacticals would have access to Advanced Martial Arts which would include offensive training such as in Melee Weaponry.

    The best thing about it is that it fits in Trek. Worf had basic Medical Training and delivered Molly O'Brien, Miles O'Brien had Tactical experience (from his war days).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Azurian wrote: »
    stuff

    Agreed in entirety.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Someone mentioned switching kits - you know what? Those kits don't make that big a difference. Someone else mentioned a smashing of buttons ftw, and they're also correct but that is something Cryptic is working on. I still feel that we need more "classes" because I know I'm bored with 3 classes (and 10+ toons lol) and I'm sure a majority of people also agree "3 professions? Thatzzit?"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Someone mentioned switching kits - you know what? Those kits don't make that big a difference. Someone else mentioned a smashing of buttons ftw, and they're also correct but that is something Cryptic is working on. I still feel that we need more "classes" because I know I'm bored with 3 classes (and 10+ toons lol) and I'm sure a majority of people also agree "3 professions? Thatzzit?"

    Except each class already has so little to do... what would more classes with narrower slices of that accomplish?

    Adding more to the existing ones instead of wasting time and effort splitting them up might actually do something...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Forget classes, simply remove them altogether. Let the skills the player chooses what he can do.
    Besides every player character is in the Command path anyway by virtue of been the captain of a ship.
    Call the field he has the most skill points allocated in his field for expertise and use that for the level bonus
    skills he gets as captain.
    Also remove the restriction what captain can train which skills. If i have beam weapons at 9 i should be
    able to train it, I'm already the best there is with beam weapons. I don't have to be a tactical for example.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Except each class already has so little to do... what would more classes with narrower slices of that accomplish?.

    You realize that is a very sad point you made, right? And therin lies the major problem - they need to redo the skills, a complete overhaul.

    Not to point to WOW too much but they've overhauled their skill systems at least 3-4 times working on balance and ease of use, and their latest system is pretty damn good. I think Cryptic has changed the system 1 time, and in that one time they just tweaked stuff.

    They can't just tweak stuff they need to overhaul it!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    we have 3 classes that can use 4 different kits each so 3x4 =12 ground classes id say

    we have 3 classes that have access to on average 4 different endgame ships with different bo layouts = 12 space classes
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010

    Not to point to WOW too much

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with referencing WoW. They are successful and do many things right. Unless the developers are too full of pride (which I don't think they are - as stahl plays WoW), they would be wise to at least investigate some of the things they do. (Like dungeon finder, classes, etc).

    I think after a year, people are just looking for more diversity in a game. Having 3 classes and essentially 3 (with a few hybrid) ship classes is simply not a lot of choices, especially with the limited content that we have in this game. Giving more class choices would give us more fun ways to make the game interesting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    You realize that is a very sad point you made, right? And therin lies the major problem - they need to redo the skills, a complete overhaul.

    Yes. But wasting time differentiating out additional classes, rather than reworking the existing ones, will only dilute the overhaul work.
    Giving more class choices would give us more fun ways to make the game interesting.

    How? By making individual characters able to choose less things to do at any given time?

    What is needed, especially on ground, is to add a lot more options a PC can access.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    This game is Star Trek thats why we dont have 10 classes(or more).

    An engineer is engineer,you cant make 3 classes from it(same with tacticals).It can work with science(but just 2 subclasses:scientist(like Spock)and Doctor(like Bashir).Maybe counselor could be a class too(I know,its not the best idea but I saw nothing else on Star Trek ships...and the liberated borg is already a race and not a class).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    The problematic of classes and class specific skills is that they affect the efficiency of BOs in your away team as well. If for instance you train your engeneer capatain in fabrication of drones and turrets, equip the corresponding kit and compose your away team of four engeneers creating drones and turrets, you will get a surviable away team capable of killing everything in no time as result - something you would not be able to achieve as a science or as a tactical captain.

    Therefore i think that it would be better if your captain could train any skill with resulting abilities determining his actual "class". But this obviously would not fit with the current class specific kit system, as side remark.
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