First a disclaimer and I'm hoping everyone in this thread will adhere to it: This is in no way singularly pointed at Dan or Stormy, just a question sent out to Cryptic.
In the future could we please get clearer guidelines on what is going to be earnable in game and what is going to be C-Store only products. And by clearer I mean some time before the product hits release day or the C-Store.
I'm going to use the Grumba as an example simply because its the latest one to appear,
Months have past since it's inception and at no time did anyone from Cryptic say this ship was to be C-Store only, I accept at the start of the thought process it probably wasnt going to be or intended as C-Sore only purchase but now it is and theres fallout because of it. I also accept that at no point did anyone say that it would be earnable in game, I could quote some famous lines from a Star Trek film here (The undiscovered Country) between Spock and Valeris but I think you get the point.
What I'm asking is for future releases that Cryptic acutaly man up a bit and say 'Ok in the next few months we got 4 new Klingon ships on the way BUT one of them WILL be C-Store'. The same applies to the fed side and any future factions that make it into game, I mean come on you must know these things before launch day, Even if it is only by days.
I'm still willing to stick with this game not only because I'm a lifer but because I enjoy it but pushing F2P value store items on a paying populus is asking too much.
Here endeth the rant for the year...
Happy Christmas everybody and have a cracking new year,
...I'm still willing to stick with this game not only because I'm a lifer but because I enjoy it but pushing F2P value store items on a paying populous is asking too much.
In my experience, F2P stores contain items that boost character attributes and increase in-game rewards, i.e. time-savers meant to remove or decrease various in-game time-sinks, not to mention quest-packs like LoTRO's store, this is not the case with any of the items Cryptic put in their store.
I appreciate your point but missed it entiely, could you elaborate pls.
also as far as I know LOTRO is charging the equivalent of 2k cryptic points for mounts but they are a F2P game and If i beleive the press right they are making more money now than they were b4 so read into that what u will.
I appreciate your point but missed it entiely, could you elaborate pls.
also as far as I know LOTRO is charging the equivalent of 2k cryptic points for mounts but they are a F2P game and If i beleive the press right they are making more money now than they were b4 so read into that what u will.
Off-topic: Except if they "making more money" they aren't really "free-2-play". At to LOTRO making more money....perhaps. However, I think it is from many people coming back and re-subbing rather then those paying for things on the store. Numbers (of people) have been good but that could be because people are either using the "free" portion as a trial OR are just biding time till some other game comes along.
On-topic: I am really not for anything on the C-store that is exclusive to the C-store. I think that everything should be obtainable in game IF we are paying a sub. When things are both sub AND store, I feel I am not getting my money's worth.
On-topic: I am really not for anything on the C-store that is exclusive to the C-store. I think that everything should be obtainable in game IF we are paying a sub. When things are both sub AND store, I feel I am not getting my money's worth.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely spot on......the above quote is the crux of all the arguments going on today on the forums...STO is a sub based gamed but we are being charged F2p prices for stuff in the C-Store.
(and yes from testing the garumba is far better than the GX, keep an eye on the PvP forums for more details)
Absolutely spot on......the above quote is the crux of all the arguments going on today on the forums...STO is a sub based gamed but we are being charged F2p prices for stuff in the C-Store.
(and yes from testing the garumba is far better than the GX, keep an eye on the PvP forums for more details)
Do you need the items in the C store to beat the game? If not, then they are just "need" items and the dev's take the time to make these need items and need to be compensated for taking the time to design them. Why complain when they give you options? They could just as easily stop putting items on the c store and just continue game content only.
Do you need the items in the C store to beat the game? If not, then they are just "need" items and the dev's take the time to make these need items and need to be compensated for taking the time to design them. Why complain when they give you options? They could just as easily stop putting items on the c store and just continue game content only.
The bit in red is mostley about what ppl are posting today...for a Pay to Play subscription MMO we should not need to pay out for this kind of development...it should be covered by the monthly cost. C-Store items in this environment are then fluff only items which only enhance your visual gameplay...the garumba although different is a powerful ship ( a lot more than a GX) and PVP in the next week or so will tell out.
The bit in red is mostley about what ppl are posting today...for a Pay to Play subscription MMO we should not need to pay out for this kind of development...it should be covered by the monthly cost. C-Store items in this environment are then fluff only items which only enhance your visual gameplay...the garumba although different is a powerful ship ( a lot more than a GX) and PVP in the next week or so will tell out.
In which PvP did you take it? I've found numerous threads already that down play that ship including my own fleet members that beta test and tribble test. Lack of turning, unable to do anything during mode changing, javelin on par with lance, etc.......
Also, we pay a measily 15 bucks a month to access a server. So for 50 cents a day you feel like you should have access to items that may take a dev a week to make and get working correctly?
In which PvP did you take it? I've found numerous threads already that down play that ship including my own fleet members that beta test and tribble test. Lack of turning, unable to do anything during mode changing, javelin on par with lance, etc.......
Also, we pay a measily 15 bucks a month to access a server. So for 50 cents a day you feel like you should have access to items that may take a dev a week to make and get working correctly?
problem with Tribble testing is that you dont get the full effect of the actual game. PvP is a constant evolving beast. when you have hundreds upon hundreds of people competing against each other and constantly tweaking things to get the upper hand. Anything "tested" in PvP can instantly take a turn for better or worse on the Holodeck.
I heard up and down how Borg Sets were going to pwn in PvP...well now that its in Holo, Ive heard the opposite. That Aegis is pwning. I havent seen it so until I do I can only take it as heresay, but the point is that what we expect from what we see in Tribble isnt always what we get here on holodeck.
also, the fifteen bucks a month? thats payed by thousands of people, if it was a few hundred yeah it be understandable to charge twentyfive dollars for a ship. but the fact is, this game gets a hellofa lot more money then it costs to pay for upkeep of servers, dev paychecks and cryptics higherups wallets. So the truth is, Cryptic is sitting on enough money to continue to develop this game, but are still holding their hand out for Cstore. Im okay with paying for some fluff..but at this time i seriously think it was a bad decision to put a ship on the Cstore exclusively when the Klinks are no wheres near on par with the Feds.
Also, we pay a measily 15 bucks a month to access a server. So for 50 cents a day you feel like you should have access to items that may take a dev a week to make and get working correctly?
Yup, I would. Because there's lots of us.
But if you want to talk money versus what you get, consider the following: Cataclysm, the new WoW expansion. That's 5 new levels. New solo quests. New zones. New items.New raids. And before the next expansion comes out, several more raids added for free. This costs $40 dollars. And this isn't just WoW, this is pretty typical for other games as well.
So, for 62.5% of that price, we get...a single ship. WTF.
On-topic: I am really not for anything on the C-store that is exclusive to the C-store. I think that everything should be obtainable in game IF we are paying a sub. When things are both sub AND store, I feel I am not getting my money's worth.
See, this is the sort of complaint that Cryptic addressed pre-launch - while already in the process of selling subscriptions - by stating in very clear terms that nothing that affected gameplay* would be put in the C-store without being obtainable in-game too.
Well after the window for getting LTS refunds had elapsed, this became a lie. And yes, I'm bitter. I'm so bitter you could use me to render soap.
*not 'game balance', not 'might be better but you can still complete the whole game without it'
See, this is the sort of complaint that Cryptic addressed pre-launch - while already in the process of selling subscriptions - by stating in very clear terms that nothing that affected gameplay* would be put in the C-store without being obtainable in-game too.
Well after the window for getting LTS refunds had elapsed, this became a lie. And yes, I'm bitter. I'm so bitter you could use me to render soap.
*not 'game balance', not 'might be better but you can still complete the whole game without it'
Sorry I don't see it the same as you do....
I have no issue with stuff being put into the C-Store if it helps lets say bring in another game content provider (new employee) for this game.
As long as most of what is collected from the C-Store is used to put more into the game, then as I said before I am fine with it as it is.....
I have no issue with stuff being put into the C-Store if it helps lets say bring in another game content provider (new employee) for this game.
As long as most of what is collected from the C-Store is used to put more into the game, then as I said before I am fine with it as it is.....
That viewpoint is pretty naive. Simple profit motive, really. The more money C-store items make, the more profit is to be made from focusing on the C-store.
Also, I believe that things like "doing what you say you're going to do" have value, and that a company that doesn't do this can't be trusted to do squat. Seeing the number of things that have been left by the wayside over these ten months and seeing how far short every game system old and new has fallen of what they've said was coming...
That viewpoint is pretty naive. Simple profit motive, really. The more money C-store items make, the more profit is to be made from focusing on the C-store.
Also, I believe that things like "doing what you say you're going to do" have value, and that a company that doesn't do this can't be trusted to do squat. Seeing the number of things that have been left by the wayside over these ten months and seeing how far short every game system old and new has fallen of what they've said was coming...
Nieve ? Heh maybe, but then may be not :rolleyes:
It could also be your view is short-sighted and that you are not looking at the bigger picture.
As I said I don't share your view, thats MY opinion, if a majority of the money collected is put back into the game then I see it as another method of continued support for this game. It is a game but it is also a business, no one is forcing you to purchase anything from the C-Store and there is nothing sold there that is game breaking or a I-Win.
Also keep in mind that MMO subs have been the same 14.99 sub fee since before the market went down. so 14.99 now just isn't worth what it was 5 years ago.
Companies determined that It would be more profitable to do a Store/sub modle than raising the price of 20.99 or higher.
i mean would you pay $20 bucks for an MMO? or even 17? you might, but many many more would not. So the in game stores are there to make up for normal inflation and rising costs. It's not just STO or F2P MMO's; many MMO's are jumping on that bandwagon and will continue to do so until the market will allow them to raise their subscription prices.
Not to defend them throwing stuff in without notice or setting the expectation that a given item will be put into the c-store... but that is kinda how the cookie crumbles. If MMO's can't make the extra money one way or another, you can bet that they will shut down the servers and stop making MMO's and go to something more profitable.
Also keep in mind that MMO subs have been the same 14.99 sub fee since before the market went down. so 14.99 now just isn't worth what it was 5 years ago.
Companies determined that It would be more profitable to do a Store/sub modle than raising the price of 20.99 or higher.
i mean would you pay $20 bucks for an MMO? or even 17? you might, but many many more would not. So the in game stores are there to make up for normal inflation and rising costs. It's not just STO or F2P MMO's; many MMO's are jumping on that bandwagon and will continue to do so until the market will allow them to raise their subscription prices.
Not to defend them throwing stuff in without notice or setting the expectation that a given item will be put into the c-store... but that is kinda how the cookie crumbles. If MMO's can't make the extra money one way or another, you can bet that they will shut down the servers and stop making MMO's and go to something more profitable.
Thing is, they laid out a store model prior to launch. What they would put in, what they wouldn't. I supported the model they claimed they would follow. Vocally. I bought stuff. Other people bought stuff. Even the stuff that was complete TRIBBLE like the Imperial. They had an extra revenue stream. And they said, at that point, financials were rosy.
Then they started putting in the gameplay-affecting stuff they said they wouldn't, and for prices that blew the purely cosmetic stuff that they had been selling out of the water.
Now, if this had accompianied a complete change in business model - like CO will be doing before it starts selling any gameplay-affecting items - that would be one thing. But this is double-dipping in a way that they explicitly said they wouldn't, when supposedly finances were sound. So there's a web of lies somewhere in there.
Thing is, they laid out a store model prior to launch. What they would put in, what they wouldn't. I supported the model they claimed they would follow. Vocally. I bought stuff. Other people bought stuff. Even the stuff that was complete TRIBBLE like the Imperial. They had an extra revenue stream. And they said, at that point, financials were rosy.
Then they started putting in the gameplay-affecting stuff they said they wouldn't, and for prices that blew the purely cosmetic stuff that they had been selling out of the water.
Now, if this had accompianied a complete change in business model - like CO will be doing before it starts selling any gameplay-affecting items - that would be one thing. But this is double-dipping in a way that they explicitly said they wouldn't, when supposedly finances were sound. So there's a web of lies somewhere in there.
I partly agree with you. They are certainly gameplay affecting, but they don't give you a competitive edge. Yea, i found that to be a really low blow, but technically they aren't double dipping because F2P stores are all about items that give you an extreme edge over people no making purchases. So while you lose out on the options if you don't pay up, you are technically not less competitive in doing so.
So pretty much a low blow, and i was upset by that too. But they are doing what businesses do and walk that very fine line that upsets people, but not enough for them to take huge losses. I don't like it, but i also didn't expect anything different, nor would i of any company i do business with.
True, and c-store is run by cryptic marketing. They are looking for the profit and dstahl is looking out for us. At the end of the day though, even dstahl has a boss above him (atari). He probably picks and chooses his battles wisely. Give him time and hopefully he can get that ship in game for those that wish that.
Also this is stated on wikipedia under MMO's.
The money spent averages out to $15.10 between both subscription and free-to-play MMO gamers
We can go F2P, but everything we have right now would probably be put in the c-store and cost to buy it. Or, keep things the way they are and continue to get free game content added. MMO's are stil profit driven by the owners regardless what the player base wants.
Also, we pay a measily 15 bucks a month to access a server. So for 50 cents a day you feel like you should have access to items that may take a dev a week to make and get working correctly?
Other games do it. WOW, EverQuest, Eve and a few more. Lots of new content in those games and never a whisper about a cash shop. I agree with the OP, it's either F2P with a cash shop or subs based without but not both. The subs are the same price as most other subs based MMO's so, even saying that an increase in subs to pay for it is out of the question. As the game grows, more subs will more than pay for new content so this is pure greed at the moment. It's also a reason why 3 of my friends (and no doubt lots of other players) have refused to subscribe to it.
As I've said in another thread, Some CS items give bonuses like the Tribble Pets and such so it's more like a F2P/Pay2Win system. If this was simply a shortcut to avoid the grind to get the item, it wouldn't be so bad but these items are just not available in game unless you part with even more cash. I'm not on about buying it to trade in game either, that's what kills the economy in double quick time in F2P games. Buy it or grind for it, things available through the CS should be non-tradeable or it becomes a RL money for EC scam, people become rich quick and in-game prices subsequently go skyrocket.
In addition, if I was to buy a ship for 25 bucks and it turned out to be a complete lemon, I'd want my money back. It's bad enough parting with EC for a ship to try it out but to spend RL money only to find out it's a pile of s**t is another matter.
Other games do it. WOW, EverQuest, Eve and a few more. Lots of new content in those games and never a whisper about a cash shop. I agree with the OP, it's either F2P with a cash shop or subs based without but not both. The subs are the same price as most other subs based MMO's so, even saying that an increase in subs to pay for it is out of the question. As the game grows, more subs will more than pay for new content so this is pure greed at the moment. It's also a reason why 3 of my friends (and no doubt lots of other players) have refused to subscribe to it.
As I've said in another thread, Some CS items give bonuses like the Tribble Pets and such so it's more like a F2P/Pay2Win system. If this was simply a shortcut to avoid the grind to get the item, it wouldn't be so bad but these items are just not available in game unless you part with even more cash. I'm not on about buying it to trade in game either, that's what kills the economy in double quick time in F2P games. Buy it or grind for it, things available through the CS should be non-tradeable or it becomes a RL money for EC scam, people become rich quick and in-game prices subsequently go skyrocket.
In addition, if I was to buy a ship for 25 bucks and it turned out to be a complete lemon, I'd want my money back. It's bad enough parting with EC for a ship to try it out but to spend RL money only to find out it's a pile of s**t is another matter.
Agreed, I spent the money on the Gal-x. Not entirely happy but I will still play with it from time to time. Do I want my money back? Not really, it was impulse driven to buy it. Lesson learned. I know we want to play and have fun, because this is something we like to do. But, those that flipped the buck to make the game are going to want to make their buck back 5 fold.
Other games do it. WOW, EverQuest, Eve and a few more. Lots of new content in those games and never a whisper about a cash shop.
They do have cash shops...
EQ recently got one.
WoW is selling expensive pets.
EVE got PLEX and probably an actual cash shop soon... I think... Something about using PLEX to buy respecs and stuff in the future.
Other games do it. WOW, EverQuest, Eve and a few more. Lots of new content in those games and never a whisper about a cash shop. I agree with the OP, it's either F2P with a cash shop or subs based without but not both.
Eve sells Game time that can be sold In game for millions of ISK.
WOW make you pay for server transfers and respect. That is a Cash Store. On top that they sell a stupid card game that no one plays, but still buys whole boxes of them because they give cool in game stuff, Now that is sleazy. you could blow $80 and not get anything.
Everquest apparently has a Cash store now.
so yea, As i said most MMOs have a cash store because $15 bucks a month doesn't quite cut it anymore. So your opinion of how a subscription MMO should work is basically not practiced by anyone, so your friends are not playing the game for a very poorly thought out reason.
Give me one instance of a cash shop selling items that offer a bonus in game, apart from selling in game for game money, (and totally TRIBBLE up the economy in the process).
We have pets that give a resist bonus and damage bonus, BOff extra races that give bonuses, Extra BO slots so you can rotate your crew for better buffs acording to the situation and so on. All the CS items you mention in the other games don't offer any benefits in game. To do so just turns a game into a pay2win, a wallet based game.
While I would have no objection to using the cash shop as a means to avoid the grind for some items, anything that gives benefits in game should be available in game. Cash shop should be for casual players with little time to farm items (or those too lazy to) but those with the time to spend farming can obtain the items without forking out RL cash. With the current economic situation, people don't have that sort of disposable cash.
I'm not talking about something that will take months to finally get (if you're lucky) either, that sort of system is why I uninstalled Allods, as well as their greed by making NPC's so hard you had to buy incense from the cash shop. Their servers were almost empty after that patch, I wonder why?
Eso yea, As i said most MMOs have a cash store because $15 bucks a month doesn't quite cut it anymore. So your opinion of how a subscription MMO should work is basically not practiced by anyone, so your friends are not playing the game for a very poorly thought out reason.
It isn't because $15 doesn't cut it, but rather that players are willing to buy that stuff, enough of it at the price asked that it is quite profitable. The companies go where the money is.
Part of it is the same reason the LotRO model works. It creates a tiered system. You get X from one group, but another group, the one more willing to spend cash, you get X + Y from. And even those that prefer not to buy, you put the right bait out and they'll get just that thing.
Part of it is also because we consumers aren't always very bright. We'll complain about paying $20 a month, that's 240 dollars a year! But paying $15 a month, that's okay. And if we then spend $10 on something from the store, that is just skipping going out to eat or to the movies or something, no big deal. Even if we do it once a month. And so we wind up averaging $25 dollars a month.
And that is why, for example, we get all sorts of clothing packs in the C-store when art that should be part of the core game is missing on the Klingon side. For example, armor and kits have no graphics for Klingons. Why we get different bridges when what we really need is those artists to put together maps for more content, more missions.
I look forward to the day when STO goes to LotRO model of F2P. Yup, they haven't said they will. But I believe it is inevitable, unless they really manage to TRIBBLE it up with CO. And when it happens, I expect subscribers will get about the same as we get now, plus points to spend. So overall, we'll come out ahead.
Give me one instance of a cash shop selling items that offer a bonus in game, apart from selling in game for game money, (and totally TRIBBLE up the economy in the process).
We have pets that give a resist bonus and damage bonus, BOff extra races that give bonuses, Extra BO slots so you can rotate your crew for better buffs acording to the situation and so on. All the CS items you mention in the other games don't offer any benefits in game. To do so just turns a game into a pay2win, a wallet based game.
?
Well now you are just trying to split hairs with me. You concede to the fact that these games you mentioned to in fact have cash shops, and now you are saying "but they don't do it this certain way that Cryptic does". :rolleyes:
The extra Races and Boff's don't really offer anything more or less powered than the other races, so the only reason you would get that race is if you liked the race and wanted to play one. The Boff doesn't give you anything all that great either, it's just so you can be "OMG I gotz teh borg in my ship, i'm gonna name her 6 of 9!". PLUS there is a Borg bridge officer available IN GAME with the same abilities but different visuals.
You sort of have a valid point with the extra Boff slots, except that you really have all the flexibility you need with the current slots. You can only spec into so many skills, and you can retrain your current boffs, and you still have room for secondary abilities. So if you find you can't compete with someone with 30 Boffs, then the issue is you and your build.
While buying c-store items can expand your playability options, there are no "must haves" in order to compete in any aspect of the game.
Liek i said, i don't necessarily agree with the current model, but i hate it when folks spread misinformation or throw wild accusations with no backing, intentional or otherwise.
I have no issue with stuff being put into the C-Store if it helps lets say bring in another game content provider (new employee) for this game.
As long as most of what is collected from the C-Store is used to put more into the game, then as I said before I am fine with it as it is.....
Because you know everything that goes on behind the scenes at Cryptic and thus are in the perfect position to comment. Grow up and stop making assumptions.
I appreciate your point but missed it entirely, could you elaborate pls.
A few months ago, I was checking the prospect of getting back into LoTRO because of the whole F2P thing. I did my research and found some sort of "Ask Turbine" type of post where one of the devs (I forget the complete details) was asked about what will a F2P player experience in LoTRO. The dev eventually admitted that beyond a certain level (I think it was Lv35) the player would have to purchase quest-packs to continue and progress any kind of story in their adventures.
The LOTRO Store is loaded with thousands of convenience items as well as expansion packs, premium content, additional character slots, potions, character customization and more. The LOTRO Store is seamlessly integrated into the game and lets the player identify new and exciting ways to enhance and customize their experience, using Turbine Points which can be purchased in the Store or earned through gameplay.
My point is, as long as Cryptic is selling only vanity items (ships, races, clothing) which do not give you distinct PvE advantages and most of their C-Store ships are obtainable by other ways than just the C-Store, I can't really agree that Cryptic's C-Store is like any other F2P store.
Another point to mention, if the C-Store was truly a F2P store, then only the character you buy a ship with, would have access to that ship. Instead, when you buy a ship on the C-Store, all your current and future characters gain access to that ship if they're at the right level!
I've never heard of a F2P store selling you items that are usable on your entire account and all your characters without the item eventually disappearing, so if anything you should compare the C-Store to WoW's store or the store NCSoft has for City of Heroes.
Because you know everything that goes on behind the scenes at Cryptic and thus are in the perfect position to comment. Grow up and stop making assumptions.
I am afraid you are the one acting like a spoiled child here, maybe you need to grow up and learn how a real BUSINESS model works. Sounds like you have never worked a job where a business model is needed.
I also see you are a "LTS" big deal. I am tired of seeing the LTS like you who think they are somehow more privilaged than those of us that pay monthly from the start of the game and want everything handed to them just because of it. In a few more months the revenue they need to run the game from you will be used up, at that point you become " DEAD WEIGHT " to the game.
Without the C-Store you are useless to the continued growth of this game.....
I would totally agree with giving you something when your LTS is used up, how about the accolade "Dead Weight" ?
Now show me a subscription-only game that sells classes piecemeal for half the price of whole expansions. Even if you can, it probably sucks.
But it's also irrelevant. Ships with different BO/console/weapon layouts and special abilities affect the very core of gameplay. These ships are anything but vanity items, and the clear and oft-repeated promise in response to pre-launch objections to the sub+MT model was that nothing gameplay-affecting would be only available in the C-store.
Cryptic's mouthpieces have repeatedly moved the goalposts, and even the platitudes that dstahl has offered have now been shown to be meaningless.
Well, I'd still be buying stuff if they had kept to their word...
You fail to see what is right in front of you....
To you its a GAME, to them its a BUSINESS and businesses need to make money. I am sure if you were on their payroll you would see it in a different light. :rolleyes:
Comments
also as far as I know LOTRO is charging the equivalent of 2k cryptic points for mounts but they are a F2P game and If i beleive the press right they are making more money now than they were b4 so read into that what u will.
Off-topic: Except if they "making more money" they aren't really "free-2-play". At to LOTRO making more money....perhaps. However, I think it is from many people coming back and re-subbing rather then those paying for things on the store. Numbers (of people) have been good but that could be because people are either using the "free" portion as a trial OR are just biding time till some other game comes along.
On-topic: I am really not for anything on the C-store that is exclusive to the C-store. I think that everything should be obtainable in game IF we are paying a sub. When things are both sub AND store, I feel I am not getting my money's worth.
Absolutely spot on......the above quote is the crux of all the arguments going on today on the forums...STO is a sub based gamed but we are being charged F2p prices for stuff in the C-Store.
(and yes from testing the garumba is far better than the GX, keep an eye on the PvP forums for more details)
Do you need the items in the C store to beat the game? If not, then they are just "need" items and the dev's take the time to make these need items and need to be compensated for taking the time to design them. Why complain when they give you options? They could just as easily stop putting items on the c store and just continue game content only.
The bit in red is mostley about what ppl are posting today...for a Pay to Play subscription MMO we should not need to pay out for this kind of development...it should be covered by the monthly cost. C-Store items in this environment are then fluff only items which only enhance your visual gameplay...the garumba although different is a powerful ship ( a lot more than a GX) and PVP in the next week or so will tell out.
In which PvP did you take it? I've found numerous threads already that down play that ship including my own fleet members that beta test and tribble test. Lack of turning, unable to do anything during mode changing, javelin on par with lance, etc.......
Also, we pay a measily 15 bucks a month to access a server. So for 50 cents a day you feel like you should have access to items that may take a dev a week to make and get working correctly?
problem with Tribble testing is that you dont get the full effect of the actual game. PvP is a constant evolving beast. when you have hundreds upon hundreds of people competing against each other and constantly tweaking things to get the upper hand. Anything "tested" in PvP can instantly take a turn for better or worse on the Holodeck.
I heard up and down how Borg Sets were going to pwn in PvP...well now that its in Holo, Ive heard the opposite. That Aegis is pwning. I havent seen it so until I do I can only take it as heresay, but the point is that what we expect from what we see in Tribble isnt always what we get here on holodeck.
also, the fifteen bucks a month? thats payed by thousands of people, if it was a few hundred yeah it be understandable to charge twentyfive dollars for a ship. but the fact is, this game gets a hellofa lot more money then it costs to pay for upkeep of servers, dev paychecks and cryptics higherups wallets. So the truth is, Cryptic is sitting on enough money to continue to develop this game, but are still holding their hand out for Cstore. Im okay with paying for some fluff..but at this time i seriously think it was a bad decision to put a ship on the Cstore exclusively when the Klinks are no wheres near on par with the Feds.
Yup, I would. Because there's lots of us.
But if you want to talk money versus what you get, consider the following: Cataclysm, the new WoW expansion. That's 5 new levels. New solo quests. New zones. New items.New raids. And before the next expansion comes out, several more raids added for free. This costs $40 dollars. And this isn't just WoW, this is pretty typical for other games as well.
So, for 62.5% of that price, we get...a single ship. WTF.
See, this is the sort of complaint that Cryptic addressed pre-launch - while already in the process of selling subscriptions - by stating in very clear terms that nothing that affected gameplay* would be put in the C-store without being obtainable in-game too.
Well after the window for getting LTS refunds had elapsed, this became a lie. And yes, I'm bitter. I'm so bitter you could use me to render soap.
*not 'game balance', not 'might be better but you can still complete the whole game without it'
Sorry I don't see it the same as you do....
I have no issue with stuff being put into the C-Store if it helps lets say bring in another game content provider (new employee) for this game.
As long as most of what is collected from the C-Store is used to put more into the game, then as I said before I am fine with it as it is.....
That viewpoint is pretty naive. Simple profit motive, really. The more money C-store items make, the more profit is to be made from focusing on the C-store.
Also, I believe that things like "doing what you say you're going to do" have value, and that a company that doesn't do this can't be trusted to do squat. Seeing the number of things that have been left by the wayside over these ten months and seeing how far short every game system old and new has fallen of what they've said was coming...
Nieve ? Heh maybe, but then may be not :rolleyes:
It could also be your view is short-sighted and that you are not looking at the bigger picture.
As I said I don't share your view, thats MY opinion, if a majority of the money collected is put back into the game then I see it as another method of continued support for this game. It is a game but it is also a business, no one is forcing you to purchase anything from the C-Store and there is nothing sold there that is game breaking or a I-Win.
Nothing....
Companies determined that It would be more profitable to do a Store/sub modle than raising the price of 20.99 or higher.
i mean would you pay $20 bucks for an MMO? or even 17? you might, but many many more would not. So the in game stores are there to make up for normal inflation and rising costs. It's not just STO or F2P MMO's; many MMO's are jumping on that bandwagon and will continue to do so until the market will allow them to raise their subscription prices.
Not to defend them throwing stuff in without notice or setting the expectation that a given item will be put into the c-store... but that is kinda how the cookie crumbles. If MMO's can't make the extra money one way or another, you can bet that they will shut down the servers and stop making MMO's and go to something more profitable.
Thing is, they laid out a store model prior to launch. What they would put in, what they wouldn't. I supported the model they claimed they would follow. Vocally. I bought stuff. Other people bought stuff. Even the stuff that was complete TRIBBLE like the Imperial. They had an extra revenue stream. And they said, at that point, financials were rosy.
Then they started putting in the gameplay-affecting stuff they said they wouldn't, and for prices that blew the purely cosmetic stuff that they had been selling out of the water.
Now, if this had accompianied a complete change in business model - like CO will be doing before it starts selling any gameplay-affecting items - that would be one thing. But this is double-dipping in a way that they explicitly said they wouldn't, when supposedly finances were sound. So there's a web of lies somewhere in there.
I partly agree with you. They are certainly gameplay affecting, but they don't give you a competitive edge. Yea, i found that to be a really low blow, but technically they aren't double dipping because F2P stores are all about items that give you an extreme edge over people no making purchases. So while you lose out on the options if you don't pay up, you are technically not less competitive in doing so.
So pretty much a low blow, and i was upset by that too. But they are doing what businesses do and walk that very fine line that upsets people, but not enough for them to take huge losses. I don't like it, but i also didn't expect anything different, nor would i of any company i do business with.
Also this is stated on wikipedia under MMO's.
We can go F2P, but everything we have right now would probably be put in the c-store and cost to buy it. Or, keep things the way they are and continue to get free game content added. MMO's are stil profit driven by the owners regardless what the player base wants.
Other games do it. WOW, EverQuest, Eve and a few more. Lots of new content in those games and never a whisper about a cash shop. I agree with the OP, it's either F2P with a cash shop or subs based without but not both. The subs are the same price as most other subs based MMO's so, even saying that an increase in subs to pay for it is out of the question. As the game grows, more subs will more than pay for new content so this is pure greed at the moment. It's also a reason why 3 of my friends (and no doubt lots of other players) have refused to subscribe to it.
As I've said in another thread, Some CS items give bonuses like the Tribble Pets and such so it's more like a F2P/Pay2Win system. If this was simply a shortcut to avoid the grind to get the item, it wouldn't be so bad but these items are just not available in game unless you part with even more cash. I'm not on about buying it to trade in game either, that's what kills the economy in double quick time in F2P games. Buy it or grind for it, things available through the CS should be non-tradeable or it becomes a RL money for EC scam, people become rich quick and in-game prices subsequently go skyrocket.
In addition, if I was to buy a ship for 25 bucks and it turned out to be a complete lemon, I'd want my money back. It's bad enough parting with EC for a ship to try it out but to spend RL money only to find out it's a pile of s**t is another matter.
Agreed, I spent the money on the Gal-x. Not entirely happy but I will still play with it from time to time. Do I want my money back? Not really, it was impulse driven to buy it. Lesson learned. I know we want to play and have fun, because this is something we like to do. But, those that flipped the buck to make the game are going to want to make their buck back 5 fold.
EQ recently got one.
WoW is selling expensive pets.
EVE got PLEX and probably an actual cash shop soon... I think... Something about using PLEX to buy respecs and stuff in the future.
Also... Hybrid model>F2P.
Eve sells Game time that can be sold In game for millions of ISK.
WOW make you pay for server transfers and respect. That is a Cash Store. On top that they sell a stupid card game that no one plays, but still buys whole boxes of them because they give cool in game stuff, Now that is sleazy. you could blow $80 and not get anything.
Everquest apparently has a Cash store now.
so yea, As i said most MMOs have a cash store because $15 bucks a month doesn't quite cut it anymore. So your opinion of how a subscription MMO should work is basically not practiced by anyone, so your friends are not playing the game for a very poorly thought out reason.
We have pets that give a resist bonus and damage bonus, BOff extra races that give bonuses, Extra BO slots so you can rotate your crew for better buffs acording to the situation and so on. All the CS items you mention in the other games don't offer any benefits in game. To do so just turns a game into a pay2win, a wallet based game.
While I would have no objection to using the cash shop as a means to avoid the grind for some items, anything that gives benefits in game should be available in game. Cash shop should be for casual players with little time to farm items (or those too lazy to) but those with the time to spend farming can obtain the items without forking out RL cash. With the current economic situation, people don't have that sort of disposable cash.
I'm not talking about something that will take months to finally get (if you're lucky) either, that sort of system is why I uninstalled Allods, as well as their greed by making NPC's so hard you had to buy incense from the cash shop. Their servers were almost empty after that patch, I wonder why?
It isn't because $15 doesn't cut it, but rather that players are willing to buy that stuff, enough of it at the price asked that it is quite profitable. The companies go where the money is.
Part of it is the same reason the LotRO model works. It creates a tiered system. You get X from one group, but another group, the one more willing to spend cash, you get X + Y from. And even those that prefer not to buy, you put the right bait out and they'll get just that thing.
Part of it is also because we consumers aren't always very bright. We'll complain about paying $20 a month, that's 240 dollars a year! But paying $15 a month, that's okay. And if we then spend $10 on something from the store, that is just skipping going out to eat or to the movies or something, no big deal. Even if we do it once a month. And so we wind up averaging $25 dollars a month.
And that is why, for example, we get all sorts of clothing packs in the C-store when art that should be part of the core game is missing on the Klingon side. For example, armor and kits have no graphics for Klingons. Why we get different bridges when what we really need is those artists to put together maps for more content, more missions.
I look forward to the day when STO goes to LotRO model of F2P. Yup, they haven't said they will. But I believe it is inevitable, unless they really manage to TRIBBLE it up with CO. And when it happens, I expect subscribers will get about the same as we get now, plus points to spend. So overall, we'll come out ahead.
Well now you are just trying to split hairs with me. You concede to the fact that these games you mentioned to in fact have cash shops, and now you are saying "but they don't do it this certain way that Cryptic does". :rolleyes:
The extra Races and Boff's don't really offer anything more or less powered than the other races, so the only reason you would get that race is if you liked the race and wanted to play one. The Boff doesn't give you anything all that great either, it's just so you can be "OMG I gotz teh borg in my ship, i'm gonna name her 6 of 9!". PLUS there is a Borg bridge officer available IN GAME with the same abilities but different visuals.
You sort of have a valid point with the extra Boff slots, except that you really have all the flexibility you need with the current slots. You can only spec into so many skills, and you can retrain your current boffs, and you still have room for secondary abilities. So if you find you can't compete with someone with 30 Boffs, then the issue is you and your build.
While buying c-store items can expand your playability options, there are no "must haves" in order to compete in any aspect of the game.
Liek i said, i don't necessarily agree with the current model, but i hate it when folks spread misinformation or throw wild accusations with no backing, intentional or otherwise.
Because you know everything that goes on behind the scenes at Cryptic and thus are in the perfect position to comment. Grow up and stop making assumptions.
I can't find the original post I read, but simply visit Turbine's own site and see what they themselves say about their own store: My point is, as long as Cryptic is selling only vanity items (ships, races, clothing) which do not give you distinct PvE advantages and most of their C-Store ships are obtainable by other ways than just the C-Store, I can't really agree that Cryptic's C-Store is like any other F2P store.
Another point to mention, if the C-Store was truly a F2P store, then only the character you buy a ship with, would have access to that ship. Instead, when you buy a ship on the C-Store, all your current and future characters gain access to that ship if they're at the right level!
I've never heard of a F2P store selling you items that are usable on your entire account and all your characters without the item eventually disappearing, so if anything you should compare the C-Store to WoW's store or the store NCSoft has for City of Heroes.
I am afraid you are the one acting like a spoiled child here, maybe you need to grow up and learn how a real BUSINESS model works. Sounds like you have never worked a job where a business model is needed.
I also see you are a "LTS" big deal. I am tired of seeing the LTS like you who think they are somehow more privilaged than those of us that pay monthly from the start of the game and want everything handed to them just because of it. In a few more months the revenue they need to run the game from you will be used up, at that point you become " DEAD WEIGHT " to the game.
Without the C-Store you are useless to the continued growth of this game.....
I would totally agree with giving you something when your LTS is used up, how about the accolade "Dead Weight" ?
But it's also irrelevant. Ships with different BO/console/weapon layouts and special abilities affect the very core of gameplay. These ships are anything but vanity items, and the clear and oft-repeated promise in response to pre-launch objections to the sub+MT model was that nothing gameplay-affecting would be only available in the C-store.
Cryptic's mouthpieces have repeatedly moved the goalposts, and even the platitudes that dstahl has offered have now been shown to be meaningless.
Well, I'd still be buying stuff if they had kept to their word...
You fail to see what is right in front of you....
To you its a GAME, to them its a BUSINESS and businesses need to make money. I am sure if you were on their payroll you would see it in a different light. :rolleyes: