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Dear Cryptic: Short Term Concerns vs Long Term Needs - Someone hit the brakes please.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
You know while I can wave my beta member flag and lifer sub around its immaterial really in this debate cause this is really something that effects STO and will into the future long after I've forgotten I've got a life time sub out of boredom.

Short Term Concerns:

A lot of people like to point at bugs or content issues and consider them priorities for a development team to focus on.

But really in the long view of a game, these things are short term concerns. My pew pew goes poo poo, this mission won't work..blah blah blah, the forums are full of this blah blah blah.

Developer focus also seems to be following the bouncing ball of short term concerns and not looking over the whole project in its entirety and realizing the flaws in it.

Point in Case:

Today's patch is effectively a short term set of fixes in all cases, and for some reason adds seven new ship items with some new meshes to compliment them that are only usable in a vicious cycle of repetitive end game replaying of like a very limited set of missions that everyone has done before. Probably on one or two characters at least.

Long Term Needs:

The Long Term Needs of a game especially a game under an active CBS/Paramount IP license, I do not feel, are being served by the Cryptic development house in a proper manner and I'll try to dish this out in short bits so I'm not spending too much time talking and belaboring the point.

Simple case in point, three times in beta I rescued Miral Paris from the Klingon's, several times after release I did it again and now 300+ days after release, on an entirely new character I have done it again.

When STO was in design and beta the promise of the Genesis engine was its dynamism and ability to allow the game world to change, the unfortunate state of affairs though is as attractive as the Genesis engine sounded it fell well short of the mark of actually creating any dynamism beyond a very limited set of parameters in a very limited part of the STO platform, and this was pretty much the exploration sectors of the game and that was it. And even the parameters of the Genesis engine in practice in these exploration clusters is extremely limited, granted it can reference and build random assets to make each environment variant from the last you were in, but the mission system didn't follow this Genesis concept and even these "dynamic" exploration missions are simply a rough list of 20 or so template based encounters in of which only the art assets in use are really exchanged between any two of the templates that are the same.

While in beta I voiced some pretty strong concerns with the storyline decision to reintroduce war between the Federation and the KDF as it had allied with several of the races representative of that group in the previous canon time line, but I figured given the potential dynamism of this engine, what could the chances possibly be that we'd go a years worth of live game time and that remain the same?

Suffice it to say I made Rear Admiral 5 pretty fast after release and got promptly bored. PvP in STO is lackluster at best and other than the attraction of the Star Trek IP the game holds little interest for me. I came back with Season Three to see my biggest gripe of the game finally addressed, the cartoon-like aspect of sector space removed bringing back the "space" aspect of the final frontier and I'm pretty happy about that.

But the problem is, even with the Season Four changes that are proposed you're not addressing the key aspect of failure in the chain of the product.

The galaxy of Star Trek as its being presented in the Cryptic product has been literally in time stasis since the release of the game.

What we don't need is "new" content, what we need is "shifting content" that the players of the Federation and KDF can adapt to over time. The episodic releases have been a nice try, but leaving every mission that's been in the game since beta more or less the "ladder" of progression for a year does this product no favors and isn't doing the title any good in regards to retaining subscribers.

The static model of MUD/MUSH/MUCK/RPG/MMO dynamics is whats holding this title down.

What STO needs is a galaxy that has taken the time to react to the thousands of captains that have been twisting its destiny one by one in the hundreds of thousands, to eventually present those same captains with a changed face of the galaxy which forces them to face the challenges which have evolved from the story lines they've substantially changed over a period of time.

What is killing MMO's currently is this lack of dynamism. Cataclysm for WoW (Which I'm not playing I'm just using as an example) is an example of the largest MMO standard in the world realizing that standing on a static content model for years and just pushing more TRIBBLE on top of it is not an effective method of engrossing a paying customer who's got more than one MMO under their belt.

Things have to change, the galaxy has to adapt to the player over time. Just shoveling more TRIBBLE on top of whats already there is age old carrot on a stick method of attempting to retain a player base.

I'm not saying that my every action must have a reaction. But my Vice Admiral sits around doing nothing cause all he can do is repeat missions hes already done. Where do our officers really fit into this galaxy? That somehow because the stories peter out, all our "training" and all our advanced "technology" is meaningless and immaterial...except to..what? PvP in a war that doesn't make any sense with the Undine and Borg right in the Federation and KDF's "backyard"? Repeat missions ad nauseum for "reduced rewards" to do what? Pile up energy credits to sell to Chinese gold farmers? Role play? Of the three I'd say role play is the only viable and even close to entertaining option.

So effectively, and I'm sorry I've run this long in the post. For STO to really hold a community in the long term it has to take the concepts of Genesis and a dynamic galaxy that were at its core at the beginning and revise the galaxy around the obvious changes of storyline that would have occurred over a certain period of time.

Dynamism is what MMO's lack. Dynamism is what a galaxy of variant life forms and new and interesting threats to the stability of the galaxy should have.

I'm subscribed for "life" I just wish the game could actually retain my interest for that long.

Don't take this as me knocking the game, or even knocking the changes that are proposed to be coming down the pipe....I'm simply saying that as long as the galaxy remains static, there will always be a "end game" and there is no "end game" in a shifting galaxy full of political instability and warring powers. My Vice Admiral should never become a useless appendage of the Federation. Not in anything near to even a pseudo-realistic depiction of a Star Trek galaxy.

If you made it down this far :eek: wow, thanks, and sorry if I sound like I'm complaining.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I hear ya, I think

    You would like to see STO morph into a self changing game where missions adjust and
    change to keep everything fresh ?

    That would be nice.

    and wow is kinda doing something like that.

    Reality check - wow makes more in 1 month of subcriptions then this game makes in...10 YEARS
    yes...a little detail wow 14,000,000 paid subscriptions STO about 100,000 paid subs.

    WAKE UP !

    BE glad cryptic has the foresight to get foundry done so that the players can help bring in more
    content.

    ever changing base game content = bankrupt cryptic.
    rewriting cryptic's game engine = bankrupt cryptic

    Sorry, not going to happen
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Also keep in mind that cataclysm is WoW's third expansion, and has come out 6 years after the release of WoW. STO is not even a year old yet. You cant really expect a game to have fundamental redesigns at its different ranks while its still ironing out bugs and trying to add more content (which is a much bigger priority in the first year of a MMO than anything else). And even so they still found time to redesign crafting (more than twice), introduce a revamped sector space, and implement a ground combat and crew revamp for Season 4.

    They [cryptic] are already talking about totally changing how exploration works in the game. So, if done correctly, this could be the alternate, shifting content you (and all of us) wish for. If they make it so that a vast amount of exploration opportunities open up for you at the last rank then it would make that end game content vastly more numerous. Imagine wanting to log in just to continue exploring a sector a space you had begun to explore a day or week before? Meeting different new races and having to complete many different tasks to gain bonuses or new items or emblems or etc? There are many possibilities out there, and the game is only reaching its first anniversary. So please be patient and let them continue adding content before they start adding new factions and more redesigns.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Creating the Foundry was necessary to satiate many of those short term needs while opening up new tools (and reopening programmer talents) for long term features, like territory control and a more meaningful method of exploration. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Yes, I think the foundry will address the majority of concerns about content and "dynamic universe".

    We players really do need some long term goals though.
    Once you've pimped your ship (easier than ever with the new crafting abilities!), and gotten all your accolade titles/trophies... what's left to work towards?

    STF Borg loot could have been implemented so that only one in the group got the item, it'd take 5x as many runs before everyone gets the equipment. It keeps more people playing them.

    High-end craftables like the Aegis set shouldn't be automatically available to everyone. The ability to craft that kit should have been found in a loot drop somewhere which doesn't Always drop it. It encourages replay of particular missions in order to find these rare drops.
    It also means they won't be found on the exchange for cheap within a month or two.

    And I really like the Fleet PvP/Starbase idea in Darren's sig.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Soyinka wrote:
    What is killing MMO's currently is this lack of dynamism. Cataclysm for WoW (Which I'm not playing I'm just using as an example) is an example of the largest MMO standard in the world realizing that standing on a static content model for years and just pushing more TRIBBLE on top of it is not an effective method of engrossing a paying customer who's got more than one MMO under their belt.

    I'm sorry, but this paragraph completely invalidated any point you were making. WoW isnt my cup of tea, and it obviously isnt yours, but its pretty clear there are alot of people who like it. While I would LIKE to see a more dynamic game, saying that the lack of dynamism is "killing MMOs" and then using the most successful MMO in history as your example just invalidates your argument.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    nuh wrote:
    Yes, I think the foundry will address the majority of concerns about content and "dynamic universe".

    We players really do need some long term goals though.
    Once you've pimped your ship (easier than ever with the new crafting abilities!), and gotten all your accolade titles/trophies... what's left to work towards?

    STF Borg loot could have been implemented so that only one in the group got the item, it'd take 5x as many runs before everyone gets the equipment. It keeps more people playing them.

    This is an incorrect approach for extremely poignant example please reference any of the hundred or so Naxxramas runs anyone that got to the "End game" in WoW did. Sure maybe they did them 100 times, but its not like it was enjoyable.
    High-end craftables like the Aegis set shouldn't be automatically available to everyone. The ability to craft that kit should have been found in a loot drop somewhere which doesn't Always drop it. It encourages replay of particular missions in order to find these rare drops.
    It also means they won't be found on the exchange for cheap within a month or two.

    I think I agree with this but then I've been stocking back data samples since before the waveform minigame so its sort of immaterial I don't think finding the rare particle traces necessary for them or for the XI weapon craftables is as immediately and easily attainable by people that didn't have an entire bank of data samples backed up. For me it was easy I just went in, crafted the Aegis set and put it on, for others they may have to go look for the rare samples involved or even buy them so its not 100% too easy, but I agree its easy enough for people that have had nothing better to do than farm data samples and craft equipment for friends and alts.

    What I think you're missing and what I think everyone is missing is that the framework for a dynamic galaxy is there. Instead of throwing us at Borg STF's 1000 times, why not take the instancing tech thats already there and create an entirely rewritten galaxy that introduces RA/UA/VA content to the sectors that are already there simply in their own ranked zones. Lets have the Borg push through the Gamma Orionis Transwarp and put the boots to the Sirius Sector, lets have the Romulans push out of Iota Pavonis backed by a fleet of dreadnaughts augmented with borg technology we didn't see coming, lets see an eventual alliance of the Federation with the KDF to fight off these threats..and we can do it all all in the systems we already have it simple takes the time and committment to build these "altered state" instances where after you've reached a certain point they open up to you and you can move on with the story just like you should be able to in a Star Trek galaxy.

    The technology is there. The Foundry is not a way to address the static nature of the storyline, nor is it a way to really challenge and reward long term admirals with anything other than something thats a simulation that is meaningless beyond their experience and the satisfaction of the creator.

    The Borg STF's shouldn't be a 100 run endeavor especially since theres so few of them. Whats more the galaxy and your career simply shouldn't "end" cause you've done them...and effectively, both do. Until you get so bored you start an alt then realize how boring that is doing the same missions over again.

    A set of writers and mission designers could put this concept into reality in six months, if the time and resources were allocated, the technology to do it is already there.

    Episodics are great, but the "episode" in total is the changing state of affairs of the Federation and KDF in the face of multiple hostile enemies and it literally stops at Gamma Orionis. Its over. You're done, shoot off your fireworks and think about what you want to do with your spare time from there....cause thats it.

    And thats not how it should be, and they have the technology in place to address it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I'm sorry, but this paragraph completely invalidated any point you were making. WoW isnt my cup of tea, and it obviously isnt yours, but its pretty clear there are alot of people who like it. While I would LIKE to see a more dynamic game, saying that the lack of dynamism is "killing MMOs" and then using the most successful MMO in history as your example just invalidates your argument.

    Actually it doesn't because the example is showing that WoW introduced a new dynamic and changed the entire landscape of the game. Quest models, class models, world assets, everything. Granted it took them five years to get there but....its dynamism just the same.

    Whats killing MMO's IS the lack of dynamism, and someone at Blizzard figured that out. Voila Cataclysm. Enter new dynamics, new experiences and new challenges.

    So I don't think I invalidated my argument at all, just because its the most successful MMO in history, and its the only one to have taken a step towards content wide dynamics shifts where the WORLD has actually evolved into something different doesn't invalidate my argument, the fact that everyone else in the MMO business, Cryptic included, hasn't, is what validates my argument.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I'm sorry, but this paragraph completely invalidated any point you were making. WoW isnt my cup of tea, and it obviously isnt yours, but its pretty clear there are alot of people who like it. While I would LIKE to see a more dynamic game, saying that the lack of dynamism is "killing MMOs" and then using the most successful MMO in history as your example just invalidates your argument.

    As someone who plays WoW, I think the OP was referring to the very, very drastic changes made in the last month. For the better part of six years, the "old world content" (level 1 to 60) had changed little if at all with the release of the Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King expansions. Cataclysm was an incredibly dynamic change, completely warping the old world - as the commercials stated, "everything you know about World of Warcraft will change/has changed". Only drawback to this is now the Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King content are considered "old world"...timeline wise, the events in Outland and in Northrend are a few years behind what's going on in the old world in Cataclysm.

    The gist of the OP's point here, I think, is that STO sorta needs a change like that, but it seems more addressed to the alts of those who have ground their way up to Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General and don't want to repeat the same stuff again with new characters.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Soyinka wrote:
    This is an incorrect approach for extremely poignant example please reference any of the hundred or so Naxxramas runs anyone that got to the "End game" in WoW did. Sure maybe they did them 100 times, but its not like it was enjoyable.

    The Borg STF's shouldn't be a 100 run endeavor especially since theres so few of them. Whats more the galaxy and your career simply shouldn't "end" cause you've done them...and effectively, both do. Until you get so bored you start an alt then realize how boring that is doing the same missions over again.

    I never said 100, I said 5, and that'd only be an "average". I don't want a grindsworthy 100 times either, and it won't happen unless I am really unlucky and antisocial. If you do it with the same 4 other fleet members, 5 times no matter who wins, it's a guaranteed 5 runs.

    There's also the bigger sense of acheivement/victory after winning an item on a roll, than being handed it on a plate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Soyinka wrote:
    You know while I can wave my beta member flag and lifer sub around its immaterial really in this debate cause this is really something that effects STO and will into the future long after I've forgotten I've got a life time sub out of boredom.

    Short Term Concerns:

    A lot of people like to point at bugs or content issues and consider them priorities for a development team to focus on.

    But really in the long view of a game, these things are short term concerns. My pew pew goes poo poo, this mission won't work..blah blah blah, the forums are full of this blah blah blah.

    Developer focus also seems to be following the bouncing ball of short term concerns and not looking over the whole project in its entirety and realizing the flaws in it.

    Point in Case:

    Today's patch is effectively a short term set of fixes in all cases, and for some reason adds seven new ship items with some new meshes to compliment them that are only usable in a vicious cycle of repetitive end game replaying of like a very limited set of missions that everyone has done before. Probably on one or two characters at least.

    Long Term Needs:

    The Long Term Needs of a game especially a game under an active CBS/Paramount IP license, I do not feel, are being served by the Cryptic development house in a proper manner and I'll try to dish this out in short bits so I'm not spending too much time talking and belaboring the point.

    Simple case in point, three times in beta I rescued Miral Paris from the Klingon's, several times after release I did it again and now 300+ days after release, on an entirely new character I have done it again.

    When STO was in design and beta the promise of the Genesis engine was its dynamism and ability to allow the game world to change, the unfortunate state of affairs though is as attractive as the Genesis engine sounded it fell well short of the mark of actually creating any dynamism beyond a very limited set of parameters in a very limited part of the STO platform, and this was pretty much the exploration sectors of the game and that was it. And even the parameters of the Genesis engine in practice in these exploration clusters is extremely limited, granted it can reference and build random assets to make each environment variant from the last you were in, but the mission system didn't follow this Genesis concept and even these "dynamic" exploration missions are simply a rough list of 20 or so template based encounters in of which only the art assets in use are really exchanged between any two of the templates that are the same.

    While in beta I voiced some pretty strong concerns with the storyline decision to reintroduce war between the Federation and the KDF as it had allied with several of the races representative of that group in the previous canon time line, but I figured given the potential dynamism of this engine, what could the chances possibly be that we'd go a years worth of live game time and that remain the same?

    Suffice it to say I made Rear Admiral 5 pretty fast after release and got promptly bored. PvP in STO is lackluster at best and other than the attraction of the Star Trek IP the game holds little interest for me. I came back with Season Three to see my biggest gripe of the game finally addressed, the cartoon-like aspect of sector space removed bringing back the "space" aspect of the final frontier and I'm pretty happy about that.

    But the problem is, even with the Season Four changes that are proposed you're not addressing the key aspect of failure in the chain of the product.

    The galaxy of Star Trek as its being presented in the Cryptic product has been literally in time stasis since the release of the game.

    What we don't need is "new" content, what we need is "shifting content" that the players of the Federation and KDF can adapt to over time. The episodic releases have been a nice try, but leaving every mission that's been in the game since beta more or less the "ladder" of progression for a year does this product no favors and isn't doing the title any good in regards to retaining subscribers.

    The static model of MUD/MUSH/MUCK/RPG/MMO dynamics is whats holding this title down.

    What STO needs is a galaxy that has taken the time to react to the thousands of captains that have been twisting its destiny one by one in the hundreds of thousands, to eventually present those same captains with a changed face of the galaxy which forces them to face the challenges which have evolved from the story lines they've substantially changed over a period of time.

    What is killing MMO's currently is this lack of dynamism. Cataclysm for WoW (Which I'm not playing I'm just using as an example) is an example of the largest MMO standard in the world realizing that standing on a static content model for years and just pushing more TRIBBLE on top of it is not an effective method of engrossing a paying customer who's got more than one MMO under their belt.

    Things have to change, the galaxy has to adapt to the player over time. Just shoveling more TRIBBLE on top of whats already there is age old carrot on a stick method of attempting to retain a player base.

    I'm not saying that my every action must have a reaction. But my Vice Admiral sits around doing nothing cause all he can do is repeat missions hes already done. Where do our officers really fit into this galaxy? That somehow because the stories peter out, all our "training" and all our advanced "technology" is meaningless and immaterial...except to..what? PvP in a war that doesn't make any sense with the Undine and Borg right in the Federation and KDF's "backyard"? Repeat missions ad nauseum for "reduced rewards" to do what? Pile up energy credits to sell to Chinese gold farmers? Role play? Of the three I'd say role play is the only viable and even close to entertaining option.

    So effectively, and I'm sorry I've run this long in the post. For STO to really hold a community in the long term it has to take the concepts of Genesis and a dynamic galaxy that were at its core at the beginning and revise the galaxy around the obvious changes of storyline that would have occurred over a certain period of time.

    Dynamism is what MMO's lack. Dynamism is what a galaxy of variant life forms and new and interesting threats to the stability of the galaxy should have.

    I'm subscribed for "life" I just wish the game could actually retain my interest for that long.

    Don't take this as me knocking the game, or even knocking the changes that are proposed to be coming down the pipe....I'm simply saying that as long as the galaxy remains static, there will always be a "end game" and there is no "end game" in a shifting galaxy full of political instability and warring powers. My Vice Admiral should never become a useless appendage of the Federation. Not in anything near to even a pseudo-realistic depiction of a Star Trek galaxy.

    If you made it down this far :eek: wow, thanks, and sorry if I sound like I'm complaining.

    Proof that some people can say alot but still say nothing...... i have no idea what you are talking about!

    One thing for sure you have to realize is this game is only 1 year old....and there have been alot of improvments in that year.

    Did you play world of warcraft when it first came out ? i did, and it changed alot over the years.

    Personally i really like the weeklies and the new content thats being added, and what about UGC thats bound to add some worthwhile content.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Soyinka wrote:
    Actually it doesn't because the example is showing that WoW introduced a new dynamic and changed the entire landscape of the game. Quest models, class models, world assets, everything. Granted it took them five years to get there but....its dynamism just the same.

    Whats killing MMO's IS the lack of dynamism, and someone at Blizzard figured that out. Voila Cataclysm. Enter new dynamics, new experiences and new challenges.

    So I don't think I invalidated my argument at all, just because its the most successful MMO in history, and its the only one to have taken a step towards content wide dynamics shifts where the WORLD has actually evolved into something different doesn't invalidate my argument, the fact that everyone else in the MMO business, Cryptic included, hasn't, is what validates my argument.

    The reason bringing up WoW invalidates your argument is because WoW is built on the kind of gameplay you dont like, and has pretty much only consisted of that up until now with great success. Just because they finally released something new doesnt change the fact that their old content was wildly successful. So what you claim is "killing MMOs" is the very thing that has made WoW the most sucessful MMO ever for the past 6 years that it has existed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Well the problem with that is the short term issues you described should have been taken care of before launch. But they released an incomplete game to get the most money short term instead of thinking long term in the very beginning. So they are having to play catch up unfortunately. Your long term ideas sound great but beyond their grasp at the moment I'd say. They really should have spent another year creating and expanding the content on both sides for end game and developing better pvp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    gmacd wrote: »
    Proof that some people can say alot but still say nothing...... i have no idea what you are talking about!

    Heres the boiled down quote:
    Simple case in point, three times in beta I rescued Miral Paris from the Klingon's, several times after release I did it again and now 300+ days after release, on an entirely new character I have done it again.

    Dynamic content, the galaxy should change over time due to the galaxy having what we call a storyline. The line part being highlighted meaning its going some direction, the line stops at Gamma Orionis, the Galaxy grinds to a halt at that point. Thats what I'm saying. Everyone else is getting it, so, I'm not sure what to tell you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    i agree ...to a point.

    The Genesis System had potential but with maybe 20 templates it is way to minimalistic to keep one intrested in playing longer then a few days.
    The only real reason people do those missions are Emblems and Anomalies for Crafting = grinding.


    PvP sucked on day one and it is still sucking.
    Not because some imballances that came from new items or ships or nerf's that make certain abilities useless... you allways have those changes in MMO's.
    The Problem is... there are TWO Maps. For a YEAR now.

    Hell Cryptic promoted the Klingons to be THE PvP Faction of the Game.... sorry but you can't have a whole Faction based on a feature that is as limited as PvP in STO.
    And instead of improving PvP they add a lot of FED content to the KDF.


    I could live without OpenPVP or Sectorbattles for a while longer if PvP in STO was as entertaining as... multiplayer in ANY of the better Ego Shooters (think Elite Force, without the gameplay or graphics.).
    Server Browser, custom maps, custom number of players, custom RULES for everything and at least 20 Maps and 5 game modes.


    There have been NULL improvements to PVP.
    The new Queue doesn't count, that was just a fix because it was broken and then it still does the very same thing as before: Join one of the 2 played maps and go to the same old maps.



    What i am saying those are 2 major Parts of the game that have only been maintained, but never improved or at least expanded.

    Anybody who played Open Beta and came back today would find no diffrent experience at all in those 2 areas.


    Crafting has been improved... it still has a way to go but it got a lot more usefull allready.
    Weekly Episode Reward Items provide the need to stay subscribed.
    Weekly Episodes themself provide new softcanon Storylines which sattisfies the Trek Nerd in me.
    Foundry will provide a lot of Fanfiction Content
    There is a constant increase of C-Store fluff items (uniforms and stuff)... which is good, i like fluff.

    So yay for all of that.


    Another aspect of the game which needs improvement BADLY is the Multiplayer / PuG aspect of the game.

    Fleetactions are the most "MMO"-Thing to do in STO. yet they are deserted because it is allways the same old boring content, without any satisfying rewards. (the items are TRIBBLE and the emblems aren't worth the invested time)


    STF's are the 2nd most MMO thing to do in STO.
    While the missions are good and might even be entertaining they have a horrible accessibility for Players that aren't part of a fleet.
    I don't feel like spamming Zonechat to find random people to play with.
    Why isn't there a Queue on top of those Planet's???
    Set a few rules, set a starting point ...and done.
    Can't be that hard, the tech is allready there for PvP.


    ....
    shuffle the Priorities however you feel like, i'm just saying at some point all those things should be adressed somehow. And of course sooner is allways better then later.



    When i bought my one year sub i made a list of 3 things i wanted to see from this game.
    If one makes it i would stay with the game afterwards... if not... well then let's see.

    1: OpenPVP (in whatever form, just get rid of the boring deathmatch PvP Queue)
    2: Weekly Episodes (i also asked for Voice Overs and Intro Movies) ...to fill the gap of a TV Series.
    3: UGC

    2 of those things made it to the game, so i guess my demands have been met :)
    well, weekly Episodes are not as weekly as i would have hoped for, still only Text Popups and not enough Voice Overs, i would like to see some Cutscenes added to it. But hey it's a start.

    UGC? Well, i am not realy happy with how the enviroment is build in the foundry, specifically i would like to place objects in a 3D view to actually see what i'm doing, instead of some stupid low res 2D Map with some icons on top of it. But hey if people can do good missions with that thing, and i can play them, who am i to complain about it?


    sure all of that can be improved (a lot)... but it is enough for me too stay arround at least another year and see what happens then.

    in the short term... i would be happy if a few of the visual glitches would be adressed finally.
    it is just annoying to see those red blops comming from my left impulse engine when leaving full impulse... EVERY FRIGGEN TIME... FOREVER NOW!

    rewriting cryptic's game engine = bankrupt cryptic
    Cryptics Engine is now powering 3 games.
    The better the Engine get's the better for the whole Company.

    If a complete new engine will be made at some point STO will probably not get it... or we will get Star Trek Online 2 then instead.
    I wouldn't expect that for the next 5 years though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    The reason bringing up WoW invalidates your argument is because WoW is built on the kind of gameplay you dont like, and has pretty much only consisted of that up until now with great success. Just because they finally released something new doesnt change the fact that their old content was wildly successful. So what you claim is "killing MMOs" is the very thing that has made WoW the most sucessful MMO ever for the past 6 years that it has existed.

    What made WoW successful was its accessibility and heretofore unseen marketing campaigns and product placement integrations, you sure didn't see Everquest popping up on South Park. Or anything else for that matter.

    You don't have William Shatner doing commercials for STO for that matter, Blizzard apparently had more money and hes apparently got better lawyers than CBS/Paramount.

    And WoW has been successful over the last six years but I can tell you from an inside perspective that prior to Cataclysm their numbers were dropping as well. Cause everyone had been there, done that, and got a t-shirt with all their achievements listed on the back of it.

    Cataclysm was the right direction for WoW its whats going to keep it strong and its what drew a lot of people that got jaded and tired with WoW back to it. I didn't go, I'm just not doing elves and dragons and TRIBBLE any more, I'm tired of it.

    But I'm pretty sure the WoW servers are pretty damn full atm. Previous to the Cataclysm content releases their NA servers had seen substantial drops in concurrency.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Soyinka wrote:
    What made WoW successful was its accessibility and heretofore unseen marketing campaigns and product placement integrations, you sure didn't see Everquest popping up on South Park. Or anything else for that matter.
    It took 4.5 years and $63 million dollars to make WoW. STO was made in 1.5 years and Atari purchased all of Cryptic for $27 million dollars. Based on that alone it's nearly impossible to compare the two games.
    You don't have William Shatner doing commercials for STO for that matter, Blizzard apparently had more money and hes apparently got better lawyers than CBS/Paramount.
    What do lawyers have to do with anything? STO isn't owned by CBS or Paramount. It's owned by Cryptic, which is owned by Atari. It costs more money then you can imagine to make and air a commercial. It's not just about paying Shatner. Why waste $1 million on a commercial when you can waste it on the game?
    And WoW has been successful over the last six years but I can tell you from an inside perspective that prior to Cataclysm their numbers were dropping as well. Cause everyone had been there, done that, and got a t-shirt with all their achievements listed on the back of it.
    The world recession has hit WoW just like everyone else. They can weather it because they make a lot of money from the game and merchandise. Blizzard grosses a billion dollars a year from their baby.

    In case you haven't bothered to look around the industry's in turmoil. Many companies are laying off people - and not just the little grunts but the big guys. In the last few months CoH has lost Pos and Castle: two of their main Devs. There's smaller MMOs closing and doing anything the can to stay alive - such as the Hybrid F2P system. It's a tough economic time to be in a vanity business.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    (waiting patiently to vigoriuosly wave DOOM sign and reminincing the old days when these types of threads were more common)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    i understand what you mean OP by the evolution of missions based upon the storyline of the game and how they should change as the years progress and alliances shift........however no MMO that i know of does this.

    its a good concept, i just can't see a way to implement it. the best we can hope for is for more missions so you can choose a path, and perhaps thats something the Dev's need to take a good hard look at.

    Federation characters already have different ways to level, doing missions, dse, exploration, pvp etc. it would be good to see there being multiple paths worth of missions that could form a "set", perhaps implemented per rank to start with, so you could concentrate on an area at a time.

    this is actually how I'd like to see Romulan's developed, there's no point in releasing another faction without any content, however IF you were to release Romulan's and impose a level cap of ten levels / one rank per season, then you could develop missions in a timely and realistic / logical fashion that sees people not running out of content.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    gmacd wrote: »
    Proof that some people can say alot but still say nothing...... i have no idea what you are talking about!

    One thing for sure you have to realize is this game is only 1 year old....and there have been alot of improvments in that year.

    Did you play world of warcraft when it first came out ? i did, and it changed alot over the years.

    Personally i really like the weeklies and the new content thats being added, and what about UGC thats bound to add some worthwhile content.

    This.

    I don't quite get the OP either. Today Patch wasn't Season 4 which i think he feels it should be, it is basically a continuation of Season 3, and there is still more to come of it. Think 3.1, with Foundry hopefully 3.2.
    The ongoing argument about being at the same quality and quantity as Wow is null. I played Wow from June 2005 till only a few months ago. It changed drastically. Cryptic are doing a fine job, the change has been great from the start that i for one am happy to be a LTS and part of this great community. I simply do not get where you are coming from.
    Cryptic didn't have to add this patch fix today, to be honest i expected these things addressed after Christmas. We've had two little patches since Season 3 went Live in less than 2 weeks, so that shows their committment to making sure they remain on the right track. The way you talk OP, you feel these things are a given. Trust me, in the world of MMO's, these things are simply not. I'm very pleased that Cryptic sorted this and now get to have a little break for Christmas. Well done guys.
    Wait till this time next year and see the difference yet again with STO. In fact wait till we are at the same time frame that Wow has had, and you'll look back and wonder what all the whining was about.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Soyinka wrote:
    Actually it doesn't because the example is showing that WoW introduced a new dynamic and changed the entire landscape of the game. Quest models, class models, world assets, everything. Granted it took them five years to get there but....its dynamism just the same.

    Whats killing MMO's IS the lack of dynamism, and someone at Blizzard figured that out. Voila Cataclysm. Enter new dynamics, new experiences and new challenges.

    So I don't think I invalidated my argument at all, just because its the most successful MMO in history, and its the only one to have taken a step towards content wide dynamics shifts where the WORLD has actually evolved into something different doesn't invalidate my argument, the fact that everyone else in the MMO business, Cryptic included, hasn't, is what validates my argument.

    Problem with your example is...its a MMO thats been out a hell of a lot longer then STO. WoWs latest expansion is its third... releasing one every what...two years? STO hasnt even hit its one year mark. I played WoW in its first year. And yes it had a better first year then STO (but that was because Blizzard had the money/the time/a good sized team to make this happen) because STO was put together in a quick hurry. What the Cryptic Team has shown is that even with a small team its more then capable of introducing HUGE changes to the STO enivroment in a short amount of time. Which means that by year 2 in STO. Im confident this game will be 100% different then what it is now and at the point it should of been at release.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Soyinka wrote:
    What I think you're missing and what I think everyone is missing is that the framework for a dynamic galaxy is there. Instead of throwing us at Borg STF's 1000 times, why not take the instancing tech thats already there and create an entirely rewritten galaxy that introduces RA/UA/VA content to the sectors that are already there simply in their own ranked zones. Lets have the Borg push through the Gamma Orionis Transwarp and put the boots to the Sirius Sector, lets have the Romulans push out of Iota Pavonis backed by a fleet of dreadnaughts augmented with borg technology we didn't see coming, lets see an eventual alliance of the Federation with the KDF to fight off these threats..and we can do it all all in the systems we already have it simple takes the time and committment to build these "altered state" instances where after you've reached a certain point they open up to you and you can move on with the story just like you should be able to in a Star Trek galaxy.

    So you are advocating the use of instancing to change the face of the galaxy based on level. It's an interesting idea with some merit, but it does have some very serious implications that you haven't addressed in this proposal.

    First, the kind of instancing you are talking about effectively segregates the lowbies and the veterans. If you're below RA, you access the primary content... if you're RA or higher, you access the advanced content. But you're excluding the lowbies from experiencing these story elements from a lower rank, some of whom would welcome the extra challenge or prefer the new storyline. You're also creating yet another disincentive for veteran-lowbie crossteaming.

    If you tweak it so that the advanced players can access both the primary content AND the advanced content, now you're introducing a schism in the storyline itself. (Is Sirius a war zone, or isn't it?)

    You also need to come up with a convincing argument as to why this is really better than simply providing advanced mission content without instancing, possibly through the Foundry.

    There is a strong contingent of players who would like to do away with instancing altogether. Some of them even want open war zones... what do you say to them?

    Finally, creating an all-new set of content for advanced players is not something that's going to get done in six months even if the devs went in that direction.

    All of that said, I would welcome at least the illusion of a changing galaxy with shifting alliances and new challenges. I'd like to see more sectors opened up... and even new quadrants.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Soyinka wrote:
    And WoW has been successful over the last six years but I can tell you from an inside perspective that prior to Cataclysm their numbers were dropping as well. Cause everyone had been there, done that, and got a t-shirt with all their achievements listed on the back of it.

    Cataclysm was the right direction for WoW its whats going to keep it strong and its what drew a lot of people that got jaded and tired with WoW back to it. I didn't go, I'm just not doing elves and dragons and TRIBBLE any more, I'm tired of it.

    But I'm pretty sure the WoW servers are pretty damn full atm. Previous to the Cataclysm content releases their NA servers had seen substantial drops in concurrency.

    For someone who doesnt play anymore, you sure seem to think you know how well the game is doing. But I'll tell you what are some commonly known facts: WoW's playerbase has been steadily increasing since launch, before Cataclysm even started production, and that steady increase was based purely on its "un-dynamic" content. Also commonly known is that every game has more people online immediately following the release of an expansion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Well, my main disappointment was that we were lead to believe a lot of things that turned out not to be true. They were worded in a way that was extremely misleading. I was under the impression that space was going to be near infinite. Worlds would be created daily and we could discover these worlds by literally exploring. Once we found these worlds, we would actually be able to name them. The way they worded these things were completely misleading and by the time I started this game back in Beta, I was way disappointed.

    This was my main complaint about the game.

    Now, the part that actually ticked me off (And still does to this day) and caused me to leave the game, was that sly little cloaking graphics change that they pulled over on us. No test patch notes, no live patch notes. You just had to by chance log on to test, then log on to your Klink to even know it was there. Then after having people tell me on the boards that "You should have read the patch notes" after I *DID* read the patch notes, did the Devs finally come out and admit that it was not on any patch notes. It was plain and simple a stealth nerf.

    That change should have been made an option, plain and simple. You do not make changes like that in an MMO without making it an option. If you can not make it an option, then you do not change it. Period.

    Now do not take what I have said to heart, because I can think of way more good things about STO than I can bad. It's just that *if* I were ever to decide to quit this game again, these are the reasons that I would not feel guilty for doing so. I was mislead before Beta with the pep talks given by Jack Emmert and I was mislead with the graphics I loved that were forcibly changed, without notice, to the Cloaking Device. If I ever leave this game again, I will for sure not feel guilty about doing so, due to these very reasons.

    But...I seriously doubt I will ever leave the game. But...never know.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Wraiven wrote: »
    Well, my main disappointment was that we were lead to believe a lot of things that turned out not to be true. They were worded in a way that was extremely misleading. I was under the impression that space was going to be near infinite. Worlds would be created daily and we could discover these worlds by literally exploring. Once we found these worlds, we would actually be able to name them. The way they worded these things were completely misleading and by the time I started this game back in Beta, I was way disappointed.

    This was my main complaint about the game.

    Now, the part that actually ticked me off (And still does to this day) and caused me to leave the game, was that sly little cloaking graphics change that they pulled over on us. No test patch notes, no live patch notes. You just had to by chance log on to test, then log on to your Klink to even know it was there. Then after having people tell me on the boards that "You should have read the patch notes" after I *DID* read the patch notes, did the Devs finally come out and admit that it was not on any patch notes. It was plain and simple a stealth nerf.

    That change should have been made an option, plain and simple. You do not make changes like that in an MMO without making it an option. If you can not make it an option, then you do not change it. Period.

    Now do not take what I have said to heart, because I can think of way more good things about STO than I can bad. It's just that *if* I were ever to decide to quit this game again, these are the reasons that I would not feel guilty for doing so. I was mislead before Beta with the pep talks given by Jack Emmert and I was mislead with the graphics I loved that were forcibly changed, without notice, to the Cloaking Device. If I ever leave this game again, I will for sure not feel guilty about doing so, due to these very reasons.

    But...I seriously doubt I will ever leave the game. But...never know.

    I'm starting to understand slowly what it is you are complaining about. Yet simply change has happened. Not just in STO but the direction and producer we have now. A lot of your wants from the original concept came from a different lead at the helm, we have someone else in charge now and their vision is not the same. That game you were mislead to believe isn't coming to pass any time soon. I expect certain elements will enter later on, but the vision of our new lead is something i am very much enjoying, along with so many others. MMO's will never please everyone, things turn out differently over time. Adapt to them or simply go, because the way you are talking reminds me so much of a cheating boyfriend/girlfriend. You will never have control over what they do, no matter what demands you lay down. Maybe STO isn't for you, just like maybe a certain relationship wasn't either. But don't remain in the past moaning in this present because the future isn't what you were told it would be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Green117 wrote: »
    I'm starting to understand slowly what it is you are complaining about. Yet simply change has happened. Not just in STO but the direction and producer we have now. A lot of your wants from the original concept came from a different lead at the helm, we have someone else in charge now and their vision is not the same. That game you were mislead to believe isn't coming to pass any time soon. I expect certain elements will enter later on, but the vision of our new lead is something i am very much enjoying, along with so many others. MMO's will never please everyone, things turn out differently over time. Adapt to them or simply go, because the way you are talking reminds me so much of a cheating boyfriend/girlfriend. You will never have control over what they do, no matter what demands you lay down. Maybe STO isn't for you, just like maybe a certain relationship wasn't either. But don't remain in the past moaning in this present because the future isn't what you were told it would be.

    Meh, you obviously are not very familiar with my posts. I spend way more time defending this game than I do stating its bad points. I was just saying in general to be the Devil's Advocate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Wraiven wrote: »
    Meh, you obviously are not very familiar with my posts. I spend way more time defending this game than I do stating its bad points. I was just saying in general to be the Devil's Advocate.

    I'm not. As much as i use these boards, more often now and the last few months than in the past, i don't know you from Adam or Eve. I love playing Devil's Advocate too, but in this case i'm defending because i firmly believe that the point we are at and what is to come in January and beyond is simply the right direction for (me) STO. They have done such a wonderful job, so much so i am now finally an LTS as of Season 3. I have so much to do in this game, and i guess it helps as i am currently doing a Degree. I can't be on 24/7, except in these holidays, so i take the game at my own pace. I'm a Captain 4 at the moment and that has taken me a good month or so. My mission log is always full, and i have so much to look forward too.
    I love the community, with their unique character designs/bios that i'm losing so much time just reading. I left Wow after 5 years, 3 of which were spent raiding 5/6 nights a week, because it wasn't about my character any more, it was solely about gear. Characters ended up looking the same, there was little to distinguish one from another but for a different shoulder item. STO feels more about my characters journey and i love the game for that.
    Cryptic have really pulled out all the stops in such a limited time. The change of hands in Stahl could have gone either way, yet for me and many others, its going in the right direction. When i returned in November having purchased a new MacBook Pro, a computer that after 2 years of owning a shocking PC could actually run games, the difference in numbers in the game has easily tripled. More instances are opened in ESD and the sectors beyond, which tells me people are coming back, and people are enjoying the great changes since day one.
    I'll always defend STO when criticism tends to stem from comparing it to Wow. Even if Wow isn't mentioned, the ideology is there. Wow is the benchmark for all MMO's, yet it has 5/6 years on most. I'll stop defending STO when at the point it gets to in terms of where Wow is now, nothing has changed. Yet the changes we've seen in one year tells me that this simply will not be the case.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Z3R0B4NG wrote: »
    i There have been NULL improvements to PVP.
    The new Queue doesn't count, that was just a fix because it was broken and then it still does the very same thing as before: Join one of the 2 played maps and go to the same old maps.



    What i am saying those are 2 major Parts of the game that have only been maintained, but never improved or at least expanded.

    Anybody who played Open Beta and came back today would find no diffrent experience at all in those 2 areas.


    You forgot the ability to set up privaye matches. That WAS a good PvP improvement (and not one all games have.) Does PvP need further improvements? Yep. But given everything else, (and that in any PvE focused game, PvP is a very small subset), I don't think I can fault them for where it sits on their priority list.

    Also, from open beta, the KDF overwhelming said, We want to be a full faction - with full PvE, Crafting, etc.; so I think a LOT of energy has gone to that too (the KDF got another PvE sector open to them - with Dstahl stating that soon, all sectors will be open to the KDF (Pi Canis was the test)).

    Why do I sate the above? IF the KDF had remained PvP only, I think we would have already seen move general PvP improvements; but because they were told by the playerbase that won't fly - PvP in general got lowered on the priority list.

    For me, if they can add/convert one sector block to open PvP with an objective (again, like WoW did with their open PvP areas when - when one side holds the objectve - all players in that faction receive a small PvE boost (or something similar); I think that would go a long way to helping the STO PvP situation; and I believe something like this is on the Dev's slate; but we don'r know what Season they'll find the time to impliment it as yet.

    But, still, PvP hasn't been completely neglected these past 10 months.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I think part of what Crytpic could do is create some variety between the classes/factions. The reason WoW feels more dynamic than STO is because it is. There are 6 or 8 or 10 or however many races to choose from...each ones gives you a slightly different experience (atleast starting out). Every race starts in a different town, with distinctly different atmospheres.

    I could play a wood elf today, and switch to undead tomorrow and not feel like I was grinding the same exact stuff.

    In STO, however no matter if you pick Tac, Sci, or Eng...all Federation players experience the same exact thing. you can always switch to Klingon...so that gives you 2 different experiences, as opposed to something like WoW or LoTRO which differs by race.

    If Cryptic created some starter stuff that was different for each class...that would do alot to help the feeling of repetitiveness.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    (waiting patiently to vigoriuosly wave DOOM sign and reminincing the old days when these types of threads were more common)

    Roach, you have got to be the coolest guy on these boards!

    Here I was reading all the doom and gloom and whining and QQing all the while thinking to myself how thankful I am to even be allowed to drive a K'Tinga class cruiser and here you pipe in with this jest. Precious!

    You made my day.
    Thanks!
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