For those of you who do not know what an L4 Maneuver is, it is when a ship does a complete inverted 360. Example includes, one moment you are in front of an enemy vessel who has engaged your ship, the next moment you fly upwards and invert yourself until you are sitting upright again, placing you behind your enemy. This has been done on a few occasions in both Star Trek Next Generation and Star Trek Enterprise.
On the Star Trek Enterprise show, the maneuver seemed to be slightly taxing to the vessel, but at the same time, it was done in a thick nebula. In the Star Trek Next Generation Movie, it looked easy and not taxing. Regardless... I suggest the Devs add this maneuver to all ships and put it on a similar timer to that of Ramming Speed. Something that should be an automatic ability obtained at maybe Commander Ranks?
I personally think this would add a much needed strategy to space combat.
There are no special maneuvers in STO that involve using a captain or boff ability and that's for a good reason - this isn't "Let the game code fly your ship for you online".
With the restriction of a 60 degree ascention and descention angles, thats not possible, thank cbs for that, they demanded that cryptic not allow full 360 degree maneuvers because they didnt like the thought of ships flying upside down, which is odd cos Up is kinda relative in space, being three dimentional and all.
With the restriction of a 60 degree ascention and descention angles, thats not possible, thank cbs for that, they demanded that cryptic not allow full 360 degree maneuvers because they didnt like the thought of ships flying upside down, which is odd cos Up is kinda relative in space, being three dimentional and all.
Very true. But that doesn't mean a pre-programmed maneuver that you can hit a hotkey for is a good idea. Any player with a high turn rate ship (escorts) would use this particular maneuver as an i-win button all the time.
We do not need STO combat to be more like bridge commander. STO has its own unique combat style which works well.
Very true. But that doesn't mean a pre-programmed maneuver that you can hit a hotkey for is a good idea. Any player with a high turn rate ship (escorts) would use this particular maneuver as an i-win button all the time.
We do not need STO combat to be more like bridge commander. STO has its own unique combat style which works well.
Not if it was the same for everyone.
As far as it being "Bridge Commander" ...this maneuver *is* cannon to Star Trek.
Very true. But that doesn't mean a pre-programmed maneuver that you can hit a hotkey for is a good idea. Any player with a high turn rate ship (escorts) will use this particular maneuver as an i-win button all the time.
oh i agree, dont get me wrong, i just want 360 degree maneuvres, i dont play escort classes cos its sometimes a too irritating lining up my cannons lol. but if i had a choice id like the "Crazy Ivan" maneuvre purely for fun, as shown on Andromeda tv series, as it looks funny as hell.
but dont ask for funny maneuvres, cbs are akin to totalitarian dictators when it comes to these things, its their way or no way, have great sympathy for cryptic in that regard lol
Not to mention that assuming a vertical vector to get behind your pursuer is only assumed in an environment with a "floor".
Pull the maneuver by going to Port or Starboard rather than up or down.
Meh, for me, that would defeat the whole idea of the maneuver. If you want to look at it that way, you can always just come to a full stop, then reverse and watch your opponent fly right by you. I perform this maneuver to great success on quite a few occasions. Does not mean the Maneuver I am asking for should not be implemented.
Meh, for me, that would defeat the whole idea of the maneuver. If you want to look at it that way, you can always just come to a full stop, then reverse and watch your opponent fly right by you. I perform this maneuver to great success on quite a few occasions. Does not mean the Maneuver I am asking for should not be implemented.
Other than the cool animation, what pressing reason is there for this as a button-operated maneuver rather than the in-game options we have now?
Other than the cool animation, what pressing reason is there for this as a button-operated maneuver rather than the in-game options we have now?
Personally, I was considering it to be something of use such as it is with Evasive Maneuvers. A great ability to have that is on a medium timer, that has to be used wisely because once it is used up, it's gone until it recharges. I can see the L4 Maneuver being used much in the same way. Nice to have, but if it's used unwisely, it can be both wasted and not available when it's needed.
Also, since we can not pull this maneuver off manually, perhaps we can use it as a ship maneuver ability.
Ways I can see it being useful...ship is badly damaged, your only chance of surviving is to hit full throttle and get the hell out of dodge. But, alas there is a pesky ship who insists on tagging along to finish you off. This ability could be useful to maneuver behind the ship chasing you, to obtain a tactical advantage. but careful, hopefully he did not use that ability recently, if he played wisely as well as you did, he can pull the same maneuver himself to repossession himself behind you again.
I can imagine this to be a lot of fun in numerous ways.
I'm having trouble visualizing the manoeuvre; and certainly can't think of it from the "Next Generation Movie" (do you mean at some point in the shuttle chase sequence in Insurrection?)
In terms of strategy, as suggested, the existing Evasive Manoeuvres power will achieve the same net result for you, so I don't see how it would add any ellement of strategy. Just seems like extra fluff to me. I'm not entirely opposed to adding special manoeuvre powers as long as they make sense and provide something solid that the existing Evasive Manoeuvres doesn't. Also, how would this function for the space-whales (Galaxy, Star Cruisers)?
Ways I can see it being useful...ship is badly damaged, your only chance of surviving is to hit full throttle and get the hell out of dodge. But, alas there is a pesky ship who insists on tagging along to finish you off. This ability could be useful to maneuver behind the ship chasing you, to obtain a tactical advantage.
I think the existing Evasive Manoeuvres can do this for you anyway.
but careful, hopefully he did not use that ability recently, if he played wisely as well as you did, he can pull the same maneuver himself to repossession himself behind you again.
Well, maybe if the ships are of equal type -- I would fully expect a Defiant to complete the manoeuvre before the Galaxy was even 1/4 of the way done.
Then everyone would use it on each other all the time and it would be the next flavour of the month without adding anything of substance.
I can not see it being flavor of the month when it shares the same timer as Ramming Speed. Ramming Speed is and would be way more powerful of an ability than the L4 Maneuver, and it is not FotM. I simply can not see this ability being anything more than an "Oh Snap!" button. Replace "Snap" with the preferred metaphor.
Well, perhaps I am just a larger fan of a more exiting flavored game than most others are. Either I am closed minded, or I am simply unable to find a reason to agree with you guys. I can not see this ability being anything more than fun and a way to add a more diverse combat system.
But if this is how everyone truly feels about it, then perhaps I should just let it go.
I can't help to be reminded of how my thread of a "New Sector Space" went when I first suggested it. I had very few positive responses from that thread as well. Yet now that we have the sector space I and a few others have asked asked for, (I simply requested the grid be an option to be removed along with the poles underneath the planets) people seem to love it. I'm just curious how many people would enjoy this maneuver *if* it were to be implemented.
Would at least like to see it added to test, so people can actually get a feel of it first hand, rather than shoot the idea down before even having an opportunity to get a taste of it's usefulness for both tactics and theme.
I don't think it's a matter of whether or not it's a good or bad thing, we just don't see it bringing enough to the table to warrant developing it over the other things on the table.
I would not like to see it added to Tribble; it would be a waste of development resources to implement an idea that has not even survived 45 minutes of Devil's Advocate.
but if i had a choice id like the "Crazy Ivan" maneuvre purely for fun, as shown on Andromeda tv series, as it looks funny as hell.
2 points here - 1. The Crazy Ivan involved rotating the ship on the horizontal axis using your port engine flying forwards and your starboard engine flying backwards, not flipping over the enemy and coming in behind him.
Well, my suggestion was never to move this idea to the front of the table by any means. Was simply a suggestion. But meh, if I can't get people behind the idea within three pages, it's simply time to let it go. Thanks anyway. Not all ideas can be great ones. :cool:
It's only been 45 minutes of "Devil's Advocate" and you're giving up? I don't think it's a matter of whether or not it's a good or bad thing, we just don't see it bringing enough to the table to warrant developing it over the other things on the table.
^This^ Right here.
I could understand the cool animation, as I said, but it adds nothing that's not available already, to every single captain. In fact, I would say that the in-game version (which I think of as "take the flank") is better, because it's more realistic in that ships with better maneuverability can pull it off more often, while lumbering behemoths must plan and work to pull it off.
By the way, when you go dead stop to allow your pursuer to overtake you, do you just hit "R" and allow them to overtake, or do you risk the reverse power drain by hitting "R" and then "Q" in rapid succession in order to enhance your chances of them overtaking you and ending up with their aft quarter in your sights?
Oh, and technically, aren't you thinking of a loop-the-loop?
2 points here - 1. The Crazy Ivan involved rotating the ship on the horizontal axis using your port engine flying forwards and your starboard engine flying backwards, not flipping over the enemy and coming in behind him.
Yeah, the loop to loop would have been a better description. As far as the full stop to reverse thing goes...I hit Evasive Maneuvers to get away fast with my camera facing behind me to see if anyone is following. If I am using Evasive to get away, then 9 times out of 10, they are using it to chase me. The power drain isn't much at all, and you do not have to be in reverse for very long at all either. This is also affective in midst of combat at slow speeds. Helps when you are facing an opponent who has a better turn rate than you do.
t's only been 45 minutes of "Devil's Advocate" and you're giving up? I don't think it's a matter of whether or not it's a good or bad thing, we just don't see it bringing enough to the table to warrant developing it over the other things on the table.
Well, I have learned over the many years of posting forums, that if you argue your point (especially when you are the only one who agrees with yourself) too much, people tend to feel as though you are ignoring their points. Or they feel that you are the type person who thinks that you are the only one who has an opinion that matters. People tend to turn your valid arguments into, "You simply refuse to listen to what others are saying." At a fast point, you are viewed as somebody who is thick headed instead of viewed as somebody who is making points. Once somebody makes this statement about you, everyone else tends to believe this statement, even though you know yourself this is not your intention.
So when I can start seeing that I am the only person who agrees with myself within the first three pages, I give it up before it gets out of hand.
It's been a good policy so far, I see no reason to change it, heh.
For those of you who do not know what an L4 Maneuver is, it is when a ship does a complete inverted 360. Example includes, one moment you are in front of an enemy vessel who has engaged your ship, the next moment you fly upwards and invert yourself until you are sitting upright again, placing you behind your enemy. This has been done on a few occasions in both Star Trek Next Generation and Star Trek Enterprise.
On the Star Trek Enterprise show, the maneuver seemed to be slightly taxing to the vessel, but at the same time, it was done in a thick nebula. In the Star Trek Next Generation Movie, it looked easy and not taxing. Regardless... I suggest the Devs add this maneuver to all ships and put it on a similar timer to that of Ramming Speed. Something that should be an automatic ability obtained at maybe Commander Ranks?
I personally think this would add a much needed strategy to space combat.
So, you want a battleship to perform a Immelmann? That, after all, is what your "L4 maneuver" is in modern-day terms (the aerobatic move has nothing to do with the original combat maneuver).
The ONLY ship this kind of maneuver makes any sense at all for is ships with fixed forward guns - as the Immelmann was originally designed to get the front machine guns of a biplane onto a target quickly. The ONLY Starfleet ships we've seen that it would make any sense for are shuttles, Peregines, and Defiant-class ships with non-turreted (or "stripped") weapons. A ship with turrets would easily be able to track and maintain fire on any ship attempting this maneuver, possibly hitting a weak spot as the ship doing it moved. As a side note, in another sci-fi based game (EvE) this is precisely why there's a artifical limitation on the speed that turrets "turn" based onthe size of the weapon fitted - so that battleships can't oneshot frigates)
Just because they showed it in a episode or two doesn't mean it makes sense, after all. Remember that most Trek writers really didn't have a true handle on Science, and instead used Hollywood Science. There, anything goes, nonsensical or not.
Just remember that ST battles are based on the "Ships In Space" concept, NOT the aircraft one seen in things like SW, Wing Commander, and other similar shows. Save for Defiant flyers (which are closer to corvettes/destroyers using this paradigm), we're flying captial ships.
So, you want a battleship to perform a Immelmann? That, after all, is what your "L4 maneuver" is in modern-day terms (the aerobatic move has nothing to do with the original combat maneuver).
The ONLY ship this kind of maneuver makes any sense at all for is ships with fixed forward guns - as the Immelmann was originally designed to get the front machine guns of a biplane onto a target quickly. The ONLY Starfleet ships we've seen that it would make any sense for are shuttles, Peregines, and Defiant-class ships with non-turreted (or "stripped") weapons. A ship with turrets would easily be able to track and maintain fire on any ship attempting this maneuver, possibly hitting a weak spot as the ship doing it moved. As a side note, in another sci-fi based game (EvE) this is precisely why there's a artifical limitation on the speed that turrets "turn" based onthe size of the weapon fitted - so that battleships can't oneshot frigates)
Just because they showed it in a episode or two doesn't mean it makes sense, after all. Remember that most Trek writers really didn't have a true handle on Science, and instead used Hollywood Science. There, anything goes, nonsensical or not.
Just remember that ST battles are based on the "Ships In Space" concept, NOT the aircraft one seen in things like SW, Wing Commander, and other similar shows. Save for Defiant flyers (which are closer to corvettes/destroyers using this paradigm), we're flying captial ships.
Ugh, You're preaching to the choir, man. I can not agree with almost anything you said. Don't get me wrong, I am finished trying to make this topic a reality in game, but you are trying to combine real life with Star Trek. Not happening. If everything in this game had to make Scientific sense, it would be dull, boring and no fun at all. Not to mention that if this game were more "real" we would not have any issues pulling that maneuver off on our own to begin with, since space has no up, down, left, right.
Long story short, you are not telling me anything that I do not already know. :cool:
2 points here - 1. The Crazy Ivan involved rotating the ship on the horizontal axis using your port engine flying forwards and your starboard engine flying backwards, not flipping over the enemy and coming in behind him.
2. It was in the Firefly series, not Andromeda.
What's that, a fellow Firefly fan?
I declare that this thread is now about Firefly. (j/k)
This all brings to mind the High Energy Turns that was used in starfleet command series. If I recall correctly you had a percentage chance to do a rapid manveur that was way faster than what you could normally do, but this came with the risk of overloading your ship and getting stuck dead in the water until your systems could reset.
I can't beleive how many Firefly Fans there are in this one thread. I guess looks can be deceiving.
This isn't Starfox 64. Besides the exact same result can occur by hitting evasive maneuvers, cutting speed a few notches and looping to their 6 o clock by going left or right, I do it all the time in my BoP.
Comments
There are no special maneuvers in STO that involve using a captain or boff ability and that's for a good reason - this isn't "Let the game code fly your ship for you online".
With the restriction of a 60 degree ascention and descention angles, thats not possible, thank cbs for that, they demanded that cryptic not allow full 360 degree maneuvers because they didnt like the thought of ships flying upside down, which is odd cos Up is kinda relative in space, being three dimentional and all.
Very true. But that doesn't mean a pre-programmed maneuver that you can hit a hotkey for is a good idea. Any player with a high turn rate ship (escorts) would use this particular maneuver as an i-win button all the time.
We do not need STO combat to be more like bridge commander. STO has its own unique combat style which works well.
Not if it was the same for everyone.
As far as it being "Bridge Commander" ...this maneuver *is* cannon to Star Trek.
oh i agree, dont get me wrong, i just want 360 degree maneuvres, i dont play escort classes cos its sometimes a too irritating lining up my cannons lol. but if i had a choice id like the "Crazy Ivan" maneuvre purely for fun, as shown on Andromeda tv series, as it looks funny as hell.
but dont ask for funny maneuvres, cbs are akin to totalitarian dictators when it comes to these things, its their way or no way, have great sympathy for cryptic in that regard lol
Pull the maneuver by going to Port or Starboard rather than up or down.
Meh, for me, that would defeat the whole idea of the maneuver. If you want to look at it that way, you can always just come to a full stop, then reverse and watch your opponent fly right by you. I perform this maneuver to great success on quite a few occasions. Does not mean the Maneuver I am asking for should not be implemented.
Other than the cool animation, what pressing reason is there for this as a button-operated maneuver rather than the in-game options we have now?
Personally, I was considering it to be something of use such as it is with Evasive Maneuvers. A great ability to have that is on a medium timer, that has to be used wisely because once it is used up, it's gone until it recharges. I can see the L4 Maneuver being used much in the same way. Nice to have, but if it's used unwisely, it can be both wasted and not available when it's needed.
Also, since we can not pull this maneuver off manually, perhaps we can use it as a ship maneuver ability.
Then everyone would use it on each other all the time and it would be the next flavour of the month without adding anything of substance.
I can imagine this to be a lot of fun in numerous ways.
In terms of strategy, as suggested, the existing Evasive Manoeuvres power will achieve the same net result for you, so I don't see how it would add any ellement of strategy. Just seems like extra fluff to me. I'm not entirely opposed to adding special manoeuvre powers as long as they make sense and provide something solid that the existing Evasive Manoeuvres doesn't. Also, how would this function for the space-whales (Galaxy, Star Cruisers)?
I think I'll send you a message every time there's a need for some logic to be injected into a thread.
Well, maybe if the ships are of equal type -- I would fully expect a Defiant to complete the manoeuvre before the Galaxy was even 1/4 of the way done.
I can not see it being flavor of the month when it shares the same timer as Ramming Speed. Ramming Speed is and would be way more powerful of an ability than the L4 Maneuver, and it is not FotM. I simply can not see this ability being anything more than an "Oh Snap!" button. Replace "Snap" with the preferred metaphor.
But if this is how everyone truly feels about it, then perhaps I should just let it go.
I can't help to be reminded of how my thread of a "New Sector Space" went when I first suggested it. I had very few positive responses from that thread as well. Yet now that we have the sector space I and a few others have asked asked for, (I simply requested the grid be an option to be removed along with the poles underneath the planets) people seem to love it. I'm just curious how many people would enjoy this maneuver *if* it were to be implemented.
Would at least like to see it added to test, so people can actually get a feel of it first hand, rather than shoot the idea down before even having an opportunity to get a taste of it's usefulness for both tactics and theme.
Look here, at around 6:30 seconds in.
If need be, I will find the Movie portion when the Enterprise E pulled this same maneuver.
I would not like to see it added to Tribble; it would be a waste of development resources to implement an idea that has not even survived 45 minutes of Devil's Advocate.
I don't recall it happening in any of the Next Gen movies though. The Defiant pulled a loop (or an L4?) during the finale of DS9.
2 points here - 1. The Crazy Ivan involved rotating the ship on the horizontal axis using your port engine flying forwards and your starboard engine flying backwards, not flipping over the enemy and coming in behind him.
2. It was in the Firefly series, not Andromeda.
^This^ Right here.
I could understand the cool animation, as I said, but it adds nothing that's not available already, to every single captain. In fact, I would say that the in-game version (which I think of as "take the flank") is better, because it's more realistic in that ships with better maneuverability can pull it off more often, while lumbering behemoths must plan and work to pull it off.
By the way, when you go dead stop to allow your pursuer to overtake you, do you just hit "R" and allow them to overtake, or do you risk the reverse power drain by hitting "R" and then "Q" in rapid succession in order to enhance your chances of them overtaking you and ending up with their aft quarter in your sights?
Oh, and technically, aren't you thinking of a loop-the-loop?
10 points to Bort!
Well, I have learned over the many years of posting forums, that if you argue your point (especially when you are the only one who agrees with yourself) too much, people tend to feel as though you are ignoring their points. Or they feel that you are the type person who thinks that you are the only one who has an opinion that matters. People tend to turn your valid arguments into, "You simply refuse to listen to what others are saying." At a fast point, you are viewed as somebody who is thick headed instead of viewed as somebody who is making points. Once somebody makes this statement about you, everyone else tends to believe this statement, even though you know yourself this is not your intention.
So when I can start seeing that I am the only person who agrees with myself within the first three pages, I give it up before it gets out of hand.
It's been a good policy so far, I see no reason to change it, heh.
So, you want a battleship to perform a Immelmann? That, after all, is what your "L4 maneuver" is in modern-day terms (the aerobatic move has nothing to do with the original combat maneuver).
The ONLY ship this kind of maneuver makes any sense at all for is ships with fixed forward guns - as the Immelmann was originally designed to get the front machine guns of a biplane onto a target quickly. The ONLY Starfleet ships we've seen that it would make any sense for are shuttles, Peregines, and Defiant-class ships with non-turreted (or "stripped") weapons. A ship with turrets would easily be able to track and maintain fire on any ship attempting this maneuver, possibly hitting a weak spot as the ship doing it moved. As a side note, in another sci-fi based game (EvE) this is precisely why there's a artifical limitation on the speed that turrets "turn" based onthe size of the weapon fitted - so that battleships can't oneshot frigates)
Just because they showed it in a episode or two doesn't mean it makes sense, after all. Remember that most Trek writers really didn't have a true handle on Science, and instead used Hollywood Science. There, anything goes, nonsensical or not.
Just remember that ST battles are based on the "Ships In Space" concept, NOT the aircraft one seen in things like SW, Wing Commander, and other similar shows. Save for Defiant flyers (which are closer to corvettes/destroyers using this paradigm), we're flying captial ships.
Ugh, You're preaching to the choir, man. I can not agree with almost anything you said. Don't get me wrong, I am finished trying to make this topic a reality in game, but you are trying to combine real life with Star Trek. Not happening. If everything in this game had to make Scientific sense, it would be dull, boring and no fun at all. Not to mention that if this game were more "real" we would not have any issues pulling that maneuver off on our own to begin with, since space has no up, down, left, right.
Long story short, you are not telling me anything that I do not already know. :cool:
What's that, a fellow Firefly fan?
I declare that this thread is now about Firefly. (j/k)
I can't beleive how many Firefly Fans there are in this one thread. I guess looks can be deceiving.