test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Cryptic, what are we paying for?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I've been playing the game a little over a week now. I had intended to buy it when it first launched, but had a gut feeling that I shouldnt, and the more I play now the more I realize that feeling was right.

My Klingon faction character has just hit lt commander, and as the free ship I chose the somraw raptor, only to find out that it has zero customization options whatsoever. I spent the 40k credits to try out the other two t2 ships, and neither of them have any customization options either.

Klingon missions are severely lacking compared to the Federation side, and while I can understand that it takes time to write out and implement all the new content, but you shouldnt have even released the faction in the state it's currently in.

As an MMORPG, the monthly fee is to be expected, but then you go and charge us on the c-store to get things that should have been included with the game when it shipped. Not only that, but much of the content from the c-store has errors in it - both the Ily and MajQa bridges have model errors where you can see space through the ship's hull (and beyond that, the klingon sickbay on all ships has similar clipping errors in its walls). If you want to charge people for 'extra' stuff that has no real impact on the game and is only for aesthetic value, the least you could do is put in a complete product, not something that was botched together and bugged.

Past the customization and model issues, this game is plagued with crash-to-desktop bugs and server connection loss issues during loading screens. More than a dozen times I've had to restart a mission because of crashes or server disconnects halfway through - on both factions.

To even think that you're working on the Romulan faction already with the state that the Klingons are in is laughable, and I have no doubts that they'll probably be in just as bad a state, wouldnt be surprised if you charged us to play them either.



When a customer buys a product, they expect that product to be in complete, working condition without flaws. When flaws are found, or when the product does not work as advertised, they demand a refund. I'm not sure your company could afford to refund all of the players that have been cheated out of their money here for an inferior product. The least you could do is get your people in gear and focus on fixing the bugs that riddle this game, if it had any more you could probably market STO as an internet ant farm.
Post edited by Unknown User on
«13

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Since you're still in your free month (first 30 days) you're not paying them for anything. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Cosmic_One wrote: »
    Since you're still in your free month (first 30 days) you're not paying them for anything. :)
    Well technically a little since he bought the box.
    And even then subbing only pays for access to the server.
    Telbasta wrote:
    My Klingon faction character has just hit lt commander, and as the free ship I chose the somraw raptor, only to find out that it has zero customization options whatsoever. I spent the 40k credits to try out the other two t2 ships, and neither of them have any customization options either.
    Issue here is Fed customization vs Klingon customization?
    And there are plenty of options, ship color, ship pattern, ship pattern color, different bridges and 3 sizes for interiors. My Raptor is green with purple highlights. :D
    And they do get more options with higher tier ships.
    Telbasta wrote:
    As an MMORPG, the monthly fee is to be expected, but then you go and charge us on the c-store to get things that should have been included with the game when it shipped.
    Complaints on the C-store are so biased unless one recognize the fact that most of todays P2P MMOs these days go them.
    And everything in the C-Store is optional. Nothing is needed to play the game. Unless you set your mind to that you need fancy looks to improve your fun factor.
    Telbasta wrote:
    Past the customization and model issues, this game is plagued with crash-to-desktop bugs and server connection loss issues during loading screens. More than a dozen times I've had to restart a mission because of crashes or server disconnects halfway through - on both factions.
    Rarely if ever crash here. It does increase a bit after each new Season but it is to be expected with a giant patch.
    Sometimes it can be your connection and/or hardware that causes issues. Says me with a 4 year old piece of junk and a semi decent connection.
    Telbasta wrote:
    To even think that you're working on the Romulan faction already with the state that the Klingons are in is laughable, and I have no doubts that they'll probably be in just as bad a state, wouldnt be surprised if you charged us to play them either.
    They aren't working on Romulan faction until Klingons are more complete...

    Telbasta wrote:
    When a customer buys a product, they expect that product to be in complete, working condition without flaws. When flaws are found, or when the product does not work as advertised, they demand a refund. I'm not sure your company could afford to refund all of the players that have been cheated out of their money here for an inferior product. The least you could do is get your people in gear and focus on fixing the bugs that riddle this game, if it had any more you could probably market STO as an internet ant farm
    A MMO is never complete.
    A game i never without flaws(Hello Fallout 3).

    The refund part might have had some solid ground at launch but not now. It has improved leaps and bounds since that time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Yes Cryptic...what are we paying for? Why isn't there a dev signed ban hammer in the Cryptic giftshop?!:mad::D:p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Telbasta wrote:
    When a customer buys a product, they expect that product to be in complete, working condition without flaws. When flaws are found, or when the product does not work as advertised, they demand a refund. I'm not sure your company could afford to refund all of the players that have been cheated out of their money here for an inferior product. The least you could do is get your people in gear and focus on fixing the bugs that riddle this game, if it had any more you could probably market STO as an internet ant farm.

    You know this applies to every video game that exists, right? They all have bugs that make it into the final product. Personally I think Cryptic is doing a pretty good job dealing with the larger issues that pop up. Before coming to this game I use to play SWG and that game has tons of bugs in it. And it's been out with over 7 years!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Akalayus wrote:
    You know this applies to every video game that exists, right? They all have bugs that make it into the final product. Personally I think Cryptic is doing a pretty good job dealing with the larger issues that pop up. Before coming to this game I use to play SWG and that game has tons of bugs in it. And it's been out with over 7 years!

    So can we finish the deferi episodes yet? how long has it been? FANTASTIC JOB.

    It would be different if the game had mass amounts of content , then you could let something like A MAJOR EPISODE stay bugged for a bit. AS far as the OP's question , you are paying for exactly what cryptic decides to give you. If you don't like it leave, thats the advice you will get on these forums.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Xtorma wrote: »
    So can we finish the deferi episodes yet? how long has it been? FANTASTIC JOB.

    It would be different if the game had mass amounts of content , then you could let something like A MAJOR EPISODE stay bugged for a bit. AS far as the OP's question , you are paying for exactly what cryptic decides to give you. If you don't like it leave, thats the advice you will get on these forums.

    I don't know about you but myself and i would gather many others have been able to finish those missions ever since they went live.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Cormoran wrote: »
    I don't know about you but myself and i would gather many others have been able to finish those missions ever since they went live.

    I believe something has happened to Cold Case after Season 3 went live. Myself and many others are currently stuck and can not proceed any further on this mission. Still, i have plenty to do otherwise, my mission log is forever full :p

    Off topic and on a different note, how do i get to change my Forum Name to include the blue text? Before anyone replies with LTS, i purchased mine yesterday yet can not seem to find the option to adjust. Thanks :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    from the forums goto 'my account'. in the control panel list under miscellaneous is 'group memberships' you can change it there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Cormoran wrote: »
    from the forums goto 'my account'. in the control panel list under miscellaneous is 'group memberships' you can change it there.

    Thanks very much indeed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Xtorma wrote: »
    So can we finish the deferi episodes yet? how long has it been? FANTASTIC JOB.

    .

    Congrats this is the first time out of your seemingly endless posts complaining about this that you have been close to being on topic with the thread you are posting in.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    VVargazm wrote:
    Congrats this is the first time out of your seemingly endless posts complaining about this that you have been close to being on topic with the thread you are posting in.

    Yes , I am quite proud of myself , and your endorsement makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I think I will save this post just to remind myself how truly effective repetition is. Squeeky wheel and all that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Nothing new here.... Same old bones of contention. The current leadership of STO is well aware of the issues and are addressing them. I would suggest for the OP to do some homework using the forum thread search function to get up to speed on all that has been going on for nearly the past year then reconsider the original post and its merits.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Xtorma wrote: »
    Yes , I am quite proud of myself , and your endorsement makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I think I will save this post just to remind myself how truly effective repetition is. Squeeky wheel and all that.

    I'm not the least bit surprised you would be proud of spamming the forums (Violating more then one of the forum rules) over a little bug that has developed right after a large update. The childish nature of your rantings has made it clear you would take pride in your useless effort.

    What exactly do you think your post are going to accomplish?
    It would seem you imagine some kind action from the developers in response to your ramblings.
    Maybe something like this?

    DEV 1: Wow that's like the 100th post from this loon crying about a bug in the breen missions.
    DEV 2: Oh yeah we got a bunch of bug reports about that the day season 3 went live.
    DEV 1: OK I remember now, we weren't ever going to fix that bug right?
    DEV 2: That's right, we figured no one cared enough for us to bother.
    DEV 1: Well this guy Xtorma seems really up set about it.
    DEV 2: Wow. Really? Well we had not intention of ever fixing this bug ever, but if that one guy is really
    angry about it I guess we will should fix it.
    DEV 1: You are right we should drop everything else and fix this bug right now.
    DEV 2: OK, well there we go and it only took a minute. Now let write this cry baby a formal letter of apology.
    DEV 1: That's just not good enough for the hardship we have caused him, maybe we should resign for
    our failure as well.
    DEV 2: Indeed we should.

    Back in reality the bug is being worked on and will be fixed just like every other bug that a big patch has caused. So you could have just saved us all the drama and waited like everyone else with a little bit of dignity.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    VVargazm wrote:
    I'm not the least bit surprised you would be proud of spamming the forums (Violating more then one of the forum rules) over a little bug that has developed right after a large update. The childish nature of your rantings has made it clear you would take pride in your useless effort.

    What exactly do you think your post are going to accomplish?
    It would seem you imagine some kind action from the developers in response to your ramblings.
    Maybe something like this?

    DEV 1: Wow that's like the 100th post from this loon crying about a bug in the breen missions.
    DEV 2: Oh yeah we got a bunch of bug reports about that the day season 3 went live.
    DEV 1: OK I remember now, we weren't ever going to fix that bug right?
    DEV 2: That's right, we figured no one cared enough for us to bother.
    DEV 1: Well this guy Xtorma seems really up set about it.
    DEV 2: Wow. Really? Well we had not intention of ever fixing this bug ever, but if that one guy is really
    angry about it I guess we will should fix it.
    DEV 1: You are right we should drop everything else and fix this bug right now.
    DEV 2: OK, well there we go and it only took a minute. Now let write this cry baby a formal letter of apology.
    DEV 1: That's just not good enough for the hardship we have caused him, maybe we should resign for
    our failure as well.
    DEV 2: Indeed we should.

    Back in reality the bug is being worked on and will be fixed just like every other bug that a big patch has caused. So you could have just saved us all the drama and waited like everyone else with a little bit of dignity.

    Nicely put.

    What i don't get about about the OP is how in just a week he has seemingly done everything and is now bored? I've been playing for around a month, and yes i have other things going on in my life but i do make time for the wonderful game when i can. Yes the Cold Case mission is annoying that i can't finish it at the moment, but rather than whine on the forums, i reported it to a GM who was very quick to inform me the situation, and i got on with the rest of my packed mission log. If in just a week you are bored and wondering what you are paying for, simply STO isn't for you. Yet i'm sure you are getting enough out of your money constantly trolling these forums.
    Two days ago i decided to go LTS, after such a big improvement to the game since i tried things first time around on the Beta. I'm looking forward to a long and great future with this game. If Cryptic can do what they have done in the first year, this time next year things will be looking very rosy indeed. I wish people would get the mentality of everything must have the polish and content of Wow out of their heads, as there is a 5 year gap.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    What i don't get about about the OP is how in just a week he has seemingly done everything and is now bored?

    I didnt say I was bored, I said that the plethora of bugs and the lack of options for the klingon faction are frustrating issues that need to be resolved.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Telbasta wrote:
    I didnt say I was bored, I said that the plethora of bugs and the lack of options for the klingon faction are frustrating issues that need to be resolved.

    That might have something to do with the fact that the Klinks were supposed to be a PvP only faction. Enough of them got upset about that fact that cryptic is playing catch up trying to get them close to equal with the feds, all while the have to keep adding content for the fed.

    I don't play the klink side so I don't know for sure but i would guess as of later they are doing a better job with klink content as i don't see 100 threads all crying about the same thing here.

    If you really think the klingons get the short end of the stick, you should have been here at launch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    VVargazm wrote:
    That might have something to do with the fact that the Klinks were supposed to be a PvP only faction. Enough of them got upset about that fact that cryptic is playing catch up trying to get them close to equal with the feds, all while the have to keep adding content for the fed.

    I don't play the klink side so I don't know for sure but i would guess as of later they are doing a better job with klink content as i don't see 100 threads all crying about the same thing here.

    If you really think the klingons get the short end of the stick, you should have been here at launch.

    Again, it is simply a lack of historical understanding that the OP is suffering from.

    I really wish Dan would start an official STO chronology log and itemize all the evolutionary issues that have transpired since the prerelease hype, CB & OB and finally release -etc... He could list things from the executive producer perspective, the dev team in general, and the community. I think such a document would serve all interested parties well in the future and newbie players will have a proper reference tool to digest prior to ranting on the forums and save themselves, the devs and the community a lot of needless aggravation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    .Spartan wrote: »
    Again, it is simply a lack of historical understanding that the OP is suffering from.

    I really wish Dan would start an official STO chronology log and itemize all the evolutionary issues that have transpired since the prerelease hype, CB & OB and finally release -etc... He could list things from the executive producer perspective, the dev team in general, and the community. I think such a document would serve all interested parties well in the future and newbie players will have a proper reference tool to digest prior to ranting on the forums and save themselves, the devs and the community a lot of needless aggravation.

    That would be nice. It is getting a bit old hearing people cry over what is nothing compared to 9 months ago.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    .Spartan wrote: »
    Again, it is simply a lack of historical understanding that the OP is suffering from.

    I really wish Dan would start an official STO chronology log and itemize all the evolutionary issues that have transpired since the prerelease hype, CB & OB and finally release -etc... He could list things from the executive producer perspective, the dev team in general, and the community. I think such a document would serve all interested parties well in the future and newbie players will have a proper reference tool to digest prior to ranting on the forums and save themselves, the devs and the community a lot of needless aggravation.
    The engineering reports serve a similar purpose, extremely useful. Though a more formal chronology wouldn't go amiss... However as the old saying goes "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    VVargazm wrote:
    That would be nice. It is getting a bit old hearing people cry over what is nothing compared to 9 months ago.

    I was compiling a list of improvements over the past months based on the SotGs and ERs, but it quickly became a huge monster of an seemingly endless list.

    However, Craig's SotG back from May addressess most of the changes of Season 1 and 2 :

    http://startrekonline.com/node/1730

    To the OP :

    Klingons are still well behind in terms of available content, but just to make it clear :

    Klingon pve missions at launch = 0
    Klingon pve missions at the launch of Season 3 = 8 (klingon only) + 5 (breen) + 5 (devidian) + 3 (undine) + 8 dailies + 3 klingon only dailies = 32 (not counting the dailies it's still 21 storyline missions)

    Klingons can also do all 4 STFs and 5 Fleet Actions.

    As I said above.. Klingon content certainly is less impressive in terms of quantity, but kllngons get more and more content with each update rightfully so.

    Aside from all these things, the Foundry will also help them in the near future. I know there are people who desire to redo all fed content to klingon where appropriate, I know people who create only klingon missions with storyline and devoted to klingon lore.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I imagine a dev reply like this:

    MustrumRidcully Monthly Fee (15 $*):
    5 $: dstahls Starbuck coffee on the first monday of the month.
    2.5 $: 2 lines of code by coderanger.
    1.5 $: One thread view by Stormshade
    0.5 $: One chat post on TTS by Zero.
    2.5. $: 5 Donuts for Dev meeting.

    *) Is that what I pay? I don't remember.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Xtorma wrote: »
    ... you are paying for exactly what cryptic decides to give you. If you don't like it leave, thats the advice you will get on these forums.

    And it is the best advice you will ever recieve when it comes to a subscription based service. You can try thread-spamming and crying to the moon about what a rip-off you think it is and how its all a big shake down or any of the 1000 other whaa-whaa-thread themes, but at the end of the day, the only vote that counts is the vote you make with your $.

    And, speaking for myself, as someone who likes the game and prefers threads to be constructive in their criticism (instead of whiney "Cryptic, WHY?!" rants), I would appreciate it if some of the louder haters would just quit paying to complain and would go away.

    I won't hold my breath thou.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    boglejam wrote: »
    And it is the best advice you will ever receive when it comes to a subscription based service. You can try thread-spamming and crying to the moon about what a rip-off you think it is and how its all a big shake down or any of the 1000 other whaa-whaa-thread themes, but at the end of the day, the only vote that counts is the vote you make with your $.

    And, speaking for myself, as someone who likes the game and prefers threads to be constructive in their criticism (instead of whiney "Cryptic, WHY?!" rants), I would appreciate it if some of the louder haters would just quit paying to complain and would go away.

    I won't hold my breath thou.

    "You can call me The TRIBBLE Hammer from this point forward. "


    OH...oh...oh.... Can I be the Dysfunctional Screwdriver...

    Please... Please... PLEASE??? :p;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Green117 wrote: »
    I believe something has happened to Cold Case after Season 3 went live. Myself and many others are currently stuck and can not proceed any further on this mission. Still, i have plenty to do otherwise, my mission log is forever full :p

    Off topic and on a different note, how do i get to change my Forum Name to include the blue text? Before anyone replies with LTS, i purchased mine yesterday yet can not seem to find the option to adjust. Thanks :)

    I just completed the deferi quest chain with four different toons since season 3 went live....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    DaveyNY wrote: »
    OH...oh...oh.... Can I be the Dysfunctional Screwdriver...

    Please... Please... PLEASE??? :p;)

    Sure. It'd be nice if there were enough of us unintelligent tools to fill a toolbox. We just need some folks to step up and be the Simple Sawzall or the Wrong-headed Wrench.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I imagine a dev reply like this:

    MustrumRidcully Monthly Fee (15 $*):
    5 $: dstahls Starbuck coffee on the first monday of the month.
    2.5 $: 2 lines of code by coderanger.
    1.5 $: One thread view by Stormshade
    0.5 $: One chat post on TTS by Zero.
    2.5. $: 5 Donuts for Dev meeting.

    *) Is that what I pay? I don't remember.

    If that's what you really believe it's time to stop paying.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    boglejam wrote: »
    Sure. It'd be nice if there were enough of us unintelligent tools to fill a toolbox. We just need some folks to step up and be the Simple Sawzall or the Wrong-headed Wrench.

    I'll ask my Ex-GF if she wants to fill in as the TRIBBLE Tool Box to hold us all... ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I just completed the deferi quest chain with four different toons since season 3 went live....

    Well you are simply one of a very some number that this has happened too. And since this bug fix is in the December 21st Release notes, goes a long way to show what issues many of us had with Cold Case.

    Thanks Cryptic for the fix and i look forward to finishing this story arc later on tomorrow :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    DaveyNY wrote: »
    I'll ask my Ex-GF if she wants to fill in as the TRIBBLE Tool Box to hold us all... ;)

    Whoa...count me out. Don't want the toolbox HIV. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    for shame... :mad:

    i can't believe the once mighty roach and spartan have become complete cryptic tools.
    you guys USED to be some of the loudest players for game completion.
    instead you sit here and bug the poor OP about "not paying enough money yet" and "needing to read other ANCIENT threads"

    the reason why those threads are SO ancient is becuase the ORIGINAL problems of the game are NOT FIXED.... 12 MONTHS LATER :eek:

    the TRIBBLE that bugs MOST players is STILL NOT FIXED.

    so what if Dan Stahl is a miracle worker when compared to the doofy devs who ran this side show farce at launch!

    thats like saying Moussillini isnt so bad when you compare him to hitler.
    or being ripped off for a thousand bucks aint so bad because you got ripped off for 2000 bucks last week.

    these arguments are ignorant!

    this attitude is what causes NEW plyers, who bring in NEW money into the game, to cancel their accounts!
    this is why this game is so starved for development funds!

    maybe if dan pulled some teams off neverwinter to FINISH THIS GAME, people wouldnt need to start a whole new thread that is a repeat of HUNDREDS of previous threads.

    no "homework" needs to be done to present the FACTS!
    dont get all over the poor OP's case because he has NO IDEA how many hundreds of players have made this argument before!

    the fact remains is that another star trek fan is grossly dissappointed and feels ripped off!
    why doesnt he just go and play another , beter implimented, and more complete MMO!?!?!
    maybe because he is a STAR TREK FAN!!!

    but with your negative backlash... i am sure he will be packing up for either TOR or WoW REAL soon!
    and...
    *** the lack of commitment from cryptic contributes a significant incentive for new players to leave the game as well!!!!

    the sad truth is that you two have grown so accustomed to being dissappointed that you ACCEPT cryptics inability to complete the game 12 months past its release...
    just as they leisurely accept your money!!!
    A SAD TRUTH INDEED!

    what's ironic is that if the OP did his "homework" he would find you two, specifically, in post ofter post, thread after thread, saying the EXACT SAME WORDS as the OP did...
    how messed up is THAT?!?!?
    and you dare get on his case...

    i would quote you guys to make you look like a bunch of hypocrits, but i dont have enough room here to fit all the quotes of you two RAILING against cryptic for their endless list of EPIC FAILS!

    i have an idea...
    instead of bothering this poor dude about his post, why dont you join him and continue to bother ctyptic to do the following:

    FINISH THE GAME
    FINISH THE KLINGONS
    GIVE KLINGONS EQUAL CONSIDERATION for C-STORE and CUSTIMIZATION
    GIVE KLINGONS ACCESS TO MORE SECTOR BLOCKS
    GIVE KLINGONS VERSIONS OF ALL FLEET ACTIONS
    GIVE KLINGONS MORE PvE CONTENT
    MAKE NEW PvP CONTENT FOR ALL SIDES

    maybe if we didnt alienate new players and dismiss their input so much...
    we'd have a lot more new players around....

    this is a business... and these customers are UNHAPPY with the product... no matter how little it costs them
    and they have EVERY RIGHT to give their feedback (especially in the feedback section of the forums)

    how much money did WE blow on this game?!?!
    60 bucks plus 15 bucks a month!?!?
    if anything we should be complaining louder and MORE OFTEN then this OP!

    FOR SHAME... :mad:
Sign In or Register to comment.