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Families on Starships

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
It's a known fact that in the 24th Century before the Dominion War, that Starfleet allowed families aboard Galaxy-class ships, due to their extended deployments.

In times of extreme emergency, those civilians were put off the ship before it went into combat. But in this new era, with war all around us, does it make sense for Starfleet to continue to allow families aboard ship?
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    It might just be me, but I haven't seen any families aboard the ships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Wasn't just Galaxy-class. The Saratoga had families and it was a Miranda-offshoot and they kept the families on board at Wolf 359.

    My guess is that whether families were on board or not was duty dependent. If they were going to do deep space exploration and be gone for years at a time, then yes, families went. And if they were going to be closer to home, then no. Since we're at war, I'd say its a blanket no.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Even at a very young age watching TNG I knew that keeping families onboard was super irresponsible.

    You never know when Data is going to flip out and takeover the ship, or the holodeck become real, or the ship develop its own brain and set course to vertiform city...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I don't imagine there would be any families living on ships right now as the Federation is at open war with the Klingon empire.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I think the feds should still have families.
    The Feds aren't in an open war with the Klinks.. they are in a selective war where they group up and capture certain points and hold them, rinse and repeat... maybe once they add Open PVP.. sure no families cause then the war actually begins.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    "Combat fatigue; the new epidemic hitting our children"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Cormoran wrote: »
    "Combat fatigue; the new epidemic hitting our children"

    That's nothing new...

    Parents have been whacking their kids since Cain told his mom Eve, that he might have accidentally dropped his sickle on Able. :eek:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    It was a stupid idea. If after the first season of TNG a person still kept their family aboard the Enterprise-D they should be hauled in for child abuse.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    DaveyNY wrote: »
    That's nothing new...

    Parents have been whacking their kids since Cain told his mom Eve, that he might have accidentally dropped his sickle on Able. :eek:

    Who raised Cain to think that way? :D

    Families on star ships during war? Common sense says no. We saw Families on starships in TNG because the need to reinforce the concept of Star Trek being about peaceful exploration. The phasers didn't come out as often and were remodeled to look less like guns and more like dust busters. As much as I love TOS, Kirk was a bit quick to TJ Hooker roll and round house aliens coining the phase 'We come in peace, shoot to kill men"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    blumonday wrote: »
    I think the feds should still have families.
    The Feds aren't in an open war with the Klinks.. they are in a selective war where they group up and capture certain points and hold them, rinse and repeat... maybe once they add Open PVP.. sure no families cause then the war actually begins.

    Oh dear, open PvP, I hope they keep that limited to certain sectors.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    DaveyNY wrote: »
    That's nothing new...

    Parents have been whacking their kids since Cain told his mom Eve, that he might have accidentally dropped his sickle on Able. :eek:

    I'm thinking more along the lines of kids with phaser rifles and thousand yard stares. Actually with all the TRIBBLE that goes on in ships i'd say starfleet children are more exposed to warfare by the time they hit puberty than even klingon children. They molly coddle their kids on the homeworld when they should be strapped to the hull like ours! no wonder we always whoop them...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    From an RP perspective, I'm sure you can justify about anything. Maybe you were on a long range diplomatic mission, exploration...lost in space what have you. Hence, you have families still onboard.

    However, from a game mechanic perspective, what are you going to do with families onboard?

    Have little Sally take your Tac Officer's position on your away team, and instead of a phaser rifle, her teddy bear, and her security blanket for shields?

    Lets get our crew working first before worrying about being able to visit our online NPC spouse and children when we aren't out wiping peaceful civilizations off the face of their planet...

    I don't know about you, but isn't that the point of playing an MMO is to get away from changing diapers, milk runs and fixing the lawnmower? :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Regarding the presence of families on starships, Ronald D. Moore commented "Perhaps [still] on some Galaxy-class ships, but I think this was an experiment that failed." (AOL chat, 1997) "I think that the "family friendly" starship notion was an interesting idea, but one that didn't pan out. There was always something awkward about Picard ordering the ship into battle situations with kiddies running through the corridors. And no matter how much lip service we paid to the "our families are part of our strength" concept, it never seemed very smart or very logical to bring the spouse and kids along when you're facing down the Borg, or guarding the Neutral Zone, or plunging the ship into uncharted spatial anomalies."

    From http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class

    I tend to agree with this. It makes no sense to have families on board when you could run into a hostile alien species at any moment or a horrible anomaly that destroys the ship, etc. If I was an officer on board the Enterprise-D, I would purposely leave my family behind. Yeah, I would miss them but I would rather they be safe than be subjected to the Borg or something else just as horrible.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Sprint01 wrote:
    It's a known fact that in the 24th Century before the Dominion War, that Starfleet allowed families aboard Galaxy-class ships, due to their extended deployments.

    In times of extreme emergency, those civilians were put off the ship before it went into combat. But in this new era, with war all around us, does it make sense for Starfleet to continue to allow families aboard ship?

    what.



    The Families on ships thing was never a truly prominent thing in Star fleet. You perhaps had some officers bring their families aboard but generally the ships simply aren't laid out for THAT.

    Mirandas, Excelsiors etc. Simply not ships you can dump a load of civilians on.


    The Galaxy Class was the FIRST ship (as you can observe in Yesterdays Enterprise, the Ambassador class, the DIRECT predecessor to the Galaxy did not feature the broad civilian facilities, and in fact civis were never mentioned to have been a standard there.) to be specifically MADE to be able to accommodate a large crew and said crews family. The Ship was born out of the Optimistic Mindset that lulled the Federation after it has enjoyed such a prolonged period of peace. No klingons or romulans making trouble, no other force able to mount a credible threat.

    Thats when they decided to build their newest long range explorer in a way that not only made it a decent ship, but also a monument to this era of peace (and starfleets overconfidence).

    It is the single most largest, powerful and advanced shipclass you have build. And you build it for long range exploration, able to keep the crew happy and do its job. Having your families with you is of course good for morale. They even got SCHOOLS and children daycares!!!! On a spaceship!!!!

    If that does not say "WOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PEACE AND EXPLORATION WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" to anyone looking at that i do not know what else (besides perhaps: "look, we build this as a luxury cruise ship and it still kicks your arses from here to there - pray we never build warships.").



    The Borg knocked that attitude down a notch, but did not truly change it. Heck, not even the plentyfil DEATH BRINGING ANOMALIES that they encountered every week changed this.
    Then came the dominion. For the first time starfleet vessels were lost in NUMBERS, and ever since then we have not seen civis on starships. And why would there be. The Federation now is surrounded by enemies. What kind of man/woman would take his/her children/wife/husband onto a ship that might get attacked? Heck as others said: who would EVER take their loved ones onto the journey into DEATH SPACE?!


    HECK, doing our missions in STO we have seen our share of horrible deaths on board of starfleet ships.

    The IDEA of building another ship made to carry civies is idiotic after what has happened and still is.



    So, Families on board of modern Starfleet ships is a big NO go. Does not make sense. And no sane man would risk his family like that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Given the past examples in the shows, I'd say it is situational. Long range exploration or "boring" scientific analysis? Sure. Going into combat? No way.

    Personally, I like how they did it in the "Star Trek : Borg" game, whose scenes were shot in the studios and whose story was created by one of the regular writers of the series: video
    With a major battle against the Borg coming up (-> First Contact), the Captain of the USS Cheyenne simply orders all non-essential personnel (read: civvies and cadets) to be evacuated, with the ship stopping at a nearby starbase to drop them off before proceeding to rendezvous with the fleet in Sector 001.

    PS: Don't overestimate the current conflict with the Klingon Empire. The Federation was at war with the Cardassians as well, and for a lot longer than just a year.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    The families aboard starships was an idea they originally toyed with and was more prominent in early TNG seasons, but as was pointed out it became inconcievable that the ship would be ordered into damgerous situations with a bunch of kids on board. In later seasons, you only saw them as plot devices. The last example of families aboard ships that I know of was in Star Trek: Generations. You never saw them on Enterprise-E (that I remember), in the movies.

    On Voyager, the only family members I remember where born there (Naomi Wildman, Miyral Paris).

    On DS9, the only example I know of is Jake and Jennifer Sisko aboard the Saratoga, a smaller Miranda Class Vessel. It may be construed that the Saratoga was meant for purely non combat scientific and diplomatic missions and was called to Wolf 359 at the last minute as an emergency (Wolf 359 is not that far from Earth, both in game, canonically, and is a real star in real life, close to us from an astronomical point of view). I never remember seeing mention of families on any other starships visiting the station or appearing on the show. You would like to think that the USS Odessey (a Galaxy Class ship) did not have a bunch of kids and families on board when it was destroyed by the Jem'Hadar.

    In game, if you rescue the Deferi from the Breen Patrol (as a Fed), then provoke the Breen and go into combat, you get a little speech from your tactical officer that Starfleet vessels are to avoid combat with civilians onboard. If they would get into such a stitch over a bunch of captives you just rescued, surely they wouldn't voluntarily put families onboard those same ships and order them into combat in most of the games missions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    TRIBBLE used children effectively before and during war. Hitler Jugen (Hitler Youth) they were the best fighters because they were; very loyal, very young, naive, easily brainwashed, much less experienced and less intelligent than adults. So in combat they fought very well better even than adults. So I guess Federation knows something us Klingons consider dishonorable to use kids in combat.


    Kids get wacked constantly everywhere on the planet earth by irresponsible adults, life and by themselves, probably more by themselves than adults and life.


    Ok but seriously, the idea of ST Federation side was not to fight 24/7 but to explore 24/7. If you happen to encounter hostiles and all other diplomatic solutions failed and you had to defend your ship then so be it. Even with families onboard that was still valid as Starship is or was your second home away from home.


    In game we fight more than we explore so if it was like that in real ST I doubt that Starfleet would bring children onboard their starships since it would have been immoral and unethical to do so.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Let's remove the "hostile aliens" aspect from the whole scenario and you're still left with starship disappearances without explanation or a variety of other mishaps which could put an entire crew at risk, never mind entire families. Yeah, I always thought this concept was ridiculous. Maybe if it were just patrol ships flying to Vulcan and back, i.e. ships relegated to "safe" space, but major ships like the Galaxy Class, who were at the forefront of 1st contact, exploration AND combat?

    Dumb. Idea.

    Gene served in WW II, didn't he? I guess he forgot about the Sullivan brothers...

    :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Families on ships was the best example of how overconfident, brash and reckless Starfleet had become. They'd been in relatively peaceful times for a long time (stuff like the Cardassian War were very minor and the Federation didn't go all out at all). They got way too sure of themselves. Then tons of families kept dying lol.

    The Borg and Dominion happened. Starfleet has since got knocked to it's senses.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Families on ships was the best example of how overconfident, brash and reckless Starfleet had become. They'd been in relatively peaceful times for a long time (stuff like the Cardassian War were very minor and the Federation didn't go all out at all). They got way too sure of themselves. Then tons of families kept dying lol.

    The Borg and Dominion happened. Starfleet has since got knocked to it's senses.

    Rumor is they brought back money as well.:)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Summers wrote: »
    Wasn't just Galaxy-class. The Saratoga had families and it was a Miranda-offshoot and they kept the families on board at Wolf 359.

    My guess is that whether families were on board or not was duty dependent. If they were going to do deep space exploration and be gone for years at a time, then yes, families went. And if they were going to be closer to home, then no. Since we're at war, I'd say its a blanket no.

    Hopefully, the families were only there because they were in a hurry. But otherwise, yeah.
    John0901 wrote:
    You would like to think that the USS Odessey (a Galaxy Class ship) did not have a bunch of kids and families on board when it was destroyed by the Jem'Hadar.

    Actually, they stopped to offload the families at DS9 before going down the wormhole. Which was pretty much the last mention of non-personnel on starships.

    However, even civilian space travel in secure space carries the risk of running afoul of Negative Space Wedgies, so in peacetime at least bringing the families along might not be inconceivable for a starfaring civilization. At least onboard a starship, there's a bunch of advanced scientific equipment and highly-trained personnel that might be able to plug the random potholes in spacetime they might come across.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    1234567890
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    WarpVis wrote: »
    Rumor is they brought back money as well.:)

    Money absolutely never disappeared. It's been in every single series except probably Voyager. The culture has just significantly less emphasis on money and the basic stuff doesn't take money.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Money absolutely never disappeared.
    Tell that to DS9. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Hopefully, the families were only there because they were in a hurry. But otherwise, yeah.



    Actually, they stopped to offload the families at DS9 before going down the wormhole. Which was pretty much the last mention of non-personnel on starships.

    However, even civilian space travel in secure space carries the risk of running afoul of Negative Space Wedgies, so in peacetime at least bringing the families along might not be inconceivable for a starfaring civilization. At least onboard a starship, there's a bunch of advanced scientific equipment and highly-trained personnel that might be able to plug the random potholes in spacetime they might come across.

    Until something like the Yamato happens. Then, you have to deal with losing over 1000 people, not just Starfleet personnel.

    I can understand if they thought it might be a bright idea if the original intention behind the Galaxy class was to stay out for long deployments, but to me it still seems like a dumb idea, because in every episode we saw the Enterprise or another ship going into some really dangerous places where I really wouldn't want to take a family.

    Or how about those random stand-offs with known enemies, like in "Data's Day", or times when the Enterprise was commandeered by someone. That is a heavy burden for any ship commander to not only be responsible for his or her own crew, but also the lives of civilians. It could also be a serious distraction. I know on the show it was championed as a strength for the Federation to allow civilians on space deployments, but I have to agree with the Ferengi in "Rascals" when he stated that they could also be a huge weakness.

    I would think that by the Dominion War times, Starfleet may have given that practice a second thought and just shorten deployment periods for starships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Gene Roddenberry was a genius no doubt about it and why it is hard for some to see his concept or idea when he created Star Trek.

    Federation was never about warships or war. The humanity in the 23rd century left the acquisition of wealth and money behind as it was pointless. Why was it pointless? For many reasons, because people simply realized that there is much more out there in the universe than just money and wealth. Technology like replicators could replicate diamonds, money, gold whatever you wanted. Which made all these wealth acquisitions pointless. So people had to look for other ways to progress and better themselves.

    To better themselves mankind had to reach much farther and deeper into the universe putting behind countless bloody wars that earth had and finally to learn from all of that and bring new era to humanity and not just humanity but other alien races out there. To unify all alien races that want the same goal or goals as the Federation.

    Life is like an exploration you never know what may happen today, tomorrow or week from now. You may encounter dangers, good things, bad things etc. Your family, kids constantly go through that exploration of life not knowing what will happen. So I guess if you don't want to get hurt then you have to stay home 24/7. I'm not sure if you guys can understand this but that is exactly the idea of exploring universe with your family and not flying warships and looking for fights but been on a peaceful starship exploring and hoping for the best.

    That don't mean that Fed ships are weak or that Federation didn't understand the concept of defense and fighting. Like with Buddhist monks who practice martial arts all their life and btw are one of the best fighters. They don't go looking for trouble but if it happen they can defend themselves deadly if necessary. Still their philosophy is not warlike but peaceful coexistence with others. With Starship captains it was similar many of them encounter many dangers which made them experienced fighters yet been peaceful in nature. Captain Picard is one good example.

    Federation in Gene's vision was the panicle of balance and existence with all in the universe even with the enemies of the Federation. When conflict was forced upon the Federation from the start Federation was thinking about peace and how to end war ASAP not to conquer. This concept maybe difficult to understand for many people living in the 21st century. But in Gene's Star Trek people have learn from the past and latest nuclear holocaust. That the war, aggression, conquest is simply not the answer.

    PS. Gene was perhaps like John Lennon a dreamer but it all starts with a dream doesn't it?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Families on Starship was a good idea, at the time. It allowed for Starfleet personnel to not get lonely and allowed for the ship to become more of a home rather than a job. You have to remember that during the TNG-era the Federation was at peace, and it had been that way since the end of the TMP-era. Right now the Federation is at war, the only way that a full family is on a Starship is if they don't have any children, both are Starfleet Officers, and both happened to be on the same ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    pdidy wrote: »
    You have to remember that during the TNG-era the Federation was at peace
    That's not exactly true. It's just that things like the Federation-Cardassian War and similar conflicts were not at the center of attention of the show because the Enterprise was elsewhere. Likewise, it should not be assumed that space travel is akin to suicide simply because the "hero ship" ended up almost having a warp core breach every 24 hours.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Hopefully, the families were only there because they were in a hurry. But otherwise, yeah.



    Actually, they stopped to offload the families at DS9 before going down the wormhole. Which was pretty much the last mention of non-personnel on starships.

    However, even civilian space travel in secure space carries the risk of running afoul of Negative Space Wedgies, so in peacetime at least bringing the families along might not be inconceivable for a starfaring civilization. At least onboard a starship, there's a bunch of advanced scientific equipment and highly-trained personnel that might be able to plug the random potholes in spacetime they might come across.

    I think the issue here, is that we don't know how relatively safe space travel is in comparison to say, travel by car nowadays. Or airplane.

    This is one of those rare occurrences where I like to break from canon, and remember that just because the E-D was in perilous danger every week, doesn't mean that's the norm (or indeed, that this wasn't just played up to make an interesting tv show). Otherwise we're left with the overall view that farting in the general direction of a Galaxy class puts it imminent danger of destruction.

    The other issue here, is that it could be entirely up to the civilian population as to what they do as well. If I was going to be serving on a starship for years on end, without ever seeing my wife, and I told her how perilous things could be, and she STILL wanted to go with me, I don't really see the problem.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I skimmed through some of the responses and I did not see it pointed out, though I apologize if it was, that originally the saucer separation was to be a standard occurence in which families in the saucer section would be kept safe when the stardrive section with it's "battle bridge" was forced into a combat situation. According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia - and as is common knowledge to a lot of fans - the idea was semi-dropped (it still appeared in The Best of Both Worlds and Generations) due to slowing down the pace of the show and due to the cost of special effects.

    I think the idea was originally that while Starfleet personnel would take their families aboard, every effort would be made to keep them safe. However, with how things turned out, we only saw saucer separation used a handful of times and the ultimate result was that the families would be taken into dangerous situations on a regular basis.

    I don't think there's an in universe explanation as to why the idea for saucer separation to keep the civilians safe was dropped. But out of universe, cost and story pacing pretty much led to Starfleet looking inexcusably irresponsible.
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