- Make the PvP instances HUGE. Like, crazy-huge. Enough to fit an insane amount of people in there (minimize queuing).
- Zone chat in that instance is Faction Only (eliminate the much-dreaded smack-talk).
- Make it territory claim/hold where you have to 1) claim a base orbiting a planet (space combat), then 2) claim the planet (ground combat). Once you have both the base AND the ground objective, that system is secured.
- Give everyone who happens to be in the Capital of which ever faction has the majority of these systems some "Awesome Buff of Awesome", and everyone who took part in the action some tokens that can be collected for "Awesome Gear of Awesome". This way, even those who don't participate in PvP will at least somewhat care about what's going on in the war zone, and those who participated get something unique that makes them stand out as seasoned war vets. Maybe even costume pieces that display their "PvP Rank" (making up a word there).
- When a system is under attack, people in the faction defending it get a message in their chat window announcing that such-and-such system is under attack, so people who care can go defend it.
- Sector Space in this PvP zone is free-for-all. If you see someone of an opposing faction flying through, you're free to engage them (pulls them into a DSE-style battle).
- Lower-levels can group up and attack higher-levels, but higher-levels CAN NOT initiate combat with lower-levels (minimizes griefing/ganking).
- Most importantly, this Sector Block has absolutely ZERO PvE content in it. You're only going in if you're a PvP'er, and when your Boff pops up to tell you that you're zoning in, you have to confirm that you understand it's a warzone.
This gives people a reason to fight, rewards for winning, a sense of achievement, and lets "those who despise PvP and all it stands for" no incentive to go in.
Make the PvP instances HUGE. Like, crazy-huge. Enough to fit an insane amount of people in there (minimize queuing).
Agreed, the instance/zones need to be large enough to have more than just 25 players at a time. One of the big complaints I hear about pvp is the lack of any suffecient open zones for fleetsized actions.
- Make it territory claim/hold where you have to 1) claim a base orbiting a planet (space combat), then 2) claim the planet (ground combat). Once you have both the base AND the ground objective, that system is secured.
Yes yes please.
- Give everyone who happens to be in the Capital of which ever faction has the majority of these systems some "Awesome Buff of Awesome", and everyone who took part in the action some tokens that can be collected for "Awesome Gear of Awesome". This way, even those who don't participate in PvP will at least somewhat care about what's going on in the war zone, and those who participated get something unique that makes them stand out as seasoned war vets. Maybe even costume pieces that display their "PvP Rank" (making up a word there).
Agreed, but I dislike any system that gives rewards to those whom do not participate.
- When a system is under attack, people in the faction defending it get a message in their chat window announcing that such-and-such system is under attack, so people who care can go defend it.
Yes, very much yes. It would be awesome to recieved such a message during play.
- Sector Space in this PvP zone is free-for-all. If you see someone of an opposing faction flying through, you're free to engage them (pulls them into a DSE-style battle).
I still advocate the "flagged" system. Flagged if you are participating in PvP (free to attack) or unflagged if you are not participating (can not attack or be attacked). The problem lies in how to keep players from toggling back and forth and using the the "unflagged" status as a defense against reprisals. Further more "unflagged" players will of course recieve no reward for being inzone during a victory
- Lower-levels can group up and attack higher-levels, but higher-levels CAN NOT initiate combat with lower-levels (minimizes griefing/ganking).
Unfortunately this will only lead (imo) to reverse level ganking and griefing, which is why I advocate the "flag" system.
- Most importantly, this Sector Block has absolutely ZERO PvE content in it. You're only going in if you're a PvP'er, and when your Boff pops up to tell you that you're zoning in, you have to confirm that you understand it's a warzone.
Agreed!! Though I would love a PvP scenario missions attached to the planetary systems in said sector that pull one into a mission where smaller groups can battle for control of said planetary control.
This gives people a reason to fight, rewards for winning, a sense of achievement, and lets "those who despise PvP and all it stands for" no incentive to go in.
Also another "possible" reason to why pvp isnt that active because its really stale atm. There hasnt been any solid pvp content in sometime... again people may just be bored of it... has that ever crossed your mind?? .
Lord knows that true, its why I haven't been too hyper to pvp lately. PvP has gotten stale due to its unchanging settings and the ad nauseum "KDF is OP" whines having ruined the fun for some. Whats the point of playing if win or lose you are still called a cheat,haxor, OP, etc, regardless of evidence to the contrary?
A lot of people I talk to in-game are like me -- they don't PvP because there's no "reason" to. Right now the only reason to PvP is to quell your urge to kill something that's not controlled by AI.
If success in the PvP Warzone I suggested above helps everyone within your faction, then there's more of a feeling of pride in it.
Happened all the time in another MMO I played where they separated PvE from PvP completely. Once you start getting those messages saying that your territory is falling, you feel more compelled to help.
(I'm purposely not naming the game because some people say I talk about it too much).
I'm not a PvPer, but I have done it from time to time, and I can see the attraction to some kind of persistent, objective based open PvP area. I think Sanford42's idea sounds pretty good, with a few exceptions. I can even see myself dropping by occasionally to be a target for you folks. I know that some PvEers would object, but I don't see an issue with a PvP only reward in a system like this. Maybe something like the reward system in the DSEs?
My only issue is that I want PvP to be totally separate when I'm running PvE missions. I don't want to see any kind of buffs from PvP if I'm not participating. I don't want PvP warnings flashing across my screen unless I'm in the open PvP zone. I don't want to have to go to the open PvP zone to do a PvE mission. I don't want to drop by ESD to find that all the mission givers/vendors are dead, and I don't want to see PvP battles taking place.
Some people like PvP and some people don't. Constant remiders that there is PvP in a game isn't going to convince the non-PvPers to participate.
I don't really understand how people think this will work.
As an example: there are 16 klingons and 48 federation players and they enter this open-pvp thingy.
How do the 16 have any chance of winning? and does your solution involve the 48 players sitting around endlessly waiting for something to happen?
Possibly solutions:
1) Engagement size limits - no more then 10 players per faction in a "combat arena". This would indeed leave a few of the players waiting.
2) PvE ships supporting the weaker side.
3) Different rules that compensate for team sizes - respawn times faster for smaller side, more generous goals for weaker side.
An Open PvP scenario might end up balancing the populations in the long run, since there is more incentive to check out the other faction if you're interested in Open PvP.
Thread title: "We wanted PvP *NOT* PvE [page 1 of 456]". It is very hard to sell this, and pretty hard work out a non-exploitable ruleset - besides which NPCs in this game are incredibly stupid.
3) Different rules that compensate for team sizes - respawn times faster for smaller side, more generous goals for weaker side.
It is incredibly hard to see how that would work - first contact is 16 vs 8, the 8 get wiped out, the 16 all live. It is hard to make a ruleset where the 8 don't automatically lose, that is acceptable to the players.
An Open PvP scenario might end up balancing the populations in the long run, since there is more incentive to check out the other faction if you're interested in Open PvP.
That is possible, but I don't think you can build an open-pvp system based on the premise that pvp populations will balance themselves 'somehow'. WHO seems a pretty good example of believing that things will fix themselves - by the time that happens your game is deserted.
--
My own view is that PvP has to be population limited, not much different to the current PvP... I suspect a lot of players are expecting something entirely different.
I am not a huge PVP'er but I do like it sometimes. Open PVP is a great idea for STO. and allowing players to flag themselves if they do not enjoy that style of play is really a win win for everyone. Just like Sector space. Some like astrometrics some don't, so they designed it with everyone in mind. Same can be done with Open PVP.
Having that danger lurking at all times to have someone tag you and drop you out of warp for a fight is pretty exciting if you ask me. And if it is not for you then don't flag yourself for PVP and you are left alone. Don't see how anyone could be against a system like this as long as you're given a choice.
Maybe they could even make it so that if, lets say a Klingon player tags you, and you drop out of warp, and have to fight him, and you win the fight, that kill counts as 1/10 kills toward your defend the sector missions. Or simply have a new PVP defend the sector mission that uses these kills. Lots of fun possibilities with open PVP.
I would give us a different variant to the defend the sector in this way but I like that idea!
I'm not a PVP'er mainly because I don't like the queue system. (It feels like I'm playing a Half Life deathmatch or something). It takes my mind out of the STO world and reminds me that I'm playing a game. What I would like to see is an opening of the faction territories.
Right now Feds can't enter Klingon space, and vice versa. As a Fed I'd love to fly into KDF territory, try to avoid being caught by any KDF players, and make it to Qo'Nos. If I die trying it, that's my own dang fault. I'd also love to see cloaked KDF ships make it to ESD and beam themselves aboard.
The problem with this is that people who don't want anything to do with PvP wouldn't want Klingons coming in and attacking them, or Klingons coming in and killing the NPCs they need to chat with. Like it was mentioned earlier in this thread a PVP flag on the player's character would be a good solution. If you've activated the PVP flag, you'll only be loaded into PVP assigned instances. If you don't have it active, you'd only be loaded into PvE instances. (Granted, it'd take Crytpic some considerable time to get the load across the instances worked out.)
Another thing to figure out is how would battles from Sector Space work? I would suggest that they should work similarly to DSEs but with real players. At first they'd begin as a 1 on 1 battle, (ship meets ship in Sector Space, and is brought into a DSE-like instance), and then turn into a many vs many battle. After 2 ships enter a "PVP encounter", their avatars would disappear in sector space, and that battle "cloud" graphic indicating an active battle is happening would appear. Many people would enter that battle instance until the player cap was reached (or the battle ended), and then the graphic would disappear from Sector Space just like DSEs.
To make it a little more challenging some Patrol NPCs should be added to sector space to make it more difficult to enter enemy territory, and NPC guards should be added to star bases and planets. The number could be dynamic based upon the player population at the time. (If the game population was low, more NPCs would be needed so that the people that were on and playing would have something to play against.)
I REALLY wish they'd implement this. It'd give the game more life.
A toggle that allows one to set for agressive or passive in the NZ would go along way to limit griefing in my opinion. Passive marked players are untouchable in the NZ, while agressive choose the consequences of thier actions.
I'm still amazed though at the "sky is falling" attitude that a coupled of bugged Klinks caused at ESD.
Agreed. I have to think that people opposed to a Flagged PvP system must not have a clear understanding of what it means or have never experienced it.
Of course, in order for a flag PvP system to work, there has to be proper coding for it. Not being able to kill NPC of any kind, factional safe spots/zones and an "OPTION" to participate in PvP.
It's that simple. If you don't chose to participate, a flagged player shouldn't have any adverse affects to someones PvE play.
Concerning "Attacks against the ESD" pvp scenario put forth, I liked one players input that there could be more than one instance to prevent this from interfering with PvE'ers. One for standard play and one for open-pvp. Is this a feasible idea?
I'm not a PVP'er mainly because I don't like the queue system. (It feels like I'm playing a Half Life deathmatch or something). It takes my mind out of the STO world and reminds me that I'm playing a game. What I would like to see is an opening of the faction territories..
I am sympathetic with the sentiment expressed here.
I believe pvp zones need to implement faction only chat so the other team does not hear you at all. Or perhaps the pvp community needs a wake-up call by having flamers lose their chat privileges altogether or even have them suspended from the game. QUOTE]
I agree, certainly with the removal of "Zone" and "tells" priviledges and faction chat.
1) PvP has to remain consensual. It's pretty much a given STO won't be turning into Lineage II, Darkfall or Eve Online.
I don't see why this isn't possible.
]2) Balance would be completely thrown out the window. Not only are situations where you'd have 5-on-1, 10-on-1, or even 20-on-1 quite possible, but we'd also have the issue of level cap'd players rattling sabers with characters still fresh from the tutorial
If I don't toggle "YES" on my acceptance when passing through the NZ's to say I'm active in PvP, how can they target me? I can fly on through unfazed. Thats the principle I had in mind.
3) Small fish; BIG pond. This would fracture the PvP enthusiast segment of the player base and spread them even further apart. Think waiting for queues is bad? Now imagine searching the whole galaxy (including every possible instance) to find opponents.
I was not expecting a galaxy wide open-PvP, I wish for Nuetral Zones and other sector blocks of conflict for open pvp. Its not like SB's are so large as too easily hide in them.
It isn't that easy.
Would you enjoy PVP in WOW if, at will, anyone could simply "poof" out and vanish. Tucked away in some secret invisible box or move to a different server?
Under a "flagged" system you have to make the choice before entering or shortly after entering as to wiether or not you are going to participate in open-pvp. You can not decide to be a "non-participant" in the middle of comabt or vice-versa. This way you could still have PvE only missions inside th SB's, but live PvP as well. They only issue that springs to mind would be PvE'ers griefing combats with fly-throughs.
But it gets worse from there. No other open PVP world has a system like sector space, and sector space makes most of this more difficult then it needs to be.
Lets talk movement. Name me an open PVP world that forces folks to move between combats at a speed controlled by level and with all of your abilities and powers locked out and unavailable. Speed in sector space is fixed by level, no amount of skills, equipment, or powers will change that.
See the "flagged" idea I posted above first but why do you think they would have powers locked out just because it a Sector Block? Sure some players will move faster than others if the sector block is left wide open to all levels but I hope they can level-gate such Open-pvp SB's.
Though honestly I like open due to the fact that a whole bunch of small guys can gang up on a biggie, but thats just me.
All of this would have to be tuned, managed, tested, checked for possible ways to game or exploit the system.
.[/QUOTE
]
It would certainly be important to test it well, which may be why it hasn't happened yet.
I believe pvp zones need to implement faction only chat so the other team does not hear you at all. Or perhaps the pvp community needs a wake-up call by having flamers lose their chat privileges altogether or even have them suspended from the game.
I agree, certainly with the removal of "Zone" and "tells" priviledges and faction chat.
I don't see why this isn't possible.
If I don't toggle "YES" on my acceptance when passing through the NZ's to say I'm active in PvP, how can they target me? I can fly on through unfazed. Thats the principle I had in mind.
I was not expecting a galaxy wide open-PvP, I wish for Nuetral Zones and other sector blocks of conflict for open pvp. Its not like SB's are so large as too easily hide in them.
Under a "flagged" system you have to make the choice before entering or shortly after entering as to wiether or not you are going to participate in open-pvp. You can not decide to be a "non-participant" in the middle of comabt or vice-versa. This way you could still have PvE only missions inside th SB's, but live PvP as well. They only issue that springs to mind would be PvE'ers griefing combats with fly-throughs.
And as I also mentioned how do you solve the problem of instancing? You can change instances at any point and at any time in sector space. Making it function no differently then going to the bridge. And its not something that can easily be disabled without making fleet or coordination problematic. Think about it, disable the ability to instance you open all kinds of madness. You and your fleet rushes off to join a fight in the next sector...but whoops, half showed up in another instance due to the first one being near full. I cant possibly see how that might be frustrating.
But it gets worse from there. No other open PVP world has a system like sector space, and sector space makes most of this more difficult then it needs to be.
See the "flagged" idea I posted above first but why do you think they would have powers locked out just because it a Sector Block? Sure some players will move faster than others if the sector block is left wide open to all levels but I hope they can level-gate such Open-pvp SB's.
Though honestly I like open due to the fact that a whole bunch of small guys can gang up on a biggie, but thats just me.
You misread me. I'm not saying that powers should be locked out. I was pointing out that they are already. Can you use evasive maneuvers in sector space? Can you pop an emergency battery? Can you even see your full power and shield levels? You cant do any of that at all. Sector space reduces every distinct thing about your character, build, and skills to hollow shell with a base speed derived by nothing more then rank. And you some how feel that this restricted template is a preferred way to initiate combat? with your hands tied behind your back? Have you actually tried to intercept anyone in sector space? Its not even close to the same as simply running up to someone and fighting like you can in any other open PVP setting.
It would certainly be important to test it well, which may be why it hasn't happened yet.
Its more then just testing. It would take major changes. Sector space, as it stands is an obstacle to PVP. Its not suited for it. The excitement of seeing an enemy, running up to him and attacking just isn't here. What we have is so much more complicated then that. Sure, you see him on sector space and move to intercept. And do you get a fight? no, you get a loading screen. And then you can fight. But what then? You and him are now off in a private instance. Can your friends join in? can his? can you leave the fight? or is that locked out to prevent running? How about instance limits? And a dozen other questions that all have to be worked out and answered.
And depending on how these questions get resolved. You might have something similar to a simple system where you can run up and start fighting. But it will never be as simple or easy as that, short of revamping sector space entirely or having a special PVP zone that operates differently then sector space.
I believe pvp zones need to implement faction only chat so the other team does not hear you at all. Or perhaps the pvp community needs a wake-up call by having flamers lose their chat privileges altogether or even have them suspended from the game. QUOTE]
I agree, certainly with the removal of "Zone" and "tells" priviledges and faction chat.
If I don't toggle "YES" on my acceptance when passing through the NZ's to say I'm active in PvP, how can they target me? I can fly on through unfazed. Thats the principle I had in mind.
I was not expecting a galaxy wide open-PvP, I wish for Nuetral Zones and other sector blocks of conflict for open pvp. Its not like SB's are so large as too easily hide in them.
Under a "flagged" system you have to make the choice before entering or shortly after entering as to wiether or not you are going to participate in open-pvp. You can not decide to be a "non-participant" in the middle of comabt or vice-versa. This way you could still have PvE only missions inside th SB's, but live PvP as well. They only issue that springs to mind would be PvE'ers griefing combats with fly-throughs.
But it gets worse from there. No other open PVP world has a system like sector space, and sector space makes most of this more difficult then it needs to be.
See the "flagged" idea I posted above first but why do you think they would have powers locked out just because it a Sector Block? Sure some players will move faster than others if the sector block is left wide open to all levels but I hope they can level-gate such Open-pvp SB's.
Though honestly I like open due to the fact that a whole bunch of small guys can gang up on a biggie, but thats just me.
]
It would certainly be important to test it well, which may be why it hasn't happened yet.
Obviously you skipped alot of what i said earlier.....
If you dont want to do what I had listed then so be it, thats your own decision. But its effective in eliminating peoples "flames" or what have you that you believe happens on a frequent basis in your pvp. Alot of us??? Whos us? I wasnt aware you can speak for other people. When Iam on my fed, i see HUGE numbers waiting for pvp, theres just not enouph klingons hitting up the ques. Do I know the reason why that is.. no, no one really knows. Could be the lack of a klingon population, and most that consume the KDF are mostly fed players rolling klingon toons and doing the exploration missions and or the new pve content missions. Who really knows. When have i stated that people should be insulted in pvp :rolleyes:
I have said the entire opposite of that. I dont support it but it happens here and there. Maybe people instead of taking off their profanity filters but them back on. You cant fixed what people say. Theyll say what ever they wish to in pvp or pve, thats a fact. Could the devs do something to counter the problem. Most likely maybe filtering the words pwned, noob, ect. If it really hurts you and others feelings iam sorry to hear that.
Also another "possible" reason to why pvp isnt that active because its really stale atm. There hasnt been any solid pvp content in sometime... again people may just be bored of it... has that ever crossed your mind?? And ill remain on what I said, people.. have to learn its just words, cant handle words and you get upset about it.. your allowing that person to get under your skin and again.. they win. And if that was happening to you during high school then Iam sorry to hear that.. some people can be cruel.
Like I said earlier, I have laffed on many occasions when someone like that sends a global message, so does most of the rest who were pvp'ing in that round(s). I actually see people going to bat for whom ever was being called out as the newb or the "pwned" individual in the match(s). Again, this community is far better then some other gaming communities.
What I objected to was your contention that people "have" to ignore the insults and such and they have to shrug off getting killed and such. I've heard this from pvp'ers for years. It's not helpful because it doesn't try to fix anything. It just asks people who already opt out of pvp because of jerks to accept the jerks and play anyway. I offered a solution that would probably increase the number of people in the queues, I don't see how your idea does that. That said, this isn't about you, and I made it about you, and I'm sorry about that. I was too tired last night to fix it after I thought of it, and since you replied it wouldn't be right to edit it out now.
I don't agree that there are "huge" numbers of people in the queues. If there were FvF queues would move swiftly and I've had to wait for those a long time too. There is an imbalance of Klingons probably connected to the lack of content for them, but there is also the perception that the Klingons are all about pvp and not that many people participate compared to the pve players.
I'm not a frail flower. I'm a veteran and worked in some rough environments and with some rough people. I could, if I really wanted to, just put people on ignore or shut off chat or whatnot. I don't want to pvp with the people I've met in kerrat and such enough to bother in my case. Maybe if pvp were more like I would like to see it, as a sport with understood levels of civility and sportsmanship I would be more eager to do it.
The community here is far better than UO's was, which was a griefer's paradise for about 2 years. But 5 years of exposure to those jerks has hardened me against the trash talking pvp players I've met in the dozen years since. My feeling has become life is too short to endure jerkitude while trying to play a game. I have to live with enough of them in real life as it is; I wont add more of it to my entertainment. You'd be mistaken if you think I only speak for myself. I know lots of people who feel the way I do; I've been in guilds full of them for years.
The operative point here is this is a game. We all do it to have fun. We shouldn't have to jump through hoops to avoid being insulted or accept that as part of the game. I can play pve and never hear an insult. I don't ever hear the trash talk from other team members in pve either. It seems to be a leftover vestige of the pk phenomenon from the early games; that trash talk, insults and chest thumping is an accepted part of the game and the pvp community accepted that, and nothing ever changed. DAoC had a system where you couldn't hear the enemy chat and I did participate in their pvp. It wasn't perfect because the jerks would dance on your corpse or use emotes to replace the speech, but it was an acceptable compromise. I think it would be easier to change the chat than to change the behavior. But the behavior should be changed. I believe pvp would become more like a sport if there were sportsmanship, and it takes someone with some power to make that happen. A few suspensions would go a long way to cleaning up pvp.
And as I also mentioned how do you solve the problem of instancing?
Changes would need to be made to the system of course.
You misread me. I'm not saying that powers should be locked out. I was pointing out that they are already.
Things would have to be changed in the mechanics of course.
Its more then just testing. It would take major changes. Sector space, as it stands is an obstacle to PVP. Its not suited for it.
Changes would have to be made of course to accomidate pvp.
a special PVP zone that operates differently then sector space.
Finally you understand. I am not asking that all sector space be turned open-pvp. I am asking that special sector blocks get made or converted to "yes/no" choice open-pvp, becuase changes will of course have to be made to accamidate open-pvp.
It just screams "Look! I am a tough guy on the Internet! I could totally beat you up, if I knew where you lived, and Mom let me borrow the car for the weekend."
I am not an avid PvPer (I only PvP occationally with fleet mates) but, I do believe that at least Eta Eridani and Pi Canis should be open PvP. It just makes sense. For asses kicks, move Star Base 24 into Pi Canis for a little station action.
Move the PvE missions of that area if you're going to do that.
Finally you understand. I am not asking that all sector space be turned open-pvp. I am asking that special sector blocks get made or converted to "yes/no" choice open-pvp, becuase changes will of course have to be made to accamidate open-pvp.
This is what I've been advocating from the start. My arguments where directed at the folks who felt open PVP in all sectors would be a simple and easy fix. By highlighting examples of its problems. It seemed a better tactic then screaming NO OPEN PVP EVAR!! Sorry if you felt they were directed at you specifically
I have no issues with open PVP in an area created for it. I just feel it will require far to much rebuilding and reworking sector space to ever make the existing zones viable for open PVP. The problem is a lot of folks just haven't accepted that reality yet.
Move the PvE missions of that area if you're going to do that.
Well if they make open PvP a flagged encounter then PvE in the zone shouldn't be affected. I think the flags should be the key to keeping griefing from happening.
I'm not a PVP'er mainly because I don't like the queue system. (It feels like I'm playing a Half Life deathmatch or something). It takes my mind out of the STO world and reminds me that I'm playing a game. What I would like to see is an opening of the faction territories.
Right now Feds can't enter Klingon space, and vice versa. As a Fed I'd love to fly into KDF territory, try to avoid being caught by any KDF players, and make it to Qo'Nos. If I die trying it, that's my own dang fault. I'd also love to see cloaked KDF ships make it to ESD and beam themselves aboard.
The problem with this is that people who don't want anything to do with PvP wouldn't want Klingons coming in and attacking them, or Klingons coming in and killing the NPCs they need to chat with. Like it was mentioned earlier in this thread a PVP flag on the player's character would be a good solution. If you've activated the PVP flag, you'll only be loaded into PVP assigned instances. If you don't have it active, you'd only be loaded into PvE instances. (Granted, it'd take Crytpic some considerable time to get the load across the instances worked out.)
Another thing to figure out is how would battles from Sector Space work? I would suggest that they should work similarly to DSEs but with real players. At first they'd begin as a 1 on 1 battle, (ship meets ship in Sector Space, and is brought into a DSE-like instance), and then turn into a many vs many battle. After 2 ships enter a "PVP encounter", their avatars would disappear in sector space, and that battle "cloud" graphic indicating an active battle is happening would appear. Many people would enter that battle instance until the player cap was reached (or the battle ended), and then the graphic would disappear from Sector Space just like DSEs.
To make it a little more challenging some Patrol NPCs should be added to sector space to make it more difficult to enter enemy territory, and NPC guards should be added to star bases and planets. The number could be dynamic based upon the player population at the time. (If the game population was low, more NPCs would be needed so that the people that were on and playing would have something to play against.)
I REALLY wish they'd implement this. It'd give the game more life.
I'm not a PVP'er mainly because I don't like the queue system. (It feels like I'm playing a Half Life deathmatch or something). It takes my mind out of the STO world and reminds me that I'm playing a game. What I would like to see is an opening of the faction territories.
I am sympathetic with this position.
Right now Feds can't enter Klingon space, and vice versa. As a Fed I'd love to fly into KDF territory, try to avoid being caught by any KDF players, and make it to Qo'Nos. If I die trying it, that's my own dang fault.
This, I don't think requires a separate PvP Sector instance, as a new PvP DSE Instance would be created anyway. If, you are in your own territory, you engage in PvP by choice, either attack or ignore. If, you are in enemy territory your choice is limited to those that have either flagged themselves or have become flagged by having recently participated in Sector PvP.
In both cases I'd like to see those being disabled to immediately respawn in their Home System. This provides a definitive victory condition and directly addresses much of what is considered griefing.
I'd also love to see cloaked KDF ships make it to ESD and beam themselves aboard.
This is where a separate instance is necessary to satisfy the aesthetic concerns of those who prefer a strictly PvE environment.
To make it a little more challenging some Patrol NPCs should be added to sector space to make it more difficult to enter enemy territory, and NPC guards should be added to star bases and planets. The number could be dynamic based upon the player population at the time. (If the game population was low, more NPCs would be needed so that the people that were on and playing would have something to play against.)
I like this also, so long as it doesn't prevent other Players from joining an existing Player-v-Patrol instance.
Open PvP in STO? No thanks, it simply is not made for that. It would be like putting a tonka truck on a freeway and calling it safe.
Open PvP would cause way more issues and bugs for the game than content and creating new "PvP Shards" wouldn't change that.
What would be cool is the creation of a sector of space as a "war zone." One that could have buildable defense points, stations and contain several long term objectives to be completed.
When a faction wins? they get perks, maybe relations with a neutral faction which would contain new content...access to a loot vendor etc etc to encourage people to participate if they choose. The winning faction would have access to these things while the war zone resets and is fought over again....
This is just an example, one meant to show that having a persistent PvP sector with actual GOALS and OBJECTIVES would be a really cool addition to this game.
I'm all for an open PvP zones. That is why I "patrol" the "Borg hunt" and hope there is a Klingon there that wants to fight. I really hate waiting in queues. So far been lucky to find some action.
So yeah I would really like a few areas set aside for open PvP.
This, I don't think requires a separate PvP Sector instance, as a new PvP DSE Instance would be created anyway. If, you are in your own territory, you engage in PvP by choice, either attack or ignore. If, you are in enemy territory your choice is limited to those that have either flagged themselves or have become flagged by having recently participated in Sector PvP.
In both cases I'd like to see those being disabled to immediately respawn in their Home System. This provides a definitive victory condition and directly addresses much of what is considered griefing.
This is where a separate instance is necessary to satisfy the aesthetic concerns of those who prefer a strictly PvE environment.
I like this also, so long as it doesn't prevent other Players from joining an existing Player-v-Patrol instance.
I'm looking forward to some Open PvP.
You could also add more raid missions for Klingon faction in other zones. Since Feds don't have cloaks like Klingons they could easily be spotted heading toward Qo'nos. That is if they enable cloaks in sector space. Otherwise both factions could be tracked invading but I'd rather they offer the cloak in sector space.
Cryptic could make a flagging system to seperate the PvEers from the PvPers. That way there an be raids on eachother.
As for Free Open Territorial PvP, I would love for Klingons to attack Sol and Federation able to attack Qo'nos with certain goals for victory. But the closer you get to the homeworlds, the harder it should be. And Starbases on both sides should have powerful defenses where a single ship can't make a dent, but some serious damage can take place in a 100 ship raid.
If players die in opposite territory, they respawn at the homeworlds, as to prevent anykind of PvP bind rush / zerging.
The thing I always try to remind people about is this:
Instances have caps of around 25 players.
So if you want open PvP on Qo'noS or ESD, you're either going to get luck of the draw or people instance hopping till they get favorable odds (ie. you wind up with an instance of Qo'noS with 23 Feds and 1 Klingon and that 1 Klingon is incapable of getting more than 1 reinforcement) or the PvP instances will be setup as 12 v 12 max, in which case the PvP ESD or Qo'noS is going to be a lot more sparsely populated when no PvP action is going on.
Comments
- Zone chat in that instance is Faction Only (eliminate the much-dreaded smack-talk).
- Make it territory claim/hold where you have to 1) claim a base orbiting a planet (space combat), then 2) claim the planet (ground combat). Once you have both the base AND the ground objective, that system is secured.
- Give everyone who happens to be in the Capital of which ever faction has the majority of these systems some "Awesome Buff of Awesome", and everyone who took part in the action some tokens that can be collected for "Awesome Gear of Awesome". This way, even those who don't participate in PvP will at least somewhat care about what's going on in the war zone, and those who participated get something unique that makes them stand out as seasoned war vets. Maybe even costume pieces that display their "PvP Rank" (making up a word there).
- When a system is under attack, people in the faction defending it get a message in their chat window announcing that such-and-such system is under attack, so people who care can go defend it.
- Sector Space in this PvP zone is free-for-all. If you see someone of an opposing faction flying through, you're free to engage them (pulls them into a DSE-style battle).
- Lower-levels can group up and attack higher-levels, but higher-levels CAN NOT initiate combat with lower-levels (minimizes griefing/ganking).
- Most importantly, this Sector Block has absolutely ZERO PvE content in it. You're only going in if you're a PvP'er, and when your Boff pops up to tell you that you're zoning in, you have to confirm that you understand it's a warzone.
This gives people a reason to fight, rewards for winning, a sense of achievement, and lets "those who despise PvP and all it stands for" no incentive to go in.
There... Discuss.
Yes yes please.
Agreed, but I dislike any system that gives rewards to those whom do not participate.
Yes, very much yes. It would be awesome to recieved such a message during play.
I still advocate the "flagged" system. Flagged if you are participating in PvP (free to attack) or unflagged if you are not participating (can not attack or be attacked). The problem lies in how to keep players from toggling back and forth and using the the "unflagged" status as a defense against reprisals. Further more "unflagged" players will of course recieve no reward for being inzone during a victory
Unfortunately this will only lead (imo) to reverse level ganking and griefing, which is why I advocate the "flag" system.
Agreed!! Though I would love a PvP scenario missions attached to the planetary systems in said sector that pull one into a mission where smaller groups can battle for control of said planetary control.
Agreed, though those whom hate will not relent.
Lord knows that true, its why I haven't been too hyper to pvp lately. PvP has gotten stale due to its unchanging settings and the ad nauseum "KDF is OP" whines having ruined the fun for some. Whats the point of playing if win or lose you are still called a cheat,haxor, OP, etc, regardless of evidence to the contrary?
As an example: there are 16 klingons and 48 federation players and they enter this open-pvp thingy.
How do the 16 have any chance of winning? and does your solution involve the 48 players sitting around endlessly waiting for something to happen?
(unless things have changed massively, those numbers are highly optimistic)
If success in the PvP Warzone I suggested above helps everyone within your faction, then there's more of a feeling of pride in it.
Happened all the time in another MMO I played where they separated PvE from PvP completely. Once you start getting those messages saying that your territory is falling, you feel more compelled to help.
(I'm purposely not naming the game because some people say I talk about it too much).
My only issue is that I want PvP to be totally separate when I'm running PvE missions. I don't want to see any kind of buffs from PvP if I'm not participating. I don't want PvP warnings flashing across my screen unless I'm in the open PvP zone. I don't want to have to go to the open PvP zone to do a PvE mission. I don't want to drop by ESD to find that all the mission givers/vendors are dead, and I don't want to see PvP battles taking place.
Some people like PvP and some people don't. Constant remiders that there is PvP in a game isn't going to convince the non-PvPers to participate.
1) Engagement size limits - no more then 10 players per faction in a "combat arena". This would indeed leave a few of the players waiting.
2) PvE ships supporting the weaker side.
3) Different rules that compensate for team sizes - respawn times faster for smaller side, more generous goals for weaker side.
An Open PvP scenario might end up balancing the populations in the long run, since there is more incentive to check out the other faction if you're interested in Open PvP.
Thread title: "We wanted PvP *NOT* PvE [page 1 of 456]". It is very hard to sell this, and pretty hard work out a non-exploitable ruleset - besides which NPCs in this game are incredibly stupid.
It is incredibly hard to see how that would work - first contact is 16 vs 8, the 8 get wiped out, the 16 all live. It is hard to make a ruleset where the 8 don't automatically lose, that is acceptable to the players.
That is possible, but I don't think you can build an open-pvp system based on the premise that pvp populations will balance themselves 'somehow'. WHO seems a pretty good example of believing that things will fix themselves - by the time that happens your game is deserted.
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My own view is that PvP has to be population limited, not much different to the current PvP... I suspect a lot of players are expecting something entirely different.
I would give us a different variant to the defend the sector in this way but I like that idea!
Right now Feds can't enter Klingon space, and vice versa. As a Fed I'd love to fly into KDF territory, try to avoid being caught by any KDF players, and make it to Qo'Nos. If I die trying it, that's my own dang fault. I'd also love to see cloaked KDF ships make it to ESD and beam themselves aboard.
The problem with this is that people who don't want anything to do with PvP wouldn't want Klingons coming in and attacking them, or Klingons coming in and killing the NPCs they need to chat with. Like it was mentioned earlier in this thread a PVP flag on the player's character would be a good solution. If you've activated the PVP flag, you'll only be loaded into PVP assigned instances. If you don't have it active, you'd only be loaded into PvE instances. (Granted, it'd take Crytpic some considerable time to get the load across the instances worked out.)
Another thing to figure out is how would battles from Sector Space work? I would suggest that they should work similarly to DSEs but with real players. At first they'd begin as a 1 on 1 battle, (ship meets ship in Sector Space, and is brought into a DSE-like instance), and then turn into a many vs many battle. After 2 ships enter a "PVP encounter", their avatars would disappear in sector space, and that battle "cloud" graphic indicating an active battle is happening would appear. Many people would enter that battle instance until the player cap was reached (or the battle ended), and then the graphic would disappear from Sector Space just like DSEs.
To make it a little more challenging some Patrol NPCs should be added to sector space to make it more difficult to enter enemy territory, and NPC guards should be added to star bases and planets. The number could be dynamic based upon the player population at the time. (If the game population was low, more NPCs would be needed so that the people that were on and playing would have something to play against.)
I REALLY wish they'd implement this. It'd give the game more life.
Agreed. I have to think that people opposed to a Flagged PvP system must not have a clear understanding of what it means or have never experienced it.
Of course, in order for a flag PvP system to work, there has to be proper coding for it. Not being able to kill NPC of any kind, factional safe spots/zones and an "OPTION" to participate in PvP.
It's that simple. If you don't chose to participate, a flagged player shouldn't have any adverse affects to someones PvE play.
And as I also mentioned how do you solve the problem of instancing? You can change instances at any point and at any time in sector space. Making it function no differently then going to the bridge. And its not something that can easily be disabled without making fleet or coordination problematic. Think about it, disable the ability to instance you open all kinds of madness. You and your fleet rushes off to join a fight in the next sector...but whoops, half showed up in another instance due to the first one being near full. I cant possibly see how that might be frustrating.
You misread me. I'm not saying that powers should be locked out. I was pointing out that they are already. Can you use evasive maneuvers in sector space? Can you pop an emergency battery? Can you even see your full power and shield levels? You cant do any of that at all. Sector space reduces every distinct thing about your character, build, and skills to hollow shell with a base speed derived by nothing more then rank. And you some how feel that this restricted template is a preferred way to initiate combat? with your hands tied behind your back? Have you actually tried to intercept anyone in sector space? Its not even close to the same as simply running up to someone and fighting like you can in any other open PVP setting.
Its more then just testing. It would take major changes. Sector space, as it stands is an obstacle to PVP. Its not suited for it. The excitement of seeing an enemy, running up to him and attacking just isn't here. What we have is so much more complicated then that. Sure, you see him on sector space and move to intercept. And do you get a fight? no, you get a loading screen. And then you can fight. But what then? You and him are now off in a private instance. Can your friends join in? can his? can you leave the fight? or is that locked out to prevent running? How about instance limits? And a dozen other questions that all have to be worked out and answered.
And depending on how these questions get resolved. You might have something similar to a simple system where you can run up and start fighting. But it will never be as simple or easy as that, short of revamping sector space entirely or having a special PVP zone that operates differently then sector space.
What I objected to was your contention that people "have" to ignore the insults and such and they have to shrug off getting killed and such. I've heard this from pvp'ers for years. It's not helpful because it doesn't try to fix anything. It just asks people who already opt out of pvp because of jerks to accept the jerks and play anyway. I offered a solution that would probably increase the number of people in the queues, I don't see how your idea does that. That said, this isn't about you, and I made it about you, and I'm sorry about that. I was too tired last night to fix it after I thought of it, and since you replied it wouldn't be right to edit it out now.
I don't agree that there are "huge" numbers of people in the queues. If there were FvF queues would move swiftly and I've had to wait for those a long time too. There is an imbalance of Klingons probably connected to the lack of content for them, but there is also the perception that the Klingons are all about pvp and not that many people participate compared to the pve players.
I'm not a frail flower. I'm a veteran and worked in some rough environments and with some rough people. I could, if I really wanted to, just put people on ignore or shut off chat or whatnot. I don't want to pvp with the people I've met in kerrat and such enough to bother in my case. Maybe if pvp were more like I would like to see it, as a sport with understood levels of civility and sportsmanship I would be more eager to do it.
The community here is far better than UO's was, which was a griefer's paradise for about 2 years. But 5 years of exposure to those jerks has hardened me against the trash talking pvp players I've met in the dozen years since. My feeling has become life is too short to endure jerkitude while trying to play a game. I have to live with enough of them in real life as it is; I wont add more of it to my entertainment. You'd be mistaken if you think I only speak for myself. I know lots of people who feel the way I do; I've been in guilds full of them for years.
The operative point here is this is a game. We all do it to have fun. We shouldn't have to jump through hoops to avoid being insulted or accept that as part of the game. I can play pve and never hear an insult. I don't ever hear the trash talk from other team members in pve either. It seems to be a leftover vestige of the pk phenomenon from the early games; that trash talk, insults and chest thumping is an accepted part of the game and the pvp community accepted that, and nothing ever changed. DAoC had a system where you couldn't hear the enemy chat and I did participate in their pvp. It wasn't perfect because the jerks would dance on your corpse or use emotes to replace the speech, but it was an acceptable compromise. I think it would be easier to change the chat than to change the behavior. But the behavior should be changed. I believe pvp would become more like a sport if there were sportsmanship, and it takes someone with some power to make that happen. A few suspensions would go a long way to cleaning up pvp.
This is so cute. I chuckle every time I see it.
It just screams "Look! I am a tough guy on the Internet! I could totally beat you up, if I knew where you lived, and Mom let me borrow the car for the weekend."
Move the PvE missions of that area if you're going to do that.
This is what I've been advocating from the start. My arguments where directed at the folks who felt open PVP in all sectors would be a simple and easy fix. By highlighting examples of its problems. It seemed a better tactic then screaming NO OPEN PVP EVAR!! Sorry if you felt they were directed at you specifically
I have no issues with open PVP in an area created for it. I just feel it will require far to much rebuilding and reworking sector space to ever make the existing zones viable for open PVP. The problem is a lot of folks just haven't accepted that reality yet.
Well if they make open PvP a flagged encounter then PvE in the zone shouldn't be affected. I think the flags should be the key to keeping griefing from happening.
Right now Feds can't enter Klingon space, and vice versa. As a Fed I'd love to fly into KDF territory, try to avoid being caught by any KDF players, and make it to Qo'Nos. If I die trying it, that's my own dang fault. I'd also love to see cloaked KDF ships make it to ESD and beam themselves aboard.
The problem with this is that people who don't want anything to do with PvP wouldn't want Klingons coming in and attacking them, or Klingons coming in and killing the NPCs they need to chat with. Like it was mentioned earlier in this thread a PVP flag on the player's character would be a good solution. If you've activated the PVP flag, you'll only be loaded into PVP assigned instances. If you don't have it active, you'd only be loaded into PvE instances. (Granted, it'd take Crytpic some considerable time to get the load across the instances worked out.)
Another thing to figure out is how would battles from Sector Space work? I would suggest that they should work similarly to DSEs but with real players. At first they'd begin as a 1 on 1 battle, (ship meets ship in Sector Space, and is brought into a DSE-like instance), and then turn into a many vs many battle. After 2 ships enter a "PVP encounter", their avatars would disappear in sector space, and that battle "cloud" graphic indicating an active battle is happening would appear. Many people would enter that battle instance until the player cap was reached (or the battle ended), and then the graphic would disappear from Sector Space just like DSEs.
To make it a little more challenging some Patrol NPCs should be added to sector space to make it more difficult to enter enemy territory, and NPC guards should be added to star bases and planets. The number could be dynamic based upon the player population at the time. (If the game population was low, more NPCs would be needed so that the people that were on and playing would have something to play against.)
I REALLY wish they'd implement this. It'd give the game more life.
This, I don't think requires a separate PvP Sector instance, as a new PvP DSE Instance would be created anyway. If, you are in your own territory, you engage in PvP by choice, either attack or ignore. If, you are in enemy territory your choice is limited to those that have either flagged themselves or have become flagged by having recently participated in Sector PvP.
In both cases I'd like to see those being disabled to immediately respawn in their Home System. This provides a definitive victory condition and directly addresses much of what is considered griefing.
This is where a separate instance is necessary to satisfy the aesthetic concerns of those who prefer a strictly PvE environment.
I like this also, so long as it doesn't prevent other Players from joining an existing Player-v-Patrol instance.
I'm looking forward to some Open PvP.
Open PvP would cause way more issues and bugs for the game than content and creating new "PvP Shards" wouldn't change that.
What would be cool is the creation of a sector of space as a "war zone." One that could have buildable defense points, stations and contain several long term objectives to be completed.
When a faction wins? they get perks, maybe relations with a neutral faction which would contain new content...access to a loot vendor etc etc to encourage people to participate if they choose. The winning faction would have access to these things while the war zone resets and is fought over again....
This is just an example, one meant to show that having a persistent PvP sector with actual GOALS and OBJECTIVES would be a really cool addition to this game.
That is something I support.
So yeah I would really like a few areas set aside for open PvP.
You could also add more raid missions for Klingon faction in other zones. Since Feds don't have cloaks like Klingons they could easily be spotted heading toward Qo'nos. That is if they enable cloaks in sector space. Otherwise both factions could be tracked invading but I'd rather they offer the cloak in sector space.
As for Free Open Territorial PvP, I would love for Klingons to attack Sol and Federation able to attack Qo'nos with certain goals for victory. But the closer you get to the homeworlds, the harder it should be. And Starbases on both sides should have powerful defenses where a single ship can't make a dent, but some serious damage can take place in a 100 ship raid.
If players die in opposite territory, they respawn at the homeworlds, as to prevent anykind of PvP bind rush / zerging.
Instances have caps of around 25 players.
So if you want open PvP on Qo'noS or ESD, you're either going to get luck of the draw or people instance hopping till they get favorable odds (ie. you wind up with an instance of Qo'noS with 23 Feds and 1 Klingon and that 1 Klingon is incapable of getting more than 1 reinforcement) or the PvP instances will be setup as 12 v 12 max, in which case the PvP ESD or Qo'noS is going to be a lot more sparsely populated when no PvP action is going on.