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"Greeting, Rear Admiral, Lower Half Janeway!" YUCK!

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    More appropriately, all prefixes and suffixes to ranks should be dropped during conversations with NPCs. Specifically, the "Lieutenant" in Lieutenant Commander and the "Rear" "Vice" "Lower Half" and "Upper Half" in the Admiral ranks.

    Even better, just give us bloody control. We can select to drop or add suffixes, we can select whether we are Captain, Admiral, or even Ensign. I know people who want to roleplay being the ship's Junior Science Officer or CMO. Let them have control to always be addressed as "Doctor" or "Captain".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Having not read every post in this thread, I will assume this has not been touched on, so if it has I apologize in advance for repeating information. If not then maybe this will help at least understand why that happens. From my experience in working in the foundry, there is a wildcard you can use in order to reference a players ship or rank or name in a text popup. This will read your full and proper rank into the field when the text is displayed. Presently the code string doesn't support a truncation so that Rear Admiral, Lower Half would be displayed as Rear Admiral or even just Admiral. It would be nice if it was smart enough to do that, but there are far more important things to be working on then just twiddle the way a rank displays. Thankfully as a general naval rule, the commander of a vessel is addressed as captain, so you can 'cheat' when writing and refer to a player by just this honorific.

    One thing I wonder for later is that based off a thread about Commodore being reserved for use in regards to Fleet Starbases and stuff, will there be a switch to allow for which rank you will be addressed by?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    First off -- it's been stated many a times replacing all the places you're called by your title is not a simple find and replace option in notepad :p It'd take a long while to get it done.

    Secondly -- Commodore was being looked into for the TOS Pack, but I REALLY couldn't see it ever been added into the game in general since the Commodore rank was removed from active use and removed from ST in general. (Unless a dev responded to this while I was sick and didn't notice it)

    TOS was out before the changes to the Commodore rank.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    My question though is more in regards to, will we then in a fleet instance have an official game 'rank' (ie level) and a fleet rank(level?). Will these be interchangeable as forms of address?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Askray wrote: »
    First off -- it's been stated many a times replacing all the places you're called by your title is not a simple find and replace option in notepad :p It'd take a long while to get it done.

    I am so SICK of this excuse.

    Awwww....IT'S HARD.

    Get it done.

    You're telling me that with all the advanced technology Cryptic can't handle something that basically requires a SEARCH and REPLACE function? :mad:

    What's the old tag? Search for it, replace with the more advanced "fill in your own title" one! Cryptic doesn't have the ability to SEARCH and REPLACE? Seriously? Is this 1989? :mad: Fine. Can't do it? Start fixing it. Get it done gradually.

    MEANWHILE-

    If old missions are hard to fix, then please MAKE ALL NEW MISSIONS USE THE CUSTOM TAG. Please, please, please adopt a new habit of using the tag that let's us choose how we are addressed. :mad:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Galactic_Foodie in response I would say they are getting it done gradually, like you suggested. Based on what I see having to go through each mission chain isn't the same as doing a find/replace on a document, especially if we start considering alone there are over 4000 exploration cluster missions to plow through. I would much rather the time of a dev being spent to go through and do other things then fix a title. Now on the flip side of this.....can we maybe get some unpaid college interns in there to do this kind of scutwork? :) They can even put it on a resume and everything!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    castmodean wrote: »
    Galactic_Foodie in response I would say they are getting it done gradually, like you suggested. Based on what I see having to go through each mission chain isn't the same as doing a find/replace on a document, especially if we start considering alone there are over 4000 exploration cluster missions to plow through. I would much rather the time of a dev being spent to go through and do other things then fix a title. Now on the flip side of this.....can we maybe get some unpaid college interns in there to do this kind of scutwork? :) They can even put it on a resume and everything!

    Can you point to one instance where if I have chosen my character's title to be "Torpedo Target" that it will show up in dialogue? :confused:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    It's probably something they're working on behind the scenes, that would show up in Season 4 changes, or a patch sometime later. They probably want to get it done all at once, so it's a seamless change and not one that takes months of juggling different addresses in dialogue before it gets fixed. They'd get a slew of bug reports if they tried to apply it to the game gradually.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    According to present day (21st Century) military, there are certain circumstances which determine how you "modify" an Admiral's rank.

    For example:

    Informally or "In a crunch" - simply "Admiral" is appropriate

    During semi-formal/ casual encounters with colleagues: "Rear Admiral", "Vice Admiral", or "Admiral"

    During formal hearings or announcements at cermonies: Full rank and grad would be appropriate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    It's probably something they're working on behind the scenes, that would show up in Season 4 changes, or a patch sometime later. They probably want to get it done all at once, so it's a seamless change and not one that takes months of juggling different addresses in dialogue before it gets fixed. They'd get a slew of bug reports if they tried to apply it to the game gradually.

    Yeah, maybe. If so, that'd be fine. But maybe not.

    Hearing confirmation from Cryptic that this is even on their radar would be nice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    "Greetings, Moist Janeway!"

    that made me laugh pretty hard
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I am so SICK of this excuse.

    Awwww....IT'S HARD.

    Get it done.

    You're telling me that with all the advanced technology Cryptic can't handle something that basically requires a SEARCH and REPLACE function? :mad:

    What's the old tag? Search for it, replace with the more advanced "fill in your own title" one! Cryptic doesn't have the ability to SEARCH and REPLACE? Seriously? Is this 1989? :mad: Fine. Can't do it? Start fixing it. Get it done gradually.

    MEANWHILE-

    If old missions are hard to fix, then please MAKE ALL NEW MISSIONS USE THE CUSTOM TAG. Please, please, please adopt a new habit of using the tag that let's us choose how we are addressed. :mad:
    You apparently missed the line I said because even dstahl said it at one point -
    It's not AS easy as search and replace as the title tag is used in MULTIPLE locations required.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Askray wrote: »
    You apparently missed the line I said because even dstahl said it at one point -
    It's not AS easy as search and replace as the title tag is used in MULTIPLE locations required.

    And?

    And thus this is a task too great?

    This is something best left on the back-burner of maybe-someday and never?

    It is used multiple times, in multiple places? Get to it, then! I'm sure you can likely bring on an endless parade of FREE interns who would love to have that they spent 3 months at Cryptic Studios on their resume. Guess what unpaid interns do? TRIBBLE like this.

    Also, why not A) make sure ALL NEW MISSIONS use this feature? And B) Slowly correct old missions, say one at a time while they are being REMASTERED?

    I just hate hearing: We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas. Later, later, later. In the meantime, here's another half a system.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    And?

    And thus this is a task too great?

    This is something best left on the back-burner of maybe-someday and never?

    It is used multiple times, in multiple places? Get to it, then! I'm sure you can likely bring on an endless parade of FREE interns who would love to have that they spent 3 months at Cryptic Studios on their resume. Guess what unpaid interns do? TRIBBLE like this.

    Also, why not A) make sure ALL NEW MISSIONS use this feature? And B) Slowly correct old missions, say one at a time while they are being REMASTERED?

    I just hate hearing: We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas. Later, later, later. In the meantime, here's another half a system.

    and i hate hearing that people not working in the industry or know nothing of the code speak of what they know not.

    they know it is an issue, but forever hashing the debate just brings the dead horse back out from the grave.

    i am sure if it was as easy as you think it is, it would have been done by now. until then, YES, you WILL have to wait.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The longer this goes unfixed, the less likely it is to get fixed. As Cryptic and the Foundry add more content using the current system, it becomes harder and more expensive to fix because the current tags will continue to be used.
    Askray wrote: »
    First off -- it's been stated many a times replacing all the places you're called by your title is not a simple find and replace option in notepad :p It'd take a long while to get it done.

    That's not precisely true. Changing the code (hopefully a single mapping or function) that does the lookup and replace on the tag is even simpler and safer than a global search and replace on the content base. It should literally be a one-line fix (just the replace, not including the new rank functionality itself) assuming good coding practices. But, there is a complication.

    The problem according to a dstahl quote is using the same tag/function for the player's actual rank and minimum rank required on items; i.e., "Hello, [RANKNAME]." and "You must be a [RANKNAME] to use this item." The former could be a user-controlled value like a title, but the latter can't. They both use the same list of values, but they use them in semantically different ways; there should have been two distinct tags for this.

    Now, I don't completely buy this as a show-stopper either. Depending on how the code is structured, they might be able to fork the lookup/replace function in the short term and vastly cut down the impact of the changes. The ugly here is having to evaluate and change function calls and possibly introducing bugs at all those points in code instead of just one in the function itself. It's a stop-gap measure, and eventually the two need to merge back together.

    The most important fix though is that Cryptic needs separate tags for these two cases. (Although I would argue that they should just use level as a number for minimum level text since they already do this in many places like ability descriptions.) They should start using the new tags immediately and update content as they remaster things or as time allows. Using the new tags in the production version of the Foundry is critical since that's going to swell the content base--and potentially the problem--considerably.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    and i hate hearing that people not working in the industry or know nothing of the code speak of what they know not.


    LOL, how do you know who here is or isn't in the industry. Here's a question: If someone who doesn't have a degree in economics has an economic solution, should we dismiss the solution solely based upon the fact that they have no degree in economics?

    If I were in the industry and said the exact same thing, would I suddenly have credibility? Illogical, Captain.
    they know it is an issue, but forever hashing the debate just brings the dead horse back out from the grave.

    They know it is an issue, but I've seen no firm comment from them about how much of a PRIORITY it is, or whether they are even working on it at all. The question was whether the new episodes finally let us be addressed by our chosen title. The answer, is NO. :mad:

    So aren't they just creating extra work for themselves by making new episodes that still don't have the update?
    i am sure if it was as easy as you think it is, it would have been done by now. until then, YES, you WILL have to wait.

    Wait, so until it is EASY I will have to wait? The premise: if it were easy it would be done, it is not done, therefor it is not easy is illogical, Captain. It is very possible that there's a big old list of "easy" stuff that just isn't a priority, easy or not.

    I'm not saying this is easy. I'm also aware they can't just search and replace. I'm AMAZED that they can't, but I understand this would be a difficult and long process.

    I don't care. I want to have this put on the to-do list.

    I'd like to hear that new missions will have this ability.

    I'd like to hear that remastered missions will have this ability.

    Fixing it all at once, every mission? Yeah, long and hard.

    Adding it to new missions and fixing missions one by one as you remaster them. I'd say that is likely easier.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'm going to go ahead and side with the devs on this one and say it's not a simple find/replace function. I'll also say that I'm sure them not implementing some sort of change related to this in new remastered missions and such means they've decided it's best to wait until they have it all figured out.

    Everyone here seems to think they have the best way to fix this, but what happens if they implement something in the Foundry or new missions only to find out it doesn't work as well as they thought or doesn't allow for what the player base wanted. People want to talk about compounding the problem by doing nothing now with the new missions and with the Foundry, but what happens if they roll out the wrong solution and now have to fix two systems? I'm sure they've weighed the pros and cons and decided to come up with one solution, test it, then roll it out and I'm sure they've decided that whatever this solution is it will work for new content and old alike without too much of a headache.

    At the end of the day though it's a nice to have feature primarily requested by the RP and Lore Driven communities. Not saying those aren't important groups or that I wouldn't want this feature, I really would. As an RP person I can ignore a title of text and in my mind sub in what it should be as I "hear" the person speaking it to my character. By the very nature of RP you should be a creative person, so while this is annoying it's hardly game breaking nor in my opinion immersion breaking.

    Personally I'd rather the devs work on other features like the Klingons, new feature episodes, expanded content, bug fixes, etc, etc, etc before getting to a more "minor" feature like this. Yes we need to keep it in the back of their minds that we want it (ask it during an Ask the Devs session), but I don't think we need to continually beat a dead horse with what we think the problem is and how we're specifically going to solve it. Even if we are coders who work in the industry none of us know the code for this game and how it works so while one solution may work for something we've done it doesn't mean it'll work here. Just my two bars of gold pressed latinum on the subject.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Its annoying little things like this that remind you that Cryptic put a Corvette engine into a Lamborgini, and tried to pass it off. A Vette engine is good, but Star Trek is a Lamborgini franchise, and why the powers that be signed off on letting Cryptic get control of this game when they knew theyd be forcing a square peg into a round hole is beyond me.

    I wonder, how much original code is still being used by my PC from the STO disc I bought at Best Buy just this past Dec
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    lcars wrote: »
    I'm going to go ahead and side with the devs on this one and say it's not a simple find/replace function.

    Again, that's not the real problem. The problem is using the same tag for things that having different meanings and therefore different lookup results. Otherwise it would be simpler than find/replace; just fix the lookup table.

    Cryptic should create a new tag for item minimum level, have it resolve like rank name for now, and start using it on all new or updated item-related text. The problem doesn't get worse that way, and it can even be whittled away at during other rework of content.

    Keep the current tag for actual character rank so there's no rework required on Foundry missions when the problem does get fixed. Once the new rank system is in place and the item-related text reworked, fix the lookup function.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    camenecium wrote: »
    The longer this goes unfixed, the less likely it is to get fixed. As Cryptic and the Foundry add more content using the current system, it becomes harder and more expensive to fix because the current tags will continue to be used.



    That's not precisely true. Changing the code (hopefully a single mapping or function) that does the lookup and replace on the tag is even simpler and safer than a global search and replace on the content base. It should literally be a one-line fix (just the replace, not including the new rank functionality itself) assuming good coding practices. But, there is a complication.

    The problem according to a dstahl quote is using the same tag/function for the player's actual rank and minimum rank required on items; i.e., "Hello, [RANKNAME]." and "You must be a [RANKNAME] to use this item." The former could be a user-controlled value like a title, but the latter can't. They both use the same list of values, but they use them in semantically different ways; there should have been two distinct tags for this.

    Now, I don't completely buy this as a show-stopper either. Depending on how the code is structured, they might be able to fork the lookup/replace function in the short term and vastly cut down the impact of the changes. The ugly here is having to evaluate and change function calls and possibly introducing bugs at all those points in code instead of just one in the function itself. It's a stop-gap measure, and eventually the two need to merge back together.

    The most important fix though is that Cryptic needs separate tags for these two cases. (Although I would argue that they should just use level as a number for minimum level text since they already do this in many places like ability descriptions.) They should start using the new tags immediately and update content as they remaster things or as time allows. Using the new tags in the production version of the Foundry is critical since that's going to swell the content base--and potentially the problem--considerably.

    A very well thought out and informative post. Kudos!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Actually, it's not a case that 'search and replace' WON'T fix it - it's simply that it won't get 100% of cases:
    dstahl wrote: »
    There's close to 1000 or more instances of the dialog wildcard {RankName} and in many cases it is used in conjunction with other wildcards such as "{RankName}{LastName}, we are in need of assistance. And in other places it is used as "This weapon can be equiped by {RankName}". So a global search and replace "may" get 90% of the cases, but then there will be 10% where it makes no sense or leads to misleading information. Then when you add in the fact that it will cause a relocalization pass on every dialog, it gets tricky.

    We're looking into it and know how to address it in the code... it just takes time and resources to implement.

    10% isn't a massive problem, and it's probably going to take less time to fix than every case manually. Besides, it's not going to take very long before players report cases of odd dialogue anyway, so finding them isn't going to be a problem if such a move is taken.


    I've got to agree with the notion that the longer this takes to fix, the harder it'll be to change, especially with dialogue wildcards being so integral to using the Foundry.

    Kind of like how having true bridge officer functionality, with a proper rank hierarchy and actual positions like 'Flight Controller' and 'Ops Manager', is an increasingly unlikely prospect, since players have had over a year to get used to the current 'combat squad with special attacks in space' system - any major change is unlikely, since it's too late for the player-base to adapt. :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Actually, it's not a case that 'search and replace' WON'T fix it - it's simply that it won't get 100% of cases:



    10% isn't a massive problem, and it's probably going to take less time to fix than every case manually. Besides, it's not going to take very long before players report cases of odd dialogue anyway, so finding them isn't going to be a problem if such a move is taken.


    I've got to agree with the notion that the longer this takes to fix, the harder it'll be to change, especially with dialogue wildcards being so integral to using the Foundry.

    Kind of like how having true bridge officer functionality, with a proper rank hierarchy and actual positions like 'Flight Controller' and 'Ops Manager', is an increasingly unlikely prospect, since players have had over a year to get used to the current 'combat squad with special attacks in space' system - any major change is unlikely, since it's too late for the player-base to adapt. :(

    Sounds easy enough to fix. I don't see why this is such a big problem.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I wished they had named Rear Admiral Lower Half as Rear Admiral I and Upper Half as Rear Admiral II instead..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    VoodooKing wrote:
    I wished they had named Rear Admiral Lower Half as Rear Admiral I and Upper Half as Rear Admiral II instead..

    or just made read admiral from 1-10 and done away with lower and upper
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