Anyone else notice that during the Night of the Comet mission, there was a cowering Klingon offer in the same room next to Cassidy? Surely that would not be the case in the 23rd century!? Klingons were never afraid and certainly this was not a good placement of a NPC character in the game. Come on Cryptic, Star Trek canon is there for a reason!!
Anyone else notice that during the Night of the Comet mission, there was a cowering Klingon offer in the same room next to Cassidy? Surely that would not be the case in the 23rd century!? Klingons were never afraid and certainly this was not a good placement of a NPC character in the game. Come on Cryptic, Star Trek canon is there for a reason!!
After the Klingons were infected by the Augment virus, they mutated to lose their ridges and feel fear like humans. That's Star Trek: Enterprise, and it's Canon.
Seems a little specist to think that all Klingons act with the exact same belligerance and courage to any given situation, especially when we saw multiple examples of Klingons who didn't live up to that ideal throughout the shows.
Seems a little specist to think that all Klingons act with the exact same belligerance and courage to any given situation, especially when we saw multiple examples of Klingons who didn't live up to that ideal throughout the shows.
*claps*
I thought I was the only one who thought such things.
We are talking about Klingons who live on the wrong side of the norm. Klingons that hold no value to the Klingon Code of Conduct.
Could it be possible they exist in 2409? Yep! Most certainly. With or without the augmentation problem they went through during TOS.
Every Society has them, regardless of which of them makes it for 15 minutes of fame on the big screen, there are more of them that aren't depicted by hard or soft canon.
We all have heard the story of Duras and his father who gave the Romulans the codes to destroy the Klingon Khitomer outpost. Treachery, deceipt, and lies were Ja'rod (Father of Duras) most notable un-honorable traits. His son Duras and sister's Lursa and Be'tor were all involved in treachery and deceipt as depicted in TNG.
Bad examples of Klingons should be more depicted to get to know the species as a whole as seen with the Romulan's subserviant class called the Remans. Throughout all f Star Trek, they were not mentioned until the final Star Trek Movie Episode (Prior to Star Trek Redux) "Nemesis".
The Romulans had a whole other "outcast' group, why can't the Klingons? We just don't know about them, but they're there.
DS9 featured a GREAT Klingon episode where the PTSD General Martok was featured in virtual raving hysterics because he was afraid of confronting the Dominion again after his torture in a Dominion prison camp.
If it bugs you, remember that TOS Klingons were infected with human DNA via the augment virus, and were especially emotionally unstable.
I believe I've seen this also used to explain why they were doing things like using surgically disguised spies and maybe even why they were so chummy with the Romulans. They were not quite themselves.
Klinogns can feel fear, most of them just proper handle it or response with aggression.
There is no any ST show that I remember to show that Klinogns are without emotions.
Or the self realization that an away team full of women just beat his TRIBBLE. As my captain was fighting off Devidians so I know it wasn't me that took him out...
Heck, is there a Star Trek show that shows that Klingons don't take prisoners or would kill themselves rather than being taken prisoner?
Klingons say that stuff all the time but they always do the opposite in practice.
The closest I can think of to a Klingon actually acting like what Klingons claim to act like is when Worf kills Gowron. Every other example is usually a trick, a liar, a traitor, a shapeshifter, or someone who's nuts.
I don't think there's ever been a Klingon who acted like what Klingons claim they act like. Which might be interesting commentary if we turn the mirror back on ourselves with that but the point remains that there's no evidence that any Klingon actually lives true to most of the purported Klingon values and it only becomes a problem when you have a game like this where people play as Klingons (or Klingon LARPers) who assume that Klingon values are actually consistent with what Klingons claim their values are, because you're looking for a source for how to behave.
From a writer's perspective, I think it's easier to say that they're all hypocrites and braggarts and that none of their code really applies in action. Worf and Martok internalize the "good" aspects but most Klingons don't make good on any aspect of Klingon values and even Worf and Martok mainly fall short.
It's kinda like... Who doesn't eat shellfish? Who sends menstrating women off to the wilderness for seven days? Who treats anyone who doesn't take a vow of poverty as a moral deviant? Who stones sinners to death?
And yet people do consider themselves Jews, Christians, and Muslims. There are very few violent fundamentalists. There are fewer still who are consistent and not using that violence to shield some other kind of issue like class envy. And if you met someone who WAS committed enough to kill and die for every point set forth in their belief system (and not for anything else), they'd not only be one in a million, they'd be a jerk and a social pariah.
STO Klingons act more like Romulans than like Klinongs but that's the way ppl want them now... devs and players.
So ppl devaluate code of honor not characters
STO Klingons act more like Romulans than like Klinongs but that's the way ppl want them now... devs and players.
So ppl devaluate code of honor not characters
Were there really any Klingons on the shows who "acted like Klingons"? I don't think there was ever one or that we're meant to believe that Klingons REALLY subscribe to everything they preach.
Were there really any Klingons on the shows who "acted like Klingons"? I don't think there was ever one or that we're meant to believe that Klingons REALLY subscribe to everything they preach.
I think the Klingons were ruined by writers who had no imagination. When in doubt, turn aliens into space vikings. The Klingons I prefer the most are those from ST:VI. They were dangerous just by looking at them.
I think the Klingons were ruined by writers who had no imagination. When in doubt, turn aliens into space vikings. The Klingons I prefer the most are those from ST:VI. They were dangerous just by looking at them.
Yeah. I liked ST VI Klingons. Chang is probably my favorite Trek villain, aside from Dukat. But, again, not REALLY honorable.
Yeah. I liked ST VI Klingons. Chang is probably my favorite Trek villain, aside from Dukat. But, again, not REALLY honorable.
But I guess you could say that once the never ending threat of war with the Federation ended, the Klingons lost their way. There was an episode of DS9 of Kor and Koloth saying as much, that the modern Klingons had become a caricature of themselves.
Seems a little specist to think that all Klingons act with the exact same belligerance and courage to any given situation, especially when we saw multiple examples of Klingons who didn't live up to that ideal throughout the shows.
Klingons can breed with Humans and produce fertile offspring - how does that make them a separate species?
This is a very good point. Klingon values are a philosophical ideal. They stem largely from a legendary messianic type figure 'Kahless' who embodies all these impossible virtues in the same way 'King Arthur' might be expected to embody the codes of chivalry, only without the associated flaws of character. Actual Klingons must and do fall short of this ideal, just as all people fall short of their idealized virtues and mythological heroes.
That having been said, any Klingon would probably look at a cowering brother with some degree of disdain, and may take the Patton approach to it. This, not just because the 'coward' is falling short of the ideal, but because he is all too uncomfortable a reminder that any Klingon might succumb to such inadequacies, and that reminder forms a sense of inner disgust that people tend to turn outward.
Think of how you feel the next time you see a homeless person on the street, reduced to begging for coins and scraps. Dirty, possibly diseased, in misery. Do you feel compassion and pity? Probably. Do you feel disgust? Possibly. Do you feel fear?
How many missing paychecks separate you from him?
Look away. Shuffle on. Pretend you didn't just see a worst-case-scenario of your own fate.
Perhaps some of you have read Lord Jim? It's a tale that is almost Klingon. A young officer from a nation that prides itself on Honor performs a dishonorable act in a moment of crisis. He spends the rest of his life lamenting his decision, and striving to reclaim the honor he lost. Meanwhile, the tale of his cowardice and dishonor spans the globe amongst the sea-farers from his nation. He is frowned upon and derided as the subject of dinner conversation... And every man that speaks of Jim also feels a touch of discomfort. When push comes to shove, might not they, too, fall short of their honorable ideals?
Perhaps some of you have read Lord Jim? It's a tale that is almost Klingon. A young officer from a nation that prides itself on Honor performs a dishonorable act in a moment of crisis. He spends the rest of his life lamenting his decision, and striving to reclaim the honor he lost. Meanwhile, the tale of his cowardice and dishonor spans the globe amongst the sea-farers from his nation. He is frowned upon and derided as the subject of dinner conversation... And every man that speaks of Jim also feels a touch of discomfort. When push comes to shove, might not they, too, fall short of their honorable ideals?
I highly recommend it.
With Sir Peter O'Toole.
Very good points and well done seeing behind the veil and from outside the box.
Anyone else notice that during the Night of the Comet mission, there was a cowering Klingon offer in the same room next to Cassidy? Surely that would not be the case in the 23rd century!? Klingons were never afraid and certainly this was not a good placement of a NPC character in the game. Come on Cryptic, Star Trek canon is there for a reason!!
That is canon.
Klingons of that time did not have their warrior ridges. As a result they were honorless and weak. This has been alluded to in various DS9 and VOY episodes as well as written of in several Trek novels.
Klingons of that time did not have their warrior ridges. As a result they were honorless and weak. This has been alluded to in various DS9 and VOY episodes as well as written of in several Trek novels.
:cool:
Good gracious me. They are alive and well right now and within these forums!
Just wait a few minutes and you'll see another one, wait there he goes, did you see him?
It is true. A Galaxy refit launched a case of Chateau Picard at me in pvp, and my cloak went offline. Further, the helmsman reported a pleasant buzz and dry flavor.
However, you won't catch me whining about it. Quite frankly, I have uses for the new Bird of Prey that has nothing to do with its new cloak. I enjoy its speed and turning radius, not to mention its attractive retro look. If they were to remove the new cloak altogether and replace it with the standard issue variety while restoring the missing hull, I'd probably still fly it.
Comments
After the Klingons were infected by the Augment virus, they mutated to lose their ridges and feel fear like humans. That's Star Trek: Enterprise, and it's Canon.
*claps*
I thought I was the only one who thought such things.
We are talking about Klingons who live on the wrong side of the norm. Klingons that hold no value to the Klingon Code of Conduct.
Could it be possible they exist in 2409? Yep! Most certainly. With or without the augmentation problem they went through during TOS.
Every Society has them, regardless of which of them makes it for 15 minutes of fame on the big screen, there are more of them that aren't depicted by hard or soft canon.
We all have heard the story of Duras and his father who gave the Romulans the codes to destroy the Klingon Khitomer outpost. Treachery, deceipt, and lies were Ja'rod (Father of Duras) most notable un-honorable traits. His son Duras and sister's Lursa and Be'tor were all involved in treachery and deceipt as depicted in TNG.
Bad examples of Klingons should be more depicted to get to know the species as a whole as seen with the Romulan's subserviant class called the Remans. Throughout all f Star Trek, they were not mentioned until the final Star Trek Movie Episode (Prior to Star Trek Redux) "Nemesis".
The Romulans had a whole other "outcast' group, why can't the Klingons? We just don't know about them, but they're there.
Good call Cormoran.
DS9 featured a GREAT Klingon episode where the PTSD General Martok was featured in virtual raving hysterics because he was afraid of confronting the Dominion again after his torture in a Dominion prison camp.
Yes, Virginia, Klingons can feel fear.
I believe I've seen this also used to explain why they were doing things like using surgically disguised spies and maybe even why they were so chummy with the Romulans. They were not quite themselves.
There is no any ST show that I remember to show that Klinogns are without emotions.
Klingons say that stuff all the time but they always do the opposite in practice.
The closest I can think of to a Klingon actually acting like what Klingons claim to act like is when Worf kills Gowron. Every other example is usually a trick, a liar, a traitor, a shapeshifter, or someone who's nuts.
I don't think there's ever been a Klingon who acted like what Klingons claim they act like. Which might be interesting commentary if we turn the mirror back on ourselves with that but the point remains that there's no evidence that any Klingon actually lives true to most of the purported Klingon values and it only becomes a problem when you have a game like this where people play as Klingons (or Klingon LARPers) who assume that Klingon values are actually consistent with what Klingons claim their values are, because you're looking for a source for how to behave.
From a writer's perspective, I think it's easier to say that they're all hypocrites and braggarts and that none of their code really applies in action. Worf and Martok internalize the "good" aspects but most Klingons don't make good on any aspect of Klingon values and even Worf and Martok mainly fall short.
It's kinda like... Who doesn't eat shellfish? Who sends menstrating women off to the wilderness for seven days? Who treats anyone who doesn't take a vow of poverty as a moral deviant? Who stones sinners to death?
And yet people do consider themselves Jews, Christians, and Muslims. There are very few violent fundamentalists. There are fewer still who are consistent and not using that violence to shield some other kind of issue like class envy. And if you met someone who WAS committed enough to kill and die for every point set forth in their belief system (and not for anything else), they'd not only be one in a million, they'd be a jerk and a social pariah.
Klingon values are not how Klingons live.
So ppl devaluate code of honor not characters
Were there really any Klingons on the shows who "acted like Klingons"? I don't think there was ever one or that we're meant to believe that Klingons REALLY subscribe to everything they preach.
I think the Klingons were ruined by writers who had no imagination. When in doubt, turn aliens into space vikings. The Klingons I prefer the most are those from ST:VI. They were dangerous just by looking at them.
Yeah. I liked ST VI Klingons. Chang is probably my favorite Trek villain, aside from Dukat. But, again, not REALLY honorable.
But I guess you could say that once the never ending threat of war with the Federation ended, the Klingons lost their way. There was an episode of DS9 of Kor and Koloth saying as much, that the modern Klingons had become a caricature of themselves.
Klingons can breed with Humans and produce fertile offspring - how does that make them a separate species?
This is a very good point. Klingon values are a philosophical ideal. They stem largely from a legendary messianic type figure 'Kahless' who embodies all these impossible virtues in the same way 'King Arthur' might be expected to embody the codes of chivalry, only without the associated flaws of character. Actual Klingons must and do fall short of this ideal, just as all people fall short of their idealized virtues and mythological heroes.
That having been said, any Klingon would probably look at a cowering brother with some degree of disdain, and may take the Patton approach to it. This, not just because the 'coward' is falling short of the ideal, but because he is all too uncomfortable a reminder that any Klingon might succumb to such inadequacies, and that reminder forms a sense of inner disgust that people tend to turn outward.
Think of how you feel the next time you see a homeless person on the street, reduced to begging for coins and scraps. Dirty, possibly diseased, in misery. Do you feel compassion and pity? Probably. Do you feel disgust? Possibly. Do you feel fear?
How many missing paychecks separate you from him?
Look away. Shuffle on. Pretend you didn't just see a worst-case-scenario of your own fate.
Perhaps some of you have read Lord Jim? It's a tale that is almost Klingon. A young officer from a nation that prides itself on Honor performs a dishonorable act in a moment of crisis. He spends the rest of his life lamenting his decision, and striving to reclaim the honor he lost. Meanwhile, the tale of his cowardice and dishonor spans the globe amongst the sea-farers from his nation. He is frowned upon and derided as the subject of dinner conversation... And every man that speaks of Jim also feels a touch of discomfort. When push comes to shove, might not they, too, fall short of their honorable ideals?
I highly recommend it.
With Sir Peter O'Toole.
Very good points and well done seeing behind the veil and from outside the box.
That is canon.
Klingons of that time did not have their warrior ridges. As a result they were honorless and weak. This has been alluded to in various DS9 and VOY episodes as well as written of in several Trek novels.
:cool:
That's something you'll wan't to ask the killer B's (Or even Roddenberry considering Spock):p
Good gracious me. They are alive and well right now and within these forums!
Just wait a few minutes and you'll see another one, wait there he goes, did you see him?
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=188312
See about every few minutes or so, they keep re-appearing.
It is true. A Galaxy refit launched a case of Chateau Picard at me in pvp, and my cloak went offline. Further, the helmsman reported a pleasant buzz and dry flavor.
However, you won't catch me whining about it. Quite frankly, I have uses for the new Bird of Prey that has nothing to do with its new cloak. I enjoy its speed and turning radius, not to mention its attractive retro look. If they were to remove the new cloak altogether and replace it with the standard issue variety while restoring the missing hull, I'd probably still fly it.
Zoom Zoom.