I'll be outright and say I'm not a fan of carriers, period. They're soft canon at best (I argue fighter squadrons were instead launched by Galaxy class starships during large scale encounters like that seen in DS9). And yes, I know that the Akira was "going" to be a carrier, but canon to me means making it onto any of the TV series for general consumption.
That said, Klingon Carriers are pure garbage. Get three of these beasts in a PVP match, and it becomes impossible to beat them. This simple fact, coupled with the poor targeting system implemented in the game makes T5 PVP FvK matches unbearable.
But, carriers are going to stay, so I guess I won't win with that argument. But what I will argue is that there has to be some sort of limitation imposed soon.
Just a couple of thoughts on top my head...
a) limit the number of spawn they can produce, and the time in which they can produce them. I'll admit I don't know what the state of this ability is currently, but whatever it is, its still too short. Make it longer, so carriers actually *think* about what and when to spawn things.
b) scale the type of spawn so that they simply cannot produce multiple wings of BoPs and Vorchas. Or maybe
c) limit the number of carriers per match to 1. Not 3!
d) if not in aggro, carrier pets could be returned to the carrier, and the cooldown begins, just like with security escort (ground), or photonic fleet (space)
Seriously Cryptic. Maybe it sounds like I'm QQ-ing, but I PVP all the time and carriers are just plain garbage. And if it keeps going this way, I'm just going to ditch FvK PVP @ VA from here on out, and let others deal with that frustration.
This, along with the variety of AoE abilties that are included for each class can make short work of the little fighters or repair drones that are spawned.
a) limit the number of spawn they can produce, and the time in which they can produce them. I'll admit I don't know what the state of this ability is currently, but whatever it is, its still too short. Make it longer, so carriers actually *think* about what and when to spawn things.
Carrier's pet spawn rate is limited: 3 fighters per bay per 30 seconds up to a maximum of 12 per bay, 1 BoP per bay per 1 minute up to a maximum of 3 per bay.
d) if not in aggro, carrier pets could be returned to the carrier, and the cooldown begins, just like with security escort (ground), or photonic fleet (space)
If pets have nothing to target, they will return to the carrier and dock once the carrier leaves combat. You can only spawn pets if an enemy is within 15km of the carrier. However, as long as you have something to target they'll fly off to attack that target. Regardless of it's range.
AoE abilities are quite effective at taking down carrier pets. For example, EWP will not only annihilate any trailing fighters, but sticking it on the carrier itself will instagib any fighters that the carrier spawns.
Admittedly BoPs are harder to take down, but they are much slower than fighters. I prefer to use fighters most of the time in PvP. I don't have enough experience with having my BoPs shot down yet.
I'm beginning to think that Fed PvE needs a mission where players attack some carrier flagship, along with an NPC Admiral's explanation on how to best tackle it. Until we see anti-carrier tactics being "advertised" more, threads like this will continue to pop up again and again.
If Feds worked together more, instead of thinking they are all Capt Picard/Kirk and can solo everything, I think carriers would not be as much of a threat.
I have to agree with the OP that Klingon Carriers (as well as PvP as a whole) need to be balanced. People can justify "its easy" with X Ability like FAW or Target Auxillary, but the mainstay of players do not use these abilities. And 95% of the time, it requires a team effort to drop a Carrier.
And the NPC Spam ammount from Carriers can be extraordinary.
Fighters
BoPs
Shield Pods
Photonic Fleet
Fleet Support
Mines
It's a challenge just to target one of these. Then there is the new Orion Ship, which shouldn't be Called a Patrol Cruiser, but an Escort Carrier with thier fighters. Then lets factor in the Heal Stacking from these ships. :rolleyes:
Honestly, PvP has gotten so out of hand, it drastically needs massive restructuring. Cryptic has to redo balance every few months when they add in all these buffs, gear, ships, etc. What they need to do is redo the combat model altogether and turn the game back into Star Trek and not "Star Wars".
There is nothing wrong with carriers, I can teach you how to defeat a carrier. We can arrange private challenges. Just ask and if I'm not doing anything I'll be more than happy to teach you. Just promise me that after that you teach other fed players how to deal with it.
If Feds worked together more, instead of thinking they are all Capt Picard/Kirk and can solo everything, I think carriers would not be as much of a threat.
It's easier to spam forums with garbage than it is to rethink your build.
Makes sense.
After-all, heaven forbid you're trying to use paper against scissors and lose?
"OMG - why can't paper win?" cries the player.
"Because you're not a rock and those are scissors," says me.
===
OP:
Post your build.
We can help build you stronger. Just remember - gains made against carriers in particular will make you weaker to other classes. It's part of the game.
Spec your skills to maximize these eight abilities at least. Aux to Inertial Dampeners can also help with turning your ship to get a proper facing.
Make sure everyone approaches the carrier from different angles.
Fire the Tachyon Grid on approach (to decloak support craft)
Fire TSSS on the Carrier, just in case you get lucky and can take them down.
When shields are starting to weaken, fire gravity well and viral matrix.
Scramble Sensors to have all those trash fighters cannibalize the carrier mama-bird
When that fades, fire boarding party (crew levels should be at a point to interrupt powers)
Once aboard, fire Eject Warp Plasma
As fighters are launched, scramble sensors is a blessing. Scrambled fighters will devour their parent craft. Having escorts hang back and wait for the decloak is preferable to some escort thinking he's the biggest cowboy this side of the Rio Grande.
AoE abilities like Eject Warp Plasma and Gravity Well can crush fighters too - just make sure you're firing them close enough to the carrier. For added hilarity, use target engine subsystems on the carrier while other science vessels fire off their anomalies.
People can justify "its easy" with X Ability like FAW or Target Auxillary, but the mainstay of players do not use these abilities.
honestly then thats their fault. if you go into pvp and are not prepared to adjust your tactics then i have no sympathy. it does not take a rocket scientist to work out that small weak ships might be vulnerable to AOE abilities. i have not used fire at will in months, but i started using it again, because it works. as do the other abilities. suggesting that the bulk of players dont use those abilities is probably correct, saying they wont adjust their tactics and start using them tells me those people are not suited for competitive pvp, where tactics change.
And 95% of the time, it requires a team effort to drop a Carrier.
unlike just about every other ship that requires teamwork to take down? even escorts need teamwork to beat if they are piloted by a skilled player.
people that walk into pvp expecting to be able to win just by hitting the fire keys at the first thing that flys by are playing it wrong. you knock out a carriers pets and they suddenly start looking very vulnerable. if every fed started using a little teamwork and skill, klinks would suddenly find their carriers less appealing.
i play a feds and i play a klingons and i pvp a fair amount. there is nothing that the klinks have that cant be countered by good players. if people are not prepared to use skill, brains, tactics and teamwork then they should stick to pve.
I'm beginning to think that Fed PvE needs a mission where players attack some carrier flagship, along with an NPC Admiral's explanation on how to best tackle it. Until we see anti-carrier tactics being "advertised" more, threads like this will continue to pop up again and again.
Although this would solve I think most of the carriers are overpowered threads I doubt this will happen. Its too difficult and its too time consuming for cryptic to write up a simple tutorial like this.
The more likely scenario is cryptic nerfing the carriers into oblivion again.
Once that happens klingon players will gravitate to the new and improved Vor'cha as an effective fast attack cruiser.
Then we will see thread after thread about why that is overpowered and how all Klingon ships need a nerf. :rolleyes:
Although this would solve I think most of the carriers are overpowered threads I doubt this will happen. Its too difficult and its too time consuming for cryptic to write up a simple tutorial like this.
The more likely scenario is cryptic nerfing the carriers into oblivion again.
Once that happens klingon players will gravitate to the new and improved Vor'cha as an effective fast attack cruiser.
Then we will see thread after thread about why that is overpowered and how all Klingon ships need a nerf. :rolleyes:
honestly then thats their fault. if you go into pvp and are not prepared to adjust your tactics then i have no sympathy. it does not take a rocket scientist to work out that small weak ships might be vulnerable to AOE abilities. i have not used fire at will in months, but i started using it again, because it works. as do the other abilities. suggesting that the bulk of players dont use those abilities is probably correct, saying they wont adjust their tactics and start using them tells me those people are not suited for competitive pvp, where tactics change.
unlike just about every other ship that requires teamwork to take down? even escorts need teamwork to beat if they are piloted by a skilled player.
people that walk into pvp expecting to be able to win just by hitting the fire keys at the first thing that flys by are playing it wrong. you knock out a carriers pets and they suddenly start looking very vulnerable. if every fed started using a little teamwork and skill, klinks would suddenly find their carriers less appealing.
i play a feds and i play a klingons and i pvp a fair amount. there is nothing that the klinks have that cant be countered by good players. if people are not prepared to use skill, brains, tactics and teamwork then they should stick to pve.
Funnily enough, the Breen Cluster Torpedo is pretty good against carriers and fighters (due to heavy hull damage and the ability to attack multiple targets) - if you can AoE Confuse after launching it.
In my experience, I typically find maybe 1 Fed Escort in any given PvP match while the rest are flying Cruisers or Science Vessels. It's only natural that most Feds would want to fly cruisers because outside of DS9, that's pretty much all you saw in the Star Trek franchise.
That being said, even with the combined Defenses and Science abilities of said ships, they simply lack the firepower or the maneuverability to effectively take down a Carrier in a reasonable amount of time before it's already spawned a 4th wave of fighters and BoP's while at the same time, taking the brunt of 2 or 3 Raptor or BoP Alpha strikes.
I would agree that one Carrier is still managable but I believe the focus of the OP's arguement was any match containing 2 or more Carriers in a coordinated premade is virtually unwinnable. Even in a Fed pre-made, that many carriers is a slaughter.
In my experience, I typically find maybe 1 Fed Escort in any given PvP match while the rest are flying Cruisers or Science Vessels. It's only natural that most Feds would want to fly cruisers because outside of DS9, that's pretty much all you saw in the Star Trek franchise.
That being said, even with the combined Defenses and Science abilities of said ships, they simply lack the firepower or the maneuverability to effectively take down a Carrier in a reasonable amount of time before it's already spawned a 4th wave of fighters and BoP's while at the same time, taking the brunt of 2 or 3 Raptor or BoP Alpha strikes.
I would agree that one Carrier is still managable but I believe the focus of the OP's arguement was any match containing 2 or more Carriers in a coordinated premade is virtually unwinnable. Even in a Fed pre-made, that many carriers is a slaughter.
unless you have a build that is able to manage debuffs and aoe better than an escort can.
unless you have a build that is able to manage debuffs and aoe better than an escort can.
So you sacrifice survivability to deal with one ship class while the other 2/3rds of the Klink team cuts you up?
I would simply propose maybe each Fighter costing 10 Crew and each BoP costing 100 Crew. Just as the Galaxy-R has to sacrifice 90% of the crew for its 'useless' pet.
So you sacrifice survivability to deal with one ship class while the other 2/3rds of the Klink team cuts you up?
I would simply propose maybe each Fighter costing 10 Crew and each BoP costing 100 Crew. Just as the Galaxy-R has to sacrifice 90% of its crew for its pet.
No, I'm just saying that some ships aren't suited for taking down a Carrier (and, on a team, all escort isn't ideal due to still-used tactic of having enemy escorts decloak when the fed makes a strafing run).
For one on one, an escort would be fine against a carrier. However, in the context of a team, Nebulas and escorts are better suited for engaging 2+ carriers.
If you read my suggested ability build on the previous page, you can see why that design is ideal for bringing down a single carrier or helping a team take out three.
I've started popping off Dispersal pattern alpha 2 mine groups to deal with carrier pets. (as each group of mines will go for a different fighter. And the AOE is usually enough to maim or kill it's neighboring fighters.
Scatter volley if aimed at the carrier just as it launches does wonders as well. (Infact I'm considering dropping my Rapid Fire 1 for CSV1 to do better in FvK and have CSV1 and 2 at that point)
Warp Plasma when used correctly is devastating for carrier groups as well, as is two copies of Fire At Will coupled with Attack Pattern Beta. Which yeah pretty much dictates that the cruisers are going to be Assault or Excelsior in FvK to deal with carrier groups, as they have the speed to deliver the Plasma, and the tac slots for two FAWs, and a Beta afterwards.
Of course, the other solution for dealing with carriers is to Not Pug. Which really if you're serious about FvK you shouldn't be doing anyway, as most matches I've been in the Klingons are on Vent together and are a Team.
While 3x carriers is utterly insane (and boring) it's beatable, as the fed team should have more than enough AOEs, and heals to make a mockery of the fighters. At that point it just becomes a matter of wearing down those damned healing voquvs. Which can take forever and a day.
Comments
trust me; use it.
This, along with the variety of AoE abilties that are included for each class can make short work of the little fighters or repair drones that are spawned.
I think you're talking about Photonic Fleet here. This isn't a carrier-specific issue.
If pets have nothing to target, they will return to the carrier and dock once the carrier leaves combat. You can only spawn pets if an enemy is within 15km of the carrier. However, as long as you have something to target they'll fly off to attack that target. Regardless of it's range.
AoE abilities are quite effective at taking down carrier pets. For example, EWP will not only annihilate any trailing fighters, but sticking it on the carrier itself will instagib any fighters that the carrier spawns.
Admittedly BoPs are harder to take down, but they are much slower than fighters. I prefer to use fighters most of the time in PvP. I don't have enough experience with having my BoPs shot down yet.
And the NPC Spam ammount from Carriers can be extraordinary.
It's a challenge just to target one of these. Then there is the new Orion Ship, which shouldn't be Called a Patrol Cruiser, but an Escort Carrier with thier fighters. Then lets factor in the Heal Stacking from these ships. :rolleyes:
Honestly, PvP has gotten so out of hand, it drastically needs massive restructuring. Cryptic has to redo balance every few months when they add in all these buffs, gear, ships, etc. What they need to do is redo the combat model altogether and turn the game back into Star Trek and not "Star Wars".
There is nothing wrong with carriers, I can teach you how to defeat a carrier. We can arrange private challenges. Just ask and if I'm not doing anything I'll be more than happy to teach you. Just promise me that after that you teach other fed players how to deal with it.
PS. It's not the ship it's the pilot that counts
That's a two way street the way I see it.
Carriers appear to be the antithesis of teamwork.
They're not and flying your Exploration Cruiser is sign enough that you haven't found a proper anticarrier build.
It's easier to spam forums with garbage than it is to rethink your build.
Makes sense.
After-all, heaven forbid you're trying to use paper against scissors and lose?
"OMG - why can't paper win?" cries the player.
"Because you're not a rock and those are scissors," says me.
===
OP:
We can help build you stronger. Just remember - gains made against carriers in particular will make you weaker to other classes. It's part of the game.
Really? You don't see spawning your own mini fleet as a counter to teamwork? hmm...
And exploration cruisers can too be effective as an anti carrier build
Irony. This post has it.
If they're effective as anti-carrier, wouldn't that defeat your entire premise?
Why not bring a team of Exploration Cruiser Refits versus a team of carriers if it really is so effective?
If a escort:
here's my favorite one that helps a team overcome carrier more easily:
honestly then thats their fault. if you go into pvp and are not prepared to adjust your tactics then i have no sympathy. it does not take a rocket scientist to work out that small weak ships might be vulnerable to AOE abilities. i have not used fire at will in months, but i started using it again, because it works. as do the other abilities. suggesting that the bulk of players dont use those abilities is probably correct, saying they wont adjust their tactics and start using them tells me those people are not suited for competitive pvp, where tactics change.
unlike just about every other ship that requires teamwork to take down? even escorts need teamwork to beat if they are piloted by a skilled player.
people that walk into pvp expecting to be able to win just by hitting the fire keys at the first thing that flys by are playing it wrong. you knock out a carriers pets and they suddenly start looking very vulnerable. if every fed started using a little teamwork and skill, klinks would suddenly find their carriers less appealing.
i play a feds and i play a klingons and i pvp a fair amount. there is nothing that the klinks have that cant be countered by good players. if people are not prepared to use skill, brains, tactics and teamwork then they should stick to pve.
Although this would solve I think most of the carriers are overpowered threads I doubt this will happen. Its too difficult and its too time consuming for cryptic to write up a simple tutorial like this.
The more likely scenario is cryptic nerfing the carriers into oblivion again.
Once that happens klingon players will gravitate to the new and improved Vor'cha as an effective fast attack cruiser.
Then we will see thread after thread about why that is overpowered and how all Klingon ships need a nerf. :rolleyes:
Exactly!..................................
QFT........
That being said, even with the combined Defenses and Science abilities of said ships, they simply lack the firepower or the maneuverability to effectively take down a Carrier in a reasonable amount of time before it's already spawned a 4th wave of fighters and BoP's while at the same time, taking the brunt of 2 or 3 Raptor or BoP Alpha strikes.
I would agree that one Carrier is still managable but I believe the focus of the OP's arguement was any match containing 2 or more Carriers in a coordinated premade is virtually unwinnable. Even in a Fed pre-made, that many carriers is a slaughter.
unless you have a build that is able to manage debuffs and aoe better than an escort can.
So you sacrifice survivability to deal with one ship class while the other 2/3rds of the Klink team cuts you up?
I would simply propose maybe each Fighter costing 10 Crew and each BoP costing 100 Crew. Just as the Galaxy-R has to sacrifice 90% of the crew for its 'useless' pet.
No, I'm just saying that some ships aren't suited for taking down a Carrier (and, on a team, all escort isn't ideal due to still-used tactic of having enemy escorts decloak when the fed makes a strafing run).
For one on one, an escort would be fine against a carrier. However, in the context of a team, Nebulas and escorts are better suited for engaging 2+ carriers.
If you read my suggested ability build on the previous page, you can see why that design is ideal for bringing down a single carrier or helping a team take out three.
Scatter volley if aimed at the carrier just as it launches does wonders as well. (Infact I'm considering dropping my Rapid Fire 1 for CSV1 to do better in FvK and have CSV1 and 2 at that point)
Warp Plasma when used correctly is devastating for carrier groups as well, as is two copies of Fire At Will coupled with Attack Pattern Beta. Which yeah pretty much dictates that the cruisers are going to be Assault or Excelsior in FvK to deal with carrier groups, as they have the speed to deliver the Plasma, and the tac slots for two FAWs, and a Beta afterwards.
Of course, the other solution for dealing with carriers is to Not Pug. Which really if you're serious about FvK you shouldn't be doing anyway, as most matches I've been in the Klingons are on Vent together and are a Team.
While 3x carriers is utterly insane (and boring) it's beatable, as the fed team should have more than enough AOEs, and heals to make a mockery of the fighters. At that point it just becomes a matter of wearing down those damned healing voquvs. Which can take forever and a day.
So because certain players are too lazy to adapt we have to change the entire pVp game to cater to the lowest common denominator?