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Please... remove the federation fighters

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
The november 12 release notes include this line:

•Federation and Mirror Universe Federation fleets have added the Peregrine Fighter to their roster.

Please, please take these back out.

For both the sake of canon and the sake of game play, fighters do not belong in the federation roster for ship battles. Klingons and Orions make sense. The Klingons have a tradition similar to bushido, and the concept of kamikaze attacks by klingon warriors who want an honourable death in old age is reasonable. Furthermore, the first Orion episode clearly shows them as a people willing to use suicide as a means to a military end.

:eek: The idea of the Federation putting it's people into such a defensless vehicle in a fleet battle is complete nonsense.

From a game perspective this is the beginning of the end. Fed fanboys will now increase their demand for carriers, and their eventual inclusion will end any chance that STO combat will have of resembling the shows and movies.

The basic premise of the shows is that the capital ship is the superior war vehicle and that future technology will cause things to develop similar to the age of sail... Kirk was described by Roddenberry as Horatio Hornblower in space. There is no different medium between air and sea for something like modern bomber / carrier tactics to develop. The closest you could come would be the sloop / PT boat and we already have those in the game as runabouts. One man shuttles might be used for policing transports at a base, but police do not fight in battles... they run. :eek:

Fighters are in the game for 1 reason... some of the people at Task Force Games were in the American navy and wanted what they were familiar with in the Star Fleet Battles game, so the fighter shuttle first appeared. Later they were written into DS9 and even the ships started zooming around like airplanes. It didn't look right.

IMO, it won't make a better game to increase the NPC spam.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Yeah, they totally never used fighters... Except for all those battles in DS9 where the Federation used fighters...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Amosov wrote:
    Yeah, they totally never used fighters... Except for all those battles in DS9 where the Federation used fighters...
    Don't you just love it when people try to argue "but it's against canon!" and then they show that they obviously have no clue what the canon really is?

    Peregrine Fighters were shown on screen in a lot of episodes. They're canon. Arguing that they shouldn't be in a Star Trek game makes no sense.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    No, Richander, because they're part of the TV shows.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I always thought the basic premise of the shows was exploring the human condition in a sci-fi setting rather than what ships they needed to use.

    I think fighters gives you the chance to explore that somewhat, they may be quite useful and you must decide whether or not you wish to sacrifice some of those under you in an attempt that you don't end up losing all hands from disruptor poisoning, Something like the vulcan axiom 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few'.

    so Cryptic, Please.... Leave the federation fighters in.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Cormoran wrote: »
    I always thought the basic premise of the shows was exploring the human condition in a sci-fi setting rather than what ships they needed to use.

    I think fighters gives you the chance to explore that somewhat, they may be quite useful and you must decide whether or not you wish to sacrifice some of those under you in an attempt that you don't end up losing all hands from disruptor poisoning, Something like the vulcan axiom 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few'.

    so Cryptic, Please.... Leave the federation fighters in.

    Also, leave the fighters in for those that watched DS:9 - because they were on that show.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Cormoran wrote: »
    I think fighters gives you the chance to explore that somewhat, they may be quite useful and you must decide whether or not you wish to sacrifice some of those under you in an attempt that you don't end up losing all hands from disruptor poisoning, Something like the vulcan axiom 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few'.

    Troi killed Geordie... she had to for the promotion. The Federation are bloodthirsty... :mad:

    Okay, it was holo-Geordie, but whatever... :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    While I am against Federation carriers, I am not against Federation fighters. Besides, the Peregrine fighters are canon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Also, leave the fighters in for those that watched DS:9 - because they were on that show.

    Yes that too, as the OP said "For the sake of canon" :D

    Also DS9 additions reminds me, we need the ability to deck Q.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    After carefully re-reading the OP, he acknowledges that they're in the series - but still has a problem with them because they "don't look right" in DS:9.

    Also, he thinks Klingon Culture is "bushido"????
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    so to make sure i get this right more canon ships = bad NPC spam
    and here i was thinking it greatly adds to the variety in faction ships...silly me
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    After carefully re-reading the OP, he acknowledges that they're in the series - but still has a problem with them because they "don't look right" in DS:9.
    Yes. The OP, like a LOT of Trekkies, thinks that he can decide what's canon and what isn't.

    Those things that he likes are canon. Those things that appeared on screen that he doesn't like "aren't really canon because of blah blah blah."

    No blah blah blah!! If it was on screen then it's canon. It doesn't matter if YOU don't like it or not!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I think this game's long past having any regard to canon. Wandering round ESD demonstrates that daily. The way things stand they could add an ocean liner or a blimp and it wouldn't make a difference. What are a few extra fighters gonna do to kill something that's already dead...and buried.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    After carefully re-reading the OP, he acknowledges that they're in the series....

    Yes, but he contradicts that a couple of times.

    "For [...] the sake of canon [...] fighters do not belong in the federation roster for ship battles."

    "The idea of the Federation putting it's people into such a defensless vehicle in a fleet battle is complete nonsense."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    <soapbox>
    Gene gave us Star Trek. Gene gave us the Federation. Gene also gave us the Klingons and the Borg. Now, are you telling me that after an attack like Wolf 359 the Federation is not going to look back at their history and say, "You know, it was fun while it lasted. But there are dangerous folks out there. We may want to give Starfleet's military role a little more emphasis." Especially when you consider the only reason Earth wasn't assimilated was Riker's daddy issues causing him to HAVE to rescue Picard.

    In canon up to Gene's death, the Federation was involved in at least one major war with the Romulans and on again, off again confrontations with the Klingons. Gene may have had a utopian view of the future. But at some point utopia has to meet reality. Just as the Defiant was a response to the Borg invasion, I believe Starfleet created fighters in response to the numerous other conflicts they were in.
    </soapbox>
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Yes, but he contradicts that a couple of times.

    "For [...] the sake of canon [...] fighters do not belong in the federation roster for ship battles."

    "The idea of the Federation putting it's people into such a defensless vehicle in a fleet battle is complete nonsense."

    Oh - I'm not agreeing with him. I think fighters are part of Trek's fiction and that his values do not supplant that of the group. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Oh - I'm not agreeing with him. I think fighters are part of Trek's fiction and that his values do not supplant that of the group. :)

    Oh I know.

    It's just that although he did acknowledge that they're part of canon like you said, he also... kinda said they weren't.

    It's like he walked away from the keyboard mid-post and someone else more familiar with Star Trek finished it for him. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Oh I know.

    It's just that although he did acknowledge that they're part of canon like you said, he also... kinda said they weren't.

    It's like he walked away from the keyboard mid-post and someone else more familiar with Star Trek finished it for him. :p

    The second half was written by Bonnie-Kin....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    i say heck NO and give the feds a carrier im for feds having carriers
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    OP has a point in one thing:

    The Peregrines aka "Federation Attack Fighters" are refitted civilian courier vessels (source: TNG), also used by Starfleet as Academy Trainers (source: Voyager). They are - to quote an on-screen description - "lightly armed shuttlecraft" (TNG) with one or two pilots, that are outrun and outgunned by Runabouts (DS9).

    The sole reason for why Starfleet took those poor Peregrines off the Academy and sent a hundred cadets to their deaths was because the Federation had no other choice than to give everything they had at their disposal. Had Sisko not managed to recapture DS9 before the Dominion deactivated the minefield, the Dominion would have received enough reinforcements that the Federation would have lost the entire war, and with it the Alpha Quadrant, and lastly its very existence.

    So, is the Peregrines showing up in STO canon? I don't believe the Federation is yet in a similar situation as it was in DS9 (i.e. close to losing the war), and as such there is no pressure to send off young cadets to suicide missions akin to the one in the famous DS9 episode "Sacrifice of Angels". However, there are some other things to consider as well. STO is a game, and whilst I usually campaign for staying as close to canon as possible, there is a certain room to maneuver without things becoming unbelievable:

    It comes down to how the Peregrines are used. Suicide attacks and full-scale fleet actions like the one in "Sacrifice" hardly seem appropriate, but scouting, reconnaisance and patrol missions are within the realm of possibilities. From what I understood, the Peregrines have been implemented into the game to replace the existing Runabout squadron mobs, which is an improvement (for just like Peregrines should not be used as "disposable" kamikaze fighters, Runabouts should not be used in wings as if they are some small aircraft).

    I remain an adamant opponent of Starfleet Carriers, though. Peregrines are independent (hence used as couriers), they don't need a dedicated carrier and neither Starfleet nor the Maquis(!) used one to get them to the action.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Valias wrote:
    OP has a point in one thing:

    The Peregrines aka "Federation Attack Fighters" are refitted civilian courier vessels (source: TNG), also used by Starfleet as Academy Trainers (source: Voyager). They are - to quote an on-screen description - "lightly armed shuttlecraft" (TNG) with one or two pilots, that are outrun and outgunned by Runabouts (DS9).

    The sole reason for why Starfleet took those poor Peregrines off the Academy and sent a hundred cadets to their deaths was because the Federation had no other choice than to give everything they had at their disposal. Had Sisko not managed to recapture DS9 before the Dominion deactivated the minefield, the Dominion would have received enough reinforcements that the Federation would have lost the entire war, and with it the Alpha Quadrant, and lastly its very existence.

    So, is the Peregrines showing up in STO canon? I don't believe the Federation is yet in a similar situation as it was in DS9 (i.e. close to losing the war), and as such there is no pressure to send off young cadets to suicide missions akin to the one in the famous DS9 episode "Sacrifice of Angels". However, there are some other things to consider as well. STO is a game, and whilst I usually campaign for staying as close to canon as possible, there is a certain room to maneuver without things becoming unbelievable:

    It comes down to how the Peregrines are used. Suicide attacks and full-scale fleet actions like the one in "Sacrifice" hardly seem appropriate, but scouting, reconnaisance and patrol missions are within the realm of possibilities. From what I understood, the Peregrines have been implemented into the game to replace the existing Runabout squadron mobs, which is an improvement (for just like Peregrines should not be used as "disposable" kamikaze fighters, Runabouts should not be used in wings as if they are some small aircraft).

    I remain an adamant opponent of Starfleet Carriers, though. Peregrines are independent (hence used as couriers), they don't need a dedicated carrier and neither Starfleet nor the Maquis(!) used one to get them to the action.
    I'll disagree slighly and simply say that I feel that in the roughly 40 years since your TNG and DS9 canon examples Starfleet has come to realize that having dedicated fighters as part of their arsenal is important. Peregrines are now past the point of simply being refit civilian and academy courier ships. They are a dedicated class of ship which has been added to the fleet because of all the threats over the last 4 decades.

    As for not close to losing the war, which war are you referring to? The Klingon war? The Borg war? The Undine war? The war against the True Way terrorists? The war against the Terran Empire terrorists? Starfleet is fighting battles on nearly every front in this timeline. Starfleet wishes that it only had Klinks or Borgs to deal with. While you might not see any of these wars as being as prominant as the DS9 conflict I think taken as a whole they're much greater threat to the Federation. I can agree that Cryptic doesn't really show the Federation as being threated: there's no drama or sense of loss but that's a meta-game issue. I think the Federation is in the worst shape its ever been in.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    No blah blah blah!!

    Nice TOS Quote there..."Miri" ftw.

    Oh, and yes to Federation fighters.

    DS9 had the best space battles ever filmed. Go fighters!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Cosmic_One wrote: »
    I'll disagree slighly and simply say that I feel that in the roughly 40 years since your TNG and DS9 canon examples Starfleet has come to realize that having dedicated fighters as part of their arsenal is important.
    Well then they should build such fighters, and not Peregrines, no? :D

    But honestly, watch TNG and DS9 again and see how useful fighters actually are. Against capital ships their strategic value is nigh zero. They were used as a distraction in the Dominion War - and that's all they're good for in fleet engagements. Why would Starfleet build flying coffins? Recon Peregrines I can stomach ... but Star Wars fighters? No.
    Cosmic_One wrote: »
    As for not close to losing the war, which war are you referring to? The Klingon war? The Borg war? The Undine war? The war against the True Way terrorists? The war against the Terran Empire terrorists?
    Every single one of them. From what I can see, the UFP is still handling itself quite well.

    Also, the conflict with the True Way is hardly a "war", that's a peacekeeping operation. And the Undine ... that's not a proper war either, but primarily a covert conflict between Starfleet Security and shapechanging infiltrators. Rarely do you see fleets of Undine and Starfleet vessels fighting each other. But this only as a sidenote.
    Cosmic_One wrote: »
    I can agree that Cryptic doesn't really show the Federation as being threated: there's no drama or sense of loss but that's a meta-game issue. I think the Federation is in the worst shape its ever been in.
    I'd say it's actually the opposite. You think the Federation is threatened because you see fleets of thousands of battleships popping up all over the map, when in reality, the Klingon Empire (for example) would maybe have a dozen Negh'vars and carriers altogether. The factions are bloated up beyond recognition simply because this is an MMO and people need targets to shoot at. And the more players you have, the more enemies you need to keep them busy.

    As long as Starfleet can still send out ships for exploration instead of throwing everything they have to the front, I don't think they're that hard-pressed. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Well, to be fair, they aren't ships designed to be fighters. They were ships outfitted to fill a "fighter" role during wartime. This implies that starfleet doesn't routinely use fighters. but will make them if the need arises, from existing platforms.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Yes. The OP, like a LOT of Trekkies, thinks that he can decide what's canon and what isn't.

    Those things that he likes are canon. Those things that appeared on screen that he doesn't like "aren't really canon because of blah blah blah."

    No blah blah blah!! If it was on screen then it's canon. It doesn't matter if YOU don't like it or not!

    Peregrine_Falcon - you should be removed from this thread as your not canon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    nynik wrote:
    Peregrine_Falcon - you should be removed from this thread as your not canon.

    noes! dont remove peregrine ! *hugs*

    i will however blindly proclaim the enterprise series not cannon .... :P ... *giggle*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    richander wrote: »

    :eek: The idea of the Federation putting it's people into such a defensless vehicle in a fleet battle is complete nonsense.

    From a game perspective this is the beginning of the end. Fed fanboys will now increase their demand for carriers, and their eventual inclusion will end any chance that STO combat will have of resembling the shows and movies.

    The basic premise of the shows is that the capital ship is the superior war vehicle and that future technology will cause things to develop similar to the age of sail... Kirk was described by Roddenberry as Horatio Hornblower in space. There is no different medium between air and sea for something like modern bomber / carrier tactics to develop. The closest you could come would be the sloop / PT boat and we already have those in the game as runabouts. One man shuttles might be used for policing transports at a base, but police do not fight in battles... they run. :eek:

    What? Of course the Federation has fighters. Don't you remember the Best of Both Worlds, when the Borg Cube entered Terran space, it was one shotting fighters that were being thrown at it? You're right they don't show them as often as they should (in my opinion) but they are there...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Hello

    MIRROR Feds

    The mirror feds are like the regular klingons on a really bad day.
    Would they stick crew members in ...basically crew guided torpedoes ? in a heart beat.

    These folks consider absolute pain a useful training tool
    Promotion by assassination

    hello.....
    It is not a far stretch to figure that they would stick crew members that officers suspect
    of disloyalty in them, to be rid of them.....They just don't tell them THIER fighter is
    a kamakazi.......pilot makes an attack run and...wow, darn thing refuses to pull away
    once the pilot had picked an attack target....opsey, write it off as a malfuncion.

    LOL.....mirror feds

    Regular feds, well they should not have them....goes without saying
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    richander wrote: »
    For...the sake of canon.
    Pretty much proven they are canon in post #2. Really doesn't matter if they were only trainers or civ craft prior to events on DS9, they were fighters in (for example) Sacrifice of Angles, and reasonably powerful enough to send up against the Cardi and Jem'Hadar ships to...well, be sent in the 1st place.

    :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    anyone notice he hasnt posted since. i smell a troll topic
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