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Bonnie-Kin, Rage, Rage, Your Uniforms Should Be the Ones From "The Cage" (spoilers)

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
So... Regarding "What Lies Beneath"...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

I obviously LOVED this mission like many of you. I think it's probably the best so far.

However... 2265. Shouldn't the uniforms be the ones from "The Cage"?

That would basically be TOS uniforms with collars and ops wearing more of a peach/khaki color, right?

I wouldn't think that would take TOO long to do since you could basically slap the TOS textures onto one of the turtleneck shirts and throw the WoK collar texture on top.
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Not necessarily. Remember we only saw one episode of TOS in 2265, specifically Where No Man Has Gone Before. The new "Classic" TOS Uniforms appeared the very next episode, but in the year of 2266. Generally there is a time of transition in which uniform styles end up transitioning though. A change in a uniform isn't an immediate "wear new uniform now" approach.

    In fact the Star Trek Vanguard Novels dealt with this issue, in stating that the classic uniforms were adopted in 2265 but that those ships out on assignment would receive their new sets upon arriving at well stocked and supplied Federation Starbases/Planets. After all replicators weren't around in the 23rd century, so whipping up a new uniform just wasn't feasible.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    So... Regarding "What Lies Beneath"...

    S
    P
    O
    I
    L
    E
    R
    S

    I obviously LOVED this mission like many of you. I think it's probably the best so far.

    However... 2265. Shouldn't the uniforms be the ones from "The Cage"?

    That would basically be TOS uniforms with collars and ops wearing more of a peach/khaki color, right?

    I wouldn't think that would take TOO long to do since you could basically slap the TOS textures onto one of the turtleneck shirts and throw the WoK collar texture on top.

    You should have an opportunity to check the exact stardate, and from there you can tell exactly when it's set . . .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    jheinig wrote: »
    You should have an opportunity to check the exact stardate, and from there you can tell exactly when it's set . . .

    Ah... 27-something if memory serves.

    That places it circa "Dagger of the Mind", "What are Little Girls Made of?" and "Miri".

    I guess I need to play through on an alt to get the exact date.

    Definitely seems to rule out any theories it's set before Scotty was assigned to the Enterprise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Incidentally, it sure seems to me like this would be just before the destruction of the Neural Neutralizer which, come to think of it, might be an effective anti-Devidian weapon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    After all replicators weren't around in the 23rd century, so whipping up a new uniform just wasn't feasible.

    Yes they were. The NX class has reclyers which which make all sorts of things from handrails to boot they war. (I need to watch that Enterprise episode again). And in the TOS, episode with the rogue historian that formed a TRIBBLE state. Kirk ordered McCoy to beam down in a SS medical officer's uniform. He showed up in a manner of minutes. I doubt the Federation stocks SS uniforms as standard equipment. And I seem to recall McCoy complaining about the computer making the boots too small just after he beamed down.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Not necessarily. Remember we only saw one episode of TOS in 2265, specifically Where No Man Has Gone Before. The new "Classic" TOS Uniforms appeared the very next episode, but in the year of 2266. Generally there is a time of transition in which uniform styles end up transitioning though. A change in a uniform isn't an immediate "wear new uniform now" approach.

    In fact the Star Trek Vanguard Novels dealt with this issue, in stating that the classic uniforms were adopted in 2265 but that those ships out on assignment would receive their new sets upon arriving at well stocked and supplied Federation Starbases/Planets. After all replicators weren't around in the 23rd century, so whipping up a new uniform just wasn't feasible.

    No need to go out of the way to explain it... DS9 shows TNG the jumpsuit uniforms 3 years after the DS9/movie uniforms are introduced. And in the 24th century it'd be a simple matter of recycling the old and creating the new, so there wouldn't be any real delay.

    Basically... it's canon that Starfleet tends to use multiple uniform styles at the same time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    jheinig wrote: »
    You should have an opportunity to check the exact stardate, and from there you can tell exactly when it's set . . .


    you do know tha stardate system differs from the earth year, right? the earliest TOS eps has the stardate as being 1314.xx. so, The Cage would be sometime between 800-1000, tho it could be earlier or later than that but certainy not prior to 1300. I hope you guys aren't taking a cue from abrams agregeous mistakes, and getting this wrong is one of them
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    jheinig wrote: »
    You should have an opportunity to check the exact stardate, and from there you can tell exactly when it's set . . .

    I'm not sure about the stardate, but the only production set in the year 2265, according to Memory Alpha (site), is "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

    http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/2265

    I couldn't find anything to correspond with the stardate given, though. (2715.6)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    If the 2715.6 stardate is correct then we go back to just after the "Dagger of the Mind" episode which was on stardate 2715.1 through to 2715.3, although that could be really wrong as the "Miri" episode take place between stardates 2713.5 and 2717.3. Silly continuity errors.:p

    With these episodes that would make the year 2266 not 2265.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The relation between real years and stardates has been chaotic all through Star Trek's history. That's why the new movie has its own new Stardate system diferent from that one, because it not allways made sense.

    In fact, the classic Stardate system was invented in order to make it possible to NOT relate any stardate to real dates, but they llater tried to relate them, and then it began to become strange.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Don't forget that the uniforms have to be made of paper and tear the instant the character get into a fight...or stretches.

    Cryptic, if you now have wing animation for ships, could you also have clothing ripping animation for Feds who use the tos uniforms?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    TOS had a lot of problems with stardates: like Chekov being on an away team long before he joined the crew chronologically. It only gets worse between series. TNG had some egregious errors too.

    Also, this episode goes after Daggers of the MInd, if I recall.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    TOS had a lot of problems with stardates: like Chekov being on an away team long before he joined the crew chronologically. It only gets worse between series. TNG had some egregious errors too.

    Also, this episode goes after Daggers of the MInd, if I recall.

    There's also one in the DS9 two part story "In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light" in season 5 where Sisko mentions "the recent Borg attack" in reference to First Contact. However the stardate of the story puts it before the events of the film. The stardate given is 50564.2, whereas First Contact mentions 50893.5.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Amosov wrote:
    There's also one in the DS9 two part story "In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light" in season 5 where Sisko mentions "the recent Borg attack" in reference to First Contact. However the stardate of the story puts it before the events of the film. The stardate given is 50564.2, whereas First Contact mentions 50893.5.
    What's great is how some Trekkers' cognitive dissonance is so strong that they try to maintain that all the dates are accurate - despite the common sense conclusion being that the writers didn't care too much and the dates are wrong and "relax-it's-just-a-sci-fi-show."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Let me remind you, that the Stardate System was not ment to be matching real time or dates.

    For TNG there was this Explanation given for the writers:

    "A stardate is a five-digit number followed by a decimal point and one more digit. Example: "41254.7." The first two digits of the stardate are always "41." The 4 stands for 24th century, the 1 indicates first season. The additional three leading digits will progress unevenly during the course of the season from 000 to 999. The digit following the decimal point is generally regarded as a day counter."

    For the Original Series there was no real system, though Roddenberry stated that there was a mysterious system that would make no sense unless you know how it works... sounds to me like "we had no idea, but it's more interesting like that" ^^
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Goraq wrote: »
    If the 2715.6 stardate is correct then we go back to just after the "Dagger of the Mind" episode which was on stardate 2715.1 through to 2715.3, although that could be really wrong as the "Miri" episode take place between stardates 2713.5 and 2717.3. Silly continuity errors.:p

    With these episodes that would make the year 2266 not 2265.

    Not so much continuity errors, as NETWORK ones.

    See, when Roddenberry and Bennett were wrokin on this part of the Star Trek mythos, they had to take into account that the network would air the episodes out of shooting order. Therefore, the "stardates" would never form any kind of sense tot he viewers. They rationalized it as being based off a calculation that took a umber of factors into account, but could be "reverse-decoded" if there was need. Therefore, the "stardates" are arbitrary and always have been.

    Not a continuity error, but a recognition of necessity on Roddenberry's part. That's for TOS, TNG et al use a different system, and the Abramsverse yet another one.

    (From The Making of Star Trek , Stephen Whitfield, 1967)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I'm just gonna enjoy the game and TOS crossover, and not bog my mind down with these trivial things.

    :cool:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Someone posted about the "Star Trek: Vanguard" book series, which takes place starting in 2265 in the pilot book. In that book, they establish that the primary color uniforms are being phased in during that time period.

    As Drozanna Station is a starbase, it is highly likely that they would have the TOS uniforms rather than the "Where No Man Has Gone Before" uniforms. (NOTE: "The Cage" uniforms wouldn't apply here. They are 1 step back from the "Where No Man Has Gone Before" uniforms which were still being used in 2265 and 2266. The events of "The Cage" take place during Pike's 5 year mission, which is pre-2265)

    But, what would have been cool to see would be a mixture of TOS and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" aboard Drozanna, then the assets would be there for offering the "Where No Man Has Gone Before" uniform costumes for the players.

    Regardless, the TOS uniforms are fine for 2265, as that is about when they started to show up on Starfleet officers.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    What's great is how some Trekkers' cognitive dissonance is so strong that they try to maintain that all the dates are accurate - despite the common sense conclusion being that the writers didn't care too much and the dates are wrong and "relax-it's-just-a-sci-fi-show."

    did you hear the term cognitive dissonance somewhere and try to fit it into a sentence just now?

    as far as the uniforms, they should be TOS. And we should fight our way through a constitution class ship.

    with canon sized ceilings
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    SP3CTREnyc wrote:
    with canon sized ceilings

    not going to happen. I suggest you adapt.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    SP3CTREnyc wrote:
    did you hear the term cognitive dissonance somewhere and try to fit it into a sentence just now?

    as far as the uniforms, they should be TOS. And we should fight our way through a constitution class ship.

    with canon sized ceilings
    There's no denying that stardates in Star Trek are not consistently used and errors abound with them. :)

    However, some Trekkers love to just pretend that it's entirely consistent in spite of the evidence, much like how some people, when confronted by two mutually exclusive beliefs, will make up strange and esoteric rules as to why those beliefs are somehow compatible (or just ignore the dissonance between the two mutually exclusive statements).

    Think of conspiracy theorists, who in spite of tons of evidence, will find ways to hand-wave and explain everything to confirm their bias (like "Elvis is Alive" conspiracy theorists) and reconcile two incompatible beliefs.

    It's an interesting phenomenon that explains why it's so hard to get rid of biases within cultures or social groups (like trying to explain to a doomsday comet group that there's no indication of benevolent aliens on the comet).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    not going to happen. I suggest you adapt.

    Resistance is futile. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    There's no denying that stardates in Star Trek are not consistently used and errors abound with them. :)

    However, some Trekkers love to just pretend that it's entirely consistent in spite of the evidence, much like how some people, when confronted by two mutually exclusive beliefs, will make up strange and esoteric rules as to why those beliefs are somehow compatible (or just ignore the dissonance between the two mutually exclusive statements).
    ).

    Some of the cognitive dissonance on the part of ST inconsistencies is actually coming up with explanation to reconcile them. If a reasonable explanation can be found fo to explain the inconsistencies they are no longer inconsistencies. Perhaps THE biggest inconsistency has been the drastic change in appearance of Klingons from TOS to the TMP. No (in story) explanation was given for the change. They didn't touch the matter until the DS9 episode "Trials and Tribbulation" when t hey at least acknowledged both appearances were correct. And the inconsistency was resolved canonically.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    fuzun wrote: »
    Some of the cognitive dissonance on the part of ST inconsistencies is actually coming up with explanation to reconcile them. If a reasonable explanation can be found fo to explain the inconsistencies they are no longer inconsistencies. Perhaps THE biggest inconsistency has been the drastic change in appearance of Klingons from TOS to the TMP. No (in story) explanation was given for the change. They didn't touch the matter until the DS9 episode "Trials and Tribbulation" when t hey at least acknowledged both appearances were correct. And the inconsistency was resolved canonically.
    That's the thing, resolving an inconsistency isn't the same as cognitive dissonance. :) Cognitive dissonance only applies to two mutually exclusive beliefs (i.e. beliefs that cannot take place at once) being held true by an individual.

    A great example comes from my first university, a private religious school. Let's just same the archeology professors had some interesting cog dis with regards to what they taught on Friday (from the science texts they helped author/review) contradicting what they taught on Sunday (which came from their religion's texts). They were genuinely passionate about both subjects and were quite earnest about both when surrounded only by those who shared that particular day's belief.

    Another example might be the family of serial killer. Some families will insist the individual is a "good person" and "kind" when the evidence is virtually cut-and-dry. - or even after witnessing the brutality of the individual in question. Cog dis has something interesting evolutionary reasons as to why it helps some people survive and work better in communities (and thereby survive longer to procreate).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010

    Think of conspiracy theorists, who in spite of tons of evidence, will find ways to hand-wave and explain everything to confirm their bias (like "Elvis is Alive" conspiracy theorists) and reconcile two incompatible beliefs.

    ELVIS IS DEAD?!?!!! When did this happen?!

    :p

    *ahem* On topic...

    I'm one of those geeks that went out immediately after seeing the date to see if it lined up with any "historic events" that might be a clue to the next Devidian episode, but the only thing that really lines up is the start of Kirks five year mission.

    That may actually be the clue. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

    I also happened to notice that the computers in the computer core had a distinctive "TOS" Era look to them and got all kinda excited about it. But that's probably just me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I think the uniforms are fine, to go back on the topic of whether the uniforms fit the mission.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    what the heck...i think some of you failed at watching the Old TV series...and failed at your trek knowledge by..ALOT!!

    Even in the Episode of the Cage with CHristopher Pike they had Replicators.

    I mean does anyone remember them going and eating?

    The difference was that they had to program the instructions onto cards so they could get their food.

    Also its how they got their weapons and equipmnet mostly.

    And as Zephron Cocheron had said when he was found a few hundred years later on that planet with the Companion.....he had the shuttle and the Replicator so he could survive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Well, to me it's just fine, no matter what look the uniforms have. The whole story is done nicely and I think the authors have to have some freedom on developing stories like that. It's a game in a "fun" universe and I had a lot of fun and a little scare. Sure it would be nice to have the "Cage" uniforms in or better to have different ranks on the "Khan" uniform, but it's a game and there are more important things than those things that matter to a few. Still we have to remember, that the game will only have things added that matter to the greater part of the gamers. That's what keeps games alive and I am more than willing to just enjoy the stuff we get, instead of thinking what would be wrong in my eyes.
    Hey, did you ever think why the Starfleet officers that hail you have different uniforms (different colours and styles)? Ignore things like that and the fun will be even greater :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    fuzun wrote: »
    Resistance is futile. :D

    Size is irrelevant. I just want a nice looking TOS bridge with authentic sounds. I could chill in the Captain's chair for quite some time enjoying that (like Scotty in Relics :D )
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Are we going to need our Connie for this mission? Or does the ship not really matter in this one? Too bad we don't get TOS Phaser II's to equip our toons.... :( would have made for a great episode reward!
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