Because those shipyards wouldn't neccessarily stop producing ships for their own race just because they're members of the Federation... and likely, the new ships being produced by those racially owned shipyards would probably be appropriated and refit for starfleet use during times of war.
if someone else wants to play in a vulcan ship, (as you can guess from my avatar, im one of them) why is it any skin of your nose. just pretend its some random science ship flying past you with a vulcan crew aboard.
or that starfleet have decided to include new ship designs. not every new ship has to have a saucer and two warp nacelles. starfleet ships have been based off earth designs for 300 odd years, there is no reason they cant build starfleet ships based off vulcan or andorian designs.
The one side says that it doesn't make sense for these powers to have their own Starfleet-grade militaries. If they have any it would likely be purely a defense force.
The other side is full of crazies and people who enjoy being wrong.
It's clear all the way back to the Task Force Hippocrates mission in the game that the Vulcans have a capable space fleet independent of Starfleet. Also as an FYI, the D'Kyre class replaces the Vulcan ship in that mission. The dev's posted a screenshot of it here.
Someone tell me why we need to have our Starfleet characters flying around on vulcan or andorian or tellarite ships?
Same reason for why the TOS-Connie, the Galaxy-X and the NX are or will get into the game. Yes, it doesn't make sense and hurts the consistency of the setting, but it is considered to be "fun" so there we go.
Imo, the Vulcan/Andorian ships would be better suited for a new "Independent" faction where people can play traders, smugglers or associates of individual planetary governments, but ... ah well. Of course it was easier this way.
That said, the Vulcan ship does look awesome. Kudos to the art team. Props where props are due.
I'm sure they have capable fleets. The issue here is that...
1) I highly doubt they'd be as combat ready as Starfleet ships. I've given CANON proof but people just ignore it (Fat Ferengi in canon saying the Vulcans have no powerful ships and that's just one proof).
2) There are confirmed defense forces but defense forces wouldn't be in Starfleet. Plus the only defense forces we've seen on screen were pathetic (and they were EARTH'S! The capital of the Federation!).
Basically the fleets of these powers would not be purely defensive and scientific forces. They wouldn't belong in Starfleet. They might explore but that doesn't mean they'd be as capable as a Galaxy-class at it. Think of them as civilian expeditions of today, not exactly combat ready but they can still do a lot of exploring, scientific research and be real useful!
I could see Starfleet working with some of these ships from time to time. Probably on exploration and scientific missions. However, again, they wouldn't be a part of Starfleet. You play Starfleet in this game!
Once again...
NOT in Starfleet.
NOT exactly the most powerful ships around.
NOT used for combat outside of defense.
I honestly doubt the 150+ species that make up the Federation all gave up their warships on the off chance that a Federation ship can arrive in a week or two to help them out if they're in trouble. The Federation is like the United Nations not the United States. Each planet is still it's own governing system with its own enemies which they need to defend themselves from. And while I agree the Vulcans probably wouldn't be known for making good "warships" I bet they make some of the best science ships in the Federation; and I bet the aggressive Andorians can put out a nice warship.
Sure, but then you'd play a Captain of the Vulcan National Mercantile Fleet or the Andorian Imperial Guard. And not a Starfleet officer. It's that simple. Starfleet only uses Starfleet ships. Anything else may be an ally, but not a part.
Sure, but then you'd play a Captain of the Vulcan National Mercantile Fleet or the Andorian Imperial Guard. And not a Starfleet officer. It's that simple. Starfleet only uses Starfleet ships. Anything else may be an ally, but not a part.
In case you missed it, Dstahl's already posting about possibly allowing people to make custom ships in the future. The idea that STO is following hard canon was gone the moment you started flying a 100+ year old Miranda. STO is its own soft canon universe where people can fly Vulcan and Andorian ships.
This seems like yet another case of: "You should be having fun on my terms"
Then when I read some of the more...descriptive arguments behind why we all need to conform to a strict canon-centric playstyle, I start to wonder if folks realize that Star Trek isn't real to begin with.
We shouldn't give up on canon just because it's failed in this game so far (regarding ships and other customization options mostly). They should redouble their efforts!
Or, some can understand that only the smallest percentage of the fan-base are canon-jockeys and the rest of the people are just here to play a Star Trek themed game rather then a Star Trek canon game.
This seems like yet another case of: "You should be having fun on my terms"
Then when I read some of the more...descriptive arguments behind why we all need to conform to a strict canon-centric playstyle, I start to wonder if folks realize that Star Trek isn't real to begin with.
It IS a case of "You should be having fun on my terms!"... The terms being crazies who want to take the Trek out of Star Trek and just make this game a canon-ignoring thing called "Star". Your terms of ignoring what this game is based off of suck.
The idea that STO is following hard canon was gone the moment you started flying a 100+ year old Miranda.
Actually, Mirandas were still being commissioned during the Dominion War. It's an old design, but the ships themselves are merely four decades old. IF Starfleet stopped building them at that time.
Then when I read some of the more...descriptive arguments behind why we all need to conform to a strict canon-centric playstyle, I start to wonder if folks realize that Star Trek isn't real to begin with.
The game was advertised as being Star Trek, was it not? I just like to play in the setting I've grown to like from the shows, that's all.
And yet again, I point out the likely scenario of appropriation of civilian hardware and refitting it up to starfleet specs. As long as the spaceframe of the ship in question is sufficient for the job then it would be more efficient to refit that ship with modern military equipment than to build a new ship from scratch. :rolleyes:
If they did not do it in the Dominion War, I fail to see why they would do it now. Refitting is also way more difficult than you might imagine. The 1701 was in drydock several months only for the TMP-Refit. That, and Starfleet personnel is not trained to operate and repair non-Starfleet issue technology. Just look at the problems they had with DS9.
It's a good excuse (and one I will try to remember when encountering one such ship), but it still doesn't make it less silly.
If they did not do it in the Dominion War, I fail to see why they would do it now. Refitting is also way more difficult than you might imagine. The 1701 was in drydock several months only for the TMP-Refit. That, and Starfleet personnel is not trained to operate and repair non-Starfleet issue technology. Just look at the problems they had with DS9.
It's a good excuse (and one I will try to remember when encountering one such ship), but it still doesn't make it less silly.
Ah, but here's the thing... Unlike DS9, where the technology was from a completely different source (Cardassian design, built by Bajorans), Vulcans and Andorians have been part of the Federation from the beginning. It is likely that these races have both influenced, and been influenced by Starfleet tech. It is likely that "modern" versions of these ships use earlier iterations/less powerful versions of Starfleet equipment, making the ships easier to refit.
The time it takes to refit is certainly a factor... but bear in mind the fact that it will take just as long, if not longer to build a new space frame, and it will cost more resources than using something that you already have on hand.
Hm. Good points. But the Dominion War argument still stands.
And lastly, even if you leave out the canon, it is also a matter of style. Starfleet has always been Starfleet. It just feels wrong to see this change. In a way, it's like the "theme park ambience" that already exists in the characters (see ESD) expanding into space. Makes you think how long it'll be until people fly Borg Spheres.
We have discussed this internally and there are some varying viewpoints and opinions just as much as are represented in this forum.
For the most part it boils down to fun and roleplaying and the fact that these ships can be considered part of the Federation (even though they aren't specifically Starfleet).
However - we have talked about the possibility of opening up "sub-factions" to represent other members within the Federation... i.e. you can create a Vulcan that starts on Vulcan and has a Vulcan version of Quinn who sends you to do the same Starfleet missions - however with a Vulcan slant. etc... but that is a big pie in the sky right now.
*shrugs* Surprised dstahl haven't closed this thread like he had with the enigeering report regarding the debate between having the Vulcan/Andorian/NX ships being present in STO....really all point is moot as the matter of when they show up in game and not "if".
Kinda funny to see this thread like others that doesn't really go anywhere really just like the NX ones. Just find it amusing to see people go at it......:p
Hm. Good points. But the Dominion War argument still stands.
Not quite. Basically I see this as the Federation having a rather large amount of old, decomissioned Excelsior and Miranda (+variants) class ships lying around that they could reactivate. However, as the war went on we began to see more and more of what are "affectionately" known as kitbashes. Granted, on screen they were most often in the background, letting the more well know ships set the stage, but they were there. May I point out Ex Atris Scientia's article on the DS9 kitbashes here. Heck, even the Centaur Class, one of the Miranda variants we have available at Ensign is a kitbash. It isn't inconcievable (especially after looking at the hideous Yeager Class) that had the war lasted any longer that the federation would have started drafting and refitting civilian ships into the fleet (if they hadn't started doing so already off screen).
And lastly, even if you leave out the canon, it is also a matter of style. Starfleet has always been Starfleet. It just feels wrong to see this change. In a way, it's like the "theme park ambience" that already exists in the characters (see ESD) expanding into space. Makes you think how long it'll be until people fly Borg Spheres.
Style becomes less important when you're losing ships faster than you can build them and as long as we don't start seeing non-federation member ships appearing in the lists of playable ships, I'm not too worried... the moment that a Borg sphere, Jem Hadar fighter, or Kazon Battlecruiser looks like it's going to be added to Starfleet's ranks, then I'll be right there with you, decrying the addition. Though if the Borg were added as a playable faction, sign me up for one of those spheres and resistance will be futile
We have discussed this internally and there are some varying viewpoints and opinions just as much as are represented in this forum.
For the most part it boils down to fun and roleplaying and the fact that these ships can be considered part of the Federation (even though they aren't specifically Starfleet).
However - we have talked about the possibility of opening up "sub-factions" to represent other members within the Federation... i.e. you can create a Vulcan that starts on Vulcan and has a Vulcan version of Quinn who sends you to do the same Starfleet missions - however with a Vulcan slant. etc... but that is a big pie in the sky right now.
Nice idea. As for the people raising a stink over the there not Starfleet ships. Even if a planet is in the Federation they are alowed to have there own ships to protect there own planets. Sure they might not be a high tec as the ships of the main line, but they can still be around.
Someone tell me why we need to have our Starfleet characters flying around on vulcan or andorian or tellarite ships?
I could understand if you were playing a non starfleet character but the only fed side characters you can make are starfleet characters.
And I don't include people who pretend they are not in starfleet, cause yeah ya are!!!
None of us are in Starfleet.
Starfleet wouldent make us buy our own ships.
Starfleet wouldent make us buy our own weapons and defenses.
Starfleet wouldent just promote everyone to a rank status so they could fly a ship.
Face it this Starfleet also brought into play Kirks old connie, the excel and soon probably the NX. These guys are desperate to fill out their forces so why the heck would anyone even so much as bat an eye at a Vulcan ship being in the fleet?
Comments
or that starfleet have decided to include new ship designs. not every new ship has to have a saucer and two warp nacelles. starfleet ships have been based off earth designs for 300 odd years, there is no reason they cant build starfleet ships based off vulcan or andorian designs.
The one side says that it doesn't make sense for these powers to have their own Starfleet-grade militaries. If they have any it would likely be purely a defense force.
The other side is full of crazies and people who enjoy being wrong.
Imo, the Vulcan/Andorian ships would be better suited for a new "Independent" faction where people can play traders, smugglers or associates of individual planetary governments, but ... ah well. Of course it was easier this way.
That said, the Vulcan ship does look awesome. Kudos to the art team. Props where props are due.
1) I highly doubt they'd be as combat ready as Starfleet ships. I've given CANON proof but people just ignore it (Fat Ferengi in canon saying the Vulcans have no powerful ships and that's just one proof).
2) There are confirmed defense forces but defense forces wouldn't be in Starfleet. Plus the only defense forces we've seen on screen were pathetic (and they were EARTH'S! The capital of the Federation!).
Basically the fleets of these powers would not be purely defensive and scientific forces. They wouldn't belong in Starfleet. They might explore but that doesn't mean they'd be as capable as a Galaxy-class at it. Think of them as civilian expeditions of today, not exactly combat ready but they can still do a lot of exploring, scientific research and be real useful!
I could see Starfleet working with some of these ships from time to time. Probably on exploration and scientific missions. However, again, they wouldn't be a part of Starfleet. You play Starfleet in this game!
Once again...
NOT in Starfleet.
NOT exactly the most powerful ships around.
NOT used for combat outside of defense.
Then when I read some of the more...descriptive arguments behind why we all need to conform to a strict canon-centric playstyle, I start to wonder if folks realize that Star Trek isn't real to begin with.
It IS a case of "You should be having fun on my terms!"... The terms being crazies who want to take the Trek out of Star Trek and just make this game a canon-ignoring thing called "Star". Your terms of ignoring what this game is based off of suck.
The game was advertised as being Star Trek, was it not? I just like to play in the setting I've grown to like from the shows, that's all.
It's a good excuse (and one I will try to remember when encountering one such ship), but it still doesn't make it less silly.
Ah, but here's the thing... Unlike DS9, where the technology was from a completely different source (Cardassian design, built by Bajorans), Vulcans and Andorians have been part of the Federation from the beginning. It is likely that these races have both influenced, and been influenced by Starfleet tech. It is likely that "modern" versions of these ships use earlier iterations/less powerful versions of Starfleet equipment, making the ships easier to refit.
The time it takes to refit is certainly a factor... but bear in mind the fact that it will take just as long, if not longer to build a new space frame, and it will cost more resources than using something that you already have on hand.
Exactly.
And lastly, even if you leave out the canon, it is also a matter of style. Starfleet has always been Starfleet. It just feels wrong to see this change. In a way, it's like the "theme park ambience" that already exists in the characters (see ESD) expanding into space. Makes you think how long it'll be until people fly Borg Spheres.
For the most part it boils down to fun and roleplaying and the fact that these ships can be considered part of the Federation (even though they aren't specifically Starfleet).
However - we have talked about the possibility of opening up "sub-factions" to represent other members within the Federation... i.e. you can create a Vulcan that starts on Vulcan and has a Vulcan version of Quinn who sends you to do the same Starfleet missions - however with a Vulcan slant. etc... but that is a big pie in the sky right now.
Kinda funny to see this thread like others that doesn't really go anywhere really just like the NX ones. Just find it amusing to see people go at it......:p
Not quite. Basically I see this as the Federation having a rather large amount of old, decomissioned Excelsior and Miranda (+variants) class ships lying around that they could reactivate. However, as the war went on we began to see more and more of what are "affectionately" known as kitbashes. Granted, on screen they were most often in the background, letting the more well know ships set the stage, but they were there. May I point out Ex Atris Scientia's article on the DS9 kitbashes here. Heck, even the Centaur Class, one of the Miranda variants we have available at Ensign is a kitbash. It isn't inconcievable (especially after looking at the hideous Yeager Class) that had the war lasted any longer that the federation would have started drafting and refitting civilian ships into the fleet (if they hadn't started doing so already off screen).
Style becomes less important when you're losing ships faster than you can build them
Nice idea. As for the people raising a stink over the there not Starfleet ships. Even if a planet is in the Federation they are alowed to have there own ships to protect there own planets. Sure they might not be a high tec as the ships of the main line, but they can still be around.
None of us are in Starfleet.
Starfleet wouldent make us buy our own ships.
Starfleet wouldent make us buy our own weapons and defenses.
Starfleet wouldent just promote everyone to a rank status so they could fly a ship.
Face it this Starfleet also brought into play Kirks old connie, the excel and soon probably the NX. These guys are desperate to fill out their forces so why the heck would anyone even so much as bat an eye at a Vulcan ship being in the fleet?