PUG vs PUG, klinks are at an advantage, it is obvious from how many times I win on klink side compared to fed. The only way to level the playing field is to find people you work well with, and go in with them.
Nobody I know of is disputing that in pugs the KDF players tend to have the upperhand. I think the dispute is over wiether its because of a easier ability to team and work together due to repetitveness and pratice or if it is a designed advantage in the makeup of KDF ships. I believe the former is the truth, Klingons just seem to play together more often and have become praticed at pugging pvp.
Feds are often quite poor (very poor) at team work. The best way to win consistently, is to have a pre-made team of people who are going to work together.
But god forbid you pug it against a carrier team. That **** is just unfair.
PUG vs PUG, klinks are at an advantage, it is obvious from how many times I win on klink side compared to fed. The only way to level the playing field is to find people you work well with, and go in with them.
And ALWAYS, ALWAYS join a team.
The amount of matches I have joined with people either declining, ignoring, or having teams turned off is disgusting. Worse is, that if I don't invite people to team, more often than not there is no team.
To be fair, it's not that fed pilots can't understand proper teamwork. We're all the same people, fed or klink. It's just that this game has (by comparison) a lot more solo friendly pve scenarios for feds.
We do need more content overall, but the feds have loads of pve missions they have access to, whereas klingons have PvP or grind boring "kill/scan 5 of x" missions.
The PvE conditioning of most new fed captains leave them totally unprepared for the harsh reality of pvp.
i think in the beginning many fed players pvp'd to experience it, the kdf played to win. If winning meant throwing out heals to team mates you did it. Over time this lead to the idea that at certain tiers the kdf were so unbalanced it was impossible to win and a great many bought into this myth. Some Good fleets tried to dispell this myth but were either considered greater players than ordinary people, or that only happens in t5/6 with a premade. I can assure you that as individual players they were not better than most, had no super skills or hacks they just worked very well as a group.
This myth still seems to exist, the kdf can be and have been soundly beaten in all tiers by fed pugs who want to win enough to work together. I can remember at commander lvl on my fed after a 15-0 win one fed player honestly believed the kdf could not be beaten at that lvl.
Earlier today i was grp'd with a single guildie on the kdf side, we ran into a grp in the arena, they worked really well together it was a long match, ok we won but not by much and it could have gone the other way. At first i thought they might be a premade, as tbh you just don't often see that lvl of coordinated supportive play from fed pugs, but equally they might have been a pug with a few players that know what it takes to win a match.
I also find myself buying into the myth at times, when puggin on my kdf i expect to win (unless i run ito a grp or half grp from -tsi-), when puggin on my fed i hope to win but do not expect it as much as when on my kdf, that is not about my skill, or the ship, it is about my expectations of the players i will end up grouped with, i expect the kdf to do thier job, i hope some of the feds will do their job, on a fed i also hold back supportive heals incase i need them, on my bop i throw them out like sweets because i have less worries about not getting heals if i need them.
I find that on my escourt with no heals to throw out i lose 60 to 70%% of the time in arena matchs Now switch it to my Eng who is set up with just healing nothing else i lose 25% of the time depends on the pug i get in with but just one healer on the team makes a huge diffrance. Even if you only have two heals dont save them for when someone starts shooting at you give it to the person that is getting hit now.
Feds are often quite poor (very poor) at team work. The best way to win consistently, is to have a pre-made team of people who are going to work together.
But god forbid you pug it against a carrier team. That **** is just unfair.
PUG vs PUG, klinks are at an advantage, it is obvious from how many times I win on klink side compared to fed. The only way to level the playing field is to find people you work well with, and go in with them.
And ALWAYS, ALWAYS join a team.
The amount of matches I have joined with people either declining, ignoring, or having teams turned off is disgusting. Worse is, that if I don't invite people to team, more often than not there is no team.
People not teaming is a pet peeve of mine. I *think* that most of the people doing that are wanting to AFK though. They decline the team then rush off to get killed first so they can respawn and park where no one sees them or something. I don't know that for certain since I don't follow those guys around, but it seems that way given their contributions by the end of the match.
As others have said, *everyone* needs to heal. Even just throwing Tac team on a buddy who's got debuffs on him is a big help. Saving your heals for yourself is almost always worse than saving your buddy so your buddy can save you later.
I normally still have good luck against Klingon PUGs that have fewer than 2 carriers. Groups of several carriers still mess me up enough that I'm pretty sure PUG groups just can't handle large numbers of carriers. There are some tactics which work well against carriers, but coordinating well enough to handle 3 or 4 of them is just more than you can do in a PUG using text chat. it's nothing as simple as "stay within 10km for healing".
The simple solution is to just do FvF. Those queues pop faster anyway. I normally do FvK because I hate dealing with the longer queues on the Klingon side, so I'm trying to shorten the queues for other Klingon players, but when I get stuck facing nothing but carrier teams it's helpful to stay away from FvK for a while.
They do this hit and run TRIBBLE that draws out a match far too long, and doesn't allow any action on the fed side other than dying.
They swoop in, pop 1 or 2 in the first strike, then run away and regroup. If all klinks did these tactics, which are wildly successful, PVP would be totally futile.
Greetings,
It is incumbent upon every warrior to only allow the useless actions of an enemy. While allowing useless actions and prohibiting useful ones, He arrives at the place of Victory, which is the birthright of true Warriors, who honorably apply The Way.
I submit to you that it is not our tactical doctrine that needs revising but the Federation's, with their extremely limited passive tactics, typified by the ignominious FedBall.
The slightest deviation from the Way early on will lead to a larger deviation later, this is unfortunately all too common. I have observed Federation captains on the lower tiers develop their inferior tactics, they are far from the Way and are bereft of discernment.
I quoted you because you so clearly stated *exactly* why we use our tactics 1) they are successful and 2) they only allow the enemy to die.
Anything else is jousting, and there are other games and mmos for that.
Fair never enters into the mind of a Warrior, only Killing the Enemy. I daresay you have been watching too many holovids, fair, even or "balanced" fights are a sure indication that BOTH sides were incompetent. There will be enough stochastic factors to make the battle interesting enough without help beforehand based on some archaic ideology.
"War is our imperative, so we fight" said an inspirational figure from Earth's ancient fiction. When we engage in War (PvP) we are not there to be kind, gentlemanly or in any way fair, we are there to KILL YOU. While we have good relations with the true warriors of STO on both sides, they always know that when they fight against us it will tax them, on every level. Come prepared or go back to playing FvF (Female vs Female). It is only through the fullest application of the Way of the Warrior that a Warrior knows himself.
When you see these things as good, and the Right Path, your eyes will be open to the shining horizon of the East, your very soul will be reinvigorated and a new day of excellence will dawn, heralding Victory and the joyous bubbling laughter of the women welcoming you home after battle!
Yours in Imperative War Plasma,
Star*Dagger
Relevant text:
"Timing in strategy:
There is timing in everything. Timing in strategy cannot be mastered without a great deal of practice.
Timing is important in dancing and pipe or string music, for they are in rhythm only if timing is good. Timing and rhythm are also involved in the military arts, shooting bows and guns, and riding horses. In all skills and abilities there is timing.
There is also timing in the Void.
There is timing in the whole life of the warrior, in his thriving and declining, in his harmony and discord. Similarly, there is timing in the Way of the merchant, in the rise and fall of capital. All things entail rising and falling timing. You must be able to discern this. In strategy there are various timing considerations.
From the outset you must know the applicable timing and the inapplicable timing, and from among the large and small things and the fast and slow timings find the relevant timing, first seeing the distance timing and the background timing. This is the main thing in strategy. It is especially important to know the background timing, otherwise your strategy will become uncertain.
You win in battles with the timing in the Void born of the timing of cunning by knowing the enemies' timing, and this using a timing which the enemy does not expect.
All the five books are chiefly concerned with timing. You must train sufficiently to appreciate all this. "
~Ground Book, A Book of Five Rings, Musashi
The point of this is a game. It should be enteraining on both sides. What you do takes any fun out of PVP. There's no other tactic for us, unless you have any suggestions. The only way I've been able to make a dent with you guys is when we tandem tractors and get you guys stuck using whatever we can. Even if we put up a decent effort, 30+ plus long matches with you swoop in and run the moment we can do anything makes me leave. Immediately. You don't get the satisfaction of the kill.
What you will end up with is nobody who wants to play with you, and you having to go back to reality.
- Beware of chasing Klingons. It could be an ambush, so only chase them when it's clear they're very hurt, and you have a way to counter their cloak (say by disabling it before ), and their speed. Sometimes staying in and changing targets to the remaining targets, which are now weaker in numbers, is the smarter thing to do.
That, half the time I run I'm doing it in hopes someone will chase me because I know in most cases I'll be able to take them down 1 on 1 and if that plan isn't work (ie I'm dying 1 on 1) I know I'll be able to get away again (hello chronitons) and cloak out of range
Been in about 10 pvp arena matches the last two days. Playing Fedside. Vice Admiral. They seem incredibly one sided... the Klingons say "Oh well, we are just a million times better than you..." which could be true, I admit. In those 10 games... 7 came out to 1/15, 2 where 0/15 and the remaining was the star of the show at 2/15. Utterly brutal, short, nasty little games that where entirely pointless and not the slightest bit of a "good game". A "good game" is where there is an actual fight, with victory at least being challenged.
I've not seen anything close to that, I've just seen Feds effortlessly get blown up. No 'gg'.
Now, here are a few things I'd be willing to admit. I see a lot of Fed players do things that strike me counter-productive to life, such as the escorts flying off the handle first thing and charging into the Klingons groups, and die instantly. Or Cruisers full-impulsing right into a similar mob with predictable results. But I've also been in groups where we Feds did more or less stick together and the results where the same anyway.
I, personally, generally don't die a whole lot. But I think I've only ever gotten a single kill in a match and most matches my guns never penetrate enemy shields. But at least I'm not greatly contributing to the enemy kill count...
So I guess I'm asking Federation players specifically, I assume that at least some Fed pvpers get kills and win matches.. how? Do you just never play in anything but a pre-made group? Something else?
here my opinion on this ....(my 2 cents per se)
There are apparently some well organzied pre-made fed teams again apparently out there i have not seen them as of yet, but they are out there . I have played with PvP over 100s and 100s of times even 1000s (space Cap and holds, space areans) of times now but yet I cant help but notice the same thing you have.
8/10 the klinks are winning, although my score is pretty positive on most events i enter i have sometimes had problems with my team-mates not comprehending the situation to well. I live for battle, i love battle, but after levelling my first tact to LG1 in klink faction I just could not figure out why I was not as effective in battle in a fed ship as i was in my klink ship. Klinks ships superior manuverability gives them that edge where they can out turn any fed ship and there by bring their main cannons up front to bear on a fed ship, minus the carrier of course.
It boggled my mind, i was owning with my klink toon then suddenly i turn fed and i suck? I did a detailed compare and contrast between my setups and they were almost identical yet on the klink side i was more effective killer than on the fed side. I completely to the fed side since i was always up for the challenge. I even went into one pvp with a very decent team to fight another klink team and we lost 11-15. I remember that battle quite well it was very well fought and my team was on ball with healing and everything was going great as far as team work and focus fire were concerned ..yet we lost :S
After this i went back to the klink side and there it was again, i was more of an effective killer with klink team-mates who were no where near as good as the team i flew with on the fed side when we lost 11-15. So that scrapped team argument, there is something else here that I was unable to put my finger on.
Some klinks will be arrogant "we are superior fighters and such" "feds are grown up on pve..etc..etc"
"we are warriors, we goto battle to kill, nothing else is important..etc..etc." "yall are all bad pilots on the fed side" and such. I am not sold on that argument after playing as much PvP as i have you start realizing certain things. Tactics and strat are only as good as the people you are flying with in a team setup but yet the fed team i played with when we lost 11-15 was way better than the klink teams i was playing and we still kicked butt as klink..
I did another test, I asked one of my friends who was a LT.COM klink to bring out this BOP which was 5 levels lower than my LT.COM tactical escort ship on the fed side. We did a 1v1 ..i lost 5-2 but the most amazing part of this was our set ups were almost identical in exception of his front cannons being a little bit less powerful than my dual heavies and at the end i out healed him and I out damaged him yet I lost 5-2, it was one long drawn out battle btw. Then i noticed it, the klink ship was able to bear its weapons far more quicker on my escort than i was able to bear my fore weapons on him. So although my fore weapons were more powerful than his which showed in me out damaging him with just the few hits i got on him all his damage was focused more on my shields and my hull. Also their cruisers can mount cannons which our cruisers cant, have you seen the DPS that can be out put with dual heavies and rapid fire, its scary really.
Put this in a team perspective and it maginifies this advantage even more, their main cannons and most powerful guns are always bought to bear on fed ships faster than a fed ship can on theirs. Most fed cruisers cant mount cannons so that puts us quite bit lower on damage perspective add to this fed cruisers cant turn to save their lives and fed escorts do not turn as well as a BOP or raptors can. So now fed ships in a team setup are hard pressed to use up its heals and buffs to stay alive and eventually hit the CD wall quicker than most klink captains, while most of the klinks can save their spells until they are really in trouble which if they play properly they really are not as much trouble as the fed ship captains. Add to this Simple manuevring and weapon setup advantage the universal BO slots which they have they can do on the fly customization of what they want to use to counter a fed ship skills.
Now with the new patch there has been a big controversy coming up with the carrier which has become quite strong IMHO. I am not going to go into that, but theres always the little argument of strength in numbers the new klink carriers are true a testament to that. They are able to launch 30 bops or 90 Fighters if and when need be doing a good bit of damage added with their massive tanking and support capability. Couple this strength in numbers with the afore mentioned ability of the klink ships to bear their most powerful guns on to fed cruisers/escorts faster, it becomes a no brainer as to why I was killing a TRIBBLE load of ships in my LG1 klink and felt so proud of myself and then I come to the fed side and I feel weak and pathetic in a PvP situation scratching my head as to what I am doing wrong no matter how good my build is.
I did another test, I asked one of my friends who was a LT.COM klink to bring out this BOP which was 5 levels lower than my LT.COM tactical escort ship on the fed side. We did a 1v1 ..i lost 5-2 but the most amazing part of this was our set ups were almost identical in exception of his front cannons being a little bit less powerful than my dual heavies and at the end i out healed him and I out damaged him yet I lost 5-2, it was one long drawn out battle btw. Then i noticed it, the klink ship was able to bear its weapons far more quicker on my escort than i was able to bear my fore weapons on him. So although my fore weapons were more powerful than his which showed in me out damaging him with just the few hits i got on him all his damage was focused more on my shields and my hull. Also their cruisers can mount cannons which our cruisers cant, have you seen the DPS that can be out put with dual heavies and rapid fire, its scary really.
I won't belittle anything you said you had a few valid observations in there. I quoted this part for one reason. This points to the main issue many feds have with PvP in general. I will agree that klink ship layouts and tactics are easier to grasp for basic level players. Therefore low level klinks will out perform low-medium level fed teams... no doubt there. Now here is the part your missing. BURST... your damage HAS to be bursty to kill. The score board damage numbers mean NOTHING. In a PERFECT 15 to 0 match against all escorts the TOTAL team damage should not exceed aprox 525k (For all 5 ships.. 105k each) Now that isn't possible of course... but thats the point... a perfect kill should take 32-50k in damage depending on the ship type.
Now ask what is your ships burst strategy... you could use BOL with a HY combo. You could go cannons with a hy combo. You can go all cannons with a HARD debuff factor. Bottom line is however you do it you need to BURST to break through healing. Cannons on a cruiser are almost useless and most klink cruiser pilots don't use them... however your right they are more Bursty then beams (with out overload)
Your burst plan can also include skills like Aux to Damp... this will allow you to Spin on a dime and get that facing again. (you WILL out turn a bop with aux to damp on) Perhaps thats a better idea then that second emergency power to shield junk.
Most klink ships (AKA the BOP) are very squishy really. If you can drop a shield facing one round of torps will do the job.
I won't ramble... point is more fed need to PLAN how they intend to kill. Most don't have a problem planning a bunch of ways to prolong the engagement... instead start planning to end it.
The point of this is a game. It should be enteraining on both sides. What you do takes any fun out of PVP.
But if you demand from the "hardcore" PvPers to hold back and "play fair" - they're not entertained. They want to fly to the fullest, min-max their ships to the best, outwit, outmaneuver, outdamange and outheal their opponents, or at least die trying. If you'd take that away, you take away their "entertainment value".
Some PvPers might be just in to steamroll the opposition. But others are there because they want to find the best solutions, the most effectice builds, the most succesful tactics and strategies. They can't do that by "holding back" just in case someone isn't up to the task or because it might be a 15:0 or 1,200:0 overkill that hurts someone's feeling.
The only advice I can give, when it comes to either KVF or FVF, is simple and to the point..
Know your enemy. Then Know yourself.
Not only do you want to know the strengths and weaknesses of the ships your fighting against. But you must also be aware of the capabilities of the Captains your fighting against.
That's a Sci/Escort you say? Watch for SNBs and fast Alpha strikes.
Engi/Cruiser? Probably the healer. If you can debuff his heals, or distract him, great.
Tactical/Sci? Sure he will be able to do a lot of damage, but he won't be able to find cloakers as good as a Sci/Sci.
Best thing to do, is not only have high level characters on both sides, but make sure to fly every ship if possible. You don't have to have every class to max level, as long as you know what they will do against you. And how to defend against it.
Next make sure your familiarize your self with each BO power and how your ships, and class abilities affect them.
Do what works for YOU. If being a healer and keeping people alive is fun for you, then do that. If debuffing, and weakening enemies for the heavy hitters is your cup of tea, do that! And if watching some one blow up to your heaviest hitting weapons is what you crave, then do it.
Nothing beats experience. Playing in the PVP matches day in an day out, will show you many things. And the only way to learn those things is not from reading a forum post. But from actually partaking in the sweet feeling of flying a ship in space, and surviving 5v1 alphas because you had that good team that just clicked.
And finally, know what your ships your flying, and what your flying against, can't do. And know how they are doing what ever they are doing to survive, and try to have a way to counter it. If you can't quite figure it out. ASK. Sure I might not be desiring to explain what my tactics are, but if your nice, and you seriously want to find out in order to improve, I might be able to give you the advice you need, provided I know how best to explain it.
escorts do not turn as well as a BOP or raptors can. .
The refit has a better turn rate (same inertia though) than a raptor and a fleet escort is the same as a raptor in turn and inertia. The advanced escort has the same turn and 10 extra inertia.
To be fair, it's not that fed pilots can't understand proper teamwork. We're all the same people, fed or klink. It's just that this game has (by comparison) a lot more solo friendly pve scenarios for feds.
We do need more content overall, but the feds have loads of pve missions they have access to, whereas klingons have PvP or grind boring "kill/scan 5 of x" missions.
The PvE conditioning of most new fed captains leave them totally unprepared for the harsh reality of pvp.
While I would agree that all klinks have feds, it is not necessarily true that all feds roll klinks. I know people who have no interest in it, or rarely if ever play their klinks. Many feds seem more interested in the emblems than actually winning. I even had one tell me in an FvF that there "is no winning, I still get emblems". That is a typical attitude it seems. No wonder so many suck.
It's a shame many feds seem to have little active interest in actually being good at PvP, it would make it far more entertaining.
Nobody I know of is disputing that in pugs the KDF players tend to have the upperhand. I think the dispute is over wiether its because of a easier ability to team and work together due to repetitveness and pratice or if it is a designed advantage in the makeup of KDF ships. I believe the former is the truth, Klingons just seem to play together more often and have become praticed at pugging pvp.
I have not played klink side since the carrier patch, but from my experience, it was a rare occurrence when the team is not 100% cloaked. We can approach our targets unmolested and wait to see who others are targeting, and then attack. This is, without a doubt, a tactical advantage.
I am not going to argue that the ships themselves are OP'd, as I do not believe they are, it is simply that there is a deference that allows klinks to pug PVP for more easily. I have been in many non-teams with zero communication between one another on klink side where we just roast feds because of this. The first couple kills can set the pace of a game.
Obviously this changes with the carrier groups as most are visible, barring the use of MES, but carriers are a whole other issue for PUGS. They just dont encounter anything like it PVE fed side. For that reason they are at a disadvantage, and while that may not be due to the ships, it is due to the nature of the game.
Frankly fed side FvK gets tiresome because wins come too infrequently, while klink FvK gets tiresome because the wins are all too often too easy and there is no sense of challenge. Sure there are same faction PvP, but that kind of defeats the purpose to my mind.
I did another test, I asked one of my friends who was a LT.COM klink to bring out this BOP which was 5 levels lower than my LT.COM tactical escort ship on the fed side. We did a 1v1 ..i lost 5-2 but the most amazing part of this was our set ups were almost identical in exception of his front cannons being a little bit less powerful than my dual heavies and at the end i out healed him and I out damaged him yet I lost 5-2
I was part of a similiar experience with a fleetmate just a few days ago. He brought his T4 BoP and I my T5. We met in a 1vs1 challenge to test his build and he beat me 3/2 in matches. I was able to outheal him and he was able to outdammage me. SO whats that say? Different builds, different players, this is what mnakes the difference? Just for giggles he went and got his Capped fed science and we tried that out, except this time he beat me 4/1 in matches and he did it easily. Its the player then the ship, then what equipment is own said ship, and there is no evidence the KDF has an advantage over the feds.
it becomes a no brainer as to why I was killing a TRIBBLE load of ships in my LG1 klink and felt so proud of myself and then I come to the fed side and I feel weak and pathetic in a PvP situation scratching my head as to what I am doing wrong no matter how good my build is.
You can't build a ship to compensate for the experience of a better player. I did LTC pvp in my science alt BoP yesterday and could not win (could barely kill anything) a match to save my life. Am I to assume that at LTC the feds have an advantage over the KDF? Or do I just put it down to bad build, bad equipment and a rusty set of skills at that level pvp?
One can have all the tests with a friend or complete strangers and the outcome will still be skewed to your belief that the KDF is designed to have an advantage over the feds in combat. Unless you can find two people of equal skill, all such tests have to be considered invalid because opposite results are too easy achieve and they show none of the signs of imbalance that you and your friend have seen. As long as opposite results can be achieved so easily, I don't see how your results can be seen as valid. Thus I feel the whole debate on "KDF OP-ness" as a matter of opinion over fact.
You can't build a ship to compensate for the experience of a better player. I did LTC pvp in my science alt BoP yesterday and could not win (could barely kill anything) a match to save my life. Am I to assume that at LTC the feds have an advantage over the KDF? Or do I just put it down to bad build, bad equipment and a rusty set of skills at that level pvp?
I would say yes, at that level the advantage clearly lies with the Federation. The majority of Klingons seemed to have the BoP at this level but BoP's dont yet have the survivability to be that effective and the hit and run tactics dont work that well because you dont have the burst damage either. (This is wear those low hull and shield issues you guys love actually have importance, at the lower levels)
I played against you quite a bit yesterday and it was pretty much all about focus fire. (and transphasic breen mines ) The toughest games were when we went up against ships other than BoP's.
Ship capabilities have a lot more to do with this game than many of the people on this forum are prepared to admit, and at different levels the inherent advantages change. Lt, LtC and Cmd are heavily in favour of the Federation, Captain is probably the most balanced level with some great fights happening here, RA and VA are all about the Klingons. What the Dev's need to do is try and get all levels more like Captain level.
I would say yes, at that level the advantage clearly lies with the Federation. The majority of Klingons seemed to have the BoP at this level but BoP's dont yet have the survivability to be that effective and the hit and run tactics dont work that well because you dont have the burst damage either. (This is wear those low hull and shield issues you guys love actually have importance, at the lower levels)
THIS. At Lt. Cmdr, pvp was definately uphill in my BoP. I've less shields and about 1/2 the hull compared to cruisers.
However, at VA1 level and it's pug kling vs pug fed? "10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or more, the bloody red baron is runnin up the score!"
(No, I don't equate myself as one of the best, far from it. I'm quite noobish really That song just came to my mind.)
I would say yes, at that level the advantage clearly lies with the Federation.
My post was written in pure sarcasm, so wasn't expecting any answers or for it to be taken seriuosly.
I played against you quite a bit yesterday and it was pretty much all about focus fire. (and transphasic breen mines ) The toughest games were when we went up against ships other than BoP's.
It was a a beat down in the worst definition. We had no focus fire, I couldn't call targets to save my life and we just didn't use teamwork well. The GW's and TB's used against me surely wrecked my ability to pvp, not to mention my uber-horrible build (lol), but tyou feds did an awesome job of working together.
Ship capabilities have a lot more to do with this game than many of the people on this forum are prepared to admit, and at different levels the inherent advantages change. Lt, LtC and Cmd are heavily in favour of the Federation, Captain is probably the most balanced level with some great fights happening here, RA and VA are all about the Klingons. What the Dev's need to do is try and get all levels more like Captain level.
I agree that T4 is the best for pvp, but I doubt that the Dev's can make all ranks of pvp equal to it in playability (or if they should). My post was mainly to show how easy it would be for anyone to feel like they are being "OP-ed" in a match and to poke fun at the whole debate of OP when any advantage that does exist is due more to teamwork, build design and experience over any inherent advantages in the system.
and I was feeling somewhat sarcastic this morning.
I would say yes, at that level the advantage clearly lies with the Federation. The majority of Klingons seemed to have the BoP at this level but BoP's dont yet have the survivability to be that effective and the hit and run tactics dont work that well because you dont have the burst damage either. (This is wear those low hull and shield issues you guys love actually have importance, at the lower levels)
I played against you quite a bit yesterday and it was pretty much all about focus fire. (and transphasic breen mines ) The toughest games were when we went up against ships other than BoP's.
Ship capabilities have a lot more to do with this game than many of the people on this forum are prepared to admit, and at different levels the inherent advantages change. Lt, LtC and Cmd are heavily in favour of the Federation, Captain is probably the most balanced level with some great fights happening here, RA and VA are all about the Klingons. What the Dev's need to do is try and get all levels more like Captain level.
that last paragraph can also be attributed to the increasing amount of experience in speccing/equipping/utilizing ships specifically for PvP that the Klingons get a lot more exposure to.
the first ships i ever saw break 54K were Klingon ships, which made me work to get more than my normal 47K hull cruisers, so i spent a lot more time, C-Points, and respecs learning how they got their ship hulls that high while maintaining their tanking abilities. it wasnt easy(or cheap) but i learned, and its only now that i have decided to change ships and weapons loadout that my cruiser captains have run into a little issue: i have run out of starfleet merits AND money to respec them.
thats why i made another toon from the ground up to get him there with minimal use of respecs and starfleet merits, and so far- it is paying off.
My point being is that Klingons only have PvP to rely on for game content(while their missions are generally more fun, i find their campaign not a campaign), while the majority of Fed p[layers have an expansive(and relatively boring after the second time) campaign that most people are happy to stick to playing, so they find that they miss out on actually having the development time, the trial and error on optimizing their ship for PvP in the early to mid stages of the game. this makes them start learning about that at Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral levels when they are reaching endgame- whereas the Klingons have it right after the inauguration.
that last paragraph can also be attributed to the increasing amount of experience in speccing/equipping/utilizing ships specifically for PvP that the Klingons get a lot more exposure to.
I disagree. You can see a massive jump between in performance between Tiers. A klingon players experience doesnt jump through the roof between Captain 11 and Rear Admiral 1, but their actual in game performance does. Pick any tier its the same. I've just gone from winning games 15-0 with ease, never dieing, doing 100K in damage and 0 in heals, and one rank later and a new tier and im being absoloutely obliterated. Thats the game mechanics, not player experience.
A lot of players have alt toons in the lower to mid levels so you cant say they lack experience, yet they get hammered again and again and again.
I disagree. You can see a massive jump between in performance between Tiers. A klingon players experience doesnt jump through the roof between Captain 11 and Rear Admiral 1, but their actual in game performance does. Pick any tier its the same. I've just gone from winning games 15-0 with ease, never dieing, doing 100K in damage and 0 in heals, and one rank later and a new tier and im being absoloutely obliterated. Thats the game mechanics, not player experience.
A lot of players have alt toons in the lower to mid levels so you cant say they lack experience, yet they get hammered again and again and again.
I still say that the difference between these tiers and the level of play within them is more related to the use/availibilty of BO powers than the inherent design of the vessel involved.
I still say that the difference between these tiers and the level of play within them is more related to the use/availibilty of BO powers than the inherent design of the vessel involved.
Agreed. Each tier offers changes in mechanics, with the final tier being the most heavily dependent on abilities. Everyone has maxed out their potential captain skills, their ship, and their bridge officer load outs. Sure, you can spam all of that stuff, but having the skill to use those abilities as necessary is going to make the biggest difference in performance.
Lower tiers, by the virtue of being parts of the larger leveling process, are still dependent on game mechanics but to a less degree since there are fewer of them. People at the lower tiers are developing their skills (awareness, timing, etc), still upgrading equipment, using fewer and newer captain abilities as well as managing fewer bridge officer abilities. They have the experience of leveling through to whatever tier they are on for however long they are there before they are ultimate forced into the last tier.
The last tier has a mechanics boost just like like all of those before it. The difference is that here you face people who have been maxed out and heavily PVP oriented for months and months on end mixed with people who just got here. The player skill differential is huge here. The people who just made it are then having to learn against much steeper competition.
The ones who work at it are going to improve and the ones who let the frustration and confusion over how things that worked in the past don't work anymore are going to fail. That's just the opinion of someone who has been at it for a while and seen some pretty incredible things on both sides but personally still has many bad days mixed in with the good ones.
I've just gone from winning games 15-0 with ease, never dieing, doing 100K in damage and 0 in heals, and one rank later and a new tier and im being absoloutely obliterated. Thats the game mechanics, not player experience.
Sounds like you need to adapt. Maybe some less experienced PvPers only decide to try it out at higher levels :cool: so you could always try and blame it on your team instead of admitting that you suck.
Exactly. I just lacked the ability to express it properly. Thanks.
I saw it from a BoP perspective as dogfighting school lower tiers with a gradual increase in crew ability as one rose through the ranks. Still have lost plenty of times and never once thought that I had been cheated.
Rd74
The only game mechanics that would be considered unbalanced are those powers that rise to the top as being so. They get dealt with (hopefully in a rational sense) and corrected. It is entirely possible that at different tiers one faction may have a slight advantage over another in vessel design, but mainly losses in the different tiers can be acrues to the learning curve of pvp and ability use. I sucked at T3 because of several reasons, mainly though because I was spoiled on LG and had forgotten how to survive without my BO abilities and work with less. Also you all played a very good game.
Sounds like you need to adapt. Maybe some less experienced PvPers only decide to try it out at higher levels so you could always try and blame it on your team instead of admitting that you suck.
Sounds like you need to stop replying to my threads if your amazing contribution is to tell people they suck. Welcome to the ignore list.
I still say that the difference between these tiers and the level of play within them is more related to the use/availibilty of BO powers than the inherent design of the vessel involved.
You have a point and obviously I didnt explain mine that well. When I talk about 'ships' I mean everything that comes with them, equipment, Bridge Officers and their abilities. Essentially everything that changes when you jump tier. The only thing that doesnt alter significantly is the player. Therefore any massive changes in the outcome of the game must be primarily down to changes in game mechanics.
The last tier has a mechanics boost just like like all of those before it. The difference is that here you face people who have been maxed out and heavily PVP oriented for months and months on end mixed with people who just got here
Sorry but that, again, just doesnt stand up top scrutiny and relies on the false assumption that there no, or extremley few, experienced federation players, and thats simply not the case. The inbalance in this game is caused primarily by the game mechanics not player experience. If both side had the same basic mechanics you would be right, but they dont.
Comments
Nobody I know of is disputing that in pugs the KDF players tend to have the upperhand. I think the dispute is over wiether its because of a easier ability to team and work together due to repetitveness and pratice or if it is a designed advantage in the makeup of KDF ships. I believe the former is the truth, Klingons just seem to play together more often and have become praticed at pugging pvp.
To be fair, it's not that fed pilots can't understand proper teamwork. We're all the same people, fed or klink. It's just that this game has (by comparison) a lot more solo friendly pve scenarios for feds.
We do need more content overall, but the feds have loads of pve missions they have access to, whereas klingons have PvP or grind boring "kill/scan 5 of x" missions.
The PvE conditioning of most new fed captains leave them totally unprepared for the harsh reality of pvp.
This myth still seems to exist, the kdf can be and have been soundly beaten in all tiers by fed pugs who want to win enough to work together. I can remember at commander lvl on my fed after a 15-0 win one fed player honestly believed the kdf could not be beaten at that lvl.
Earlier today i was grp'd with a single guildie on the kdf side, we ran into a grp in the arena, they worked really well together it was a long match, ok we won but not by much and it could have gone the other way. At first i thought they might be a premade, as tbh you just don't often see that lvl of coordinated supportive play from fed pugs, but equally they might have been a pug with a few players that know what it takes to win a match.
I also find myself buying into the myth at times, when puggin on my kdf i expect to win (unless i run ito a grp or half grp from -tsi-), when puggin on my fed i hope to win but do not expect it as much as when on my kdf, that is not about my skill, or the ship, it is about my expectations of the players i will end up grouped with, i expect the kdf to do thier job, i hope some of the feds will do their job, on a fed i also hold back supportive heals incase i need them, on my bop i throw them out like sweets because i have less worries about not getting heals if i need them.
As others have said, *everyone* needs to heal. Even just throwing Tac team on a buddy who's got debuffs on him is a big help. Saving your heals for yourself is almost always worse than saving your buddy so your buddy can save you later.
I normally still have good luck against Klingon PUGs that have fewer than 2 carriers. Groups of several carriers still mess me up enough that I'm pretty sure PUG groups just can't handle large numbers of carriers. There are some tactics which work well against carriers, but coordinating well enough to handle 3 or 4 of them is just more than you can do in a PUG using text chat. it's nothing as simple as "stay within 10km for healing".
The simple solution is to just do FvF. Those queues pop faster anyway. I normally do FvK because I hate dealing with the longer queues on the Klingon side, so I'm trying to shorten the queues for other Klingon players, but when I get stuck facing nothing but carrier teams it's helpful to stay away from FvK for a while.
Greetings,
It is incumbent upon every warrior to only allow the useless actions of an enemy. While allowing useless actions and prohibiting useful ones, He arrives at the place of Victory, which is the birthright of true Warriors, who honorably apply The Way.
I submit to you that it is not our tactical doctrine that needs revising but the Federation's, with their extremely limited passive tactics, typified by the ignominious FedBall.
The slightest deviation from the Way early on will lead to a larger deviation later, this is unfortunately all too common. I have observed Federation captains on the lower tiers develop their inferior tactics, they are far from the Way and are bereft of discernment.
I quoted you because you so clearly stated *exactly* why we use our tactics 1) they are successful and 2) they only allow the enemy to die.
Anything else is jousting, and there are other games and mmos for that.
Fair never enters into the mind of a Warrior, only Killing the Enemy. I daresay you have been watching too many holovids, fair, even or "balanced" fights are a sure indication that BOTH sides were incompetent. There will be enough stochastic factors to make the battle interesting enough without help beforehand based on some archaic ideology.
"War is our imperative, so we fight" said an inspirational figure from Earth's ancient fiction. When we engage in War (PvP) we are not there to be kind, gentlemanly or in any way fair, we are there to KILL YOU. While we have good relations with the true warriors of STO on both sides, they always know that when they fight against us it will tax them, on every level. Come prepared or go back to playing FvF (Female vs Female). It is only through the fullest application of the Way of the Warrior that a Warrior knows himself.
When you see these things as good, and the Right Path, your eyes will be open to the shining horizon of the East, your very soul will be reinvigorated and a new day of excellence will dawn, heralding Victory and the joyous bubbling laughter of the women welcoming you home after battle!
Yours in Imperative War Plasma,
Star*Dagger
Relevant text:
"Timing in strategy:
There is timing in everything. Timing in strategy cannot be mastered without a great deal of practice.
Timing is important in dancing and pipe or string music, for they are in rhythm only if timing is good. Timing and rhythm are also involved in the military arts, shooting bows and guns, and riding horses. In all skills and abilities there is timing.
There is also timing in the Void.
There is timing in the whole life of the warrior, in his thriving and declining, in his harmony and discord. Similarly, there is timing in the Way of the merchant, in the rise and fall of capital. All things entail rising and falling timing. You must be able to discern this. In strategy there are various timing considerations.
From the outset you must know the applicable timing and the inapplicable timing, and from among the large and small things and the fast and slow timings find the relevant timing, first seeing the distance timing and the background timing. This is the main thing in strategy. It is especially important to know the background timing, otherwise your strategy will become uncertain.
You win in battles with the timing in the Void born of the timing of cunning by knowing the enemies' timing, and this using a timing which the enemy does not expect.
All the five books are chiefly concerned with timing. You must train sufficiently to appreciate all this. "
~Ground Book, A Book of Five Rings, Musashi
The point of this is a game. It should be enteraining on both sides. What you do takes any fun out of PVP. There's no other tactic for us, unless you have any suggestions. The only way I've been able to make a dent with you guys is when we tandem tractors and get you guys stuck using whatever we can. Even if we put up a decent effort, 30+ plus long matches with you swoop in and run the moment we can do anything makes me leave. Immediately. You don't get the satisfaction of the kill.
What you will end up with is nobody who wants to play with you, and you having to go back to reality.
That, half the time I run I'm doing it in hopes someone will chase me because I know in most cases I'll be able to take them down 1 on 1 and if that plan isn't work (ie I'm dying 1 on 1) I know I'll be able to get away again (hello chronitons) and cloak out of range
here my opinion on this ....(my 2 cents per se)
There are apparently some well organzied pre-made fed teams again apparently out there i have not seen them as of yet, but they are out there
8/10 the klinks are winning, although my score is pretty positive on most events i enter i have sometimes had problems with my team-mates not comprehending the situation to well. I live for battle, i love battle, but after levelling my first tact to LG1 in klink faction I just could not figure out why I was not as effective in battle in a fed ship as i was in my klink ship. Klinks ships superior manuverability gives them that edge where they can out turn any fed ship and there by bring their main cannons up front to bear on a fed ship, minus the carrier of course.
It boggled my mind, i was owning with my klink toon then suddenly i turn fed and i suck? I did a detailed compare and contrast between my setups and they were almost identical yet on the klink side i was more effective killer than on the fed side. I completely to the fed side since i was always up for the challenge. I even went into one pvp with a very decent team to fight another klink team and we lost 11-15. I remember that battle quite well it was very well fought and my team was on ball with healing and everything was going great as far as team work and focus fire were concerned ..yet we lost :S
After this i went back to the klink side and there it was again, i was more of an effective killer with klink team-mates who were no where near as good as the team i flew with on the fed side when we lost 11-15. So that scrapped team argument, there is something else here that I was unable to put my finger on.
Some klinks will be arrogant "we are superior fighters and such" "feds are grown up on pve..etc..etc"
"we are warriors, we goto battle to kill, nothing else is important..etc..etc." "yall are all bad pilots on the fed side" and such. I am not sold on that argument after playing as much PvP as i have you start realizing certain things. Tactics and strat are only as good as the people you are flying with in a team setup but yet the fed team i played with when we lost 11-15 was way better than the klink teams i was playing and we still kicked butt as klink..
I did another test, I asked one of my friends who was a LT.COM klink to bring out this BOP which was 5 levels lower than my LT.COM tactical escort ship on the fed side. We did a 1v1 ..i lost 5-2 but the most amazing part of this was our set ups were almost identical in exception of his front cannons being a little bit less powerful than my dual heavies and at the end i out healed him and I out damaged him yet I lost 5-2, it was one long drawn out battle btw. Then i noticed it, the klink ship was able to bear its weapons far more quicker on my escort than i was able to bear my fore weapons on him. So although my fore weapons were more powerful than his which showed in me out damaging him with just the few hits i got on him all his damage was focused more on my shields and my hull. Also their cruisers can mount cannons which our cruisers cant, have you seen the DPS that can be out put with dual heavies and rapid fire, its scary really.
Put this in a team perspective and it maginifies this advantage even more, their main cannons and most powerful guns are always bought to bear on fed ships faster than a fed ship can on theirs. Most fed cruisers cant mount cannons so that puts us quite bit lower on damage perspective add to this fed cruisers cant turn to save their lives and fed escorts do not turn as well as a BOP or raptors can. So now fed ships in a team setup are hard pressed to use up its heals and buffs to stay alive and eventually hit the CD wall quicker than most klink captains, while most of the klinks can save their spells until they are really in trouble which if they play properly they really are not as much trouble as the fed ship captains. Add to this Simple manuevring and weapon setup advantage the universal BO slots which they have they can do on the fly customization of what they want to use to counter a fed ship skills.
Now with the new patch there has been a big controversy coming up with the carrier which has become quite strong IMHO. I am not going to go into that, but theres always the little argument of strength in numbers the new klink carriers are true a testament to that. They are able to launch 30 bops or 90 Fighters if and when need be doing a good bit of damage added with their massive tanking and support capability. Couple this strength in numbers with the afore mentioned ability of the klink ships to bear their most powerful guns on to fed cruisers/escorts faster, it becomes a no brainer as to why I was killing a TRIBBLE load of ships in my LG1 klink and felt so proud of myself and then I come to the fed side and I feel weak and pathetic in a PvP situation scratching my head as to what I am doing wrong no matter how good my build is.
I won't belittle anything you said you had a few valid observations in there. I quoted this part for one reason. This points to the main issue many feds have with PvP in general. I will agree that klink ship layouts and tactics are easier to grasp for basic level players. Therefore low level klinks will out perform low-medium level fed teams... no doubt there. Now here is the part your missing. BURST... your damage HAS to be bursty to kill. The score board damage numbers mean NOTHING. In a PERFECT 15 to 0 match against all escorts the TOTAL team damage should not exceed aprox 525k (For all 5 ships.. 105k each) Now that isn't possible of course... but thats the point... a perfect kill should take 32-50k in damage depending on the ship type.
Now ask what is your ships burst strategy... you could use BOL with a HY combo. You could go cannons with a hy combo. You can go all cannons with a HARD debuff factor. Bottom line is however you do it you need to BURST to break through healing. Cannons on a cruiser are almost useless and most klink cruiser pilots don't use them... however your right they are more Bursty then beams (with out overload)
Your burst plan can also include skills like Aux to Damp... this will allow you to Spin on a dime and get that facing again. (you WILL out turn a bop with aux to damp on) Perhaps thats a better idea then that second emergency power to shield junk.
Most klink ships (AKA the BOP) are very squishy really. If you can drop a shield facing one round of torps will do the job.
I won't ramble... point is more fed need to PLAN how they intend to kill. Most don't have a problem planning a bunch of ways to prolong the engagement... instead start planning to end it.
But if you demand from the "hardcore" PvPers to hold back and "play fair" - they're not entertained. They want to fly to the fullest, min-max their ships to the best, outwit, outmaneuver, outdamange and outheal their opponents, or at least die trying. If you'd take that away, you take away their "entertainment value".
Some PvPers might be just in to steamroll the opposition. But others are there because they want to find the best solutions, the most effectice builds, the most succesful tactics and strategies. They can't do that by "holding back" just in case someone isn't up to the task or because it might be a 15:0 or 1,200:0 overkill that hurts someone's feeling.
Know your enemy. Then Know yourself.
Not only do you want to know the strengths and weaknesses of the ships your fighting against. But you must also be aware of the capabilities of the Captains your fighting against.
That's a Sci/Escort you say? Watch for SNBs and fast Alpha strikes.
Engi/Cruiser? Probably the healer. If you can debuff his heals, or distract him, great.
Tactical/Sci? Sure he will be able to do a lot of damage, but he won't be able to find cloakers as good as a Sci/Sci.
Best thing to do, is not only have high level characters on both sides, but make sure to fly every ship if possible. You don't have to have every class to max level, as long as you know what they will do against you. And how to defend against it.
Next make sure your familiarize your self with each BO power and how your ships, and class abilities affect them.
Do what works for YOU. If being a healer and keeping people alive is fun for you, then do that. If debuffing, and weakening enemies for the heavy hitters is your cup of tea, do that! And if watching some one blow up to your heaviest hitting weapons is what you crave, then do it.
Nothing beats experience. Playing in the PVP matches day in an day out, will show you many things. And the only way to learn those things is not from reading a forum post. But from actually partaking in the sweet feeling of flying a ship in space, and surviving 5v1 alphas because you had that good team that just clicked.
And finally, know what your ships your flying, and what your flying against, can't do. And know how they are doing what ever they are doing to survive, and try to have a way to counter it. If you can't quite figure it out. ASK. Sure I might not be desiring to explain what my tactics are, but if your nice, and you seriously want to find out in order to improve, I might be able to give you the advice you need, provided I know how best to explain it.
And, when all else fails, retreat and regroup.
if every pvp game you get into is a sucktastic lose fest
you are the common denominator!
get better!
very blunt way of putting it. have you heard of tact?
1: Team sticks togehter and wins.
2: Everyone fly´s around solo and gets face-melted.
The refit has a better turn rate (same inertia though) than a raptor and a fleet escort is the same as a raptor in turn and inertia. The advanced escort has the same turn and 10 extra inertia.
The turn argument with the raptor doesn't hold.
While I would agree that all klinks have feds, it is not necessarily true that all feds roll klinks. I know people who have no interest in it, or rarely if ever play their klinks. Many feds seem more interested in the emblems than actually winning. I even had one tell me in an FvF that there "is no winning, I still get emblems". That is a typical attitude it seems. No wonder so many suck.
It's a shame many feds seem to have little active interest in actually being good at PvP, it would make it far more entertaining.
I have not played klink side since the carrier patch, but from my experience, it was a rare occurrence when the team is not 100% cloaked. We can approach our targets unmolested and wait to see who others are targeting, and then attack. This is, without a doubt, a tactical advantage.
I am not going to argue that the ships themselves are OP'd, as I do not believe they are, it is simply that there is a deference that allows klinks to pug PVP for more easily. I have been in many non-teams with zero communication between one another on klink side where we just roast feds because of this. The first couple kills can set the pace of a game.
Obviously this changes with the carrier groups as most are visible, barring the use of MES, but carriers are a whole other issue for PUGS. They just dont encounter anything like it PVE fed side. For that reason they are at a disadvantage, and while that may not be due to the ships, it is due to the nature of the game.
Frankly fed side FvK gets tiresome because wins come too infrequently, while klink FvK gets tiresome because the wins are all too often too easy and there is no sense of challenge. Sure there are same faction PvP, but that kind of defeats the purpose to my mind.
I've heard of it. It's short for "Tactical Officer", I believe.
You can't build a ship to compensate for the experience of a better player. I did LTC pvp in my science alt BoP yesterday and could not win (could barely kill anything) a match to save my life. Am I to assume that at LTC the feds have an advantage over the KDF? Or do I just put it down to bad build, bad equipment and a rusty set of skills at that level pvp?
One can have all the tests with a friend or complete strangers and the outcome will still be skewed to your belief that the KDF is designed to have an advantage over the feds in combat. Unless you can find two people of equal skill, all such tests have to be considered invalid because opposite results are too easy achieve and they show none of the signs of imbalance that you and your friend have seen. As long as opposite results can be achieved so easily, I don't see how your results can be seen as valid. Thus I feel the whole debate on "KDF OP-ness" as a matter of opinion over fact.
I would say yes, at that level the advantage clearly lies with the Federation. The majority of Klingons seemed to have the BoP at this level but BoP's dont yet have the survivability to be that effective and the hit and run tactics dont work that well because you dont have the burst damage either. (This is wear those low hull and shield issues you guys love actually have importance, at the lower levels)
I played against you quite a bit yesterday and it was pretty much all about focus fire. (and transphasic breen mines
Ship capabilities have a lot more to do with this game than many of the people on this forum are prepared to admit, and at different levels the inherent advantages change. Lt, LtC and Cmd are heavily in favour of the Federation, Captain is probably the most balanced level with some great fights happening here, RA and VA are all about the Klingons. What the Dev's need to do is try and get all levels more like Captain level.
THIS. At Lt. Cmdr, pvp was definately uphill in my BoP. I've less shields and about 1/2 the hull compared to cruisers.
However, at VA1 level and it's pug kling vs pug fed? "10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or more, the bloody red baron is runnin up the score!"
(No, I don't equate myself as one of the best, far from it. I'm quite noobish really
I agree that T4 is the best for pvp, but I doubt that the Dev's can make all ranks of pvp equal to it in playability (or if they should). My post was mainly to show how easy it would be for anyone to feel like they are being "OP-ed" in a match and to poke fun at the whole debate of OP when any advantage that does exist is due more to teamwork, build design and experience over any inherent advantages in the system.
and I was feeling somewhat sarcastic this morning.
that last paragraph can also be attributed to the increasing amount of experience in speccing/equipping/utilizing ships specifically for PvP that the Klingons get a lot more exposure to.
the first ships i ever saw break 54K were Klingon ships, which made me work to get more than my normal 47K hull cruisers, so i spent a lot more time, C-Points, and respecs learning how they got their ship hulls that high while maintaining their tanking abilities. it wasnt easy(or cheap) but i learned, and its only now that i have decided to change ships and weapons loadout that my cruiser captains have run into a little issue: i have run out of starfleet merits AND money to respec them.
thats why i made another toon from the ground up to get him there with minimal use of respecs and starfleet merits, and so far- it is paying off.
My point being is that Klingons only have PvP to rely on for game content(while their missions are generally more fun, i find their campaign not a campaign), while the majority of Fed p[layers have an expansive(and relatively boring after the second time) campaign that most people are happy to stick to playing, so they find that they miss out on actually having the development time, the trial and error on optimizing their ship for PvP in the early to mid stages of the game. this makes them start learning about that at Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral levels when they are reaching endgame- whereas the Klingons have it right after the inauguration.
I disagree. You can see a massive jump between in performance between Tiers. A klingon players experience doesnt jump through the roof between Captain 11 and Rear Admiral 1, but their actual in game performance does. Pick any tier its the same. I've just gone from winning games 15-0 with ease, never dieing, doing 100K in damage and 0 in heals, and one rank later and a new tier and im being absoloutely obliterated. Thats the game mechanics, not player experience.
A lot of players have alt toons in the lower to mid levels so you cant say they lack experience, yet they get hammered again and again and again.
I still say that the difference between these tiers and the level of play within them is more related to the use/availibilty of BO powers than the inherent design of the vessel involved.
Agreed. Each tier offers changes in mechanics, with the final tier being the most heavily dependent on abilities. Everyone has maxed out their potential captain skills, their ship, and their bridge officer load outs. Sure, you can spam all of that stuff, but having the skill to use those abilities as necessary is going to make the biggest difference in performance.
Lower tiers, by the virtue of being parts of the larger leveling process, are still dependent on game mechanics but to a less degree since there are fewer of them. People at the lower tiers are developing their skills (awareness, timing, etc), still upgrading equipment, using fewer and newer captain abilities as well as managing fewer bridge officer abilities. They have the experience of leveling through to whatever tier they are on for however long they are there before they are ultimate forced into the last tier.
The last tier has a mechanics boost just like like all of those before it. The difference is that here you face people who have been maxed out and heavily PVP oriented for months and months on end mixed with people who just got here. The player skill differential is huge here. The people who just made it are then having to learn against much steeper competition.
The ones who work at it are going to improve and the ones who let the frustration and confusion over how things that worked in the past don't work anymore are going to fail. That's just the opinion of someone who has been at it for a while and seen some pretty incredible things on both sides but personally still has many bad days mixed in with the good ones.
Sounds like you need to adapt. Maybe some less experienced PvPers only decide to try it out at higher levels :cool: so you could always try and blame it on your team instead of admitting that you suck.
Exactly. I just lacked the ability to express it properly. Thanks.
I saw it from a BoP perspective as dogfighting school lower tiers with a gradual increase in crew ability as one rose through the ranks. Still have lost plenty of times and never once thought that I had been cheated.
Rd74
The only game mechanics that would be considered unbalanced are those powers that rise to the top as being so. They get dealt with (hopefully in a rational sense) and corrected. It is entirely possible that at different tiers one faction may have a slight advantage over another in vessel design, but mainly losses in the different tiers can be acrues to the learning curve of pvp and ability use. I sucked at T3 because of several reasons, mainly though because I was spoiled on LG and had forgotten how to survive without my BO abilities and work with less. Also you all played a very good game.
Sounds like you need to stop replying to my threads if your amazing contribution is to tell people they suck. Welcome to the ignore list.
You have a point and obviously I didnt explain mine that well. When I talk about 'ships' I mean everything that comes with them, equipment, Bridge Officers and their abilities. Essentially everything that changes when you jump tier. The only thing that doesnt alter significantly is the player. Therefore any massive changes in the outcome of the game must be primarily down to changes in game mechanics.
Sorry but that, again, just doesnt stand up top scrutiny and relies on the false assumption that there no, or extremley few, experienced federation players, and thats simply not the case. The inbalance in this game is caused primarily by the game mechanics not player experience. If both side had the same basic mechanics you would be right, but they dont.