Most people say this was a toe to toe battle. However... it was not.
The Lakota was a massively refit Excelsior class ships with more powerful phasers and Quantum torpedoes. It may have had more systems upgraded but that's all we know for sure.
The Defiant is a ship that relies on it's maneuverability and massive firepower. It's cannons can rip through shields and it can dodge most incoming torpedoes and many phaser attacks.
Lets look at the battle...
For the whole first minute the Defiant does not attack back. They don't take any major evasive actions. They just let themselves get hit several times by the Lakota's upgraded phasers.
So basically the Lakota is getting half a dozen (by my count) free phaser hits before the Defiant decides to fight back.
At this point they start exchanging blows. The Lakota takes the cannons however most seem to not be direct hits, often missing entirely as if the Defiant didn't actually want to shoot them (because they didn't).
All of the visible Lakota phaser beams hit and they just keep coming. The Defiant fires a single torpedo that we can see.
After the scene with the Admiral and Sisko (with the battle still going on) the Defiant crew talked about the current standings of the battle. The Defiant was badly damaged however as Kira put it "They're in worse shape. One good hit would probably finish them".
Basically after taking a minute's worth of free hits the Defiant is still apparently winning.
Also the Defiant had 2 dead, 7 badly injured. The Lakota as many as 24 casualties. Again, the Lakota is losing.
In short:
Lakota rams on the Defiant for a minute of free hits.
Lakota still in the worst shape and still would probably lose.
Now you could point out that both ships had Quantums but it would appear neither used them. We only saw one torpedo and it was a normal one.
Also you can say that we didn't see several minutes of the battle because of the Sisko scenes. However... I'll just go by what I
do see. Anything said about those couple minutes could be just that, anything said. You could say that the Defiant just unloaded their whole compliment of Quantums on the Lakota. Personally I doubt that since they didn't want to destroy the Lakota and there's no evidence.
Basically the end result is a stronger Excelsior-class ship. It's surely a lot tougher than the older Excelsiors but still not up to par with the Defiant. If I were to put it in STO terms I'd say it would be a tier or two lower :P.
It was hardly toe to toe. Though the Excelsior did put up a decent fight. I'd suggest everyone watch these scenes again.
Comments
ships often where a lot stronger or weaker when the story writers damned such and hence it is a royal pain in the TRIBBLE to truely determine their strenghts.
But, as Liandras said, if they wanted the Lakota to win, the writers could have easily done it. The hero ship always wins in the writers eyes.
Oh, and the Excelsior does belong in the tier it is in, simply because it is according to Cryptic, an Advanced Heavy Cruiser.
we actually dont know that for sure, captain benteen seamed to have an idea what was going on and refused to use the quantum torpedoes
also different crews have an effect on the battle. put the defiant crew in the lakota and maybe things would have been different
put the TNG crew in the lakota and ds9 in the defiant and then you would have a fight
went back and corrected that
Or scaled down the Lakota...
So it's an old cruiser (that should be reclassified as a destroyer because newer cruisers are much bigger) upgraded with the newest weapon technology vs. an escort.
Yeah, that's typical for Star Trek battles. There are always bridge scenes where they talk while the others shoot. And as far as I know this was one of the last battles that were filmed with actual physical models (the Lakota being the Enterprise-B, they couldn't get the ugly parts off because of the glue). Also:
Kira: We're in weapons range.
Worf: Raise shields!
The other way around would've been better.
The Defiant wanted to hit them, otherwise they wouldn't have shot. They just didn't want to destroy the Lakota but disable her sp they could proceed to earth. But interpreting Worf's "We fight! Target their weapons, fire phasers!" as "We shoot but don't you dare to hit them." goes a bit far.
Yeah. However, Leyton was sure that the Lakota was powerful enough to stop them. Usually you don't become a vice admiral if you make that kind of mistake, this wasn't STO. As Benteen put it, they couldn't disable the Defiant with phasers because it had ablative armor, something that's seemingly not standard for Defiant-class ships. And the Lakota didn't use any torpedoes. It had 6 torpedo launchers, so it would have outgunned the Defiant there. Both were holding back, but the Defiant had the advantage of using phaser cannons and having ablative armor in a battle where the enemy doesn't use torpedoes.
Defiant: 50 crew, 9 = 18%. Lakota 750 crew 24= 3,2%......
Had Leyton known that he would more than likely have sent a more powerful ship like a Galaxy class to deal with the Defiant.
But lets also keep in mind that ablative armor is an extra modification that could be potentially added to any starfleet ship, including an Excelsior.
Also the excelsior can be classified as cruiser because it is in fact quite big
Also Leyton couldn't have asend an other ship without putting Benting on that ships command chiar. She was one of his most loyal supporters after all and you do not send some one you are not sure will do what you want. The only thing stopping her was the fact the act would be futile and result in the loss of a lot of lives.
In my view of star trek tech (which is my area of love.exprietiese) The lakota could have won because it had the first shots. If they had go out from start to destroy the defiant and the defiant would have the smae mindset of now way they won't shoot they would have been toast.
but if both ships came in knowing it was do or die the locakta would have been defeated as the pulse cannons have the nasty habbit of overloading ship grids in small areas and the excelsior hull how updated she may be is not close to the strenght of what a galaxy would have for example.
But than we come to the ismple fact many battles in star trek are drawn out for the O nice effect while in fact they would have been a lot shorter. Hence I like the DS9 fleet battles where ships did go boom realtively fast, though they could not use shields due budget reason which would have change it a bit, but than look at the game when a few ships focus one it will go down fast.
Anyway lots of speculation lots of opinions and not enough facts and knowledge to give a true answer to the story. So each keep the view you like I know I do
Yes the Lakota fired first. It was always going to fire first. It's the aggressor. And Starfleet's first course of action when fired upon, even when done so by hostile vessels, is to demand an explanation, firing back comes second, so it's no surprise it got a headstart. There's no reason to believe the Lakota's crew wasn't doing its job to the best of its abilities though, having (as I recall) been told the Defiant's crew had been replaced entirely by shapeshifters. The only one who was likely to know this was an outright lie was Benteen, so if the Lakota had any options it didn't use that would've most likely been due to her not leaving it to her tactical officer's discretion.
Without saying who would've or should've won, overall, as a strictly war-time ship the Defiant's just better on aco**** of there being less resources involved in building on, and it being able to operate with a tenth of the crew. For the cost of building any cruiser and training its crew, you could do the same for close to a dozen Defiants...
And who I wonder would win that fight?
Minor mistake as the defiant is a very complex ship which takes additional time to build. Also much of her parts are not exactly stock part and won't be in wide supply and would thus need to be constructed first.
You know, I have a hard time believing that *everyone* on the Lakota believed that story. It's highly unlikely that the entire officer and crew of the ship - 750 if STO is correct - believed the story, and if enough didn't, and if Benteen hadn't had her crisis of concious, she might have been facing a mutiny on her own ship. But, that's speculation on something that occured in the background - and relatively insignificant part in the storyline, too.
IMO both crews were holding back. They held back the quantums and weren't trying to destroy each other but disable. Though the Defiant was holding back less (hence the letting them get hit :P).
The Lakota, after all it's bonuses, was one good hit away from being defeated. Maybe the Admiral had counted on the Defiant holding back and knew that if they didn't use their quantums and the Lakota did (as they were ordered to but didn't) that the Lakota would win. He counted on that. When it failed he failed.
But we can wonder what they were thinking all day long. We can try to give logic to it all day long. At the end of the day you can't know what they were thinking and you still have two ships with one apparently winning despite all the bonuses the Lakota got.
Not really, just look at the epic battle in "Rascals". Or the one in Star Trek VII. As far as I remember they tried firing at the BoP (that they outclassed in every aspect, except shields when the Klingons got the frequency (that they could've changed) of theirs). Then they spent half an eternity figuring out how to remotely activate the cloaking device of the BoP to destroy them with one hit, instead of trying to hit them with everything they had so they would have to make evasive maneuvers and stop the attack.
The writers of the episode wanted to show us two ships fighting to a stalemate, and of course the Defiant crew talking about their situation..... Trying to apply logic to Star Trek battles is often a very bad idea.
The Lakota wasn't specifically ordered to use quantum torpedoes, they were ordered to stop the Defiant from reaching Earth. The explicit order to destroy it was something Leyton gave later when the Lakota had problems stopping them. So no he didn't count on the Lakota using her quantum torpedoes first.
The Defiant wasn't winning. Yeah, one hit would have finished the Lakota off. The same was true for the Defiant. That's the point of a stalemate (And typically Star Trek that Sisko broke it with his appeal to Benteen.) Imagine how the battle would have been if we had seen the crew of the Defiant and Benteen's crew equally. Yep we would have seen the bridge of the Lakota shaking while they talk instead of firing all the time.
Fact is that Leyton sent the Lakota to stop the Defiant. Stop, not destroy at first, fully aware that there could be a battle with one of the most modern warships of the fleet, even though they would "probably" hold back. Worf could also have decided that the Federation is worth more than the 750 people on board the Lakota or if the Defiant outclasses the Lakota that much simply wrecked her big exposed impulse engines. Leyton may have been paranoid, but I don't believe that he was that much of an idiot as a vice admiral.
The only factual information you need to know is that this was a fight conceived within a writers imagination and executed with models. The dialog/fight outcome are solely based on the needs of the story. The evil badguys could have sent 12 hulking monster ships and Santa's sleigh to the fight, and if the story required the Defiant to beat them all and then run over the reindeer, thats what would have happened.
Know why the Defiant took a pounding for the first minute? Writer said so.
Know why Benteen didn't use torpedo's? Writer said so.
The effects of nine dead versus 24 dead fictional characters who don't really exist on the capabilities of their non-existent ships? Whatever the writers determine them to be.
Anything else is just the speculation of whomever is posting based on their own preference for who would have won. My money would have been on Santa. Go reindeer!
I'm all for enjoying the shows/game for what they are, but do you really need to be right and/or argumenitive about things that didn't actually occur in reality? Seems like maybe a good time to step away from the TV/keyboard. Unless we are now going to argue about how Santa's sleigh is completely overpowered since in reality there isn't anywhere to mount the torpedo launchers...?
The Lakota put up a fight but in the end she was no match.
Ummm, no. No they aren't. How do you think the winners of fights in the shows are determined? The writers don't write a script up to the beginning of the fight then consult the magic "who is more badass than who?" ship matrix to see who wins. There isn't a twenty sided dice throw involved. The story determines the winner. Otherwise, TNG should have been renamed "Borg Assimilation, the next generation" once they showed up on the scene because without the hero effect the borg would win.
The writers determine what actually happens in the show and thus, establish canon. If a new show set in the prime timeline came out where some hack writer decides Santa's Sleigh blows up the Defiant, that would then become canon and would be determined strictly on the needs of the story. The fact that the Defiant kicked the ever-loving TRIBBLE out of Santa and the reindeer three episodes ago wouldn't matter - the needs of the story dictate who wins.
At best, sitting in a STO forum and debating which ship won whichever fight and how badass it was based on how it won is forum-based fan fiction.
Replies in quote. But basically every handicap you bring up about the Lakota (like not using Quantums) was true with the Defiant too. However the Lakota didn't give the Defiant a whole minute of free hits.
Take away the minute of free hits and the Defiant would have swept the floor with them. Take away the handicaps like "no quantums" it would be the same because they both had exactly the same handicaps. But again, for the millionth time, the Defiant stayed on it's course and gave them a minute a free hits without taking action. It was only after a lot of damage did they decide to start fighting back.
No, it isn't. Your overanalyzing of a space battle in a very inconsistent TV show is irrelevant and futile.
You are always ignoring the ablative armor of the Defiant, I'm wondering why? And the "minute of free hits and not dodging" again has nothing to do with respective ship strengths, only with the need of the scriptwriter to have the crew of the Defiant talk onscreen. Trying to prove the superiority of the Defiant with that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on these forums.
2 for 1.
If we go by STO standards, and assume the ships are STO ships, I think they're about evenly matched. The Excelsior, as a cruiser, has much greater staying power than the more fragile Defiant. However of course, the Defiant has quite an upper hand in the amount of damage it can muster.
You can't really script it in the Foundry because we don't have a breakdown for "Escorts" "Cruisers" and "Science Ships". All we have are "Frigate" "Cruiser" and "Battleship". By the standards of the game, both ships would basically be "Cruisers" in the Foundry (Frigates are weaker), and it would just be like flipping a coin, since it would just be a random ship that was reskinned to look like one ship or the other.
That would be interesting. Blue mk. x or xi phaser banks/arrays for the Lakota, quad phaser cannons for the Defiant (no torps!). I'd also say that neither ship gets phaser or energy weapon tac consoles. Defiant gets 1 ablative armour engineering console. Lakota gets an emitter array sci console (maybe?). BOff abilities are limited to CRF and BAO for weapons and perhaps evasive maneuvers.
FIGHT!
I'm sorry to tell you this, but you fail when you try to establish ship strenghts based on "tv canon".
Go back and watch 7 seasons of TNG (all of them are TV canon). In EVERY goddamn episode where the biggest, badest, best Federation Galaxy class ship meets someone new, their shields fall in 2 seconds, weapons disabled in 4 and being boarded after 10 seconds.
According to TV canon the Galaxy class is a piece of TRIBBLE. We're being told it's the best ship the Federation has to offer, but almost never shown that.
My 2 cents is that the Lakota couldn't even kick a T4 Escort's butt, so it's really not classified properly in the ship tier system.