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The Enterprise-J/Universe Class: How to Integrate It

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Okay... So according to the latest Engineering Report, the Enterprise-J or Universe Class ship is in development. For those who aren't familiar with it, this was a future Enterprise which NX Captain Jonathan Archer was taken to in an episode of Enterprise. Archer arrived in the 26th century. At the end, history was changed and we are never shown if the Enterprise-J remains the flagship of the 26th century Federation.

In terms of including it in the game, the issues are that it comes from a time that is likely at least 85 years after the setting of the game (assuming the episode took place in the early 26th century and the Enterprise-J was old by then). Beyond that, there is the issue of its size, which designer Doug Drexler claimed he intended to be roughly two miles long, almost five times the length of the Sovereign Class Enterprise-E.

The size issue is hard to estimate. We have never seen a canon size comparison or anything that firmly establishes that size for the ship.

The timeframe issue is a bit trickier as even the most forgiving contortions would generally place the ship in our future. This is different from the "Future Enterprise"/Galaxy-X issue as there was nothing that definitively tied it to the universe we saw it in. It could be developed in any universe that had a Galaxy Class and this game takes place in a more distant future than the one glimpsed in "All Good Things", meaning that it remains a plausible technological advancement.

Now... What is the Enterprise-J doing here and being flown by players? That is the real question. It's from the future. Generally, the Federation has a "Temporal Prime Directive" barring them from meddling with the timeline unless someone else did first.

That would mean one of two scenarios would cover it being present here:

- Someone or something damaged the timeline in a way that the only corrective measure possible was for the Federation of the future to contact and arm its past counterpart. This would mean that our existing timeline has already been irreparably damaged by someone in the future. (Ie. maybe we're not supposed to be at war with the Klingons now and the war should have ended sooner but a time traveler from the future is responsible for tilting the war out of the Federation's favor and the future Federation has to help us win to restore a more proper version of events.) This requires some hoop jumping to accept.

- The designs are obtained in violation of the Temporal Prime Directive.


What I think would be a juicy version of the second scenario is basically the following:

Section 31 has been infiltrating Temporal Investigations for years. They studied what scans they could find of the 26th century timepod that visited the Enterprise. They've kept records on every time anomaly the various crews have encountered. They have studied the Guardian of Forever. The final piece of the puzzle was the Voyager EMH's holo-emitter armband, which is a piece of 29th century technology which it would appear was only reverse engineered this year.

Section 31 is very wary about the Federation's odds for survival in the face of war with the Klingons, Romulans, True Way, Borg, Undine, and now the threat of the Breen and Iconians. When the Federation is threatened, they are notorious for being willing to break any principle to protect the Federation.

So here's what happens: Drake gets ahold of the tech from the Doctor's armband and discovers that it contained a temporal distress beacon. Using the data Section 31 has collected, Drake and Section 31 create a mock-up of a ship from the future and a fake time anomaly. They use this with the beacon in hopes of luring some unsuspecting ship from the future to come back.

They succeed in luring the Enterprise-J back to the present, unleash a deadly virus on the crew and proceed to make plans to take it back to the Sol system to be put into mass production as a new warship to turn the tide in the Federation's favor.

We uncover this plot and are given options.

1) Side totally with Drake and agree with his reasoning that the deaths of the future Enterprise's crew and theft of its technology are a small sacrifice to pay to win the wars.

2) Beam over and try to treat the crew while reclaiming the ship from Section 31. This leads to a confrontation on the bridge which echoes a certain past mission with Drake. The surviving commanding officer of the Enterprise-J insists that the Temporal Prime Directive must be upheld and initiates a self-destruct sequence. At this point you can:

a) Abandon the ship and let it blow up.

b) Fight to preserve the ship and its crew, taking it back to Starfleet Command against its will for Admiral Quinn to decide what to do.

c) Reluctantly side with Drake, deciding the crew of the future Enterprise will die anyway and it might as well be put to good use, even if you disagree with Drake's initial acts of theft and murder.


Outcome 1 and 2c have you help Drake get the ship reverse engineered.

Outcome 2a, you discover that Section 31 had operatives in your own crew who were able to get complete scans and diagnostics for the Enterprise-J while you were otherwise occupied.

Outcome 2b, you discover that Quinn is a Section 31 operative himself and he uses the ship as a template for a new line, thanking you personally for your blind loyalty which allowed him to salvage Drake's botched operation.

In all 4 outcomes, the Universe-class comes into use present day.

With regards to the size issue, the NPC ship can be made much larger... and the explanation for the smaller player ship may be that it's simply a scaled down version of the future ship, tweaked for mass production using today's standards.

Thoughts...?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Ship reward + new content = win

    C-store = thats probably where its going haha
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    personally i dont think it should, you never really saw a good image of it and to me it looked like starship roadkill.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    The "J" may not even be a successful warship design. It's a flying city with thousands of civilians. It may only have enough weaponry to defend itself.

    if they're gonna put it in, may as well be full size.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    to be honest, they should release the enterprise F,G,H,I before they make the god awfull universe class enter the game.. right now i am so upset by them even considering putting a semi conical crappy design in the game, that i have a hard time wanting to log in hahaha...

    really guys, as many people that voted for it, there was at least 15 times as many who said they did not want it... apearently you dont know how to apease the masses.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Here's how to integrate it:

    Cancel it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Here's how to integrate it:

    Cancel it.

    seconded

    /signed
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Here's how to integrate it:

    Cancel it.

    With fire.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I like the ship, IMO its more attractive than any single ship design Cryptic has put out. This game is already so far from canon that it really doesnt matter. We are playing in an alternate timeline spawned by Cryptics meddling. A faraway land where Starfleet personell look like Na'vii from Avatar, where we wear MU uniforms on Spacedock and will soon be blowing up Vo'quvs with Excelsiors. Besides, why complain that they should add other ships? the Excelsior...Nebula and several others are on the way too, be happy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010

    In terms of including it in the game, the issues are that it comes from a time that is likely at least 85 years after the setting of the game (assuming the episode took place in the early 26th century and the Enterprise-J was old by then). Beyond that, there is the issue of its size, which designer Doug Drexler claimed he intended to be roughly two miles long, almost five times the length of the Sovereign Class Enterprise-E.

    The size issue is hard to estimate. We have never seen a canon size comparison or anything that firmly establishes that size for the ship.

    one point about the size that ive head a few people talk about is that yes the designer wanted it to be huge because it was something like 130 to 200 years beyond anything we have ever seen but what he thinks is irrelevant. he just designed it and that was the size in his mind. so your right as we have never seen anything on screen to confirm in size then cryptic are free to make it look normal size in comparison to the others

    personally i dont mind seeing the ship as part of a time travel episode but i dont really want to see the ship in game

    but if they are going to put it in i would set it as a reward for completing the time travel mission where perhaps somehow the ship is brought back to our timeline but the crew are dead and starfleet have no option but to take the ship, use the tech inside to create their own versions.

    or i suppose its possible the enterprise j was a refit of that class of ship and the original was launched now
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    SHOOT IT!!! CUT OUT ITS TONGUE!! shoot it and cut out its tongue....THEN SHOOT THE TONGUE!! lol!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Interesting ideas, all of them. The ship was huge, wasn't it supposed to house a full size amusement park in the saucer section? It'll be interesting to see where they go with this, because to me Ent-J and NX-01 just don't seem to fit in this game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Maybe im squeamish but killing the entire crew of the J, probably with thousands of civvies in it, in almost all your scenario endings doesnt sound quite right to me. Its the Enterprise, flagship in its time, and again...thousands of civvies. I think somewhere after this mission id be rallying all remaining non-31 admirals with me to scour starfleet clean of section 31, or even make a coup because its so extreme...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    because to me Ent-J and NX-01 just don't seem to fit in this game.

    They don't. They're part of some campaign to try to convince people that Enterprise didn't suck. Probably allied with those people who think that the prequels weren't an abomination in Star Wars.

    Really, I think it's like a universal law that prequels have to suck, or something.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    There is no problem integrating the Universe class. It is hard to estimate when the Universe class was first commisssioned, then how long it was before the J was built and commissioned, or how old the J was when it was seen in the 26th century.

    For a modern day example the Nimitz class carrier was first commissioned in 1975, the last of that class was commissioned in 2009. That is a period of 34 years between the first and last of class. It may not be unreasonable for a class of vessel to have an even longer time of actively being built and upgraded. We have no real means to judge the turnover rate of Starship designs in Starfleet. Then there is the length of time in service. Modern comparison would be the Aircraft Carrier USS Enterprise which is set to retire in2013 after 51 years of service. This is likely to be shorter than the Nimitz class. The Enterprise was the only one of her kind, and therefore more expensive to be maintained and updated. We already know that Starfleet easily keeps ships around for 70+ years (see Miranda and Excelsior classes) therefore a successful design may be actively built for 30 or 40 years and then each ship could be in service for another 70 or 80 years, meaning that it would not be extrordinary to have the first ships in the Universe class being built sometime shortly after 2409, and having an Enterprise J still active in 2529 or even later.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    WarpVis wrote: »
    There is no problem integrating the Universe class. It is hard to estimate when the Universe class was first commisssioned, then how long it was before the J was built and commissioned, or how old the J was when it was seen in the 26th century.

    For a modern day example the Nimitz class carrier was first commissioned in 1975, the last of that class was commissioned in 2009. That is a period of 34 years between the first and last of class. It may not be unreasonable for a class of vessel to have an even longer time of actively being built and upgraded. We have no real means to judge the turnover rate of Starship designs in Starfleet. Then there is the length of time in service. Modern comparison would be the Aircraft Carrier USS Enterprise which is set to retire in2013 after 51 years of service. This is likely to be shorter than the Nimitz class. The Enterprise was the only one of her kind, and therefore more expensive to be maintained and updated. We already know that Starfleet easily keeps ships around for 70+ years (see Miranda and Excelsior classes) therefore a successful design may be actively built for 30 or 40 years and then each ship could be in service for another 70 or 80 years, meaning that it would not be extrordinary to have the first ships in the Universe class being built sometime shortly after 2409, and having an Enterprise J still active in 2529 or even later.

    ^^ this is what alot of people do not seem to understand.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    WarpVis wrote: »
    There is no problem integrating the Universe class. It is hard to estimate when the Universe class was first commisssioned, then how long it was before the J was built and commissioned, or how old the J was when it was seen in the 26th century.

    For a modern day example the Nimitz class carrier was first commissioned in 1975, the last of that class was commissioned in 2009. That is a period of 34 years between the first and last of class. It may not be unreasonable for a class of vessel to have an even longer time of actively being built and upgraded. We have no real means to judge the turnover rate of Starship designs in Starfleet. Then there is the length of time in service. Modern comparison would be the Aircraft Carrier USS Enterprise which is set to retire in2013 after 51 years of service. This is likely to be shorter than the Nimitz class. The Enterprise was the only one of her kind, and therefore more expensive to be maintained and updated. We already know that Starfleet easily keeps ships around for 70+ years (see Miranda and Excelsior classes) therefore a successful design may be actively built for 30 or 40 years and then each ship could be in service for another 70 or 80 years, meaning that it would not be extrordinary to have the first ships in the Universe class being built sometime shortly after 2409, and having an Enterprise J still active in 2529 or even later.

    There's a small flaw in your reasoning. We've still got the Enterprise E around. Even if we give her up for lost, as she has been MIA for a bit, that still leaves the F, G, H, and I. How many Enterprises are we blowing up in a week?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Given its size it could be introduced along lines discussed here

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=172910

    The concept was fleet run vessels (not to be debated here per se) but one of the ideas raised was to have a mission in which you are (for whatever reason) placed in a position to serve on the ship and you have to perform most duties involved.

    Seems like the two concepts could mesh pretty well.

    I personally don't find it too implausible that the ship could have been designed in this era, but wasn't really flagship material due to its size. Once enemies adapted a bit and built bigger ships to combat these, ships in general began to expand. Eventually the design grows from a mammoth support class to more of a flag ship. As it stands, a ship nearly 3x the size of a galaxy would be slow, lumbering, and not maneuverable. It would serve more as a mobile command center than any kind of ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    WarpVis wrote: »
    There is no problem integrating the Universe class. It is hard to estimate when the Universe class was first commisssioned, then how long it was before the J was built and commissioned, or how old the J was when it was seen in the 26th century.

    For a modern day example the Nimitz class carrier was first commissioned in 1975, the last of that class was commissioned in 2009. That is a period of 34 years between the first and last of class. It may not be unreasonable for a class of vessel to have an even longer time of actively being built and upgraded. We have no real means to judge the turnover rate of Starship designs in Starfleet. Then there is the length of time in service. Modern comparison would be the Aircraft Carrier USS Enterprise which is set to retire in2013 after 51 years of service. This is likely to be shorter than the Nimitz class. The Enterprise was the only one of her kind, and therefore more expensive to be maintained and updated. We already know that Starfleet easily keeps ships around for 70+ years (see Miranda and Excelsior classes) therefore a successful design may be actively built for 30 or 40 years and then each ship could be in service for another 70 or 80 years, meaning that it would not be extrordinary to have the first ships in the Universe class being built sometime shortly after 2409, and having an Enterprise J still active in 2529 or even later.

    This I could see, all it would do is imply the Ent-J we saw in the episode had been around for awhile, which isn't unusual for a flagship. But Aris' reasoning is sound as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    The J has a drastically different design from canon or cryptic's ships though. Just doesnt seem right to shoehorn it in, even if it could possibly have been built in the 25th century and carried over into the 26th.

    Although it shouldnt be canceled on the grounds of 'ugly'. I mean, to me ships like the intrepid (garden spade) are ugly. Thats just personal preference, and some of us do like the design. And the enterprise series. Saying everyone dislikes it is wrong, the only proof you have is 'everyone who doesnt like it AND bothers to post about it post that they dont like it'.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Aris wrote:
    There's a small flaw in your reasoning. We've still got the Enterprise E around. Even if we give her up for lost, as she has been MIA for a bit, that still leaves the F, G, H, and I. How many Enterprises are we blowing up in a week?

    You are assuming that the Universe class cannot exist while those other ships are around. You had the end of the original Enterprise and then its replacement the Enterprise-A while the Excelsior class was around. I have provided 120 years in which F, G, H, and I can be built and lost and we have no idea what types of ships those were.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    It should also be noted that the Enterprise isn't an old ship name. As the name for the flagship, they don't put it on a hull design that's been floating around for 80 years. If that monstrosity was going to be named Enterprise, it would have happened earlier in its production life.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    The Enterprise name is traditionally given to the current flagship class. If this ugly ship comes out in 2409 and since the E is still around... it would be sad if the F, G, H and I on top of the E were all destroyed before a new flagship came around (Flagships seem to be replaced every like 20-30 years now).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    WarpVis wrote: »
    You are assuming that the Universe class cannot exist while those other ships are around. You had the end of the original Enterprise and then its replacement the Enterprise-A while the Excelsior class was around. I have provided 120 years in which F, G, H, and I can be built and lost and we have no idea what types of ships those were.

    120 is a very short time span to go through 4 ships. That's 30 years a pop. While certainly not out of the realm of possibility, very unlikely for ships named Enterprise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    120 is a very short time span to go through 4 ships. That's 30 years a pop. While certainly not out of the realm of possibility, very unlikely for ships named Enterprise.

    And the Enterprise name has ALWAYS gone to the Flagship. There's no way this horrid ship would still be the flagship after 120 years.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    The Enterprise name is traditionally given to the current flagship class. If this ugly ship comes out in 2409 and since the E is still around... it would be sad if the F, G, H and I on top of the E were all destroyed before a new flagship came around (Flagships seem to be replaced every like 20-30 years now).

    That is untrue. Other than the alternate JJ-prise, and in TNG the Enterprise had not been a flagship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    WarpVis wrote: »
    That is untrue. Other than the alternate JJ-prise, and in TNG the Enterprise had not been a flagship.

    What?

    Enterprise (Kirk). Constitution-class. Flagship class.

    Enterprise A. Connie again as the Excelsior-class wasn't in full development yet.

    Enterprise B. Excelsior as there were many by this point. Excelsior was the new Flagship class.

    Enterprise C. Ambassador, flagship class.

    Enterprise D. Galaxy. Flagship.

    Enterprise E. Sovereign. Flagship.


    Every single one has been a flagship class. You could argue that the Excelsior was around when the A came about but it was really still a new ship and no others were available.

    You could argue that we don't know for sure that the Ambassador was a flagship but it seems likely.

    The J would likely follow the tradition. 120 years from now this class will be old and crappy.


    As for Alternate JJprise... this isn't the alternate universe. Stick to THIS universe...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    120 is a very short time span to go through 4 ships. That's 30 years a pop. While certainly not out of the realm of possibility, very unlikely for ships named Enterprise.

    They went through the A, B, C, and D in a space of 80 years.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Aris wrote:
    It should also be noted that the Enterprise isn't an old ship name. As the name for the flagship, they don't put it on a hull design that's been floating around for 80 years. If that monstrosity was going to be named Enterprise, it would have happened earlier in its production life.

    Agree... i mean, its like if the Enterprise E gets out of comission and they rename a old Miranda Class as Enterprise F.

    The other option its that the Federation its going really bad on the 26th century, and they keep comision old ships, for example, we can see a Prometheus class and a Nova Class on that episode.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    What?

    Enterprise (Kirk). Constitution-class. Flagship class.

    Enterprise A. Connie again as the Excelsior-class wasn't in full development yet.

    Enterprise B. Excelsior as there were many by this point. Excelsior was the new Flagship class.

    Enterprise C. Ambassador, flagship class.

    Enterprise D. Galaxy. Flagship.

    Enterprise E. Sovereign. Flagship.


    Every single one has been a flagship class. You could argue that the Excelsior was around when the A came about but it was really still a new ship and no others were available.

    You could argue that we don't know for sure that the Ambassador was a flagship but it seems likely.

    The J would likely follow the tradition. 120 years from now this class will be old and crappy.


    As for Alternate JJprise... this isn't the alternate universe. Stick to THIS universe...

    Here is a thought for you. The Universe class goes through a very long developement stage. Vessels are produced but they are experimental for the first 20 years. They then go into production and much like the Excelsior class they turn out to be a very successful ship design and are in production for 80 years or maybe even longer. The base Universe class mybe significantly different than the final version produced 100 years further in the future. Just as there have been changes in US Navy's Nimitz class or even the US Air Force's B-52, upgrades occur over but much of those improvements would be internal. When a design is very succesful it can in fact maintain long term dominance, like the Army's M-1 main battle tank.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    WarpVis wrote: »
    There is no problem integrating the Universe class. It is hard to estimate when the Universe class was first commisssioned, then how long it was before the J was built and commissioned, or how old the J was when it was seen in the 26th century.

    For a modern day example the Nimitz class carrier was first commissioned in 1975, the last of that class was commissioned in 2009. That is a period of 34 years between the first and last of class. It may not be unreasonable for a class of vessel to have an even longer time of actively being built and upgraded. We have no real means to judge the turnover rate of Starship designs in Starfleet. Then there is the length of time in service. Modern comparison would be the Aircraft Carrier USS Enterprise which is set to retire in2013 after 51 years of service. This is likely to be shorter than the Nimitz class. The Enterprise was the only one of her kind, and therefore more expensive to be maintained and updated. We already know that Starfleet easily keeps ships around for 70+ years (see Miranda and Excelsior classes) therefore a successful design may be actively built for 30 or 40 years and then each ship could be in service for another 70 or 80 years, meaning that it would not be extrordinary to have the first ships in the Universe class being built sometime shortly after 2409, and having an Enterprise J still active in 2529 or even later.

    Beyond the fact that the Universe looks nothing like any of the ships in 2409. Would you design your flagship to be a 90+ year old design? They may have used the Excelsior in the 24th Century, but certainly not as the flagship. Starfleet has continually shown that they always use their most advanced design for the Enteprise.

    WarpVis wrote: »
    Here is a thought for you. The Universe class goes through a very long developement stage. Vessels are produced but they are experimental for the first 20 years. They then go into production and much like the Excelsior class they turn out to be a very successful ship design and are in production for 80 years or maybe even longer. The base Universe class mybe significantly different than the final version produced 100 years further in the future. Just as there have been changes in US Navy's Nimitz class or even the US Air Force's B-52, upgrades occur over but much of those improvements would be internal. When a design is very succesful it can in fact maintain long term dominance, like the Army's M-1 main battle tank.

    But in the 90+ years after 2409, a better ship design would have come out and they would have assigned their flagship to one of those. It is only logical. Starfleet doesn't make their flagship the oldest rust buclket they can find.

    As for explanations of Time Travel, well,I guess we should be able to get that weird Time Pod form Future Tense, the timeship Aeon, and the Timeship Relativity, because time travel is now acceptable.
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