No, this post will not be about the queue. I know it's only been a few days since the 2.0 patch but there is a growing concern among the Ground PvP Community about some rather significant changes that appear to have taken place. It is unknown at this time whether these changes were on purpose (some sort of stealth nerf not listed in the patch notes) or an unintended side effect of other changes (meaning Cryptic may not even know what they have done).
Burst Damage Nerf
There seems to be some sort of overall damage reduction or mitigation. Here is the example I was given: A fully buffed, crouched, pre-patch Tac in a flanking position could sometimes "one shot" an opponent or, at least, wipe their shields and take a large portion of their health in one shot. Now, this same exact scenario seems to be doing somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 less damage, which means shields are taken down but health is left largely intact.
So... what does this mean? Is it time to celebrate because the dreaded ability of a Tac to sometimes "one shot" in a perfect situation has been reduced to relying on a lucky crit chance? No, not really. Keep reading.
KB Nerf
A sniper rifle's secondary shot has a 66% chance to knock back an opponent. Pre-patch, when this effect happened, the opponent would almost always get knocked down, resulting in an interrupt and giving the shooter a chance for a follow up shot. This was a key tactic for dealing burst damage and interrupting healers. Now, the KB effect (and possibly telekinesis) seems to almost always "push back" the opponent - not knocking them down. The result is that the opponent's actions can no longer be interrupted and, more often than not, produces the undesirable effect of moving the target out of range.
The end result of these two changes not only marginalizes the Tac class, taking away their ability to burst and a solid tactic used by good players to interrupt healing abilities/item use, but it effectively makes Engineers the uber class. If a Tac can't burst them down, good luck doing it with any other class. A good Engineer, utilizing his shield buff and recharge abilities, is now almost indestructible in any 1v1 situation, aside from relying on lucky crits/exposes.
Again, I don't know exactly what is going on as far as Cryptic's intentions. If these changes were unintentional, please let us know. The PvP community has its eye on the engineering reports and the promise to address PvP and bugs in upcoming patches. If they were, in fact, intended, then I am worried as to what this means for the future of the ground game and PvP as a whole. Besides the obvious "balance issue," it would mark the beginning of a new direction for STO where player skill and tactics are replaced with "a roll of the dice" as the sole factor affecting the outcome.
And while I'm at it, two more minor grievances regarding the 2.0 patch:
Sniper Roll
You can no longer start your sniper shot coming out of a roll. Instead, you must wait for your roll animation to complete before firing off the shot. Yes, this is minor but, while I can live without it, I have no idea why this would have been changed. I suspect it is an unintended side effect of the changes they made to "jump rolling" as listed in the patch notes. It was a fun thing to do and did give good players a slight "surprise" advantage when rolling around a corner.
Mk XI Ground Gear
30 emblems minimum per item. No new kits. Questionable gear (we get trade offs, not solid improvements between Mk X and Mk XI). Missing gear (example: there is no Mk XI [Cap] [Reg] [PBKB] shield). So, the question is: why would a dedicated Ground PvP'er submit to the massive daily mission grind for emblems? There is really no incentive.
In closing, I would just like to mention that I have never seen the morale of the Ground PvP Community so low as it is right now. Yes, we all understand that we are the red headed stepchild of STO but until now, this was a title we wore with pride. It is time we received some attention. Please, to this end, try to keep this thread constructive and on topic.
The perfect shot should never have been possible. Its ridiculously unbalanced for Tacs to be able to do that consistently. I played a match against some very good ground PVPers a few weeks ago who knew how to do the oneshotting very consistently against my very abused engineer, despite having reroute power to shields running with its big shield resistance. It was not remotely fun or balanced, and I haven't even considered requeuing for ground PVP after that match.
As for a KB nerf, I don't have a clue. I do know that NPC tacs, and of course Borg proto drones still do it plenty to be extremely frustrating if there are too many.
BorrowedTune, I really hope what you are saying is just some sort of fluke. I'm a Tac officer myself and without the ability to do damage we are kind of useless. When I actually get INTO a flippin PvP match I will be on the look out.
BorrowedTune, I really hope what you are saying is just some sort of fluke. I'm a Tac officer myself and without the ability to do damage we are kind of useless. When I actually get INTO a flippin PvP match I will be on the look out.
Please. Everyone get out there this weekend and test this stuff. Right now, due to the queue and respawn issues, it might be best to head to Otha for some in depth, controlled testing.
I agree with everything you said, and actually there are more problems than what you have listed. Ground PvP stinks so bad, if the match even starts (and it never does). It's so bad now that it has driven me to quit STO. As my last message, I'd like to make a special shoutout to everyone in Fister Sisters fleet, LORE fleet, CHC, and 7th Core. Also everyone else, you know who you are. Special shoutout to the whiner @arch_angel_gabriel (also known as K'Pax), and retired ground pounder Semtuk and Nene/Lena. Live long and prosper!
However, just a word of advice to others before they make any final decisions regarding their subscription: what is going on right now, post 2.0 patch, is very common in MMOs. It is expected that the days following a major patch are rocky. Give the devs time to correct things. Also realize that this is the time when devs and the company are listening most closely to player feedback.
Awesome posting BorrowedTune, everything you said completely matches my observations and tests performed in the few games since S2 & otha so far. They really killed ground pvp with season2.
The perfect shot should never have been possible. Its ridiculously unbalanced for Tacs to be able to do that consistently. I played a match against some very good ground PVPers a few weeks ago who knew how to do the oneshotting very consistently against my very abused engineer, despite having reroute power to shields running with its big shield resistance.
A tactical is a class thats based upon burst dps, if it can't burst through "reroute power to shields" then theres close no chance beating engineer as the duration of the skill is very close to its cooldown. Additional theres a kit with another shield recharge skill, so engineers can have 2 of those, both add a lot of mitigation.
Engineers (if played right and having points in ground skills) were already hard to take down before Season2.. this "perfect shot" only happened in certain conditions (flanking position / unprepared target / having debuffs on the target and sometimes even required criticals.). Also it required to make use of a fragile buff (ambush) and a sniper shot, both of these things can be countered.
There were actualy several ways how to prevent that from happening, like:
- don't let tacticals get into your back/side by watching radar and keeping track of the situation. You hear a voice saying "flanking damage", you got to take care of that if it isn't to late.
- watch out if they buff up ambush (theres a text message over their head!), if you see a tactical buff up ambush you have several ways to counter that. a) hide behind cover, the buff is short duration and lasts for exactly one shot. b) damage them first regardless with what, ambush is a fragile buff and dmg makes it drop, and it has a longer cooldown.
- you see a red line incoming to you (sniper shot!) roll sideways behind cover. ( a) rolling gives you an evasion bonus, b) if you had cover next to you that you can roll behind you wont get hit at all or deploy a cover shield!).
- good engineers, call their drones onto a tactical because: a) its damaging them, so they cant ambush and thus lowering their dmg. b) compared to engineers or science players they are the weak target as they can't heal shields or hp like the other classes, so they may even have to use hypos to keep up, which will lower their dmg even more as they can't use a cell then.
- engineers can cc good to prevent being shot at in the first place, WM, fuse armor (root+stun) and certain ground ability race traits can help a ton too to make the target pretty much useless.
I have fought skilled engineers 1on1 preS2 and postS2 and certain engineers were already preS2 really though to beat as tactical. Now postS2 if the engineer uses its kit you may as tac surrender right away as without burst dps you have like zero chance at all at ra/bg level.
It was not remotely fun or balanced, and I haven't even considered requeuing for ground PVP after that match.
Considering you said "haven't even considered requeuing for ground" i guess (no offense intended btw!) that you may be mostly space-skilled and probably don't play ground regular which may have put you at a tactical disadvantage in that game. I can tell you that theres quite a bunch of players in ground pvp that are mostly ground-skilled (by skill points) and some of them even play pretty much nothing else then groundpvp all day. In example before season2 i played around 10 hours each day ground pvp, if one tier died i just switched to an alt on a different tier, all my toons are close to maxed with skills in their ground skills, i did all my dailys on ground and when there was no queue game happening, hunting people in otha worked well to bypass time.
As for a KB nerf, I don't have a clue. I do know that NPC tacs, and of course Borg proto drones still do it plenty to be extremely frustrating if there are too many.
The OP is speaking about KB's in pvp. PVP and PVE are very different things, i don't mind if they reduce knockdowns in pve, but in pvp those things were important for the balance.. whatever the borg proto drones shoot, it doesn't look like a sniper shot either imo.. but its easy enough to solo the borg groups in otha on any class and for a skilled ground player all those STF's aren't really very challenging either - just the space part in KA is really tough for ground players (while space players surely have a lot less issues there).
It's so bad now that it has driven me to quit STO.
I'll miss you meeowww
It's sad that so many ground players quit these days.. on the other hand looking at these devastating changes (balance & queue) it seems almost as if cryptic wants to get rid of us ground pvp enthusiasts, the ground game is so dead now its just sad.
Okay, a few points, first, no I don't focus on ground in any character, its never been as fun as space. However I don't neglect it completely either. I don't expect to kick TRIBBLE and take names, but I expect to be moderately useful, and survive more than one shot, especially in an engineer.
I'm aware there is another shield buff power, but are you aware it lasts all of 3s and has a cooldown of 15? That is hardly something I can depend on, even if skilling it fully might extend it to 6s which I don't think it would.
And yes I know to shoot ambushing tac officers, I have one, I know how it works. But when you get knocked down and held repeatedly, you are pretty much SOL.
And even then, the point remains, you should never be able to one shot anyone when they aren't even exposed! I have my shield buff running, yet these guys were consistently getting through it with a single sniper shot. It wasn't two or three times, it wasn't a rare confluence of circumstances, it was pretty much every time they wanted to. I tried to figure out what they were doing, and counter it, but nothing worked.
This is supposed to be a team game. Tacs do excellent damage and have good team support. If you think that a tac is supposed to one shot people, then I sure don't want to play your vision of the game. Ground can be real fun if there isn't a lot of hold/knockback spam and people aren't one shotting each other. But when that does happen, forget it, I'm not playing that.
Tac One-Shots/damage
I have not noticed that big of a difference, having played about 15 games S2 so far. From what I can see, my KB is still interrupting also. One-Shots on crits are still happening just about as frequently. Keeping an eye on the people who sit there focused on me, and flanking their teammates still makes for fast kills. There is a definite advantage to being a focus target if I am with a decent team, and no one seems to have thought up counter tactics yet, which is cool. Engineers drop about the same for me and fighting "Good" healers seems about the same also...I can still kill them fairly fast between the sniper KB's and Telekinesis.
In short, I am scratching my head as to what the OP, and subsequent posters are talking about as it pertains to "nerf burst". Fully self buffed, my normal sniper still does around 690 for the shot. Add in debuffs and +200 for Ambush, it will hit for 1050 or so (up to 100 more if I place FoMM, which I rarely have the need to use). 440 shields +770 health = 1210 is the normal un-buffed target. A couple more normal shots is enough usually to do them in if they are not moving, healing, or shield buffing. Add a flank or crit to the scenario, and it is a one-shot...still...after patch. I have seen perhaps 20-25 one-shot kills so far, and it does not seem a whole lot less than pre-patch
Roll/Sniper:
I noticed this tactic seemed to produce an above average ratio of one-shot kills to those who utilized it, so I decided to check it out. After extensive testing on Otha, and other places (like deserted PvP instances) my numbers showed that even though the target may have you "focused" (programing term), and was not only aware, but looking at the tac using the tactic, the tactic produced an over 90% chance of a flank shot (out of 130 samplings, 12 shots did not hit for a flank shot). This would equate to a one-shot for most fully buffed, well geared tacs. Add to this that in my sampling, crits seemed around double the tacs normal percentage chance, I chalked it up to a game mechanic flaw, and surmised using it as a game exploit...hence, I never bothered to develop the tactic. If this flaw has been fixed, people who used the tactic are going to notice an extreme drop in one-shots, obviously. I certainly hope it was fixed, as even though I never developed and used it (those who play with me will attest they have never seen me use the tactic), it was annoying to be the victim of the tactic.
Engineer Godhood
Same tactics (normal, non-exploiting ones) work on engineers as pre-patch. CC+Expose tactic still bring them down fast. When in a pre-made, we always make sure our engineers have at least one Expose weapon running, and may even sub a tac for an expose sci. All in all, I do not see a drastic difference, but I definitely need more games before I can make a final analysis, so I will hold on the overall impact for now.
In short, I do not see the changes as that life altering. Of course, the queue issue and the spawn camping will have to be fixed VERY soon, or ground will die a fast death.
But after those issues are addressed, ground still seems (so far) balanced and fun.
Haven't had much of a chance to experience these changes yet, I quit STO about a month ago because I am primarily a ground PvPer and I noticed the ground PvP's pretty much dried up, as in I was waiting forever to get onto the queues and as I don't have a lot of time to play (long work hours, STO is supposed to be my chill-out time at the end of the day!) I just gave up.
Came back a few days ago when I got the email about the new patch, figuring it would improve things... woah was I wrong. Now I'm waiting even longer to get on PvP (which I could say a few things about, but its a topic for another thread), and when I do get on it's even less fun than before! From what I've noticed so far (bearing in mind I've only been able to get onto about 3 or 4 PvP's since the new patch, all with my tac) everything you guys are saying is true.
So far I've found the most effective way to knock someone over is with a bat'leth, which doesn't take much damage and obviously requires you to get close to them, but at least it interrupts healers and shield recharge etc, and allows a tac to get a good shot in.
I'm now trying to go in with my Eng but now the game isn't even letting me log in at all. *Sigh.*
PvP shouldn't be like this, it's hardly any fun anymore.
Tac One-Shots/damageI have not noticed that big of a difference, having played about 15 games S2 so far.
Its not about team games, its actually noticeable in 1on1.
Howto test the drop of in dmg: Go to otha, have a friend of the other faction stand in front of you with the back to you doing nothing, crouch behind him buff all up, debuff him, snipe. Compare results to before season2 (assuming you have ever done that before). I'd be very suprised if you don't notice the difference, its very noticeable for me and the tac friends i tested with.
From what I can see, my KB is still interrupting also.
The interrupt seems to be there, however the difference is rather that when you kb someone crouched, he warps backwards instead of getting knocked over. KB on a standing target still seems to knockdown. The interesting question there is if there is a delay before shooting again with the warp-backwards animation equal to the previous knockdown animation.
Engineers drop about the same for me and fighting "Good" healers seems about the same also...
Do your observations come from team games or 1on1's?
Because that makes quite a difference. I do notice a rather heavy difference in 1on1's. And true class balance is to be determined in 1on1's rather then in team games as theres to many factors that have nothing to do with it (i.e. premade vs pug).
Roll/Sniper:
I noticed this tactic seemed to produce an above average ratio of one-shot kills to those who utilized it, so I decided to check it out. After extensive testing on Otha, and other places (like deserted PvP instances) my numbers showed that even though the target may have you "focused" (programing term), and was not only aware, but looking at the tac using the tactic, the tactic produced an over 90% chance of a flank shot (out of 130 samplings, 12 shots did not hit for a flank shot).
Thats rather odd, after i heard about your discovery from someone (preS2), i tested that myself and rolling in front of the target did nothing for me to produce flank shots. However if rolling + snipe did that for you for some reason then they should have fixed rather that specific part (if there really was a bug) instead of making the whole move useless. Rolling around a corner (to get in a shooting position, while maintaining a defensive bonus from rolling) to quickly followup with a sniper shot is a rather logical way to attack.. now there seems to be a delay between rolling and sniping that wasn't there previously - that puts whoever rolls around a corner to attack at a tactical disadvantage (as the opponent has more time to land his snipe first and thus may interrupt yours).
Thats rather odd, after i heard about your discovery from someone (preS2), i tested that myself and rolling in front of the target did nothing for me to produce flank shots.
That's because you tested it wrong. You needed to test it like it was being used in the real game. You know, the one where you have one-shotted me from range twice...ever...in the history of all matches we have had opposing each other, and used this tactic well over 20 times to one-shot me and god knows how many other people? The proper way to test this is to target the person you want to attack, either by using /target, assisting off a teammate, or using the target enemy out of range function. Then you enter line of sight (pop around a corner) from a previously out of line of sight location by using the roll. What was happening was since you chain commands to initiate and finish the move, with the sniper shot chained last, the server actually had the information ahead of time to position you and execute the shot. The person you were attacking (let's call them victim, because that term is very apropos) on the other hand did not have the luxury of chaining commands to the server (because in order to do so, they would have to do a like chain of commands that would carry them into line of sight and execute an attack command), so the lag between their client and the server made their client take up to a second to catch up and recognize the fact you were actually in line of sight now and attack-able. This allowed not only the person using the tactic to execute an uninterrupted sniper shot (a timed attack that's "supposed" to be interrupt-able) without receiving any preemptive attack (negating their ambush AND possibly their Sniper shot), but also if the attackers end position after the roll was anywhere but directly, and I mean directly in front of the victim, they executed a flank attack.
From what I see, you attribute the one-shot kill from this tactic to having greater defense? That is an insult to my (and most peoples) intelligence...as certainly you (and other people who perfected this technique), above anyone else, knew the high percentage of devastating one-shot kills the technique was granting you. How could "Defense" be giving you such a potent hit? I mean....paleeeeze...
Ohh...and...
Rolling around a corner (to get in a shooting position, while maintaining a defensive bonus from rolling) to quickly followup with a sniper shot is a rather logical way to attack..
If you maintained defensive bonus and knew it (I never tested this, as it seemed irrelevant with the "roller" getting an uninterrupted sniper shot anyways) from using this technique while entering a prone position and shooting, this also was a game mechanic exploit almost certainly caused by the same client/server lag condition explained above. Logically how in the world can someone execute an ATTACK move (crouching) and maintain a defensive bonus? The defensive bonus for a roll is supposed to be identical to the roll animation. No where does it say that rolling institutes a time driven defense. Just like other similar tactics that offer defense, once the defense action ceases, the defense ceases.
Bottom line, rolling was never intended to be used as a "close and attack" maneuver, especially one that granted uninterrupted close range attacks, gave instant flanks, and allowed you to use purely offensive moves while simultaneously maintaining a defensive bonus. That's what lunge and pounce are for. If cryptic has indeed implemented a short GCD to follow a roll (also quite logical), then both these holes probably have been closed, and everything is "working as intended"...thank God. The GCD now allows the victim the needed time to "catch up" lag wise and deliver a riflebutt or shoot the face of the person who just rolled in front of them and is getting prone. The GCD also is giving the victim the time on his client side to recognize the attacker and not fall victim to the lag induced flank shot.
Do your observations come from team games or 1on1's?
Because that makes quite a difference. I do notice a rather heavy difference in 1on1's. And true class balance is to be determined in 1on1's rather then in team games as theres to many factors that have nothing to do with it (i.e. premade vs pug).
To quote Surgery (countless times in game...countless) "Last I looked, this is a team game", heh
Balance in this game seems to be basically centered on team play, as in PvP instances (not the buggy TRIBBLE Otha training grounds), the game cannot even START unless 2 TEAMS join...
Can an Escort take out a well manned Cruiser 1v1? Or a Sci 1v1?
I dunno...perhaps the sailors can weigh in on that one.
But, to address your "concern"...
What we have here is a slight burst damage nerf. Before this patch, a certain "cookie cutter" tac build was able to take out ANY class 1v1 9 times out of 10 with minimal effort, utilizing burst. Now this does not work as well I am assuming? Was this even "balanced 1v1" to begin with?
Have you tried changing kits and weapons outside of the "cookie cutter" build and seeing if you can defeat them? Perhaps a CC kit on an engineer with a Bat and Sniper for instance?
Have you tried changing *cough*...Tactics?
The irony, I know...
I run with 4 kits, stun+expose weapons, and a Bat.
Security and Squad leader kits greatly improve team survivability and CC/intense burst for bunker breaking, where as an Operative kit can allow you to get into a flank position unseen and throw chaos into the ranks of your foe. Switch to a stunner/exposer and snipe the exposed...etc, etc, etc...
In a 1v1, I am also careful with consumables so I can counter my foe at the right time if need be also.
But bottom line....the tactics I have always used for 1v1 have not changed. They vary greatly depending on my foe. A small nerf in burst is going to have...and has had (since I guess this "nerf" is indeed real...) ZERO effect on these existing tactics for me and I still am recognizing higher kills than deaths in any 1v1 scenario, just like before the S2 patch.
If it is a game breaker for you, I seriously do not know what to say without coming off as very insulting.
I agree with everything you said, and actually there are more problems than what you have listed. Ground PvP stinks so bad, if the match even starts (and it never does). It's so bad now that it has driven me to quit STO. As my last message, I'd like to make a special shoutout to everyone in Fister Sisters fleet, LORE fleet, CHC, and 7th Core. Also everyone else, you know who you are. Special shoutout to the whiner @arch_angel_gabriel (also known as K'Pax), and retired ground pounder Semtuk and Nene/Lena. Live long and prosper!
The Sisters cant leave.. you are the only ones CHC looks forward to pvping against tbh....
..so the lag between their client and the server made their client take up to a second to catch up and recognize the fact you were actually in line of sight now and attack-able. This allowed not only the person using the tactic to execute an uninterrupted sniper shot..
Now you even go as far as blaming lag, that must be the most far-fetched whining i've ever read about coming around a corner lol. Theres btw an option that helps with facing into the right direction already before the opponent comes around the corner.
From what I see, you attribute the one-shot kill from this tactic to having greater defense? That is an insult to my (and most peoples) intelligence..
Your reading skill seems to match your skill in making paragraphs. So lets try again:
"Rolling around a corner (to get in a shooting position, while maintaining a defensive bonus from rolling) to quickly followup with a sniper shot is a rather logical way to attack."
Note: Do you see the word one-shot's there? No? Its about rolling, exactly, but for some reason you seem to keep mixing those separate changes (both not mentioned in the patch notes) together. I may admit that the word 'maintaining' may have confused you a bit there, but i speak about maintaining it while moving into a shooting position.
Situation: you are in cover, your opponent is behind a corner, he may have friends too. He saw you, has you pre-targeted and waits for you to make the first move.
So you want to attack, as your opponent doesn't seem to want to make the first step, so you have the following options:
- slowly slide around the corner => this could be problematic as he may get reinforcements and also makes your timing very predictable.
- walk in => this will make him land the first shot and you will lose this 1on1 situation.
- roll in and follow up with a shot.
Advantage of rolling in: if he managed to hit you first *while* you roll in or one of his teammates or a drone/turret/anything else you had a defensive bonus and thus may still have a chance to win compared to the other options - thus its a logical choice.
The thing with rolling is, its not about sniping within the roll animation (i don't think that was the case preS2 either) its rather that you can shoot as soon as the roll is done, right now there seems to be an additional 1-2 seconds where you can't shoot, i suspect that rather to be a unintended side effect of that roll-jump (anti-climbing change) btw as otherwise they probably should have mentioned it in the patch notes, it could also be a bit lag related as S2 seemed to introduce quite a bit of additional lag.
Bottom line, rolling was never intended to be used as a "close and attack" maneuver, especially one that granted uninterrupted close range attacks, gave instant flanks, and allowed you to use purely offensive moves while simultaneously maintaining a defensive bonus.
"uninterrupted close range attacks", "instant flanks", "close and attack", your post really made me smile, I don't know what game you have played the last months but it clearly wasn't the same one obviously. Rolling to someone didn't made you immune to stun phasers/kb's/rb's etc, neither was it 'instant'.
The GCD now allows the victim the needed time to "catch up" lag wise and deliver a riflebutt or shoot the face of the person who just rolled in front of them and is getting prone.
memo to you, riflebutt was nerfed. But yea now we play the "whoever moves first loses" game... i remember you speaking about Mexican style standoffs before.. maybe you like that.
Balance in this game seems to be basically centered on team play, as in PvP instances (not the buggy TRIBBLE Otha training grounds), the game cannot even START unless 2 TEAMS join...
Can an Escort take out a well manned Cruiser 1v1? Or a Sci 1v1?
Hmm i recently saw a dev posting that sounded like 1on1 pvp seems to be coming soon, finally.
I won't comment on the space balance either im not a spacer and it would be off topic here, theres different opinions about it on the forums anyway.
I could now quote your "insult intelligence" statement, as you should know that class balance has several levels and 1on1 clearly is one of the most basic ones to consider especially as the game features not just team pvp but also warzones too.. but i think its not worth it to argue with you anymore about it, maybe you just lack the gaming experience to know (no offense intended) or don't care enough about the tac class.
What we have here is a slight burst damage nerf. Before this patch, a certain "cookie cutter" tac build was able to take out ANY class 1v1 9 times out of 10 with minimal effort, utilizing burst.
Hmm incredible, finally we get a step forward, you admit there was something changed too. That you try to sell this TRIBBLE as a fix although theres not a single word in the patch notes about that change is quite sad tho.
I also don't know who you dueled with but if you won 9 out of 10 times then i think you may have been challenged the wrong opponents. Maybe i should try to convince some decent engi friends to challenge you to some 1on1s.
Have you tried changing kits and weapons outside of the "cookie cutter" build and seeing if you can defeat them? Perhaps a CC kit on an engineer with a Bat and Sniper for instance?
Have you tried changing *cough*...Tactics?
The irony, I know...
I run with 4 kits, stun+expose weapons, and a Bat.
Aww that almost sounds like a childish invitation to compare who carries more extra kits and weapons around. Your cookie cutter statement doesn't hit me btw, my tacs are all full ground builds as i care absolutely zero for space, i enjoy meleeing too and you would be surprised how much extra gear i carry around with me.
Security and Squad leader kits greatly improve team survivability and CC/intense burst for bunker breaking, where as an Operative kit can allow you to get into a flank position unseen and throw chaos into the ranks of your foe. Switch to a stunner/exposer and snipe the exposed...etc, etc, etc...
Funny that you pull the operative card while the cloak-ambush-flank burst tactic in my opinion actually took quite a huge efficiency hit in usefulness due to the dmg changes as you will take quite a while longer to take anyone down compared to before with that.. even slow healers may react in time now, so good luck trying that against any decent team that stays together.
I for one applaud all the nerfs. No "game breakers" for me. I see the all around "nerfs" as a non-issue.
If you can't deal, don't...move on (One could only hope....sigh). Whining that you did not see something in the patch notes...whatever. Cry more *sniff*
If you deny all the roll/sniper one-shots you used to get, fine...deny it. Falling victim to it numerous times, I know you are lying if you do. Goes hand in hand with your observed character, so it would be not great surprise to see more denial...but...you know what? It is a dead horse now!
Does not matter...problems fixed!
Cryptic did the "fix" on the Roll/Snipe for some reason...why in the world would they do such a thing?!?!?
Why would they break such a harmless tactic that any logical superior minded player would use?
If the "insanity" and separation from reality I posted as the problem was not the reason, perhaps you can ask them what was the problem, and why they broke your tactic.
You posture your own theory...I don't care, it is finally fixed and I no longer have to face your (and your buddies who use it) lame TRIBBLE one-shot tactic. Awesome! I could not be happier.
Hope you can "understand" that...short and simple, and frankly the whole "changes" has made my month...it is awesome. For someone who lacks gaming experience, is delusional, has no idea what balance is, etc., ad nausium...I indeed suck and have no clue...but I am fine with that after this patch, heh.
It brings me great joy!
Play on!
Or not...whatever...lmao!
Wow, if you changed the word "Tac" to "Escort" and "Engineer" to "Cruiser" you'd have almost carbon copies of the posts that took place after the first round of so-called balance changes that occurred in space PvP. Honestly, I'm sorry the attention of the DEV's has now been focused on you as us space PvP'ers know all too well what happens when Snix and Co. get their hands on your beloved game...welcome to the club gentlemen.
The changes really are not that drastic...it is just the "OMG, I can't Pew Pew like I could!" people who are whining. Actually all the changes were for the better from what I can see so far, and I carry 6 Tacs and 3 Sci (Sci's lay dormant most of the time).
I think the OP was just looking for clarification, as he is skilled enough to compensate, and the other main whiner should either /wrists or leave, doing us all a favor (first option is the biggest favor).
The changes to riflebutt alone hopefully will get more interest in ground.
The biggest bork is the respawn points and queue system right now, but I know that affects the sailors just about as bad.
Let's hope they get that fixed soon, and chalk the minor ground changes as either "Good", or "non-issue"
Wow, if you changed the word "Tac" to "Escort" and "Engineer" to "Cruiser" you'd have almost carbon copies of the posts that took place after the first round of so-called balance changes that occurred in space PvP. Honestly, I'm sorry the attention of the DEV's has now been focused on you as us space PvP'ers know all too well what happens when Snix and Co. get their hands on your beloved game...welcome to the club gentlemen.
The big difference here is ... dozens of people tested Snix's well documented, well communicated changes.
Practically no one tested these vague and not very well communicated changes until after they went live.
Ground PVP ... getting the business from the devs and not even getting a fair warning about it.
If you deny all the roll/sniper one-shots you used to get, fine...deny it.
So where exactly were i even talking to you about one-shots ?
I obviously can't deny one-shotting you when i wasn't even talking to you about one-shots.
perhaps you can ask them what was the problem, and why they broke your tactic.
Thats pretty much what this thread did, before you started trolling it and denied that anything changed until you finally admitted that something changed. The intention obviously is to figure out what changed, as we weren't informed - we have to gather these information ourself, and hope to get a developer to clarify why these things were changed and if they are even meant to be pvp changes rather then bugs or sideefects of pve changes.
Never said the "changes" did not happen, just said I did not (and still don't) notice them. They don't break the game for me, but as everyone knows, I suck real bad at ground anyways...so my opinion means diddly. Half the people already are convinced I rely on a 3rd party program to make me invincible and produce damage that is impossible (I will be SO glad when cryptic institutes the exploit checker), so obviously my understanding of "how to play" and "what mechanic does what" is non-existent if I truly rely on crutches like that, eh?
The roll/snipe thing I am sure was fixed to address a PvE thing (PvE being SO hard and all), or is an unintended consequence of fixing something else (jumping and leaping...AND shooting a sniper....oh wait...that's not in there...my bad). The tactic was always meant to be a one-shot close tactic I am sure. It makes perfect sense now that I study it, that initiating a defensive move, followed by offensive moves should mix to create a devastating one-shot attack on much higher frequency than just using the offensive move chain on its own. I surprise myself with my own stupidity sometimes...honestly!
I am just too stupid to realize it and my observations are not only skewed by my stupidity, and my haxxors, but also my absolute failure to understand even the basics of computer gaming.
Sad thing is, when most companies fix an exploit, they do not give details on the fix because knowing these details gives "smart/genius" (like you mikiy) people information they could use to find further exploits (not saying you would do that, of course...). So if that indeed was the reason for some of the changes, I would not hold my breath for a Dev explanation.
You can call it trolling mikiy, but let's be honest....I am too stupid to troll even. All I did was post my observations, and you should have been smart enough to "consider the source" and shrug it off to ignorance and stupidity I would think.
My observations still stand, and I am DEEPLY sorry these changes have caused you so much trouble, and skewed "balance" so bad for you.
DEEPLY sorry. I am SO sad, I think I will go and find a abused, cute little kitten to rescue now.
I don't have too much to add that BorrowedTune and mikiy haven't already addressed. Cryptic we are directly addressing your development team. Every 'fix', every 'improvement' you make to ground play has backfired. You need to stop taking things too far. And making changes that nerf a class this considerably should have been posted to patch notes on Tribble server - that's just inexcusable.
It just adds kerosene to the fire that you've still not fixed the one actual bug in ground play - multiple spawning drones for enginneers. And we still have leechers as well.
/signed with everything I have. Please start considering what your unnecessary 'ideas' will do to ground PvP in this game. A lot more of it goes on than just your STF ground areas nobody bothers to spec for.
P.S. I'm posting just after your August 1 patch, in which several aspects of ground maps, all of which were functioning perfectly before, have been disrupted (I submitted bug reports on them) - arenas now read 15 kills to end the map instead of the intended (and do I have to specify correct?) 40, and you've managed to make the only non-arena ground map unplayable as shanty isn't accepting the proper number of players on each side, despite what the queuing system is supposed to do now. You just can't add a patch that doesn't destroy our ground experience a little more, huh?
I want to add that I like the fact that balanced games will (eventually when these bugs stop) be the norm, I think that will generate a larger player base for ground games in the long run. But reverse your changes to ground combat itself, and start fixing the real issues.
Well, Shanty is broken now. Can't grab the virus or upload it to either of the enemy computers. Feds were rezing at the mainframe while klinks seemed to be rezing at the normal spot. On the bright side, it's still 60 points... oh wait... reference "virus not working" above.
There seems to be some sort of overall damage reduction or mitigation. Here is the example I was given: A fully buffed, crouched, pre-patch Tac in a flanking position could sometimes "one shot" an opponent or, at least, wipe their shields and take a large portion of their health in one shot. Now, this same exact scenario seems to be doing somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 less damage, which means shields are taken down but health is left largely intact.
I've definitely noticed the drop in tac dps since Season 2.0 - and its pretty obvious, tacs being the dps class in STO, that this change has shifted the balance towards the other classes.
I'm not going to get into whether this dps change should or should not be implemented - we'll get a hundred different opinions there. No doubt many players that have faced a skilled high dps tac (like mikiy) would be celebrating this change right now, cos it tips the scales in their favour, as would those that prefer playing eng's or sci's.
I have maxed out characters (RA-VA) in all three classes / and on both factions, so I don't favour any particular class over the other, but see this as a huge issue when significant changes like these are made without mention of it anywhere in a patch note before go live. We should at least have been given the opporunity to test the changes before its too late. There should have been some opportunity for discussion here.
Welcome to MMO PvP.
Changes like this have in the past, even in STO...1.1 Exploit/healing nerfs/buffs, happen constantly.
When balance skews, the next OP class gets the axe next upgrade patch, so moving to the Class/Build flavor of the month will just bring you more pain next patch if this stuff gets to you. After going through this for 4 years in other large MMO's, my "limited" experience has taught me you either move on or adapt. Funny thing is, the 1.1 nerfs were hella more drastic than the 2.0 nerfs....and no one seemed to whine then.
This patch apparently removed an exploit, granted hold resist where it was supposed to be granted in design, and lowered Tac burst slightly. Burst was lowered SO slightly, I play 6 tacs on all tiers and did not even notice them...still haven't.
You can cry all you want about getting info so you can "input" after you test, but the bottom line is, the devs have something you never will.
The Database.
Decisions for mechanic changes are driven by the database. If mined correctly, it gives a perfect picture of "balance", and if the game is acting as designed. It also will show erred algorithm coefficients that skew balance as level caps rise (though the mechanics behind STO's PvP are so simple, I sorta doubt this will ever happen...) If they overcompensate on this patch, it will be re-compensated next patch. Any MMO worth its salt will watch for new tactics that skew intended balance after a fix and implement the next fine tune. Player input will mean next to nothing. All player input is used for is to realize exploit holes and bugs the new changes may have introduced.
All STO is beholding to us is to try to create a fun, balanced PvP experience. Not to post the most intimate details of upcoming changes so we can cry about them, or use the knowledge to cheat the system by finding holes in it.
If you are going to PvP in a larger MMO, changes like these are a part of life (I know this is news to a lot of people in this MMO).
Complaints SHOULD not merit any moves on the devs part, as the data will tell the true story in the end anyways. Just be happy that PvP changes will not effect PvE changes in this game for quite awhile, or vice versa, unless they decide to make PvE here actually challenging.
Like I said, this is probably news to a lot of you....so it's time to get over all the "shock", quit being indignant because you could not attempt to "theory-craft" the latest changes enough. That happens here in a minor way with some spacers...very minor...but grounders? Give me a break...the concept "theory-crafting" happens in any way for ground PvP is laughable. There are some seriously hyper-inflated egos here if they think they are actually participating in ground PvP "theory-crafting"
Adapt, Change to the new flavor of the month, or get out. One can hope that marketing will help keep an influx of new players to fill the gaps.
The intention obviously is to figure out what changed, as we weren't informed - we have to gather these information ourself, and hope to get a developer to clarify why these things were changed and if they are even meant to be pvp changes rather then bugs or sideefects of pve changes.
This, so this. We want full disclosure. It is difficult to bring up a complaint when you deny the opposition the information to do so - what are well known snake-oil tricks doing in my Star Trek??
Comments
As for a KB nerf, I don't have a clue. I do know that NPC tacs, and of course Borg proto drones still do it plenty to be extremely frustrating if there are too many.
Please. Everyone get out there this weekend and test this stuff. Right now, due to the queue and respawn issues, it might be best to head to Otha for some in depth, controlled testing.
Please list them here in this thread. It's time for us "Ground Pounders" to clank some pots together and make some noise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j6gi4cY5KY
However, just a word of advice to others before they make any final decisions regarding their subscription: what is going on right now, post 2.0 patch, is very common in MMOs. It is expected that the days following a major patch are rocky. Give the devs time to correct things. Also realize that this is the time when devs and the company are listening most closely to player feedback.
A tactical is a class thats based upon burst dps, if it can't burst through "reroute power to shields" then theres close no chance beating engineer as the duration of the skill is very close to its cooldown. Additional theres a kit with another shield recharge skill, so engineers can have 2 of those, both add a lot of mitigation.
Engineers (if played right and having points in ground skills) were already hard to take down before Season2.. this "perfect shot" only happened in certain conditions (flanking position / unprepared target / having debuffs on the target and sometimes even required criticals.). Also it required to make use of a fragile buff (ambush) and a sniper shot, both of these things can be countered.
There were actualy several ways how to prevent that from happening, like:
- don't let tacticals get into your back/side by watching radar and keeping track of the situation. You hear a voice saying "flanking damage", you got to take care of that if it isn't to late.
- watch out if they buff up ambush (theres a text message over their head!), if you see a tactical buff up ambush you have several ways to counter that. a) hide behind cover, the buff is short duration and lasts for exactly one shot. b) damage them first regardless with what, ambush is a fragile buff and dmg makes it drop, and it has a longer cooldown.
- you see a red line incoming to you (sniper shot!) roll sideways behind cover. ( a) rolling gives you an evasion bonus, b) if you had cover next to you that you can roll behind you wont get hit at all or deploy a cover shield!).
- good engineers, call their drones onto a tactical because: a) its damaging them, so they cant ambush and thus lowering their dmg. b) compared to engineers or science players they are the weak target as they can't heal shields or hp like the other classes, so they may even have to use hypos to keep up, which will lower their dmg even more as they can't use a cell then.
- engineers can cc good to prevent being shot at in the first place, WM, fuse armor (root+stun) and certain ground ability race traits can help a ton too to make the target pretty much useless.
I have fought skilled engineers 1on1 preS2 and postS2 and certain engineers were already preS2 really though to beat as tactical. Now postS2 if the engineer uses its kit you may as tac surrender right away as without burst dps you have like zero chance at all at ra/bg level.
Considering you said "haven't even considered requeuing for ground" i guess (no offense intended btw!) that you may be mostly space-skilled and probably don't play ground regular which may have put you at a tactical disadvantage in that game. I can tell you that theres quite a bunch of players in ground pvp that are mostly ground-skilled (by skill points) and some of them even play pretty much nothing else then groundpvp all day. In example before season2 i played around 10 hours each day ground pvp, if one tier died i just switched to an alt on a different tier, all my toons are close to maxed with skills in their ground skills, i did all my dailys on ground and when there was no queue game happening, hunting people in otha worked well to bypass time.
The OP is speaking about KB's in pvp. PVP and PVE are very different things, i don't mind if they reduce knockdowns in pve, but in pvp those things were important for the balance.. whatever the borg proto drones shoot, it doesn't look like a sniper shot either imo.. but its easy enough to solo the borg groups in otha on any class and for a skilled ground player all those STF's aren't really very challenging either - just the space part in KA is really tough for ground players (while space players surely have a lot less issues there).
I'll miss you meeowww
It's sad that so many ground players quit these days.. on the other hand looking at these devastating changes (balance & queue) it seems almost as if cryptic wants to get rid of us ground pvp enthusiasts, the ground game is so dead now its just sad.
er..
Okay, a few points, first, no I don't focus on ground in any character, its never been as fun as space. However I don't neglect it completely either. I don't expect to kick TRIBBLE and take names, but I expect to be moderately useful, and survive more than one shot, especially in an engineer.
I'm aware there is another shield buff power, but are you aware it lasts all of 3s and has a cooldown of 15? That is hardly something I can depend on, even if skilling it fully might extend it to 6s which I don't think it would.
And yes I know to shoot ambushing tac officers, I have one, I know how it works. But when you get knocked down and held repeatedly, you are pretty much SOL.
And even then, the point remains, you should never be able to one shot anyone when they aren't even exposed! I have my shield buff running, yet these guys were consistently getting through it with a single sniper shot. It wasn't two or three times, it wasn't a rare confluence of circumstances, it was pretty much every time they wanted to. I tried to figure out what they were doing, and counter it, but nothing worked.
This is supposed to be a team game. Tacs do excellent damage and have good team support. If you think that a tac is supposed to one shot people, then I sure don't want to play your vision of the game. Ground can be real fun if there isn't a lot of hold/knockback spam and people aren't one shotting each other. But when that does happen, forget it, I'm not playing that.
I have not noticed that big of a difference, having played about 15 games S2 so far. From what I can see, my KB is still interrupting also. One-Shots on crits are still happening just about as frequently. Keeping an eye on the people who sit there focused on me, and flanking their teammates still makes for fast kills. There is a definite advantage to being a focus target if I am with a decent team, and no one seems to have thought up counter tactics yet, which is cool. Engineers drop about the same for me and fighting "Good" healers seems about the same also...I can still kill them fairly fast between the sniper KB's and Telekinesis.
In short, I am scratching my head as to what the OP, and subsequent posters are talking about as it pertains to "nerf burst". Fully self buffed, my normal sniper still does around 690 for the shot. Add in debuffs and +200 for Ambush, it will hit for 1050 or so (up to 100 more if I place FoMM, which I rarely have the need to use). 440 shields +770 health = 1210 is the normal un-buffed target. A couple more normal shots is enough usually to do them in if they are not moving, healing, or shield buffing. Add a flank or crit to the scenario, and it is a one-shot...still...after patch. I have seen perhaps 20-25 one-shot kills so far, and it does not seem a whole lot less than pre-patch
Roll/Sniper:
I noticed this tactic seemed to produce an above average ratio of one-shot kills to those who utilized it, so I decided to check it out. After extensive testing on Otha, and other places (like deserted PvP instances) my numbers showed that even though the target may have you "focused" (programing term), and was not only aware, but looking at the tac using the tactic, the tactic produced an over 90% chance of a flank shot (out of 130 samplings, 12 shots did not hit for a flank shot). This would equate to a one-shot for most fully buffed, well geared tacs. Add to this that in my sampling, crits seemed around double the tacs normal percentage chance, I chalked it up to a game mechanic flaw, and surmised using it as a game exploit...hence, I never bothered to develop the tactic. If this flaw has been fixed, people who used the tactic are going to notice an extreme drop in one-shots, obviously. I certainly hope it was fixed, as even though I never developed and used it (those who play with me will attest they have never seen me use the tactic), it was annoying to be the victim of the tactic.
Engineer Godhood
Same tactics (normal, non-exploiting ones) work on engineers as pre-patch. CC+Expose tactic still bring them down fast. When in a pre-made, we always make sure our engineers have at least one Expose weapon running, and may even sub a tac for an expose sci. All in all, I do not see a drastic difference, but I definitely need more games before I can make a final analysis, so I will hold on the overall impact for now.
In short, I do not see the changes as that life altering. Of course, the queue issue and the spawn camping will have to be fixed VERY soon, or ground will die a fast death.
But after those issues are addressed, ground still seems (so far) balanced and fun.
Came back a few days ago when I got the email about the new patch, figuring it would improve things... woah was I wrong. Now I'm waiting even longer to get on PvP (which I could say a few things about, but its a topic for another thread), and when I do get on it's even less fun than before! From what I've noticed so far (bearing in mind I've only been able to get onto about 3 or 4 PvP's since the new patch, all with my tac) everything you guys are saying is true.
So far I've found the most effective way to knock someone over is with a bat'leth, which doesn't take much damage and obviously requires you to get close to them, but at least it interrupts healers and shield recharge etc, and allows a tac to get a good shot in.
I'm now trying to go in with my Eng but now the game isn't even letting me log in at all. *Sigh.*
PvP shouldn't be like this, it's hardly any fun anymore.
Its not about team games, its actually noticeable in 1on1.
Howto test the drop of in dmg: Go to otha, have a friend of the other faction stand in front of you with the back to you doing nothing, crouch behind him buff all up, debuff him, snipe. Compare results to before season2 (assuming you have ever done that before). I'd be very suprised if you don't notice the difference, its very noticeable for me and the tac friends i tested with.
The interrupt seems to be there, however the difference is rather that when you kb someone crouched, he warps backwards instead of getting knocked over. KB on a standing target still seems to knockdown. The interesting question there is if there is a delay before shooting again with the warp-backwards animation equal to the previous knockdown animation.
Do your observations come from team games or 1on1's?
Because that makes quite a difference. I do notice a rather heavy difference in 1on1's. And true class balance is to be determined in 1on1's rather then in team games as theres to many factors that have nothing to do with it (i.e. premade vs pug).
Thats rather odd, after i heard about your discovery from someone (preS2), i tested that myself and rolling in front of the target did nothing for me to produce flank shots. However if rolling + snipe did that for you for some reason then they should have fixed rather that specific part (if there really was a bug) instead of making the whole move useless. Rolling around a corner (to get in a shooting position, while maintaining a defensive bonus from rolling) to quickly followup with a sniper shot is a rather logical way to attack.. now there seems to be a delay between rolling and sniping that wasn't there previously - that puts whoever rolls around a corner to attack at a tactical disadvantage (as the opponent has more time to land his snipe first and thus may interrupt yours).
From what I see, you attribute the one-shot kill from this tactic to having greater defense? That is an insult to my (and most peoples) intelligence...as certainly you (and other people who perfected this technique), above anyone else, knew the high percentage of devastating one-shot kills the technique was granting you. How could "Defense" be giving you such a potent hit? I mean....paleeeeze...
Ohh...and... If you maintained defensive bonus and knew it (I never tested this, as it seemed irrelevant with the "roller" getting an uninterrupted sniper shot anyways) from using this technique while entering a prone position and shooting, this also was a game mechanic exploit almost certainly caused by the same client/server lag condition explained above. Logically how in the world can someone execute an ATTACK move (crouching) and maintain a defensive bonus? The defensive bonus for a roll is supposed to be identical to the roll animation. No where does it say that rolling institutes a time driven defense. Just like other similar tactics that offer defense, once the defense action ceases, the defense ceases.
Bottom line, rolling was never intended to be used as a "close and attack" maneuver, especially one that granted uninterrupted close range attacks, gave instant flanks, and allowed you to use purely offensive moves while simultaneously maintaining a defensive bonus. That's what lunge and pounce are for. If cryptic has indeed implemented a short GCD to follow a roll (also quite logical), then both these holes probably have been closed, and everything is "working as intended"...thank God. The GCD now allows the victim the needed time to "catch up" lag wise and deliver a riflebutt or shoot the face of the person who just rolled in front of them and is getting prone. The GCD also is giving the victim the time on his client side to recognize the attacker and not fall victim to the lag induced flank shot.
To quote Surgery (countless times in game...countless) "Last I looked, this is a team game", heh
Balance in this game seems to be basically centered on team play, as in PvP instances (not the buggy TRIBBLE Otha training grounds), the game cannot even START unless 2 TEAMS join...
Can an Escort take out a well manned Cruiser 1v1? Or a Sci 1v1?
I dunno...perhaps the sailors can weigh in on that one.
But, to address your "concern"...
What we have here is a slight burst damage nerf. Before this patch, a certain "cookie cutter" tac build was able to take out ANY class 1v1 9 times out of 10 with minimal effort, utilizing burst. Now this does not work as well I am assuming? Was this even "balanced 1v1" to begin with?
Have you tried changing kits and weapons outside of the "cookie cutter" build and seeing if you can defeat them? Perhaps a CC kit on an engineer with a Bat and Sniper for instance?
Have you tried changing *cough*...Tactics?
The irony, I know...
I run with 4 kits, stun+expose weapons, and a Bat.
Security and Squad leader kits greatly improve team survivability and CC/intense burst for bunker breaking, where as an Operative kit can allow you to get into a flank position unseen and throw chaos into the ranks of your foe. Switch to a stunner/exposer and snipe the exposed...etc, etc, etc...
In a 1v1, I am also careful with consumables so I can counter my foe at the right time if need be also.
But bottom line....the tactics I have always used for 1v1 have not changed. They vary greatly depending on my foe. A small nerf in burst is going to have...and has had (since I guess this "nerf" is indeed real...) ZERO effect on these existing tactics for me and I still am recognizing higher kills than deaths in any 1v1 scenario, just like before the S2 patch.
If it is a game breaker for you, I seriously do not know what to say without coming off as very insulting.
The Sisters cant leave.. you are the only ones CHC looks forward to pvping against tbh....
Now you even go as far as blaming lag, that must be the most far-fetched whining i've ever read about coming around a corner lol. Theres btw an option that helps with facing into the right direction already before the opponent comes around the corner.
Your reading skill seems to match your skill in making paragraphs. So lets try again:
"Rolling around a corner (to get in a shooting position, while maintaining a defensive bonus from rolling) to quickly followup with a sniper shot is a rather logical way to attack."
Note: Do you see the word one-shot's there? No? Its about rolling, exactly, but for some reason you seem to keep mixing those separate changes (both not mentioned in the patch notes) together. I may admit that the word 'maintaining' may have confused you a bit there, but i speak about maintaining it while moving into a shooting position.
Situation: you are in cover, your opponent is behind a corner, he may have friends too. He saw you, has you pre-targeted and waits for you to make the first move.
So you want to attack, as your opponent doesn't seem to want to make the first step, so you have the following options:
- slowly slide around the corner => this could be problematic as he may get reinforcements and also makes your timing very predictable.
- walk in => this will make him land the first shot and you will lose this 1on1 situation.
- roll in and follow up with a shot.
Advantage of rolling in: if he managed to hit you first *while* you roll in or one of his teammates or a drone/turret/anything else you had a defensive bonus and thus may still have a chance to win compared to the other options - thus its a logical choice.
The thing with rolling is, its not about sniping within the roll animation (i don't think that was the case preS2 either) its rather that you can shoot as soon as the roll is done, right now there seems to be an additional 1-2 seconds where you can't shoot, i suspect that rather to be a unintended side effect of that roll-jump (anti-climbing change) btw as otherwise they probably should have mentioned it in the patch notes, it could also be a bit lag related as S2 seemed to introduce quite a bit of additional lag.
"uninterrupted close range attacks", "instant flanks", "close and attack", your post really made me smile, I don't know what game you have played the last months but it clearly wasn't the same one obviously. Rolling to someone didn't made you immune to stun phasers/kb's/rb's etc, neither was it 'instant'.
memo to you, riflebutt was nerfed. But yea now we play the "whoever moves first loses" game... i remember you speaking about Mexican style standoffs before.. maybe you like that.
Nicely taken out of context i bet.
Also why quote what he said to me? It may have fit the context he used it in, but it doesn't matter to me.
Hmm i recently saw a dev posting that sounded like 1on1 pvp seems to be coming soon, finally.
I won't comment on the space balance either im not a spacer and it would be off topic here, theres different opinions about it on the forums anyway.
I could now quote your "insult intelligence" statement, as you should know that class balance has several levels and 1on1 clearly is one of the most basic ones to consider especially as the game features not just team pvp but also warzones too.. but i think its not worth it to argue with you anymore about it, maybe you just lack the gaming experience to know (no offense intended) or don't care enough about the tac class.
Hmm incredible, finally we get a step forward, you admit there was something changed too. That you try to sell this TRIBBLE as a fix although theres not a single word in the patch notes about that change is quite sad tho.
I also don't know who you dueled with but if you won 9 out of 10 times then i think you may have been challenged the wrong opponents. Maybe i should try to convince some decent engi friends to challenge you to some 1on1s.
Aww that almost sounds like a childish invitation to compare who carries more extra kits and weapons around. Your cookie cutter statement doesn't hit me btw, my tacs are all full ground builds as i care absolutely zero for space, i enjoy meleeing too and you would be surprised how much extra gear i carry around with me.
Funny that you pull the operative card while the cloak-ambush-flank burst tactic in my opinion actually took quite a huge efficiency hit in usefulness due to the dmg changes as you will take quite a while longer to take anyone down compared to before with that.. even slow healers may react in time now, so good luck trying that against any decent team that stays together.
If you can't deal, don't...move on (One could only hope....sigh). Whining that you did not see something in the patch notes...whatever. Cry more *sniff*
If you deny all the roll/sniper one-shots you used to get, fine...deny it. Falling victim to it numerous times, I know you are lying if you do. Goes hand in hand with your observed character, so it would be not great surprise to see more denial...but...you know what? It is a dead horse now!
Does not matter...problems fixed!
Cryptic did the "fix" on the Roll/Snipe for some reason...why in the world would they do such a thing?!?!?
Why would they break such a harmless tactic that any logical superior minded player would use?
If the "insanity" and separation from reality I posted as the problem was not the reason, perhaps you can ask them what was the problem, and why they broke your tactic.
You posture your own theory...I don't care, it is finally fixed and I no longer have to face your (and your buddies who use it) lame TRIBBLE one-shot tactic. Awesome! I could not be happier.
Hope you can "understand" that...short and simple, and frankly the whole "changes" has made my month...it is awesome. For someone who lacks gaming experience, is delusional, has no idea what balance is, etc., ad nausium...I indeed suck and have no clue...but I am fine with that after this patch, heh.
It brings me great joy!
Play on!
Or not...whatever...lmao!
I think the OP was just looking for clarification, as he is skilled enough to compensate, and the other main whiner should either /wrists or leave, doing us all a favor (first option is the biggest favor).
The changes to riflebutt alone hopefully will get more interest in ground.
The biggest bork is the respawn points and queue system right now, but I know that affects the sailors just about as bad.
Let's hope they get that fixed soon, and chalk the minor ground changes as either "Good", or "non-issue"
The big difference here is ... dozens of people tested Snix's well documented, well communicated changes.
Practically no one tested these vague and not very well communicated changes until after they went live.
Ground PVP ... getting the business from the devs and not even getting a fair warning about it.
I obviously can't deny one-shotting you when i wasn't even talking to you about one-shots.
Thats pretty much what this thread did, before you started trolling it and denied that anything changed until you finally admitted that something changed. The intention obviously is to figure out what changed, as we weren't informed - we have to gather these information ourself, and hope to get a developer to clarify why these things were changed and if they are even meant to be pvp changes rather then bugs or sideefects of pve changes.
The roll/snipe thing I am sure was fixed to address a PvE thing (PvE being SO hard and all), or is an unintended consequence of fixing something else (jumping and leaping...AND shooting a sniper....oh wait...that's not in there...my bad). The tactic was always meant to be a one-shot close tactic I am sure. It makes perfect sense now that I study it, that initiating a defensive move, followed by offensive moves should mix to create a devastating one-shot attack on much higher frequency than just using the offensive move chain on its own. I surprise myself with my own stupidity sometimes...honestly!
I am just too stupid to realize it and my observations are not only skewed by my stupidity, and my haxxors, but also my absolute failure to understand even the basics of computer gaming.
Sad thing is, when most companies fix an exploit, they do not give details on the fix because knowing these details gives "smart/genius" (like you mikiy) people information they could use to find further exploits (not saying you would do that, of course...). So if that indeed was the reason for some of the changes, I would not hold my breath for a Dev explanation.
You can call it trolling mikiy, but let's be honest....I am too stupid to troll even. All I did was post my observations, and you should have been smart enough to "consider the source" and shrug it off to ignorance and stupidity I would think.
My observations still stand, and I am DEEPLY sorry these changes have caused you so much trouble, and skewed "balance" so bad for you.
DEEPLY sorry. I am SO sad, I think I will go and find a abused, cute little kitten to rescue now.
It just adds kerosene to the fire that you've still not fixed the one actual bug in ground play - multiple spawning drones for enginneers. And we still have leechers as well.
/signed with everything I have. Please start considering what your unnecessary 'ideas' will do to ground PvP in this game. A lot more of it goes on than just your STF ground areas nobody bothers to spec for.
P.S. I'm posting just after your August 1 patch, in which several aspects of ground maps, all of which were functioning perfectly before, have been disrupted (I submitted bug reports on them) - arenas now read 15 kills to end the map instead of the intended (and do I have to specify correct?) 40, and you've managed to make the only non-arena ground map unplayable as shanty isn't accepting the proper number of players on each side, despite what the queuing system is supposed to do now. You just can't add a patch that doesn't destroy our ground experience a little more, huh?
I want to add that I like the fact that balanced games will (eventually when these bugs stop) be the norm, I think that will generate a larger player base for ground games in the long run. But reverse your changes to ground combat itself, and start fixing the real issues.
I've definitely noticed the drop in tac dps since Season 2.0 - and its pretty obvious, tacs being the dps class in STO, that this change has shifted the balance towards the other classes.
I'm not going to get into whether this dps change should or should not be implemented - we'll get a hundred different opinions there. No doubt many players that have faced a skilled high dps tac (like mikiy) would be celebrating this change right now, cos it tips the scales in their favour, as would those that prefer playing eng's or sci's.
I have maxed out characters (RA-VA) in all three classes / and on both factions, so I don't favour any particular class over the other, but see this as a huge issue when significant changes like these are made without mention of it anywhere in a patch note before go live. We should at least have been given the opporunity to test the changes before its too late. There should have been some opportunity for discussion here.
Changes like this have in the past, even in STO...1.1 Exploit/healing nerfs/buffs, happen constantly.
When balance skews, the next OP class gets the axe next upgrade patch, so moving to the Class/Build flavor of the month will just bring you more pain next patch if this stuff gets to you. After going through this for 4 years in other large MMO's, my "limited" experience has taught me you either move on or adapt. Funny thing is, the 1.1 nerfs were hella more drastic than the 2.0 nerfs....and no one seemed to whine then.
This patch apparently removed an exploit, granted hold resist where it was supposed to be granted in design, and lowered Tac burst slightly. Burst was lowered SO slightly, I play 6 tacs on all tiers and did not even notice them...still haven't.
You can cry all you want about getting info so you can "input" after you test, but the bottom line is, the devs have something you never will.
The Database.
Decisions for mechanic changes are driven by the database. If mined correctly, it gives a perfect picture of "balance", and if the game is acting as designed. It also will show erred algorithm coefficients that skew balance as level caps rise (though the mechanics behind STO's PvP are so simple, I sorta doubt this will ever happen...) If they overcompensate on this patch, it will be re-compensated next patch. Any MMO worth its salt will watch for new tactics that skew intended balance after a fix and implement the next fine tune. Player input will mean next to nothing. All player input is used for is to realize exploit holes and bugs the new changes may have introduced.
All STO is beholding to us is to try to create a fun, balanced PvP experience. Not to post the most intimate details of upcoming changes so we can cry about them, or use the knowledge to cheat the system by finding holes in it.
If you are going to PvP in a larger MMO, changes like these are a part of life (I know this is news to a lot of people in this MMO).
Complaints SHOULD not merit any moves on the devs part, as the data will tell the true story in the end anyways. Just be happy that PvP changes will not effect PvE changes in this game for quite awhile, or vice versa, unless they decide to make PvE here actually challenging.
Like I said, this is probably news to a lot of you....so it's time to get over all the "shock", quit being indignant because you could not attempt to "theory-craft" the latest changes enough. That happens here in a minor way with some spacers...very minor...but grounders? Give me a break...the concept "theory-crafting" happens in any way for ground PvP is laughable. There are some seriously hyper-inflated egos here if they think they are actually participating in ground PvP "theory-crafting"
Adapt, Change to the new flavor of the month, or get out. One can hope that marketing will help keep an influx of new players to fill the gaps.
This, so this. We want full disclosure. It is difficult to bring up a complaint when you deny the opposition the information to do so - what are well known snake-oil tricks doing in my Star Trek??