test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Questionable Durability: Death in Seconds

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I've been playing SOL for a while now, and reading the forums for advice in combat. Through all of this I have noticed something strange. Much of the advice for PvP describes how to extend survival of a ship under concentrated fire from 4 seconds to 7 seconds, or even to as much as 10 seconds.

Ten seconds? Really?

This is not very Trek. Battles between ships in Trek are epic affairs involving massive vessels dealing and taking incredible damage. In "Yesterday's Enterprise" the Ent-D survives sustained fire from 3 heavy cruisers for several minutes. Defiant has plowed through hordes of enemies with her bridge on fire and sparks flying everywhere - but it didn't collapse in 5 seconds of battle.

Maybe it's my experience playing other Trek games that is the problem. The game STO's combat most resembles is Starfleet Command. In that game it took a very concerted effort over time for even several cruisers to destroy a single enemy. All the while the target ship would be suffering systems failures and malfunctions - but it wasn't simply exploded nearly instantly and a skilled captain could often use tactics to escape destruction before it was too late. More importantly your allies had time to react and move to the rescue - another staple of Trek lore.

Cruisers and dreadnoughts should feel substantial. A massive ship with 500 souls on board shouldn't pop like a grape . Why are these deathtraps even constructed if their expected combat lifetime is less than a single minute? Why would you put hundreds of hightly trained people in them? That just doesn't make sense and it gets in the way of immersion.

Perhaps I'm missing something essential here. I'd love to hear what it is because I do want to feel like I'm playing in a somewhat consistent and believable universe.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I think part of the problem you're describing is due to thinking in terms of PvP.

    I dont PvP, so i cant speak from experience, but in most games PvP boils down to who has the highest DPS vs who has the highest survivability.

    high DPS will always destroy anything that isnt high survivability in seconds in PvP, as players will work the system to find methods and tactics to allow for this. thats their goal, and some people are experts at achieving it.


    I've rarely had an experience in PvE where things have died in seconds.. (ok maybe when i'm taking a Lt Cmdr ship back to do a Lt 2 level mission... ) and with the exception of the borg cubes there's very little out there in PvE that'll drag me down in seconds, even in escorts. (frankly i'd be upset if the borg cubes didnt whoop me in a single escort to be honest!)

    I honestly think that trying to apply canon style thinking to PvP will kill the PvP experience for many, drag battles out massively and put a great deal off.


    that said, if they were to do something like this it would be interesting to see long, epic battles between players, drawing out for hours even. Not everyone's cup of tea but I think i'd look into PvP more if it wasnt just insta-pwn all the time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    STO is not a simulation; it's a game where fun trumps duplicating any given piece of Trek lore. So combat is fast-paced. And that's a good thing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Democratus wrote: »
    I've been playing SOL for a while now, and reading the forums for advice in combat. Through all of this I have noticed something strange. Much of the advice for PvP describes how to extend survival of a ship under concentrated fire from 4 seconds to 7 seconds, or even to as much as 10 seconds.

    Ten seconds? Really?

    This is not very Trek. Battles between ships in Trek are epic affairs involving massive vessels dealing and taking incredible damage. In "Yesterday's Enterprise" the Ent-D survives sustained fire from 3 heavy cruisers for several minutes. Defiant has plowed through hordes of enemies with her bridge on fire and sparks flying everywhere - but it didn't collapse in 5 seconds of battle.

    Maybe it's my experience playing other Trek games that is the problem. The game STO's combat most resembles is Starfleet Command. In that game it took a very concerted effort over time for even several cruisers to destroy a single enemy. All the while the target ship would be suffering systems failures and malfunctions - but it wasn't simply exploded nearly instantly and a skilled captain could often use tactics to escape destruction before it was too late. More importantly your allies had time to react and move to the rescue - another staple of Trek lore.

    Cruisers and dreadnoughts should feel substantial. A massive ship with 500 souls on board shouldn't pop like a grape . Why are these deathtraps even constructed if their expected combat lifetime is less than a single minute? Why would you put hundreds of hightly trained people in them? That just doesn't make sense and it gets in the way of immersion.

    Perhaps I'm missing something essential here. I'd love to hear what it is because I do want to feel like I'm playing in a somewhat consistent and believable universe.

    The problem here is tactics, in a PvP setting often 15 people will get together, all target one person and all use their most powerful abilities on them at once. Even if it's a 15 on 15 both sides will focus fire. In a one on one it really does take a while and I've even heard cases where both sides decided to call it a draw because they were both too skilled at defending and hit-run tactics in a cruiser and raptor respectivly.

    Watch most of the DS9 battles and you'll see combat a lot more like STO. Also coordination helps a lot, if I've got full power to shields and I use extend shields on somebody they won't be getting killed nearly as fast, so in groups with support your survivability skyrockets.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Yeah, that would be wonderful. Playing against BoPs or Escorts that don't die. really fun
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I would say that one thing you are missing is combat with ship types. Using Yesterday's Enterprise as an example, 3 heavy cruisers mounted weapons that you could withstand fire from, but in the end Enterprise-D died from it, and thats probably with rerouting power and all the lot. I've at least lasted that long against equivalent ships in PvP. Its when you get escorts into the mix that things change. Ecsorts are just hunter/killers. How often you see the Defiant flying through those groups of ships and the ships dying around it? A cruiser can take a pounding but a escort is always going to have a firepower advantage. Thats why its lighter and easier to 'kill' but if you get massed, well yeah you are dead. Of course I just need to play PvP more in order to figure out how best to survive in my choices.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Okay. That all makes sense. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    I suppose I should look at the shows as PvE. The Enterprise crew were the players and all the other stuff they faced was environmental/NPCs. Compant in PvE does go slow and steady like depicted in the shows.

    For fast, furious furballs of death you have PvP. Where death is just around the corner and only cooridnation between captains can win victory.

    I think I can run with this. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Naevius wrote:
    STO is not a simulation; it's a game where fun trumps duplicating any given piece of Trek lore. So combat is fast-paced. And that's a good thing.
    There's a difference between Blink of an Eye and Fast paced.

    My recommendation to the OP: If you're a PvE (Player vs Environment [Environment = NPCs]), play on Advanced or Elite Difficulty. The enemies take longer to kill (mainly due to substantial shielding, which oddly enough is the exact reason why the shows combats take a while, which leads us to think why these are beyond normal in the game) and do a lot more damage to you. Advanced and Elite replicate ST quite well, space wise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Democratus wrote: »
    Okay. That all makes sense. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    I suppose I should look at the shows as PvE. The Enterprise crew were the players and all the other stuff they faced was environmental/NPCs. Compant in PvE does go slow and steady like depicted in the shows.

    For fast, furious furballs of death you have PvP. Where death is just around the corner and only cooridnation between captains can win victory.

    I think I can run with this. :)

    This was my conclusion as well....

    Mainly looking at Nemesis Insurrection and First Contact (the battle between the E and the sphere) and seeing how when the Enterprise faced other ships, especially the scimitar, that things were insanely fast paced.

    If not for the Scimitar's special cloak, the two Romulan war-birds, and the pause in the battle, it would have been over very very fast.

    I bet Shinzon is still ticked over how badly ramming speed needs a nerf XD :D
Sign In or Register to comment.