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Thoughts on STO from a typical MMO player

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Before STO came out, I heard about it and I dismissed it. The masses of failed MMO’s who tried to grab a chunk of the market, left a bitter taste in my mouth. So I kept dismissing STO as a bad game, until one bored afternoon I tried the demo offered thru Steam.

First of congratulations on making a fun and addicting space MMO. Sure it’s not finished, but it never will be that’s just how MMO’s are. I have been playing MMO’s for decades, from the first text based games to just about every major MMO/RPG game that came out in the past 20+ years. So I think I can say with some authority that STO really has the potential to grow to an amazing game, as long as the powers that be take the game in to the right direction.

Looking around the forums, one thing specifically worries me………the FANS!! Let me elaborate.

I see a lot of posts asking for pointless things to be added to the game that have nothing or very little to do with game play. Things such as adding extra things to the bridge, making other rooms/areas available thru ought the ship, people want player generated content, they want bigger universe, and they want the game to match the series/movies more closely. Generally these suggestions seems to come from the desire for the RP element of the star trek universe. While most of these types of suggestions seem to be harmless, and might make good additions to the game if other more important issues were fixed and resolved, but they are not.

From my limited perspective on the game, from a fairly new player here are some issues that I ran in to and things I think need improvement, and things that are awesome as they are.

1. Size of the universe – The size of the universe should match the population of players. You don’t want the ratio between #player/size of universe to be to much out of proportion so that you don’t end up flying around for hours without seeing a single soul. Also I am not interested in traveling somewhere for an hour. To large of a universe with not enough players to support it, does not feel alive. STO seems to be fine with the size currently, when I am flying around I see other people around me all the time, or see them all grouped up around a Fleet Action system. It lends to the feeling of a world that’s alive. If anyone has played EVE Online you will know its HUGE, it has a realism of space and let me tell you the realism of space is mind numbingly boring! The huge travel times, the rare times you even see another player if you are out in 0.0 sector.

2. The interface needs a lot more improvement. It is very confusing to figure things out for a new player. What do those stats on the deflector dish do? What to majority of the stats do? There is no fast/easy way to find out. It even took me a while to figure out how to efficiently handle the quests. The map should let you look at other sector blocks that you are not currently in, the detailed view of a sector should be available no matter where you are. Polishing things out a bit should help with the new player retention a bit

3. Factions – Before I gave STO a try I thought it was a ****** game. When I read that 1 faction is PVP and the other one is PVE, I thought that was a horrible idea and to be honest it turned me off the game quite a bit. So before any talk of new playable factions, the current factions should be fleshed out (Read Klingon) and this whole nonsense of pvp/pve focused factions should never be mentioned again.

4. Several times I went to the STO website to look around and see if it’s worth giving it a try, and several times I decided that it was not worth it. The website itself gives the impression that the game severely underdeveloped. Example: “What do you mean you don’t have info for all the ships available in the game” Things need to be improved big time, the only reason I gave this game a try was that I found it at Walmart for $20 and was bored that afternoon. I am glad that I did, but the point is that I have tried to get info on the game several times and Cryptic failed to communicate to me how awesome this game really is.

5. Ground Combat – I see a lot of people complaining about this, but I don’t think it’s that bad and in fact I do enjoy it actually. It needs more work, but the basics are there. I like the different combinations of abilities you can create via Kits, and your away team members. The enemies abilities are nice and challenging. Agro should be reset after the mob has been pursuing you for a while and it should also reset if you respawn, which currently if the respawn point is close to where you died it does not. As you increase the difficulty you should be forced to put more thought in to how you will take on the next pack of mobs, maybe with an emphasis on crowd control.

6. Crystalline Entity – This is an awesome encounter, and I hope to see more like it. I have not managed to kill it, but it’s good to know that difficult encounters like that are around that require co-ordination and a group of skilled captains to complete. While I am on this topic I might as well mention the fleet battles and give props for those too. I am undecided and quite frankly don’t know about the looting system at the end of a fleet battle to make up my mind if its good/bad

7. Space Combat – It’s a vast improvement over what we have seen from other similar games, I have seen people complain about repetitiveness of space combat, but any MMO will be repetitive especially while leveling. Increasing the difficulty should require a more tactical approach to space battles. Also important to remember that the vast majority of players are used to a different kind of MMO Combat system where the traditional roles of Tank/Healer/DPS/Support are what the combat is based on, now space combat is different and how those battles are fought should be different from the traditional fantasy MMO but it should still have some sort of structure. Right now it’s just lets all run in there pick a target, shoot and hope it’s dead before you are. One idea is to have a setting or ability or button or what-ever that would assign a master assist, an easy way for everyone to target the same mob to burn it down. What ship has agro could depend on the distance between enemy and damage done (distance given a higher modifier). This would give more of a tactical quality to space encounters, and it would allow you to create complicated scripted encounters for the end game.

That is all for right now from the newest fan (read addict)
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    It is always useful to get a fresh perspective on the game... thank you for this post.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    1. Size of the universe – This is not WoW. Nor is it Everquest. Nor any other typical MMO. This is Star Trek. In Star Trek, the universe IS a big place, and for the most part, you are expected to be very much alone out there, the farther you get from Earth. It is afterall, the final FRONTIER. In WoW, and other more ground action based games, you need those population centers and the surrounding environments to be very populated, so you don't feel alone in a ghost world. But being alone, with only your ship and your crew to depend on is centric to the Trek IP.

    Furthermore, expanding the universe that we play in, doesn't automatically mean that it needs to take an hour to get anywhere. When people talk about expanding the universe, the thing they are talking about is having more locations to visit, more places to interact with. This can be achieved without expanding the distance so it takes you an hour to get somewhere. But, it takes time to fill in the content. But at the same time, there would be more content and locations in the game, if only STO had undergone a FULL development syscle, rather than the rush to production that it suffered.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I don't think the OP is complaining about the current size, just saying that if you make it too large it could be a bit tedious to wander around in.

    I pretty much agree with all he has to say, I have always thought the game was fun and just missing something to really hook in the players.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    1. Size of the universe – This is not WoW. Nor is it Everquest. Nor any other typical MMO. This is Star Trek. In Star Trek, the universe IS a big place, and for the most part, you are expected to be very much alone out there, the farther you get from Earth. It is afterall, the final FRONTIER. In WoW, and other more ground action based games, you need those population centers and the surrounding environments to be very populated, so you don't feel alone in a ghost world. But being alone, with only your ship and your crew to depend on is centric to the Trek IP.

    I am truly grateful to you for pointing out that this is not WOW or Everquest, i just thought this was a wow space expansion.
    Of course the universe is a BIG place, but even with your explanation I am going to stick to my point and again point out that being alone with your ship, in a huge universe has been done by Eve Online, and it is not fun. It is beyond boring.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    OP, what interests many of us regarding UGC is how it has the potential to fix many of the game's weaknesses, from the lack of Klingon content to "less pew pew, more IQ!" In my opinion, that is not fluff for RPers alone. It could save the game if done correctly.

    Regarding ship interiors, the majority of players agree that they must be functional and incorporated into the game mechanics. That's a far cry from RP nonsense.

    I apreciate some of your other suggestions, though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    OP, what interests many of us regarding UGC is how it has the potential to fix many of the game's weaknesses, from the lack of Klingon content to "less pew pew, more IQ!" In my opinion, that is not fluff for RPers alone. It could save the game if done correctly.

    Regarding ship interiors, the majority of players agree that they must be functional and incorporated into the game mechanics. That's a far cry from RP nonsense.

    I apreciate some of your other suggestions, though.

    Yeah you got to take some things with a grain of salt, i simply don't have the experience in the game to understand the more complex issues. (I am still struggling with figuring out the deflector dish, and trying to get hbo with it)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    tibetium wrote:
    Yeah you got to take some things with a grain of salt, i simply don't have the experience in the game to understand the more complex issues. (I am still struggling with figuring out the deflector dish, and trying to get hbo with it)

    The basics do need to get retooled: when speaking of ground combat, a few of the interfaces, and the even the stats need more streamlining (it was honestly worse at launch).

    From there. I'd love to see UGC so players can create the experiences they want to see (and share) while Cryptic moves ahead with bold new systems and fleshing out Klingons.

    I like that you brought a different perspective: it's nice to see someone that enters the game without the gripes and concerns most of us have pondered for months. :)

    It's easy for those of us at cap to forget that this game needs polish to not only get new players in but also keep them interested. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010

    It's easy for those of us at cap to forget that this game needs polish to not only get new players in but also keep them interested. :D

    Plus, if Cryptic does improve things at lower levels, it might make me want to create a second character. I've never wanted to becaus I dread having to replay the first 4-5 hours of the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    Plus, if Cryptic does improve things at lower levels, it might make me want to create a second character. I've never wanted to becaus I dread having to replay the first 4-5 hours of the game.

    I dreaded it 7 times, yet somehow i did it anyway. :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    1. Size of the universe – This is not WoW. Nor is it Everquest. Nor any other typical MMO. This is Star Trek. In Star Trek, the universe IS a big place, and for the most part, you are expected to be very much alone out there, the farther you get from Earth. It is afterall, the final FRONTIER. In WoW, and other more ground action based games, you need those population centers and the surrounding environments to be very populated, so you don't feel alone in a ghost world. But being alone, with only your ship and your crew to depend on is centric to the Trek IP.
    Sooo essentially you don't think this should be an MMO? since everything you just said is contrary to social interaction.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    DarksunG wrote: »
    Sooo essentially you don't think this should be an MMO? since everything you just said is contrary to social interaction.

    Or perhaps, in it's true form, Star Trek as an IP isn't compatible with being an MMO...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    the OP mentions one thing that stands out to me and that has been worrying me and sickening me some. the absolutely TRIBBLE irrelevant TERRIBLE requests for silly useless things which take up dev time.

    we all know what they are...when we see them.

    draw the line on requests from players which will advance the game for everyone vs which will advance the game for only 10 people.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I think the problem is the OP forgets this isnt some generic made up by the devs MMO game as most are. This is a Long Running Franchise based MMO, so expectations are very much different. While its good to get the opinion of a non trek fan that enjoys the game, its also important to keep in mind Franchise based Games like this and Star Wars to name a few have a pre-installed fanbase coming in from their passion for the Series/Movies, that will always breed Expectations and desires that remain true to the IP its based on.

    It would be folly to run STO like a EQ or a WoW or a Aion. If you want more a MMO and less Star Trek, they would have been better off naming this "SpaceFleet Online" and throw years and years of Rich Lore and History out the window and make up stuff, however its Star Trek online, which means things likes Bridges and interiors must remain true to the source IP. Not to mention Cryptic doesnt call all the shots, they have CBS looking over their shoulders, and generally IP Owners tend to get ****y with game companies messing around with their valued IP.

    Lucas for example has been known to be notorious in making demands of SOE to making SWG more Star Wars and less Generic Space MMO, thats just how it is people. You could cry about all the 'silly Trekker fanboy demands" but since its attached to a Existing IP, stuff like that will always happen and should be listened to.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I would like to observe that some ideas postulated by roleplayers are not necessarily contrary to the improvements of STO as an MMO game. Perhaps it's in the presentation of the idea?

    I also think that some gamers seem to forget is that the core of this game type was originally called MMORPG. Somewhere along the way, the industry (and perhaps some of its players) came to a conclusion that catering to the RP portion of their playerbase was bad for business. With STO we continue to have a golden opportunity to express a re-invention of this MMORPG as ideal.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    You could cry about all the 'silly Trekker fanboy demands" but since its attached to a Existing IP, stuff like that will always happen and should be listened to.

    Will always happen. But not always listened to.

    Its Star trek. Its a big IP. We of course have alot of requests about Canon.

    Its also an MMO. We cant cram everything thats star trek in here. IMO, the canon need for interiors is the cause for complaints about oversize interiors, not the other way round.

    If Armada was a purely canon game, i wouldve binned it. It would be unbelievably boring. We wouldnt have had colonies, resource collection that makes sense, powers that make ships unique, actual strategy rather than zerging.

    Games are not compatible with ANY IP. Not entirely anyway. Where it is compatible is where STO should go, but thats it. We dont need....player crews for example. God knows i'l never understand how some can go 'i might only play minigames for the entire time on ship during a mission as a medical officer, but im doing my part so i'll love it'. Purely IMO of course.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    This is not a generic Sci-Fi MMO. If it were I would agree 100% with the OP.

    For example, in City of Heroes & Champions I don't give a darn about how costumes look. Whatever the devs come up with is fine. They are generic hero games and the game play is more important than cosmetics.

    But if it were DC Comics Online and they got details on Batman's costume incorrect or I if I wanted a Batman Beyond costume I would get involved on the forums and ask for these things.

    Typical MMO players and general Sci-Fi fans need to understand this difference. And it does not stem from role play either. I'm not a RPer and I want the Star Trek universe in this MMO to mirror what I've seen in the shows. That makes the game 1000% more enjoyable for me... simple as that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    A few people seem to have misunderstood my intent.

    Yes star trek is a big IP, and yes it came with a built in fan base. I am not against RP/Cosmetic things being added to the game.
    I simply believe that game play issues, and making the game a better one should be the first priority.

    It seems that some people are under the false impression that this game is somehow imune to all the problems other MMO's have to deal with.
    There have been other MMO games that had just as big a built in fan base as star trek, and they have not done too well. Lord Of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Starwars, D&D Online, to name just a few.

    I am sure that no matter what sort of STO player you are, you don't want to see this game go down the same path as the masses of MMO's that have tried and failed in the past few years.
    I am sure that everyone would agree that we would like to see more resources put in to STO, which would equal more development, more new content for every sort of player out there.

    It just seems that some people want simulator first MMO second, and I'm worried that we wont get either, or what ever we do get will be of declining quality as subscription fall off.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ashur1 wrote:
    I dreaded it 7 times, yet somehow i did it anyway. :o

    I hate having to do the tutorial with each new character. On the Fed side (can't say anything about Klingon side, I don't play it), why can't I opt to skip the tutorial and start in Sol Starbase at Lt. 3 with some starter gear.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    This is a refreshing thread. I too have had much fun playing this game. I've even enjoyed making my klingon my main. And im glad that Cryptic seem to be taking the game in the right direction and that I am not alone in thinking that way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    tibetium wrote:
    4. Several times I went to the STO website to look around and see if it’s worth giving it a try, and several times I decided that it was not worth it. The website itself gives the impression that the game severely underdeveloped.
    Couldn´t agree more with it.
    Te webadmins should be fired and new ones hired ASAP. I´m talking about english AND german. I made the English version my standard as I have given up on the German version to update anywhere near something useful.

    Actually I´ve in general given up on the crapflash part of startekonline.com. Forums are the only part I regularly visit.

    As for his eve-online emptiness is booring. That´s the FEATURE of 0.0. I always got claustrophobic in empire space where 90% of the player base hangs out. And you usually meet peeps all the time at the gates.

    Interesting views and post.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    tibetium wrote:
    Before STO came out, I heard about it and I dismissed it. The masses of failed MMO’s who tried to grab a chunk of the market, left a bitter taste in my mouth. So I kept dismissing STO as a bad game, until one bored afternoon I tried the demo offered thru Steam.

    First of congratulations on making a fun and addicting space MMO. Sure it’s not finished, but it never will be that’s just how MMO’s are. I have been playing MMO’s for decades, from the first text based games to just about every major MMO/RPG game that came out in the past 20+ years. So I think I can say with some authority that STO really has the potential to grow to an amazing game, as long as the powers that be take the game in to the right direction.

    Looking around the forums, one thing specifically worries me………the FANS!! Let me elaborate.

    I see a lot of posts asking for pointless things to be added to the game that have nothing or very little to do with game play. Things such as adding extra things to the bridge, making other rooms/areas available thru ought the ship, people want player generated content, they want bigger universe, and they want the game to match the series/movies more closely. Generally these suggestions seems to come from the desire for the RP element of the star trek universe. While most of these types of suggestions seem to be harmless, and might make good additions to the game if other more important issues were fixed and resolved, but they are not.

    From my limited perspective on the game, from a fairly new player here are some issues that I ran in to and things I think need improvement, and things that are awesome as they are.

    1. Size of the universe – The size of the universe should match the population of players. You don’t want the ratio between #player/size of universe to be to much out of proportion so that you don’t end up flying around for hours without seeing a single soul. Also I am not interested in traveling somewhere for an hour. To large of a universe with not enough players to support it, does not feel alive. STO seems to be fine with the size currently, when I am flying around I see other people around me all the time, or see them all grouped up around a Fleet Action system. It lends to the feeling of a world that’s alive. If anyone has played EVE Online you will know its HUGE, it has a realism of space and let me tell you the realism of space is mind numbingly boring! The huge travel times, the rare times you even see another player if you are out in 0.0 sector.

    2. The interface needs a lot more improvement. It is very confusing to figure things out for a new player. What do those stats on the deflector dish do? What to majority of the stats do? There is no fast/easy way to find out. It even took me a while to figure out how to efficiently handle the quests. The map should let you look at other sector blocks that you are not currently in, the detailed view of a sector should be available no matter where you are. Polishing things out a bit should help with the new player retention a bit

    3. Factions – Before I gave STO a try I thought it was a ****** game. When I read that 1 faction is PVP and the other one is PVE, I thought that was a horrible idea and to be honest it turned me off the game quite a bit. So before any talk of new playable factions, the current factions should be fleshed out (Read Klingon) and this whole nonsense of pvp/pve focused factions should never be mentioned again.

    4. Several times I went to the STO website to look around and see if it’s worth giving it a try, and several times I decided that it was not worth it. The website itself gives the impression that the game severely underdeveloped. Example: “What do you mean you don’t have info for all the ships available in the game” Things need to be improved big time, the only reason I gave this game a try was that I found it at Walmart for $20 and was bored that afternoon. I am glad that I did, but the point is that I have tried to get info on the game several times and Cryptic failed to communicate to me how awesome this game really is.

    5. Ground Combat – I see a lot of people complaining about this, but I don’t think it’s that bad and in fact I do enjoy it actually. It needs more work, but the basics are there. I like the different combinations of abilities you can create via Kits, and your away team members. The enemies abilities are nice and challenging. Agro should be reset after the mob has been pursuing you for a while and it should also reset if you respawn, which currently if the respawn point is close to where you died it does not. As you increase the difficulty you should be forced to put more thought in to how you will take on the next pack of mobs, maybe with an emphasis on crowd control.

    6. Crystalline Entity – This is an awesome encounter, and I hope to see more like it. I have not managed to kill it, but it’s good to know that difficult encounters like that are around that require co-ordination and a group of skilled captains to complete. While I am on this topic I might as well mention the fleet battles and give props for those too. I am undecided and quite frankly don’t know about the looting system at the end of a fleet battle to make up my mind if its good/bad

    7. Space Combat – It’s a vast improvement over what we have seen from other similar games, I have seen people complain about repetitiveness of space combat, but any MMO will be repetitive especially while leveling. Increasing the difficulty should require a more tactical approach to space battles. Also important to remember that the vast majority of players are used to a different kind of MMO Combat system where the traditional roles of Tank/Healer/DPS/Support are what the combat is based on, now space combat is different and how those battles are fought should be different from the traditional fantasy MMO but it should still have some sort of structure. Right now it’s just lets all run in there pick a target, shoot and hope it’s dead before you are. One idea is to have a setting or ability or button or what-ever that would assign a master assist, an easy way for everyone to target the same mob to burn it down. What ship has agro could depend on the distance between enemy and damage done (distance given a higher modifier). This would give more of a tactical quality to space encounters, and it would allow you to create complicated scripted encounters for the end game.

    That is all for right now from the newest fan (read addict)

    I don't have a problem with the universe size, and if anything, it seems smaller than I would like. This could of course be due to all the instancing.

    I don't see a problem with the UI per se, however, I'll agree that not enough info is given about many of the skills/abilities. I think the actual UI itself is rather pleasant and don't see a reason to work on it. The only way I can see it being better is to allow more than just 3 rows of hotkeys. I would really like to see a row that doesn't have defaulted hotkeys, so you can hotkey them yourself, or just leave them as 'clickable' powers. Because they don't allow this, it means that your ship weapons have to be taking up hotkey slots when really I only need to see their icons to see their cooldown timers.

    For #3, I completely agree.

    I think the website looks fine, but maybe that's just because I'm used to it now. They are constantly adding in new ships, and it wouldn't surprise me that they aren't keeping up with the website specs for them. I'd rather them be working on in-game content, as opposed to internet fluff.

    I also agree with #5, but short of a complete reworking, I don't see how it could really get that much better. TBH, I personally don't care about ground combat and got this game based on the space combat portion. I can see how people looking for fun ground combat would be depressed though.

    I haven't done Crystalline entity yet, but it sounds fun.

    I think space combat is this game's biggest strength. The people who complain about repetitiveness, well, I'm not sure what they are wanting. As you mentioned, any MMO is going to be repetitive when it comes to killing mobs. If anything, STO is more dynamic than most every other MMO I've played. It rather reminds me of DF AI where the mobs actually try to move around and position themselves instead of just stick to you mindlessly auto-attacking (ala WoW). I really enjoy the strategic elements of space combat, and hope they think up some new and interesting powers to use in space combat. The one area where this strategic space combat really shines is in PvP, it's just a shame that currently not a lot of people partake.

    I really hope that after some major fixes/changes happen, that Cryptic will begin to focus more on Faction vs. Faction PvP systems.
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