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Someone explain the whole 'Cryptic hates Scis' mentality?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I've been perusing through the boards, and I'm seeing the a of 'Cryptic hates Scis!' and 'Season 1.2/Season 2 will be the death of Sci!' topics.

Could someone please explain where this is coming from to me? After Season 1.2, I've found my Sci ship to be amazing. Even moreso with Season 2's changes to Aux.

Point 1) Let me give you a real example that happened in a PvP match the other day.

I saw a Cruiser teammate being hammered on by 2 Escorts in a Cap N Hold. He was around 75% and no shields, and while he was holding his own, it was clear that he was going to end up losing to the 2 Escorts. I zip in under Full Impulse, pop an Aux Battery, and throw him Transfer Shield Strength II, Hazard Emitters III, and EngTeam II. Just to be sure, I bust out Starship Dampening Field III for 90%+ resistance. Now that he's safe, I begin to look at the situation.

One of the Escorts has 100% and full shields, and the other is at 64% and about to come off of RSP. Fine. I hit the untouched Escort with my FREE (love this) Target Subsystem: Weapons. He's now down 50 weapon power, numbing his bite somewhat. I shift my attention to the damaged Escort with still full shields (due to RSP). I hit him with Tachyon Beam III, and fire off HYT II Quantums as I'm closing in on him. I fire Charged Particle Burst III right before the torps hit. He's now almost finished off. But, to be safe, I nail him with Photonic Shockwave I to stop him from healing himself. At this point, he's now behind me, and I hit him with an HYT I salvo from my aft Photons. He's dunzo.

Now it's time to pay attention to the other Escort (who has still been hammering away at the Cruiser). I look and see none of my debuffs are off CD, so I throw Sensor Scan III at him. Bam. -90% damage resistance. He begins to realize he's screwed, so he turns around and tries to run with Evasive Manuvers. Not so fast, as I've got my Dual Beam Banks on him with Target Subsystem: Engines. You can figure out what happened next.

Point 2) No other class offers such versatility. Escorts: Let me hit you as hard as I can. Cruisers: I will mitigate whatever damage you throw at me by outhealing you. With Sci, I have a bunch of different options.
- Do I want to be a healer with Hazard Emitters, Transfer Shield Strength, and SciTeam?
- Do I want to drain power with Target Subsystems, Siphon Power, and Tyken's Rift?
- Do I want to be crowd control with Scramble Sensors, Photonic Shockwave, Tractor Beam Repulsors and Gravity Well?
- Do I want to cripple shields with Tachyon Beam and Charged Particle Burst?
- Do I want to combine a few of these abilities and wreak havoc?

I really don't get why people find Sci to be surrounded with such doom and gloom.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I concur, I love Science abilities and ships! :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    did you actually get a star trek insignia tattooed on your shoulder ?

    0_o

    .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Because they've been getting nerfed every patch since launch. Previously core abilities were gutted/changed so badly that they no longer resembled their original versions. Additionally the consoles were given a 1/2 cut.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Well, it's simple.. its the same thing with high-tier cruisers (to a lesser degree). Cryptic changed some spells ("spells" for the sake of argument) and consoles to act differently. And since science ships are the most spell-dependent ships around, they were the most affected. You, apparently, learned your way around these changes. Some people didn't, ergo they think that the ships have been nerfed.

    These people ships haven't been nerfed, their tactics were.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    A lot of people figure DPS is what matters, so if you build your Science Captain in his Science ship for DPS, and suddenly you're forced to change your thinking and depend more on your Aux rather than Weapons power, I can see how some would be troubled.

    Personally, I've managed to respec my Science RA5 in his DSSV to be able to handle some tough Bosses in Elite B'Tran missions. Granted, I still need to add Scramble Sensors to the build so I'll survive an attack be multiple weaker enemies, but before my Sci/DSSV respec which I did on Tribble, I couldn't survive anything in Elite B'Tran missions.

    I wouldn't say Cryptic hates science, but rather that since there are more "interesting" science skills than in any other career-path in the game (or at least it seems like that to me, in space), they'd be the first to be modified and so every ship and Captain is feeling the changes, but the Science x2 combo feels it even more severely.

    Just my 2 EC's there. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    It's because the people who fly them are upset that they keep getting nerfed with almost every patch.

    Now all of the nerfs and changes were pretty warrented because some of the things that Science had were "I win" buttons; but with that said the class itself is still deadly as ever to those that actually bother to try at it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    They nerfed Viral Matrix. And Scramble Sensors. And Photonic Officer. And Gravity Well. And Tyken's Rift. And Target Sub-System Shields. And removed Aux from being the turn rate boosting power but left Sci invested heavily in Aux.

    That's usually what people are talking about when they claim Science is hated by Cryptic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    did you actually get a star trek insignia tattooed on your shoulder ?

    0_o

    .

    Yep.
    LordOfPit wrote: »
    A lot of people figure DPS is what matters, so if you build your Science Captain in his Science ship for DPS, and suddenly you're forced to change your thinking and depend more on your Aux rather than Weapons power, I can see how some would be troubled.

    I actually run with 100 Weapons power :p

    After skills and such, my power comes out to 100 Weapon/52 Shield/42 Engine/88 Aux (sometimes 93, depending on if I put on an extra Booster Modulator instead of Neutronium Alloy), with default settings of 100/25/25/50.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I miss old Viral Matrix. Oh the tears. The delicious delicious tears.

    The Drain Pain Train was pretty good too, shutting someone down completely to 0 power.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Most of the frustration comes from us casual players. Everytime they do changes it causes a lot of frustration figuring out the new stuff. Granted if we read all of the updates and tool tips we will be able to figure it out eventually to make our characters perform the way we want to but that costs us something we dont have a lot of in game: time.
    Also the other classes are straight forward in thier roles, but in my experience (which is not that great of an indicator and please correct me if im wrong) Sci builds have to be very polarized in thier skill point expenditures to fill any of the roles mentioned previosly.
    I'm not saying these are legitimate gripes, but they are gripes none the less.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    They nerfed Viral Matrix. And Scramble Sensors. And Photonic Officer. And Gravity Well. And Tyken's Rift. And Target Sub-System Shields. And removed Aux from being the turn rate boosting power but left Sci invested heavily in Aux.

    That's usually what people are talking about when they claim Science is hated by Cryptic.

    Personally, I feel that some of those were warranted.

    - Viral Matrix was just OP'd like nuts.
    - I could get Tyken's III to drain 100+. That, IMO, is OP. I basically ran my Klingon from LtC up to BG5 by being in a BoP built around using Tyken's II or III to take down shields, and then pummeling people with 3x DHC + HYT torps.
    - TSS:Shields was also overkill, imo.
    - Turn rate being on Engines just makes senses to me.
    - Photonic Officer/Gravity Well/Scramble Sensors I can't comment on because I didn't use them pre-changes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Sivar wrote: »
    It's because the people who fly them are upset that they keep getting nerfed with almost every patch.

    Now all of the nerfs and changes were pretty warrented because some of the things that Science had were "I win" buttons; but with that said the class itself is still deadly as ever to those that actually bother to try at it.

    There is the truth of the matter.

    Personally, as an escort guy, I have the strongest love/hate with science.
    They can be my best friend or worst enemy. ever. depending on whose team they're on. :p
    I fear them/want them far more than a super-durable cruiser.

    Also, anyone remember how hated VM used to be? Some people called it one of the most serious game-breaking things in all STO.

    And Tyken? heck even I use it sometimes when I'm feeling daring and I'm willing to exchange one of my sci healing abilities for it.
    And this is post nerf.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    I actually run with 100 Weapons power :p

    After skills and such, my power comes out to 100 Weapon/52 Shield/42 Engine/88 Aux (sometimes 93, depending on if I put on an extra Booster Modulator instead of Neutronium Alloy), with default settings of 100/25/25/50.
    That's the thing... there are always ways to figure out new tactics, builds etc. I figured I needed to invest myself in just one major hitter ability (Gravity Well, in this case) and add more healing abilities, and it did the trick. I haven't even touched on Weapon's power, and my equip/gear isn't even Mk X's yet, and I can handle those tougher Elite Bosses in B'Tran.

    Thing is, MMO's intermittently feature fluctuating gameplay that forces players to adapt to "new" rules. Whether players do, or don't... the complaints will come no matter what the Devs do. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    Personally, I feel that some of those were warranted.

    Sure. That's fine. My post wasn't meant to reflect any of my opinions on the matter. It was just a list of powers that got nerfed to help answer your question. Those changes are why people make those threads you were citing in your original post. No matter how I feel about those changes ... those changes are the root/source of where the "cryptic hates science" trend comes from. That's all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    Sure. That's fine. My post wasn't meant to reflect any of my opinions on the matter. It was just a list of powers that got nerfed to help answer your question. Those changes are why people make those threads you were citing in your original post. No matter how I feel about those changes ... those changes are the root/source of where the "cryptic hates science" trend comes from. That's all.

    Point taken :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    And another thing is, from start everyone knew that Science officer/ship were meant to fill in the Mage role.

    The Mage role was always the most difficult one, anywhere. So in my opinion casual players shouldn't play Mage/Science.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Irregardless if they were necessary for balance changes or not, the feeling of having abilities constantly changed and weakened brings about the feeling that your class is getting treated unfairly, even if those changes are in fact to bring them in line with the other classes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ruivo wrote:
    And another thing is, from start everyone knew that Science officer/ship were meant to fill in the Mage role.

    The Mage role was always the most difficult one, anywhere. So in my opinion casual players shouldn't play Mage/Science.

    Thats a bit of a harsh statement. I agree that Sci is not a good option for someone who doesn't want to put any effort in. That being said, you have to admit that most of the changes have caused significant rebuilds for most sci people. Having that with EVERY update gets alloying. Necessary, but annoying.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    They didn't give us nearly enough free respec tokens for the change every patch madness. That and you had to get a new deflector every 5 seconds too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    did you actually get a star trek insignia tattooed on your shoulder ?

    0_o

    .
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    Yep.

    My faith in humanity just hit an all time low.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Kanharn wrote: »
    My faith in humanity just hit an all time low.

    That's all it took? Just wait until you see where I got my Star Trek tatoo.....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Kanharn wrote: »
    My faith in humanity just hit an all time low.

    Lol.

    Trek nerdies would have to work very hard indeed for me to at least consider them "human" :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    MVS5191,

    Nice post! Reminds me of the reasons why I enjoy playing Science! :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Its a point of percieved reference for some to whine about how they don't think science is the uber-beast that they think it should be???

    It's easier to complain and blaim the Dev's/Cryptic than learn to play the class??
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    It's easier to complain and blaim the Dev's/Cryptic than learn to play the class??

    I believe the ongoing complaint is that these players did learn to play the class. Then the develpoers changed how the classes worked so they had to re-learn to play the class. Then the developers changed it again...etc.

    This can be a frustrating cycle for some.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    I

    Now it's time to pay attention to the other Escort (who has still been hammering away at the Cruiser). .

    And thats his mistake. In my opinion, he should have dropped his attacks on the cruiser and focused on you before you could cripple him. His buddy popping should've been the big hint to this.
    But I could be wrong.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Democratus wrote: »
    I believe the ongoing complaint is that these players did learn to play the class. Then the develpoers changed how the classes worked so they had to re-learn to play the class. Then the developers changed it again...etc.

    This can be a frustrating cycle for some.

    I was being rhetorical as there is nothing wrong with science and all the classes have to adapt when there are changes to gameplay. I've heard qq from all the classses in the past month or so at some point or another and while it is frustrating, crying foul without reason helps no one. I'm as guilty as the rest I imagine.

    It wasn't meant to be seriuos questions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    And thats his mistake. In my opinion, he should have dropped his attacks on the cruiser and focused on you before you could cripple him. His buddy popping should've been the big hint to this.
    But I could be wrong.

    Well, FWIW, I was thinking much the same thing. If the escorts hadn't fixated on the cruiser, this all could have played out much, much differently. This victory was not ALL about the power of Science. (Not to say that it wasn't well played by the OP. But there were other factors.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    First SNB and VM and FB pulse were tweaked amongst others
    then consoles halved,
    THEN tac and engr ships got an energy boost

    I must admit it was frustrating trying to learn to play a more complex science system, (without a good manual) and at first, not knowing what spec affected what boff skill,

    then to have all these changes create a continuin gchallenge to adapt and search for new techniques could definitely lead one to the conclusion that science was targeted by cryptic

    and as many of my attempted builds did NOT work....I definitely agree I didn't have enough re-specs to experiment with.

    I think also the presentation of one minor PVP engagement as proof of sci's greatness is a stretch, but i am a SCI/SCI and I LOVE IT.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I have been rerolling a science captain (klingon side). Only reached Captain 3, but so far I only have one thought...

    I'm pretty much the most dangerous person on any PvP map with this character. Science rocks if you have a good strategy. I may suck at higher levels, but until then I'm comfortable that Science is far from nerfed.

    That's all, move along.
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