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An NGE/Cataclysm-level Suggested Change

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
People get bored when leveling. There's been a lot of talk about streamlining the leveling process.

One thing I've noted from SWTOR is that the entire leveling process is designed to take around 20 hours (as opposed to WoW's 60 or so or STO's 80). The difference is that they want to emphasize choice. So maybe there is 80 hours worth of leveling but you just choose which 20 of it you want to play to get to the cap.

I think this is smart as it prioritizes endgame development AND choice. Leveling is basically a hazing process in the modern MMO anyway.

So here's my thought:

- Adjust the Skillpoint gains so that 1-51 is basically a very busy 20 hours of gameplay.

- Adjust the sector level ranges so that, rather than linearly going from one sector to the next, you choose which you want to level in. So instead of going from Point A to Point B, you go to whatever point you want.

- Change the ships so that, past Lieutenant, each ship is just a slightly different mechanic but all ships share a common tier.

- Adjust the skill trees so that all ship specializations share a tier.

Think about it. It expands out the universe laterally. It enhances choice. It emphasizes endgame allowing development priorities to be more focused. It also means you have maybe 60 hours of endgame content added since only a quarter of that is necessary to rank up.

I'd also suggest a shift in the rank/story structure if you're looking at a new, faction agnostic tutorial.

Levels 1-6: Commander.
Levels 7-13: Captain
Levels 14-20: Rear Admiral (Lower and Upper)
Level 21: Vice Admiral

This makes the player's ascent to admiralty more believable. Lower ranks would remain available as roleplay titles.

In terms of the new tutorial, I'd look at two possibilities:

- A Qtorial where Q has you act out the story from Nemesis to 2409 as he gets caught up on history. (The beauty being that it's faction agnostic.)

- A tutorial based on Future Imperfect (TNG) and maybe a hint of Frame of Mind (TNG) and Tabula Rasa (TNG) and The Paradise Syndrome (TOS). You're the Commander of a Starship who is hit with a weapon that causes amnesia. The captain is killed and a guide gives you a "refresher course" on how to handle a starship and an away team. The idea being that these are things your character should already know but that you take control of your character at a point when someone needs to remind them of everything, maybe culminating in an end of tutorial cinematic where your character's memories come flooding back in a cinematic covering the entirety of Trek history so far, from Zephram Cochrane through the attack on Vega Colony.
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Several off the cuff development advantages:

    - Allows endgame prioritization in development.
    - Faster leveling means more character slots sold.
    - Allows development of a full PvE leveling path for Klingons and other factions much easier, with alternate paths being something you can develop over time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Wait, STO can't be 80 hours of gameplay.

    It took me not that long to level cap in STO.

    It took me at least 4 times as long to level cap in WoW.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Some interesting ideas. We'll be looking at progression over the next few months. I really believe you're going to see something like what you're wanting from the constant addition of weekly episodes - they can be played at any level - so when there is enough of them - you can have a lot of options for leveling through the game (instead of the somewhat linear path now).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    dstahl wrote: »
    Some interesting ideas. We'll be looking at progression over the next few months. I really believe you're going to see something like what you're wanting from the constant addition of weekly episodes - they can be played at any level - so when there is enough of them - you can have a lot of options for leveling through the game (instead of the somewhat linear path now).

    I've been thinking about this, and I agree.

    If you do weekly episodes for just one year, there will be an insane amount of content for both sides.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    Wait, STO can't be 80 hours of gameplay.

    It took me not that long to level cap in STO.

    It took me at least 4 times as long to level cap in WoW.

    How much did you grind? Did you chain exploration or DSEs? Did you return to starbases to do your selling/vendoring when your bags were full?

    Also, WoW 1-60 now takes around 24 hours after 5 or 6 rounds of tuning down and streamlining and less with heirloom gear and bonus XP. Probably another 12 for each expansion. 50 hours to the cap, 3 expansions in.

    TOR is based around the idea of 20 hours to the cap but more than 20 hours of content via leveling choices and leftover content you can keep playing after hitting the cap.

    It's intended to be 80-100 hours in this game. Obviously, things didn't map out the way they anticipated people playing.

    But I think you could still condense the content down with fewer gaps and leave people with a very solid 20, with over 20 unused Federation side, focus on getting Klingons up to 20 hours of PvE content with rolling updates afterwards and make that the gold standard for launching a new faction.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    dstahl wrote: »
    Some interesting ideas. We'll be looking at progression over the next few months. I really believe you're going to see something like what you're wanting from the constant addition of weekly episodes - they can be played at any level - so when there is enough of them - you can have a lot of options for leveling through the game (instead of the somewhat linear path now).

    I agree and think that's awesome.

    I still think retuning how fast we hit the cap and then coming up with an alternative incentive for doing the other content will yield a tighter experience, more full fleet actions and STFs, prioritized development, ease of adding factions, etc.

    I'm not even sure how much tuning it would take if you just start people out at Commander with a revised tutorial like the one I suggested and then make the existing Lt and LtC missions sidekicked extra content.

    And then when you do the new tutorial, you make it faction agnostic and spit Klingons and Federation out at Commander 1.

    It sounds massive but I think it's really just a matter of adjusting the starting level and the tutorial and then making the prior content still playable through fleet content.

    It lowers the bar for a full KDF PvE leveling path as well as other factions. It results in more players and alts at endgame, which is good for selling extra character slots and services. Maybe make all Fleet Actions and STFs designed for the level cap to keep them full.

    I think the biggest shift would be in terms of ships but maybe the best option in the long run is just to flatten out the ship tiers into a single tier, with refits being defined by special powers that come at the expense of conventional stats.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    People get bored when leveling. There's been a lot of talk about streamlining the leveling process.

    One thing I've noted from SWTOR is that the entire leveling process is designed to take around 20 hours (as opposed to WoW's 60 or so or STO's 80). The difference is that they want to emphasize choice. So maybe there is 80 hours worth of leveling but you just choose which 20 of it you want to play to get to the cap.

    WHAT? People are leaving Trek because they complain its too easy to level up - if you can max your level in 20 hours people won't be staying long in TOR. So I seriously doubt Cryptic will shoot itself by making it EASIER to level up lol

    They needed more missions, and for missions to give out less experience - not less missions and more experience!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    How much did you grind? Did you chain exploration or DSEs? Did you return to starbases to do your selling/vendoring when your bags were full?

    I was pretty nonchalant about it, but have a ton of MMOPG experience so my version of casual is probably still pretty hardcore when you get right down to it. I remember focusing as much as I could on story arcs, patrols and exploration. I avoided DSE's. I felt the time was better spent doing other missions instead of waiting around in the DSE for it to respawn. Maybe my math/instincts were wrong there.
    Also, WoW 1-60 now takes around 24 hours after 5 or 6 rounds of tuning down and streamlining and less with heirloom gear and bonus XP. Probably another 12 for each expansion. 50 hours to the cap, 3 expansions in.

    Ahhhhh. This is probably the part I'm missing. I haven't played WoW in quite a long time. So the levelling grind I remember is probably different.

    Thanks for the elaboration.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    dstahl wrote: »
    Some interesting ideas. We'll be looking at progression over the next few months. I really believe you're going to see something like what you're wanting from the constant addition of weekly episodes - they can be played at any level - so when there is enough of them - you can have a lot of options for leveling through the game (instead of the somewhat linear path now).

    Thank you - I definately don't want less missions (like I said I'm a fan of more missions delivering less experience so I can have an overall longer experience and more content to see) and adding missions that will allow players to start CHOOSING between missions instead of forcing people down a path will ROCK and that will definately help keep people interested and staying in STO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Thank you - I definately don't want less missions (like I said I'm a fan of more missions delivering less experience so I can have an overall longer experience and more content to see) and adding missions that will allow players to start CHOOSING between missions instead of forcing people down a path will ROCK and that will definately help keep people interested and staying in STO.

    Maybe I wasn't entirely clear but I think you could well tune down experience per mission if you start people at Commander.

    The point is NOT less missions in the game. The point is adjusting the bar so that you start with more missions than you know what to do with and more of your time is spent at the level cap, which you get to lightning fast, with a ton of leftover missions... To encourage grouping. It puts people on the same plateau much faster and more efficiently.

    Leveling, IMHO, should both be a short process (the real game begins at endgame and it makes casual grouping more likely) and one in which you have far more missions than you need to level up. And needing fewer missions to level up but also tuning down SP so you need a few more per level both makes leveling more meaningful and does it while making a leveling path for future factions easier to develop than it is at present.

    Roughly, what I'm suggesting is:

    Cut Skill Point gains by maybe 20% (some more, some less) but also cut 20 levels out of the game while rolling those missions into the Commander-Vice Admiral set of options for leveling. Instead of "go here when you're level X", you go wherever you want. Instead of the linear "Super Mario Bros." approach, think "Duck Tales" or "Mega Man" where you pick a sector to level in... and there are more sectors than you actually need to level up and you're still doing loads of unfinished story content at the cap between Fleet Actions and STFs.

    I'm not saying to get rid of lower level missions or to increase SP per mission (if anything I'd decrease them slightly) but I am saying to bunch up the progression more in several respects and bunch up endgame in a way that everyone is the same rank while at radically different points in terms of storyline progression in each sector.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Getting to endgame should be just as important as endgame. After all, it is the journey that counts not the destination. Would be interesting to level to the max by just facing one empire instead of facing all four (Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Borg). I would like to see more methods of getting to the max level like combat, exploration, pvp, and diplomacy. That way people could pick one or two methods to level that they like and ignore the stuff they don't like. If I like diplomacy and exploration, but despise combat and pvp, then I should be able to ignore combat and pvp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    In that case, maybe the rank system should be revised in a different way. Instead of starting at commander after the tutorial and quickly leveling up to Admiral, why not start at Ensign (like we do now) then quickly level up to Captain, and ditch Admiral altogether. There are way too many Admirals in this game, and if you watch Star Trek, you see that all the real action happens at the Captain level, anyway.

    If the leveling process is treated as more of an extended tutorial, where you learn the ins and outs of the game, instead of a huge hurdle that must be overcome (much like in other mmo's), then content can be more easily enjoyed for what it is, than as a way to level your character.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I realy dont like that idea...

    I dont want to play 20 hours and be at max level only to do the very same content after that.

    20 hours is NOTHING for an MMO.


    I want to keep gaining abilities and items and find usefull loot FOR MONTHS ! Because that is what i pay for.

    If SWTOR is done after 20 hrs... then people will have multiple maxed out chars by the end of the first free month and quit TOR just like STO whining that there is no enough content.

    ***

    The ranks in STO are allready stupid. Vice Admiral? realy?
    If you remake them like this then the highest you should go is CAPTAIN, and only if you are the leader of a Fleet you get the Fleet Admiral Rank as Title.

    By this rate in 1 Year or 5 more Seasons we will all be President of the Federation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    by the way they said 200 hours per class

    not 20
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Dont like this idea personally. I dot see the point in having levels at all if you're just going to burn through them quickly. MMOs are supposed to take lots of time. If you want a quick game, play Halo or something.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    by the way they said 200 hours per class

    not 20

    I bet that only happens when you read every text and hear every voice over to the end. Which 90% of the people won't do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Hornet331 wrote: »
    I bet that only happens when you read every text and hear every voice over to the end. Which 90% of the people won't do.

    the major attraction of the bioware games has always been the story, many will skip them but i doubt it would be anywhere like 90% but thats neither here nor there.

    im sure that 200 hours has taken the voice overs and cut scenes into account. if people want to skip them then the game will be much much shorter.

    but i believe the 80 hours it takes to level a sto character also assumes you read the dialogue as its possible to level a character in a much shorter time if you skip the text, where if you take your time and read the missions then 80 hours is a fairly accurate figure.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Maybe I wasn't entirely clear but I think you could well tune down experience per mission if you start people at Commander.

    The point is NOT less missions in the game. The point is adjusting the bar so that you start with more missions than you know what to do with and more of your time is spent at the level cap, which you get to lightning fast, with a ton of leftover missions... To encourage grouping. It puts people on the same plateau much faster and more efficiently.

    Leveling, IMHO, should both be a short process (the real game begins at endgame and it makes casual grouping more likely) and one in which you have far more missions than you need to level up. And needing fewer missions to level up but also tuning down SP so you need a few more per level both makes leveling more meaningful and does it while making a leveling path for future factions easier to develop than it is at present.

    Roughly, what I'm suggesting is:

    Cut Skill Point gains by maybe 20% (some more, some less) but also cut 20 levels out of the game while rolling those missions into the Commander-Vice Admiral set of options for leveling. Instead of "go here when you're level X", you go wherever you want. Instead of the linear "Super Mario Bros." approach, think "Duck Tales" or "Mega Man" where you pick a sector to level in... and there are more sectors than you actually need to level up and you're still doing loads of unfinished story content at the cap between Fleet Actions and STFs.

    I'm not saying to get rid of lower level missions or to increase SP per mission (if anything I'd decrease them slightly) but I am saying to bunch up the progression more in several respects and bunch up endgame in a way that everyone is the same rank while at radically different points in terms of storyline progression in each sector.

    I am a little diffrent to you, to me its all about the leveling, I enjoy leveling! It gives me a goal to aim for and once I reach that goal then I start over. Im a casual gamer... I dont find "end game" stuff fun... raids are good the first time..... maybe the second time too but once you hit the 10th+ it gets boring... PvP is ok for people that like PvP... but I dont like it.

    The ammount of missions needs to be increased to double..... tripple to what there are now, it needs to take a lot longer to level up because in my opinion.... the leveling is the game and the "end game" is just that.. the end of the game. If it took 200 missions to level a character and there was 200 missions still to do... I would do the 200 I have not done on a new character, the missions would have to be like the proposed episodes.. you would be able to play them at any level.

    So you do have a good idea for you and people like you...... but its not good for me.... or anyone like me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    WHAT? People are leaving Trek because they complain its too easy to level up - if you can max your level in 20 hours people won't be staying long in TOR. So I seriously doubt Cryptic will shoot itself by making it EASIER to level up lol

    They needed more missions, and for missions to give out less experience - not less missions and more experience!

    Frankly, I'm glad that TOR is reducing the leveling process... Technically, if an MMO is supposed to truly begin when a player has reached level cap, then why should it take an excessively long time before players can jump into the real gameplay?

    The thing with TOR is their focus on driving character advancement via story progression. And last I heard, there are 200 hours of story per faction. It may take 20 hours to max base stats, but the story will lead to progression of its own. And that doesn't include the galactic story missions which from what I gather are geared towards all players of all classes in both factions. these would consist of the big heroic events, I assume.

    SWTOR will launch with more content than all of BioWare's games combined. At least, that's what BioWare is telling us.

    STO just needs to focus on content development above all else. And not C-store fluff items. They manage to turn those out an an alarming rate. And yet it takes FOREVER to get new gameplay content. They need to step it up. And it needs to have a 2:1 ratio, favorin the Klingon faction until they can bring the content into qualitative and quantitative balance between factions
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    omg my STO character was the easiest i have ever leveled in any mmorpg and i had great fun doing it too , the storyline missions where fun ! .its the end game that STO sorely missing , me id like territory control areas and that dosent automaticley have to = pvp . Raiding is done in every other mmo and id like something differant in this =p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    While I'm not sure I like the idea of levelling faster, I do like the OP's idea of having more control over what you do and where you go as you level, and having far more missions than what you need is, IMHO, crucial for replayability.

    I'm not sure how well the weekly episodes will answer this, though. Personally, I like story arcs, and I'm not sure how the apparently semi-random nature of weekly episodes will cut it. It'd be great if a later episode is somehow tied into an earlier one, and if you have to have done the early one to unlock the later, but even if that's the plan I don't see it coming to fruition soon.

    As far as promotions and ship upgrades go, I might go a little farther and divorce both from level completely - make each cost a big chunk of merits/honor instead. I'd also make skills independent of rank (but dependent on the number of skill points you've already spent). Finally, I'd love to see a flexible "refit" option for ships as an alternative to getting a new promotion or commission, so that you can keep flying your ship for a few "tiers" after you get it.

    Well, ok, maybe that wasn't so much taking it farther as suggesting barebones mechanics for how it might work. Whatever. My coffee's ready.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I'd just like some cinematics in some future missions. I'd also say add them to the current STF's, but I can't seem to enjoy the whole STF. It just takes to long. Why are there so many enemies? ....ok, the Borg zerg, but what aboy terradrome? far to many Undine.

    I spose i may have put this in the wrong thread, but I think this is related to somewhat to the OP.

    but specific to the OP:

    I don;t believe cutting out ranks and levels is the answer. Sorry, but to me and some others, leveling is half the fun. If anything they should add more ranks (like commodore). I do kinda like your ship tier idea, but atm i think that would require a lot of time and effort.

    Also, one ship isn't equal to another. The tiers, in my mind, represent roles for the types of ships. Low end escorts escort freighters and civilians. High end escorts escort the high end cruisers. That kind of thing. It sounds nice and fluffy to have all ships available at liuetenant, but I don't see the need nor the sense in it. (except for the new T5 ships being unlocked at VA1 for some odd reason)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    dstahl wrote: »
    Some interesting ideas. We'll be looking at progression over the next few months. I really believe you're going to see something like what you're wanting from the constant addition of weekly episodes - they can be played at any level - so when there is enough of them - you can have a lot of options for leveling through the game (instead of the somewhat linear path now).

    I was thinking about the "any level" thing. I'm wondering, are the weekly episodes going to have any story in them, or require you to complete one before doing another? I was thinking it'd be cool for the weeky episodes to have an over arching story themselves, and to an extent need prior missions finished before moving on.

    Also, since we're on mission, some of the missions currently in-game, seem to have an order they should be done in that makes the context of the missions understandable, but they also only seem to be unlocked by leveling. Maybe they should also have a required mission done, before its unlocked.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Lol NGE killed SWG, yeah lets suggest something like that in STO....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    It sounds nice and fluffy to have all ships available at liuetenant, but I don't see the need nor the sense in it. (except for the new T5 ships being unlocked at VA1 for some odd reason)
    I'm not entirely sure that the OP was advocating unlocking upper-tier ships for Lieutenants. What I took out of it was the idea of making lower-tier ships useful beyond their tier. I know I'd be fine with having to gain rank to unlock the upper-tier ships.

    Your point about ship roles is well-taken, and I almost agree. But take the Miranda - as a "light" cruiser, it has a higher turn rate than any other cruiser, but loses out on hull points. I can easily see an upgraded Miranda serving a role that's intermediary between the Tier 2 Cruisers and Escorts - more offense-oriented than the Cruiser or Science ships, but focusing on smaller, numerous targets while the Escorts play shark with bigger prey. Not too dissimilar from current-day Destroyers.

    Other ship refits would be straightforward - just give 'em the higher tier stats while keeping the same skin (or, better yet, give players a range of "refit" options so we can create our own hybrids). But I'd be tempted to limit ships to no more than two "tier" upgrades, both to preserve the sense of ship roles you referred to, and to give the sense of your captain advancing in his/her/its career.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The NGE isn't a good example of this Leviathan99, you could hit max level in the CU SWG in two or three days. An NGE like change to STO would be removing all the Federation ships except for the Constitution, Defiant, Galaxy and Intrepid while claiming it was good because they are the most iconic and Star Trekie! ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    - A Qtorial where Q has you act out the story from Nemesis to 2409 as he gets caught up on history. (The beauty being that it's faction agnostic.)

    But Nemesis was without a doubt the worst Trek movie ever made as far as story and plotholes!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Kolikos wrote:
    I'm not entirely sure that the OP was advocating unlocking upper-tier ships for Lieutenants. What I took out of it was the idea of making lower-tier ships useful beyond their tier. I know I'd be fine with having to gain rank to unlock the upper-tier ships.

    Your point about ship roles is well-taken, and I almost agree. But take the Miranda - as a "light" cruiser, it has a higher turn rate than any other cruiser, but loses out on hull points. I can easily see an upgraded Miranda serving a role that's intermediary between the Tier 2 Cruisers and Escorts - more offense-oriented than the Cruiser or Science ships, but focusing on smaller, numerous targets while the Escorts play shark with bigger prey. Not too dissimilar from current-day Destroyers.

    Other ship refits would be straightforward - just give 'em the higher tier stats while keeping the same skin (or, better yet, give players a range of "refit" options so we can create our own hybrids). But I'd be tempted to limit ships to no more than two "tier" upgrades, both to preserve the sense of ship roles you referred to, and to give the sense of your captain advancing in his/her/its career.

    I could go with that :D

    I don't like the idea of having T5 Mirandas. It just isn't gonna work. Their one of the smallest ships, and one of the oldest designs. They should be cannon fodder in a fleet engagement, lol.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The NGE isn't a good example of this Leviathan99, you could hit max level in the CU SWG in two or three days. An NGE like change to STO would be removing all the Federation ships except for the Constitution, Defiant, Galaxy and Intrepid while claiming it was good because they are the most iconic and Star Trekie! ;)

    This made me chuckle :) Because its so true lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Lol NGE killed SWG, yeah lets suggest something like that in STO....

    Actually, the CU killed SWG. The NGE just tried to play "Weekend at Bernie's" with the corpse.
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