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Total Recall! I mean refit...

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
It sounds (from this post http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=2877215#post2877215) that they are stopping new ship creation in favor of sharpening what they have already created, why not take the time to refit every ship to tier 5 while the graphic gurus are busy with this? Both Fed and Klingon? As the arguement for the Galaxy - X from Riker was that a Admiral does have privaledges....

Pros? Cons?
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Creovex wrote: »
    It sounds (from this post http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=2877215#post2877215) that they are stopping new ship creation in favor of sharpening what they have already created, why not take the time to refit every ship to tier 5 while the graphic gurus are busy with this? Both Fed and Klingon? As the arguement for the Galaxy - X from Riker was that a Admiral does have privaledges....

    Pros? Cons?

    This is a complicated matter.. A Miranda obviously can't match an Emissary, but if we allow people to choose their favorite ships to become T5, then the Miranda MUST be allowed.


    Furthermore, i'm scared of that movie.. had nightmares with those bugging eyes and tongues. Damn you!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Pros? Have you SEEN how sexy the updates to the models have been? CapnLogan and gang have done a fantastic job of getting what we have up to snuff, and I for one am looking forward to seeing more screen-accurate ships. I'm of the mentality that we should fix what we have first then add more later. It's going to be a hell of a lot tougher to go back and update all of the work they did. I only see this as a positive - maybe because they have my favorite ships in the game already.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~GM Tiyshen
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Pros? Have you SEEN how sexy the updates to the models have been? CapnLogan and gang have done a fantastic job of getting what we have up to snuff, and I for one am looking forward to seeing more screen-accurate ships. I'm of the mentality that we should fix what we have first then add more later. It's going to be a hell of a lot tougher to go back and update all of the work they did. I only see this as a positive - maybe because they have my favorite ships in the game already.

    Thats fine, but doing refits, does not require to take away CapnLogans or Mr. M's time either. Let them work on cleaning up the models and maybe tweaking new refits as well. I mean a tier 5 akira would have what, a squadron aboard? That requires no graphic changes...
    Because it's a stupid idea. A Connie should never be a match for a Sovereign. A Nova should never be a match for a Luna. The list goes on.

    Some ships should be refit. Not all up to tier 5. Akira to tier 5 (since it's already mis-tiered). Some can go up a tier. NOT all to tier 5.

    I never said they had to be a match, just crank them up a little, give them some unique stuff like Starfleet Commander gave them. And calling something stupid isn't exactly constructive...

    K'tinga tier 5 = awesome...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~GM Tiyshen
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    K'tinga tier 5 = stupid. It should already be on the same tier as the Connie (but sadly, like the Akira they mis-tiered it). It's an old ship. There's just no way.

    I can barely think up reasons to tier up a Vor'cha to tier 5 beyond the fact that it was often compared to the Galaxy and that's getting a tier 5 version. Still the thought of a Vor'cha being in the same tier as a Negh'var is somewhat... meh.

    A K'tinga in Tier 5 would be a joke. The symbol of all things wrong with the tiers. We might as well put a Type-II shuttle craft in Tier 5.



    Also saying something is stupid might not be the most constructive thing in the world but it doesn't mean it's not true. ;)

    Get rid of the tier system all together. Since it takes no time to get to the end game as everyone says, get rid of it and make everything max level, give each ship unique traits that stick out and people will pick what they like and use. At least maybe we will see more of a fleet feel at the top then a club of new ships sitting there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Because it's a stupid idea. A Connie should never be a match for a Sovereign. A Nova should never be a match for a Luna. The list goes on.

    Some ships should be refit. Not all up to tier 5. Akira to tier 5 (since it's already mis-tiered). Some can go up a tier. NOT all to tier 5.

    Have you ever seen DS9? If that little fighter thing can do the damage it does, there's no excuse for every ship larger than it to not be allowed to do the same. If you don't like it, fine. Fly whatever YOU want, but don't force everyone to conform to your ideals.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    TUX426 wrote: »
    Have you ever seen DS9? If that little fighter thing can do the damage it does, there's no excuse for every ship larger than it to not be allowed to do the same. If you don't like it, fine. Fly whatever YOU want, but don't force everyone to conform to your ideals.

    that's right !

    you should all conform to MY ideals instead.

    yessss.... yessss.... we are coming along nicely now Igor......


    .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ideally PvE missions would autobalance compared to what ship you have so you didn't have to change. So if you go in with a Connie, Sovereign, Galaxy and Akira you'd see a slightly different game (it would be harder for the Connie but I think that would be fun).

    As for PvP... Every time I suggest it it's shot down. But I think there should be a PvP mode where you're assigned a tier at random right before the battle starts then you fly a ship of that tier. This would give crazy mixed fleet battles.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I do not think the arguement for allowing T1-T4 ships to have the same BO slots, hull, shields and weapons of the T5 counterparts to make them clones but rather to take some of these aspects in order to make them competitive.

    For example a Miranda wouldn't take on a Sovereign and match them in guns, shields hull etc....but why not allow the miranda to have additional BO slots so that it can use skills beyond ensign level in order to compete?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    that's right !

    you should all conform to MY ideals instead.

    yessss.... yessss.... we are coming along nicely now my master......


    .
    corrected, igor was the one with the lisp....

    BACK ON SUBJECT!!!
    Kyias wrote: »
    I do not think the arguement for allowing T1-T4 ships to have the same BO slots, hull, shields and weapons of the T5 counterparts to make them clones but rather to take some of these aspects in order to make them competitive.

    For example a Miranda wouldn't take on a Sovereign and match them in guns, shields hull etc....but why not allow the miranda to have additional BO slots so that it can use skills beyond ensign level in order to compete?

    Good idea.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    that's right !

    you should all conform to MY ideals instead.

    yessss.... yessss.... we are coming along nicely now Igor......


    .

    Nor yours ;)

    Freedom and choice in MMOs is essential. Restricting choices is obviously necessary for certain things, but not something as simple or key as what ship you fly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    TUX426 wrote: »
    Have you ever seen DS9? If that little fighter thing can do the damage it does, there's no excuse for every ship larger than it to not be allowed to do the same. If you don't like it, fine. Fly whatever YOU want, but don't force everyone to conform to your ideals.

    Currently in game lower tiers CAN damage higher tiered ships. They probably won't win.

    This is the same with DS9. Those little fighters had good firepower however they also had a LOT OF SUPPORT. If you took those fighers and solo'd them against a ship they'd explode lol. And there were a lot of fighters. I think 3 or 5 in that one scene where they started shooting stuff up.

    Plus in DS9 shields didn't exist for some reason. ;)



    Anyways I'd love to somehow see MIXED FLEET PVP.


    I'd ALSO LOVE to see some way to make lower tiers more viable in PvE like autobalancing the instances. Something. I'm not all about abandoning the lower tiers. Just making them equal or near equal to current tier 5 ships is ridiculous.



    Think up a different way to see your lovely lower tiers become viable. Be creative. There's other things beyond combat balance. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Creovex wrote: »
    Thats fine, but doing refits, does not require to take away CapnLogans or Mr. M's time either. Let them work on cleaning up the models and maybe tweaking new refits as well. I mean a tier 5 akira would have what, a squadron aboard? That requires no graphic changes...

    The whole reason there are three retrofits instead of one is CapnLogan took time out to work on them. The whole reason the Galaxy X exists is because CapnLogan was working on model tweaks for the Galaxy for the retrofit.

    Retrofits and Refits and anything involving ships in that manner will, because of his job description, involve CapnLogan and his time. Or his team's time.

    So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. For there to be more retrofits, the models have to be worked on by that team. Your example of a T5 Akira ... it would require time making tweaks to the model, just like the other retrofits. It's part of their process.

    And I would think you'd be in favor of that anyways. As any retrofit KDF ships would get a model update. Which some of those ships really need.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I think a setup similar to what the squad system does would be fine. It allows lower tiered ships to compete, but doesn't grant them access to any advanced abilities or bridge officer slots.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    The whole reason there are three retrofits instead of one is CapnLogan took time out to work on them. The whole reason the Galaxy X exists is because CapnLogan was working on model tweaks for the Galaxy for the retrofit.

    Retrofits and Refits and anything involving ships in that manner will, because of his job description, involve CapnLogan and his time. Or his team's time.

    So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. For there to be more retrofits, the models have to be worked on by that team. Your example of a T5 Akira ... it would require time making tweaks to the model, just like the other retrofits. It's part of their process.

    And I would think you'd be in favor of that anyways. As any retrofit KDF ships would get a model update. Which some of those ships really need.

    They are already working on redoing the models, why not combine tasks. Rather then walking away from it. And the refits do not all require remaking a model. The akira can look exactly the same, just with some more BOs, a unique ability (launch fighers or what not), that would not require the model guys. (as the example)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I read some where on this forum the idea that each pvp match should have to have a certain number of each tier of ship and I think that would be a decent idea allowing different ships. I wish they would balance the ships as close to how they were supposed to be in the show and maybe allow a upgrade one tier but as others have said a Miranda should never be a match for a sovereign. In the end however we can only blame our selves for everyone flying the same ship in pvp since every one wants to be the strongest rather than just flying what they like the looks of.

    The only thing they really need to change in my view is make it so lower tiered ships can do high lvl missions in pve. Maybe base the enemy on the ship one is flying except in fleet actions of course.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Creovex wrote: »
    They are already working on redoing the models, why not combine tasks.

    Wait, now I'm really confused. They are working on tweaking models, yes. And they are working on some KDF retrofits. So I thought they were going to be combining the tasks?

    That's pretty much the point right? Tweak the Vor'Cha or the K'Tinga and toss in some retrofit awesomeness while they're at it?

    I mean, I thought they were already planning to do more than just add Gorn and Nausicaan and Orion ships to the line. I thought they were going to do some KDF Retrofits?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Creovex wrote: »
    They are already working on redoing the models, why not combine tasks. Rather then walking away from it. And the refits do not all require remaking a model. The akira can look exactly the same, just with some more BOs, a unique ability (launch fighers or what not), that would not require the model guys. (as the example)

    It would be nice if all the ships could get special abilitys to make them unique based on what they could do in the show. I could maybe see another officer slot as long as they didn't change the hull strength or things like that that they couldn't do with ships in real life.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Because it's a stupid idea. A Connie should never be a match for a Sovereign. A Nova should never be a match for a Luna. The list goes on.

    why, its just a tin can hull, so to speak....

    Why not gut them and jam the insides with cool new tech for the admiral?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Fiorra wrote:
    I read some where on this forum the idea that each pvp match should have to have a certain number of each tier of ship and I think that would be a decent idea allowing different ships. I wish they would balance the ships as close to how they were supposed to be in the show and maybe allow a upgrade one tier but as others have said a Miranda should never be a match for a sovereign. In the end however we can only blame our selves for everyone flying the same ship in pvp since every one wants to be the strongest rather than just flying what they like the looks of.

    The only thing they really need to change in my view is make it so lower tiered ships can do high lvl missions in pve. Maybe base the enemy on the ship one is flying except in fleet actions of course.

    This is a bit off-topic ... but ...

    They already do have the technology to include lower tier ships in Events and PVE content. They don't use it here. But in Champions Online, they have adjusted their holiday events and some of their outdoor events in a way that a level 10 and a level 35 can basically compete or assist each other in meaningful way. I believe they made the specific combat elements percentage based and level banded that. So like my level 10's lightning attack would do a scaled percentage that is on par with the level 35's gigabolt.

    They can adjust that to work in STO. It may require some coding magic to make it fit and be functional in PVP.

    BUT, they could certainly apply this to fleet actions and get rid of level banding in those and bring back the sense of community this game had that first month when everyone was in an FA having fun together.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Diluant wrote:
    why, its just a tin can hull, so to speak....

    Why not gut them and jam the insides with cool new tech for the admiral?

    That's pretty much how it's supposed to be if you go by the STO Timeline or the Novel. Captains have the new modular designed ship technology from the Starfleet Corps of Engineers. So your description is spot on. It's just the hull that looks like a constitution. Inside, it's much different.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    This is a bit off-topic ... but ...

    They already do have the technology to include lower tier ships in Events and PVE content. They don't use it here. But in Champions Online, they have adjusted their holiday events and some of their outdoor events in a way that a level 10 and a level 35 can basically compete or assist each other in meaningful way. I believe they made the specific combat elements percentage based and level banded that. So like my level 10's lightning attack would do a scaled percentage that is on par with the level 35's gigabolt.

    They can adjust that to work in STO. It may require some coding magic to make it fit and be functional in PVP.

    BUT, they could certainly apply this to fleet actions and get rid of level banding in those and bring back the sense of community this game had that first month when everyone was in an FA having fun together.

    Good point and post. I think this would be a good start.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    K'tinga tier 5 = stupid. It should already be on the same tier as the Connie (but sadly, like the Akira they mis-tiered it). It's an old ship. There's just no way.

    I can barely think up reasons to tier up a Vor'cha to tier 5 beyond the fact that it was often compared to the Galaxy and that's getting a tier 5 version. Still the thought of a Vor'cha being in the same tier as a Negh'var is somewhat... meh.

    A K'tinga in Tier 5 would be a joke. The symbol of all things wrong with the tiers. We might as well put a Type-II shuttle craft in Tier 5.



    Also saying something is stupid might not be the most constructive thing in the world but it doesn't mean it's not true. ;)

    All this drivel and you still think the Akira is good for T5? Boy do you need to learn some of the ST lore. The Akira is correctly placed in STO. This is not SFC3 where that ship had major advantages with the final patch. Do some research and find out just what the Akira is capable of compared to a Nebula, now look to find why the feds developed the Neb... It was in responce to the Vor'cha so if they're gonna make a t5 neb then there had better be a t5 Vor'cha. Leave the Akira where it belongs, low tier.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Creovex wrote: »
    Get rid of the tier system all together. Since it takes no time to get to the end game as everyone says, get rid of it and make everything max level, give each ship unique traits that stick out and people will pick what they like and use. At least maybe we will see more of a fleet feel at the top then a club of new ships sitting there.

    This is the way it should have been from the start.

    I am very much in favor of eliminating the Tiers altogether.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    ELITE-Kaos wrote: »
    All this drivel and you still think the Akira is good for T5? Boy do you need to learn some of the ST lore. The Akira is correctly placed in STO. This is not SFC3 where that ship had major advantages with the final patch. Do some research and find out just what the Akira is capable of compared to a Nebula, now look to find why the feds developed the Neb... It was in responce to the Vor'cha so if they're gonna make a t5 neb then there had better be a t5 Vor'cha. Leave the Akira where it belongs, low tier.

    All this drivel and you still think Akira isn't good for T5? Boy do you need to learn some of the ST lore. The Akira is incorrectly placed in STO (along with much of the ships). This is not SFC3 which I've personally never played. Do some research and find out just what the Akira is capable of compared ot the Nebula, now look to find why the feds developed the Neb. It was in response to the Vor'cha so if they're gonna make a t5 neb then there had better be a t5 Vor'cha. Put the Akira at T5 where it belongs, a higher tier.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    This is the way it should have been from the start.

    I am very much in favor of eliminating the Tiers altogether.

    The last game I remember that eliminated core game mechanics and basically went back to the drawing board was Star Wars Galaxies. That didn't go over too well.

    I find that no matter how much you or I or anyone thinks X, Y or Z should have been different "from the start" ... that once a game is launched, it's healthier for the game to evolve from the core that's already in place. Changes are easier to make that way. And they won't alienate a large number of players. (You might not like the tier system, but a lot of players are used to it by now and would have issues with it being revamped completely).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Size matters. It's not like they fill big ships with nothing but TRIBBLE tech. Then fill the tiny ships with all the amazing tech.

    If you mention the Defiant, it's simply the exception to the rule.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    If you mention the Defiant, it's simply the exception to the rule.

    When the Defiant first launched, it might have been the exception to the rule.

    However, 30 years later, with the Starfleet Corps of Engineers being directed by the man who was Chief Engineer aboard the Defiant, the "norm" could very easily lean towards the Defiant.

    In that, I mean the Defiant proved that with the equipment it had outfitted, it could go toe to toe with a cruiser. So 30 years later, it would be logical to assume that the SCE would take the success that was the Defiant, and apply the lessons learned as well as the smaller, more compact systems and equipment, and use that to bolster the power and capability of other small ships in the fleet.

    There are no smaller fleet ships than the Defiant. So, your room for equipment only expands as your ship size increases.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The Enterprise D ... the galaxy ... had what, 42 decks? And a larger crew and much larger amount of people on board compared to ...

    The Enterprsie E ... the sovereign ... which had only 24 decks. Was slightly longer than the Galaxy, but housed less crew and people and was generally not as large a mass in space.

    But the E hits harder than the D.

    :)
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